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Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

  1. #196
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I am surprised you take the Preterist view of these things.
    Then you should be extra surprised that I don't hold preterist views of the OD...which should have been clear by everything I said about it.

    No single living person will see ALL these things.
    Christ said a single generation would see all of them.


    Further it is abundantly clear to anyone that Jerusalem was trampled by the Gentiles from 70 AD until the present.


    Finally don't confuse what is noted in Matt 24 with Luke 21, as Luke also notes part of Matt 24 in Luke 17.
    The OD is the same, and the time timeframe in all of those gospels.


    A Preterist basically argues Luke 21 and then says, so Matt 24 is in the past.
    A Futurist basically argues Matt 24 and then says, so Luke 21 is in the future.
    They are all future events. All speak of what happens in the GT when the AC rules the world and hands out the mark of the beast and it all ends when Jesus returns.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #197
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by BaptistBibleBeliever View Post
    There is the rapture of the church which , but now, consider this passage . . .

    "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:9-14).

    They are all in heaven . . . how did they get there? Can we not say that they too, were raptured from their present distress? Can we not say that Enoch, who was translated, was raptured?
    No, you cannot say it means the Church is raptured prior to the time of "great tribulation" using Enoch as a type.

    Enoch was removed prior to the flood of Noah's day. Noah and 8 souls were the only faithful souls left and rode out the flood. God even 'sealed' Noah and his family inside the ark. The way that fits for the end is how Noah was patient in building the ark, obeying God's command. That serves as an example for us to prepare in Christ for His coming to gather the Church after the flood (i.e., after the tribulation at the end). The flood of Noah's day represents the time of "great tribulation". The ark was upon the flood waters for 150 days. Per old Hebrew reckoning of 30 days for a month, that equals the "five months" that the deceived will be stung by the locusts of Revelation 9. This is why Jesus gave us this comparison with the flood of Noah's day at the end of Revelation 12, where waters as a flood come out of the serpent's mouth after the symbolic woman (Christ's Church).

  3. #198

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    But it's telling that you don't respond to my claim about the "Day of the Lord" in the KJV Bible!
    And what claim would that be? Must a missed it.

  4. #199

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Many claim that the church is not mentioned after a certain point in the book of Revelations. They say you wont find the church mentioned is because they were raptured. Can any of you Rapturist explain. Is that true?

  5. #200
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Then you should be extra surprised that I don't hold preterist views of the OD...which should have been clear by everything I said about it.
    Your understanding of "This generation" is IDENTICAL to a Preterists understanding.
    They are wrong, and so are you.

    Christ said a single generation would see all of them.
    Nope. He said "this generation" which IF applied to a single person living at any time in history would NOT be true.
    You need to understand what generation means, and the usage here is about the genes of the Jews.

    Further it is abundantly clear to anyone that Jerusalem was trampled by the Gentiles from 70 AD until the present.
    Exactly, yet this is PART of the what "this generation" would see.

    The OD is the same, and the time timeframe in all of those gospels.
    Nope. Matthew speaks of the Goseple being preached throughout the world and then the GT.
    However Luke 21 does NOT speak of that. In it Luke notes about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
    However Luke DOES make reference to the latter GT in Luke 17.

    They are all future events. All speak of what happens in the GT when the AC rules the world and hands out the mark of the beast and it all ends when Jesus returns.
    Incorrect. Luke 21 speaks a lot about 70 AD. BOTH Matt and Luke speak about the time BEFORE the GT as well.

  6. #201
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Your understanding of "This generation" is IDENTICAL to a Preterists understanding.
    They are wrong, and so are you.
    They believe it was a past generation, I believe it is a future one. What exactly is your definition of "identical"?



    Nope. He said "this generation" which IF applied to a single person living at any time in history would NOT be true.
    You need to understand what generation means, and the usage here is about the genes of the Jews.
    The OD is about the great trib persecution of Christians, not Jews.


    G1074
    γενεά
    genea
    ghen-eh-ah'
    From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

    He's talking about an age, a period of time where the people alive will witness the OD events.




    Nope. Matthew speaks of the Goseple being preached throughout the world and then the GT.
    However Luke 21 does NOT speak of that.
    So? No two passages are the same anyways. Some contain some details others do not. But to say one is different than the others is incorrect. All the OD are the same and none speak of Ad 70. They speak of the GT which ends with the second coming. That is also found in Rev 11 and 13 as it is the same exact timeframe.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #202
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They believe it was a past generation, I believe it is a future one. What exactly is your definition of "identical"?
    What is identical is that they believe that the phrase "this generation" means a single period of time which lasts the lifetime of an individual, during which ALL these things occur.

    The OD is about the great trib persecution of Christians, not Jews.
    Incorrect. It IS about the GT of Christians but it is also about the GD of the Jews. And a lot more.


    G1074
    γενεά
    genea
    ghen-eh-ah'
    From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

    He's talking about an age, a period of time where the people alive will witness the OD events.
    Nope, He is not talking about a 40 (or 70) year period of time. It is the usage as a nation which is in view.

    So? No two passages are the same anyways. Some contain some details others do not. But to say one is different than the others is incorrect. All the OD are the same and none speak of Ad 70. They speak of the GT which ends with the second coming. That is also found in Rev 11 and 13 as it is the same exact timeframe.
    Of course, yet the timing shown WITHIN each part is different.
    One occurs BEFORE the gospel is preached to the ends of the earth, the other is shown as happening AFTER the gospel is preached to the ends of the earth. Therefore it is speaking of TWO separate disasters coming on Jerusalem.
    Rev 11 you may notice, the whole of Jerusalem is NOT being trampled, further you may have noticed that this is the final week before Jesus returns. Therefore Rev 11 connects with Matt 24 but NOT Luke 21.

  8. #203
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    And what claim would that be? Must a missed it.
    In posts #152 and #169 I discuss how the Day of the Lord has a more generic meaning than you seemed to indicate. Your belief was that it *always* refers to the Day of Christ's Return, whereas my claim was that it is expressed a number of times in different historical contexts. God comes on one day to do this, and God comes on another day to do that. These are all "days of the Lord." The Day of the Lord thus does not always refer to Christ's Return.

    The claim that I made is that on the Day one will be taken, and one left, we are referring to the 1st Jewish War with the Romans, in which some Jews were taken away in exile, while others were left in their land. The Romans would gather like eagles to a corpse, to bring judgment against Jerusalem, and on that Day of the Lord the Jews would suffer punishment. The Disciples, who were not being judged, were told by Jesus to watch out for that Day.

    That Day was being compared, by Jesus, to the Day of his Coming. So we have 2 Days of the Lord, and not just one. The Days are being compared, and treated as if one.

    Instead of responding to my claim, you made an issue out of things like what Bible Version is being used. I insisted that the KJV or the NIV translated the passage the same way.

    Then you began to equate the NIV to Mormonism, which is way off track. And you never responded to the point that the Day of the Lord does *not* always refer to Christ's Coming. As I point out, it can refer to the invasion of ancient Babylon in 586 BC, or it can refer to the expectation of the Jewish believers in the time right before the Roman invasion in 66 AD.

    But here you are, in post #198 inquiring about it? You'll have to back up and research, friend!

  9. #204
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Many claim that the church is not mentioned after a certain point in the book of Revelations. They say you wont find the church mentioned is because they were raptured. Can any of you Rapturist explain. Is that true?
    I'm Postrib, and I've heard this for years. Because the word "church" is not used after Rev 3 it is thought that John's "rapture" to heaven signified the time when the Church exits to heaven, leaving only the "Tribulation Saints" on earth. Thus, after Rev 3 the Church on earth is no longer referred to, but the Tribulation Saints are.

    There are so many things wrong with this. To use the lack of a particular word as a theological point is itself suspect. True doctrine must be *spelled out,* and not just assumed by the omission of certain words! Even worse, the Revelation begins as an explicit message to the Church. Further, the use of words depicting Tribulation Saints is inferring the Church inasmuch as we are in the NT era. And to infer from John's "rapture" to heaven that this is symbolic of the Church is an assumption, and not theology. The whole idea of the Church "missing" on earth during the "Tribulation Era" is thus unfounded and the very thing we are warned about doing in the Revelation--to *not* add to the Revelation, nor subtract from it.

  10. #205
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They believe it was a past generation, I believe it is a future one. What exactly is your definition of "identical"?
    We may or may not agree on some of these things, but I sympathize with you receiving this kind of abusive treatment from FHG, because I have also been the recipient of this kind of treatment! To say that the view of a "generation" is basically a single lifetime, along with the peers of that generation, does not in any way associate it with Preterist belief! What an abusive correlation! Using that logic, anybody who refers to the Baby Boom generation would then be considered a "Preterist?"

  11. #206
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Many claim that the church is not mentioned after a certain point in the book of Revelations. They say you wont find the church mentioned is because they were raptured. Can any of you Rapturist explain. Is that true?
    I can tell you there's no truth whatsoever in that claim. The church will be on earth and rapture at the end of the Great Tribulation.

  12. #207
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I can tell you there's no truth whatsoever in that claim. The church will be on earth and rapture at the end of the Great Tribulation.
    Yes. The "church" is referred to as the saints in the end times chapters of Revelation.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #208

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Luke 17 is not speaking of the rapture (1Thes:4). Those who are taken are taken to judgement.

    "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." - Luke 17:37

    Notice they ask where those who are taken are taken to.... they are taken to the eagles (see also Rev 19:17-21).

    This is "as it was in the days of Noah". During those days the flood came and destroyed/took them all away. Those who where destroyed where the wicked. Likewise here it is the wicked/unsaved that are taken just like the days of Noah.
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes

    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

  14. #209
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by thedee View Post
    Luke 17 is not speaking of the rapture (1Thes:4). Those who are taken are taken to judgement.

    "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." - Luke 17:37

    Notice they ask where those who are taken are taken to.... they are taken to the eagles (see also Rev 19:17-21).

    This is "as it was in the days of Noah". During those days the flood came and destroyed/took them all away. Those who where destroyed where the wicked. Likewise here it is the wicked/unsaved that are taken just like the days of Noah.
    They are taken to watch Jesus slay the army of the beast at Armageddon. The taken are accepted which is what the word means. The word left means to reject and leave to die so it's the one left by Christ who will be those the vultures feed upon. Context, timeframe and definition of the Greek words show your position to be incorrect.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #210
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by thedee View Post
    Luke 17 is not speaking of the rapture (1Thes:4). Those who are taken are taken to judgement.

    "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." - Luke 17:37

    Notice they ask where those who are taken are taken to.... they are taken to the eagles (see also Rev 19:17-21).

    This is "as it was in the days of Noah". During those days the flood came and destroyed/took them all away. Those who where destroyed where the wicked. Likewise here it is the wicked/unsaved that are taken just like the days of Noah.
    I agree that this is a "taken in judgment." There may be, however, some question as to how the word "taken" fits here. It's possible that Jesus is being asked *where* the event will take place, in which people are taken? This is as opposed to the idea that Jesus is being asked *where* the taken are actually taken?

    But I do think Jesus is talking about the 2nd Coming being an act of judgment, and then transposing this to the generation of his Disciples in which the Romans would also come in judgment, to take away the rebellious Jews. In this case, Jesus may be explaining that it is at the place where eagles gather to the carcass that rebellious Jews will be taken away. In other words, it will be at *Jerusalem* that the Roman "eagles" will gather to destroy Jerusalem and to take away rebellious Jews into exile.

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