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Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

  1. #31
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Correct. Now all we have to do is discover who the TWO are, why only ONE is taken, and why the OTHER is left, where the One is taken to, and where the OTHER is left.? THREE People are in view in Luke 17:20-37.
    1. Those who will be destroyed like the masses where at Noah and Lot's time
    2. Those who are "taken as intimate companions"
    3. Those who are "LEFT"

    So now I ask you to give exposition, in context, and being accurate with the words and their meaning, to show
    1. WHO are those, who like the people at Noah's and Lot's time, "were ALL destroyed"?
    2. WHO are commanded to lose their soul life BUT are LEFT behind - and where?
    3. WHO are those commanded to lose their soul life and who are "taken as intimate companions" - and where?

    Thanks brother.
    It's all actually much more simple than you're trying to make it.

    Christ's warning that times would be like the days of Noah and Lot is not about a THIRD group of people. Those outside the ark that are 'taken' by the flood represent the same ones that are taken later.


    Was our Lord Jesus warning for us to remain, or to be taken. Let's find out per the written Scripture...

    Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    Who is taken all away there? Those outside the ark subject to the flood of course. These are the same ones represented by the first one taken in the later verses...


    Matt.24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


    In this Matt.24 Scripture those 41-42 verses are not enough to know who these first one's taken are. But the next verses here give more of a clue...


    Matt.24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    KJV


    The 'taken' idea is about surprise in all those examples.

    In the final Scripture, Jesus shows it's those of His servants that stay on watch, not surprised by the thief, that He finds favor with, and notice what He will be happy to find them doing when He comes...

    Matt.24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


    This is why in the Luke 17:37 verse, Jesus shows it's the deceived that are the first one's 'taken', and are like a dead 'carcase', gathered by the birds of prey to feast on.

  2. #32
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    ....

    The sentences present us with ONE TAKEN somewhere, and ONE LEFT somewhere. Here is the text of Luke 17:35-37 (KJV);

    35 "Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."


    The word "LEFT" is the last mentioned event in BOTH sentences. Thus, the "Where Lord?" in verse 37 pertains to where they were LEFT.
    ....
    No, the "Where, Lord?" question Jesus' disciples asked Him was regarding where the one 'taken'... was to. Simple.

  3. #33
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    to understand first one should look into the day of Lord which is when the Lord returns to the Mt of Olives that the two that were with Him when He ascended told the disciples that Jesus would return to that place. the OT prophets speak of that particular day as when the Mt of Olives explodes and creates a valley where its at and the day is darkened and the night is the same as the day that is darkened, w/some discerptions that would match an all out nuke response.

    then one can see that what Jesus warns of is to that day.

    your thinking on eagles doesn't seem to make sense. any living things would be found where their feed is. but one should take into consideration that there are some prophecies that refer to birds feasting on the dead in the day of the Lord.
    No 'day of the Lord' association explains the metaphor Jesus used there in Luke 17.

    The Matthew 24:28 version of His answer gives more info as to the condition of those 'taken', and that shows those to be the deceived and wicked that are taken.

    Matt 24:28-30
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    KJV


    Even the Greek word for "carcase" there is about a literal dead body. Since when are Christ's servants symbolic dead bodies? That's a symbol for the wicked and deceived, not Christ's elect.

    And in this Matt.24 example of His Luke 17 answer, it's just prior to His 2nd coming. So wherever the dead are just before His return, that's also where the vultures will be gathered to feast on those dead bodies. That is NOT... about Christ's Church. The first one taken is to where the devil and his are gathered.

  4. #34
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Jesus isn't speaking about a dead body, he is using a euphemism about a dead body being whee the vultures/eagles will be gathered at. Like a bear is drawn to honey and a bee to nectar. So they ask him, where Lord as in where will the people be taken to, and Jesus as he was want to do told them in riddles, because the coming Rapture was for Paul, the disciple unto the Gentiles, not for them else Jesus would have explained it in detail.
    It's a metaphor alright. And He explained it when His disciples asked Him with saying wheresoever the body is, that's where the eagles will be gathered. He used an allegory with a natural event, i.e., birds gathered around a dead carcase.

    Matt 24:28-30
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    KJV


    There is absolutely NO WAY you can change that Scripture to say something else besides a dead "carcase". In the Greek it's the word ptoma which means a 'lifeless body, corpse, carrion' (Strong's no. 4430).


    Luke 17:36-37
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    KJV

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    No one survives not taking the mark of the beast....(perhaps only the 144,000). Are they cowards and hiding out?
    Actually many do, but this is ONLY because the time is shortened. If more time was given for the AC to rule then you would be correct.

    Does anyone survive not taking God's mark?
    Ultimately no.

  6. #36
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I read your postings and disagreed with your conclusions as your CONTEXT was incorrect.
    Those who are taken in CONTEXT are those who are slaughtered.
    Joseph taking a wife is no more intimate than having another person alongside you.
    If you choose to use Hebrew words to explain Greek words...
    It is indeed how scripture uses the words which is important, and on that we agree.


    Actually when you physical die your soul goes to hades, even as your body returns to the earth.
    I agree with your example of Matt 10:28 and that of Jesus. However scripture is NOT as clinically exact as you are claiming.
    At times it does differentiate and at others it doesn't.
    So we need to use the words as used within the CONTEXT and not as if it is a medical textbook.
    Language is unfortunately more loose than we sometimes want.
    In Luke 17 we have verse 37 which speaks of a body, which then speaks of the soul having left the body, which means that there was a PHYSICAL death.
    In Matt 24:28 the word used is that of a corpse, which clarifies things further.


    Actually the issue under discussion IS related to whether to flee or not.
    The one who is taken is the one who has NOT fled.
    Where is the one taken? To be a body, a corpse, food for the birds.
    There is indeed force taken, but it isn't God's.
    It is that of man.


    Gen 19:26* But Lot's wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
    I agree the actual words do not say she turned back.
    What it says is she was behind him and looks back.
    Now what does that tell you?
    She is behind him and looking to what she has left behind.
    Her physical action of lagging behind and of looking back shows what is in her mind.
    Why else do you think she was turned into a pillar of salt?


    I ONLY introduced Matt 24 where it connects with Luke 17. You are trying to broaden it into other things outside the scope.
    However verse 9 - 14 are 100% about the Church.
    This is VERY EASY to see.
    Mat 24:9* Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    Who are they? The Jews and anyone else who persecutes you.
    Who is you? The disciples, the followers of Jesus.
    Why? Because of His name.
    Therefore in this verse alone it is abundantly clear this is about the church and spans the age from His departure to His return. Therefore this is NOT about the Jews.
    Verse 10 is not about Jews, but about the Church.
    Verse 11 is about the church - do you not realise there are false prophets in the Church?
    Verse 12 speaks of the love of Christians growing cold:
    We read this in the following verse:
    Rev 2:4* But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.

    Verse 13 is about Christians enduring NOT Jews. It is a strange claim that it is not Christians. Have you not heard the parable of the Sower? Perhaps you peddle OSAS?
    Verse 14 is not the time of travail for the Jew, but the time UNTIL Jesus returns. It is for the Christian to shorten this time by preaching the gospel.

    Now verse 15 then is where the events of the Jews and those of Christians come together.
    The GT starts in Jerusalem and is the Day of Jacob's Trouble, but from there it expands into the world and is the GT for Christians. Jews are either taken or flee into the wilderness and safety.

    I am not interested in exhaustively creating a commentary on Luke 17.
    It is very simple, the CONTEXT of Luke 17 is the SAME event as that in Matt 24 which is an event in Jerusalem. This is NOT a rapture event, as you should be agreeing as you have Matt 24 until verse 31 as about the Jews, which therefore includes the SAME verses in Matthew as we read in Luke 17.

    What you don't seem to follow is that Luke is relating this part of the Olivet Discourse out of chronology because Luke writes according to topic (as it chronologically occurs).
    Thank you for your reply. I have read it and noted it.

  7. #37
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    It's all actually much more simple than you're trying to make it.

    Christ's warning that times would be like the days of Noah and Lot is not about a THIRD group of people. Those outside the ark that are 'taken' by the flood represent the same ones that are taken later.


    Was our Lord Jesus warning for us to remain, or to be taken. Let's find out per the written Scripture...

    Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    Who is taken all away there? Those outside the ark subject to the flood of course. These are the same ones represented by the first one taken in the later verses...


    Matt.24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


    In this Matt.24 Scripture those 41-42 verses are not enough to know who these first one's taken are. But the next verses here give more of a clue...


    Matt.24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    KJV


    The 'taken' idea is about surprise in all those examples.

    In the final Scripture, Jesus shows it's those of His servants that stay on watch, not surprised by the thief, that He finds favor with, and notice what He will be happy to find them doing when He comes...

    Matt.24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


    This is why in the Luke 17:37 verse, Jesus shows it's the deceived that are the first one's 'taken', and are like a dead 'carcase', gathered by the birds of prey to feast on.
    Amazing!

    Your OP used Luke 20 to show that there was no rapture. I asked you for an exposť on this section and you proceed to give one on Matthew 24

    Your exposť of Matthew 24 completely ignores the fact that "taken" in Judgement in verse 39 is a completely different word to "taken" in verse 40 and 41. Instead of opening it up and explaining this difference made by the Holy Spirit, you call it, "this "taken" idea ..."

    Your conclusion defies the grammar of Luke 17:37. Let us set them side by side and see if what you say is true:

    The Holy Spirit says, in Luke 17:37; "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    This is why in the Luke 17:37 verse, Jesus shows it's the deceived that are the first one's 'taken', and are like a dead 'carcase', gathered by the birds of prey to feast on.
    Your friend and ally, ForHisglory, writes that we must not take God's Word clinically accurately and precisely. But supposing we do;
    • You write - "the deceived". The Holy Spirit writes - "those who are left"
    • You write - "the deceived are the first ones 'taken'". The Holy Spirit says, by the use of "paralambano" that those "taken" are "associates"
    • You write - "they are taken LIKE a dead carcass". The Holy Spirit writes - "the 'LEFT' are left WHERE the carcass is"
    • You write - the dead carcass is "gathered BY the birds of prey". The Holy Spirit writes that the carcass is already there and that the vultures will gather AT the carcass

    We have an example of this looseness in Eve, and the results were disastrous;

    God says in Genesis 2:16-17;
    16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
    Eve says in Genesis 3:2-3;
    2 "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
    Eve was only slightly of track, but the rot had set in. Once we are not clinically accurate with God's Word we are open for all manner of deception. In Luke 17:20-37 God shows THREE peoples:
    1. The "THEY" of verse 27 and 28. These are the Nations and their fate is to be destroyed.
    2. The ones who are commanded to lose their soul-life and who are "TAKEN". Only DISCIPLES are commanded to lose their soul-life. Where they are "TAKEN" is not directly said, but the Greek indicates that they are intimate COMPANIONS and "associates". So those who are "TAKEN" go with Somebody. Added to this, if the ones who were LEFT are on earth, then those "Taken" must be off the earth.
    3. The ones who are commanded to lose their soul-life and who are "LEFT". Only DISCIPLES are commanded to lose their soul-life. WHERE they are "LEFT" IS DIRECTLY SAID. They are LEFT at the PLACE of the great slaughter. Since this is the time of the Great Tribulation, and multitudes of men will be slaughtered right up till the grand slaughter of Armageddon, they are "LEFT" ON EARTH. Why were they LEFT? There can only be one reason. They were supposed to be INTIMATE COMPANIONS but were judged bad COMPANY. They must have refused to lose their "soul-life" for their "COMPANION".

    Therefore, those "TAKEN" as intimate companions must be TAKEN FROM THE EARTH. And IF they are intimate COMPANIONS they must be in the COMPANY of the Lord Who they lost their soul-lives for - the clouds where the Lord is "present" ("parousia" - Gk.)

    This is not only the result of treating God's Word accurately, but it is in keeping with the warnings to Christians throughout the New Testament.
    • You have SLOTHFUL and DISOBEDIENT Christians, and you have SELFLESS and OBEDIENT Christians
    • You have Christians who take the broad way and you have Christians who take the narrow way (Matthew 7:13 is addressing DISCIPLES)
    • You have Christians who hide their Talent in the earth and you have Christians who MULTIPLY their Talent (Matt.25)
    • You have Christians who INJURE the Church and you have Christians who BUILD the Church (1st Cor.3)
    • You have Christians who bear no fruit and are cut off and you have Christians who are pruned and bear MUCH FRUIT (Jn.15)
    • You have DISCIPLES who cast out demons and did many wondrous work for Christ, but are called "workers of iniquity" and that the Lord does NOT KNOW them (Matt:7:21-23)
    • You have DISCIPLES who refuse to lose their soul-life and our Lord Jesus says that they are not worthy of Him (Matt.10:38-39)
    • You have Christians who pass through THE Great Tribulation with heat, hunger and tears. Their garments were dirty and had to be washed (Rev.7:9-17).
    • You have Christians "who were redeemed FROM the earth" and who had "no guile" and are "without fault" (Rev.14:1-5)

    Is it such a mystery that when our Lord Comes again that He will ONLY "TAKE" those who "KNEW" him and were "KNOWN" of Him? The word "KNEW" in Matthew 7:23, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity", is "ginosko" in the Greek. It means that a person has EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of something. Our Lord Jesus "knows" all Christians INTELLECTUALLY, but He only "knows" SOME experientially. Scripture uses this word "ginosko" in the sense of INTIMACY. Its first mention is in Matthew 1:25, and means sexual knowledge - "And (Joseph) knew her (Mary) not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." The woman with an issue of blood in Mark 5:29, "... and she felt (ginosko) in her body that she was healed of that plague." She suddenly, by "feeling", that she had been cured. It supposes INTIMATE KNOWLEDGE.

    We can thus conclude that:
    1. The world's people, the nations, will be TAKEN (airo - Gk.) in judgement when the lord is "present"
    2. The DILIGENT Christian, who is INTIMATE with Jesus, will be "TAKEN" (paralambano) as a INTIMATE COMPANION to the clouds where our Lord Jesus is "present" (parousia - Gk.)
    3. The SLOTHFUL Christian will be "LEFT" where those of the nations will be slaughtered - on earth

  8. #38
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    It's a metaphor alright. And He explained it when His disciples asked Him with saying wheresoever the body is, that's where the eagles will be gathered. He used an allegory with a natural event, i.e., birds gathered around a dead carcase.

    Matt 24:28-30
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    KJV


    There is absolutely NO WAY you can change that Scripture to say something else besides a dead "carcase". In the Greek it's the word ptoma which means a 'lifeless body, corpse, carrion' (Strong's no. 4430).


    Luke 17:36-37
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    KJV
    And you still don't get it do you ? Probably because you don't believe the Rapture is pre-tribulation, of that is the case, no wonder, you will never get what I am saying. Matt. 24 has the quote right before the Second Coming, thus its about all the DEAD BODIES that will be at Armageddon, the eagle (Church/Bride) will be where the carcass (DEAD BODIES) are at, and that will be Armageddon. Meanwhile Luke has the quote mixed with verbiage Matthew has in verses 36-51, so he has it with the Rapture sequence, not the Second Coming sequence.

    Matthew 1-6 is the 70 AD Event....Matthew 7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age....Matt. 15-31 is the Tribulation and 2nd Coming....Matthew 32-35 is the Parable of the Fig Tree. Matthew 24-36-51 is the Rapture of the Church.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Amazing!

    Your OP used Luke 20 to show that there was no rapture. I asked you for an exposť on this section and you proceed to give one on Matthew 24
    Well, no, I never quoted anything from Luke 20 in my OP. You must be thinking of someone else. My OP was in Luke 17, and then the Matthew 24:28 version of His answer in Luke 17:37. So there is no such expose on the Matt.24 chapter in my OP either. I simply quoted Matt.24:28 which is another version of Christ's answer to His disciples in Luke 17:37. Very simple.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    And you still don't get it do you ? Probably because you don't believe the Rapture is pre-tribulation, of that is the case, no wonder, you will never get what I am saying. Matt. 24 has the quote right before the Second Coming, thus its about all the DEAD BODIES that will be at Armageddon, the eagle (Church/Bride) will be where the carcass (DEAD BODIES) are at, and that will be Armageddon. Meanwhile Luke has the quote mixed with verbiage Matthew has in verses 36-51, so he has it with the Rapture sequence, not the Second Coming sequence.

    Matthew 1-6 is the 70 AD Event....Matthew 7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age....Matt. 15-31 is the Tribulation and 2nd Coming....Matthew 32-35 is the Parable of the Fig Tree. Matthew 24-36-51 is the Rapture of the Church.
    Oh, I get what our Lord Jesus said just fine. Our Lord Jesus' disciples asked Him where the first ones 'taken' would be taken to, and He answered them, which is about dead bodies being wheresoever birds of prey are gathered.

    I wonder if some of you here have ever seen a bird of prey gathered around a dead carcase. I have, not a pretty sight.

    And whether or not I believe in a pre-trib or post-trib rapture is irrelevant, simply because our Lord's answer to the where the one taken is to is plain enough, showing how pre-trib preachers have duped many brethren with their wrong teaching of that 'taken' idea from Luke 17.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Oh, I get what our Lord Jesus said just fine. Our Lord Jesus' disciples asked Him where the first ones 'taken' would be taken to, and He answered them, which is about dead bodies being wheresoever birds of prey are gathered.

    I wonder if some of you here have ever seen a bird of prey gathered around a dead carcase. I have, not a pretty sight.

    And whether or not I believe in a pre-trib or post-trib rapture is irrelevant, simply because our Lord's answer to the where the one taken is to is plain enough, showing how pre-trib preachers have duped many brethren with their wrong teaching of that 'taken' idea from Luke 17.
    One thing I've never really resolved is whether the "eagles gathering" is a reference to *vultures* or to actual *eagles* themselves? Perhaps in the language of the time scavenger birds of this sort had a common name referring to both equally? I ask this because I think vultures behave differently than eagles do. I see vultures as how I've seen them in the movies, circling around a dying animal. Eagles, I think, are different than this. We have them around here, in the Pacific NW, and I never really see them acting like "vultures."

    If this is a reference to *vultures,* I can see how the Romans gathered to the "prey" in Jerusalem, where they would be defeated, killed, and eventually, deported ("taken"). But if this is a reference to "eagles," then it would equally fit the Romans, who marched in carrying eagle standards, representing one of their gods. And certainly eagles feed on dead bodies, just as vultures do.

    This is, I believe, compared to the 2nd Coming, because there will be a great judgment at that time, as well, with many dying, and scavenging birds gathering. But I think Jesus' focus was primarily on the events about to unfold in his own generation, with the Romans coming in and encircling Jerusalem, bringing judgment to his own time.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    One thing I've never really resolved is whether the "eagles gathering" is a reference to *vultures* or to actual *eagles* themselves? Perhaps in the language of the time scavenger birds of this sort had a common name referring to both equally? I ask this because I think vultures behave differently than eagles do. I see vultures as how I've seen them in the movies, circling around a dying animal. Eagles, I think, are different than this. We have them around here, in the Pacific NW, and I never really see them acting like "vultures."

    If this is a reference to *vultures,* I can see how the Romans gathered to the "prey" in Jerusalem, where they would be defeated, killed, and eventually, deported ("taken"). But if this is a reference to "eagles," then it would equally fit the Romans, who marched in carrying eagle standards, representing one of their gods. And certainly eagles feed on dead bodies, just as vultures do.

    This is, I believe, compared to the 2nd Coming, because there will be a great judgment at that time, as well, with many dying, and scavenging birds gathering. But I think Jesus' focus was primarily on the events about to unfold in his own generation, with the Romans coming in and encircling Jerusalem, bringing judgment to his own time.
    Both eagles and vultures are birds of prey, and that's the main point. Birds of prey eating flesh is an analogy given in several Bible Scriptures. Some Bible scholars treat our Lord Jesus' answer about eagles as alluding to the Roman's eagle symbol they used. But really, the Matt.24:28 version about a dead "carcase" makes it more plain that vultures are meant, because eagles most often kill their prey, while vultures go after what has already died.

    There's another possible meaning from God's Word for the usage of "eagles" instead of vultures. God is compared to a great eagle protecting its young in Deut.32. In Jer.49, God uses the analogy of making one's nest high like the eagle for how He would punish Edom. It's a type of analogy of exalting oneself above God. In Ezekiel 17, God uses the eagle with great wings as an analogy to royalty, in that case king Zedekiah whom God sent the king of Babylon upon to destroy in Jeremiah's day.

    In that Ezek.17 sense, I believe that's why our Lord used the eagle symbol instead of vultures. It's a pointer to the Antichrist who is going to do what at the end of this world? He is going to claim to be God (2 Thess.2:4). In that sense then, the 'eagle' symbol representing the Antichrist would mean a fake eagle, and thus a vulture in disguise.

  13. #43
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Well, no, I never quoted anything from Luke 20 in my OP. You must be thinking of someone else. My OP was in Luke 17, and then the Matthew 24:28 version of His answer in Luke 17:37. So there is no such expose on the Matt.24 chapter in my OP either. I simply quoted Matt.24:28 which is another version of Christ's answer to His disciples in Luke 17:37. Very simple.
    Quite correct. A typo - but when I require accuracy from others I should lead. Thanks for the correction and "Mea culpa".

    I would like to thank you for this exchange and your Christian spirit in debate. I hope we all profited. God bless.

  14. #44
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    No, the "Where, Lord?" question Jesus' disciples asked Him was regarding where the one 'taken'... was to. Simple.
    Where does Jesus take his heavenly army to?

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Where does Jesus take his heavenly army to?

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    That's irrelevant to the metaphor He used at the end of Luke 17. We can't just pull the word 'taken' out of the Luke 17 example He gave and apply it outside the context, as you did above. The context of those Luke 17 verses is about the first one's taken that He described with His disciples asking Him, "Where, Lord?", and His answering them with a metaphor to where birds of prey are. That's a lot different than the Rev.19 Scripture about His 2nd coming to gather His Church and punish His enemies.

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