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Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

  1. #46
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    So... just where is that gathering of birds of prey (eagles) that Jesus said those in Luke 17 will be 'taken' to?

    The "carcase" example linked to Luke 17:37 was given within the tribulation events of Matthew 24, just prior to Christ's coming and gathering of His saints.

    Matt 24:28-31
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    KJV



    One of the major events our Lord Jesus warned of prior to His coming there was about a pseudo-Christ that the deceived will be saying is Christ. Jesus said that false one will work great signs and wonders, that if possible, would deceive even His very elect. Are we getting closer to where the dead "carcase" will be for the birds to feast on?

    Jesus showed that coming pseudo-Christ (Antichrist) will appear in Jerusalem, and will place the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. Our Lord Jesus also revealed it will be a time of no more wars (opposite of Matt.24:6). He said in that time if someone comes up to you and says He's in the "secret chambers", or that He is "in the desert", to not believe it! (Matt.24:26)

    The deceived in Jerusalem will think that pseudo-Christ is Messiah having come. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul showed that false one will sit in the "temple of God" (a literal temple in Jerusalem) and exalt himself over anything called God, or that is worshiped. That covers it all folks, anything and everything that man worships, that coming pseudo-Christ demand that he be worshiped as... GOD.

    So... will those being told they will be raptured to Heaven prior to those tribulation events, where will they be 'taken' to? We know already it will be to wheresoever the eagles are (birds of prey), and per the last days warnings of our Lord Jesus and His Apostles, that will be to Jerusalem, prior to our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming. If then, it's not our Lord Jesus' time of coming, then it will have to be that pseudo-Christ gathering those first ones 'taken'. Our Lord Jesus did say that pseudo-Christ will work great signs and wonders so powerful that it could fool even His very elect (Matt.24:23-26).

  2. #47
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    That's irrelevant to the metaphor He used at the end of Luke 17. We can't just pull the word 'taken' out of the Luke 17 example He gave and apply it outside the context, as you did above. The context of those Luke 17 verses is about the first one's taken that He described with His disciples asking Him, "Where, Lord?", and His answering them with a metaphor to where birds of prey are. That's a lot different than the Rev.19 Scripture about His 2nd coming to gather His Church and punish His enemies.
    Actually it's exactly where he takes his army. The taking and leaving is done by Christ and thus he takes the saints and leaves the unsaved. The saints follow him as part of his army to Armageddon where they will see the birds dining on the dead as the end result of the battle.

    The one taken is not taken to Armageddon to be killed. The ones who die there travel there on their own. The only ones Christ takes there is his army.

    Not to mention taken in the Greek means to accept, and left means to be rejected. So the one taken means the one accepted, and the one left means the one rejected:


    taken
    3880

    3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

    from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

    AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

    1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1a) an associate, a companion
    1b) metaph.
    1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
    1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
    2) to receive something transmitted
    2a) an office to be discharged
    2b) to receive with the mind
    2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
    tradition proceeds
    2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
    (used of disciples)

    "to take with one's self"
    "to join to one's self"
    "an associate"
    "a companion"
    "not to reject"



    left
    863

    863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

    from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
    TDNT - 1:509,88; v

    AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
    misc 13; 146

    1) to send away
    1a) to bid going away or depart
    1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
    1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
    1c) to let go, let alone, let be
    1c1) to disregard
    1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
    1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
    1c3) to omit, neglect
    1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
    1e) to give up, keep no longer
    2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
    3) to leave, go way from one
    3a) in order to go to another place
    3b) to depart from any one
    3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
    mutual claims are abandoned
    3d) to desert wrongfully
    3e) to go away leaving something behind
    3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
    3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
    3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
    3i) abandon, leave destitute

    "to send away"
    "of a husband divorcing his wife"
    "to expire"
    "to disregard"
    "neglect"
    "keep no longer"
    "to leave on dying"
    "leave behind one"
    "abandon, leave destitute"

    That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
    want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
    Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
    are "kept no longer".
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #48
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    So... will those being told they will be raptured to Heaven prior to those tribulation events, where will they be 'taken' to? We know already it will be to wheresoever the eagles are (birds of prey), and per the last days warnings of our Lord Jesus and His Apostles, that will be to Jerusalem, prior to our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming. If then, it's not our Lord Jesus' time of coming, then it will have to be that pseudo-Christ gathering those first ones 'taken'. Our Lord Jesus did say that pseudo-Christ will work great signs and wonders so powerful that it could fool even His very elect (Matt.24:23-26).
    I'm afraid you have this wrong. The taken and left happens when Christ returns not before it.

    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    The timeframe is when Christ returns.


    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    THEN means "at that time"...it connects the previous timeframe to what comes next...people being taken and people not being taken. Have you heard of the rapture? Literally two people could be standing next to each other and one is taken up to the clouds! That's the true timeframe and meaning of those being taken. The ones not taken are not taken because they are unsaved.

    then
    5119

    5119 tote {tot'-eh}

    from (the neuter of) 3588 and 3753;; adv

    AV - then 149, that time 4, when 1, not tr 5; 159

    1) then
    2) at that time

    Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    None of this is before the second coming as you claim. You have the timeframe wrong plus you have the taken ones being bad people and the left ones being good people completely opposite of what scripture says about them.

    STUDY! Learn!

    Have you ever even bothered to look up the words in the Greek and see what they mean?

    taken
    3880

    3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

    from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

    AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

    1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1a) an associate, a companion
    1b) metaph.
    1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
    1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
    2) to receive something transmitted
    2a) an office to be discharged
    2b) to receive with the mind
    2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
    tradition proceeds
    2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
    (used of disciples)

    "to take with one's self"
    "to join to one's self"
    "an associate"
    "a companion"
    "not to reject"



    left
    863

    863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

    from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
    TDNT - 1:509,88; v

    AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
    misc 13; 146

    1) to send away
    1a) to bid going away or depart
    1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
    1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
    1c) to let go, let alone, let be
    1c1) to disregard
    1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
    1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
    1c3) to omit, neglect
    1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
    1e) to give up, keep no longer
    2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
    3) to leave, go way from one
    3a) in order to go to another place
    3b) to depart from any one
    3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
    mutual claims are abandoned
    3d) to desert wrongfully
    3e) to go away leaving something behind
    3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
    3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
    3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
    3i) abandon, leave destitute

    "to send away"
    "of a husband divorcing his wife"
    "to expire"
    "to disregard"
    "neglect"
    "keep no longer"
    "to leave on dying"
    "leave behind one"
    "abandon, leave destitute"

    That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
    want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
    Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
    are "kept no longer".
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #49
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Actually it's exactly where he takes his army. The taking and leaving is done by Christ and thus he takes the saints and leaves the unsaved. The saints follow him as part of his army to Armageddon where they will see the birds dining on the dead as the end result of the battle.

    The one taken is not taken to Armageddon to be killed. The ones who die there travel there on their own. The only ones Christ takes there is his army.

    Not to mention taken in the Greek means to accept, and left means to be rejected. So the one taken means the one accepted, and the one left means the one rejected:


    taken
    3880

    3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

    from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

    AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

    1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1a) an associate, a companion
    1b) metaph.
    1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
    1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
    2) to receive something transmitted
    2a) an office to be discharged
    2b) to receive with the mind
    2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
    tradition proceeds
    2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
    (used of disciples)

    "to take with one's self"
    "to join to one's self"
    "an associate"
    "a companion"
    "not to reject"



    left
    863

    863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

    from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
    TDNT - 1:509,88; v

    AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
    misc 13; 146

    1) to send away
    1a) to bid going away or depart
    1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
    1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
    1c) to let go, let alone, let be
    1c1) to disregard
    1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
    1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
    1c3) to omit, neglect
    1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
    1e) to give up, keep no longer
    2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
    3) to leave, go way from one
    3a) in order to go to another place
    3b) to depart from any one
    3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
    mutual claims are abandoned
    3d) to desert wrongfully
    3e) to go away leaving something behind
    3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
    3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
    3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
    3i) abandon, leave destitute

    "to send away"
    "of a husband divorcing his wife"
    "to expire"
    "to disregard"
    "neglect"
    "keep no longer"
    "to leave on dying"
    "leave behind one"
    "abandon, leave destitute"

    That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
    want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
    Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
    are "kept no longer".

    The Scripture does not declare what you are trying to inject... into it.

    The first one 'taken' in Christ's example is definitely NOT... to Him. It instead is to where the birds of prey will be feasting on dead carcases per Matt.24:28 and Luke 17:37.

    Pre-trib rapture preachers usually stop before they get to the Luke 17:37 verse where Jesus gave His answer to His disciples asking "Where, Lord?" those first one's taken would be taken to. And they definitely don't preach Jesus' parallel answer Matthew wrote down in Matthew 24:28 that goes with Luke 17:37!

    But our Heavenly Father and His Son allows Satan and his workers to deceive those who would rather listen to men instead of God in His Word.

  5. #50
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    The Scripture does not declare what you are trying to inject... into it.
    So the meaning of the words taken and left are not what the writer intended them to mean? We should take the meaning of LEFT and insert it into TAKEN? Doesn't sound wise to me.

    The first one 'taken' in Christ's example is definitely NOT... to Him.
    It is according to scripture. When Christ returns, one is taken which happens first, then last if someone being left/rejected. Obviously the one taken is raptured and the other is rejected for rapture because they are unsaved.


    It instead is to where the birds of prey will be feasting on dead carcases per Matt.24:28 and Luke 17:37.
    Of course. The raptured saints follow Christ to the battle of Armageddon and watch the birds feed on the rejected rebels.



    Pre-trib rapture preachers usually stop before they get to the Luke 17:37 verse where Jesus gave His answer to His disciples asking "Where, Lord?" those first one's taken would be taken to. And they definitely don't preach Jesus' parallel answer Matthew wrote down in Matthew 24:28 that goes with Luke 17:37!
    Pre-trib isn't scriptural.

    But our Heavenly Father and His Son allows Satan and his workers to deceive those who would rather listen to men instead of God in His Word.
    And rather than the actual words and their meanings in His Word...
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    To those on the thread.....

    Is it possible that BOTH the ones taken AND the ones left are unbelievers.?

    It does appear that NIETHER watching nor doing what the Lord wanted. They were both working....

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    To those on the thread...…..

    Is it possible that BOTH the ones taken AND the ones left are unbelievers.?

    It does appear that NIETHER watching nor doing what the Lord wanted. They were both working....
    It's just a few generic examples. The main thing is to understand what the Greek words for TAKEN and LEFT actually mean. That's the first step in understanding who is good and who is not. The second step to to identify who the taken and left are in the other examples Christ gave, namely in the story of Lot and Noah. It's the Noah story that trips many up because it uses a word "taken" but is not the same word nor is related to the "one taken". The story of Lot is t6eh easier one because Lot is literally taken to safety out of the city by an angel, and the people who die were LEFT in the city. Same in Noah, his family TAKEN into the safety of the ark, and the rest left outside of the ark will die.

    Again, in the Greek TAKEN means to accept...something positive, whereas LEFT means to reject and leave to die. You would think it would be easy to understand but apparently not.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #53
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    To those on the thread...…..

    Is it possible that BOTH the ones taken AND the ones left are unbelievers.?

    It does appear that NIETHER watching nor doing what the Lord wanted. They were both working....
    The one left working at the mill is pointing to the goodman analogy Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.

    The goodman of the house stays on watch to catch the thief, and giving meat in due season, which means feeding his own house while waiting, and in a deeper spiritual sense is about feeding the sheep God's Word, as the "strong meat" in Hebrews 5 is pointing to a deeper understanding of God's Word, a level of a teacher and not of one still on symbolic 'milk'.

    The analogy of the ten virgins in Matt.25 is similar, as only the five wise virgins had a 'spare' vessel of the Oil, the Oil representing The Holy Spirit, and thus the God given ability to give 'meat' in due season, if you will.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    So the meaning of the words taken and left are not what the writer intended them to mean? We should take the meaning of LEFT and insert it into TAKEN? Doesn't sound wise to me.
    Jesus' meaning is simple enough, cannot be twisted like the doctrine you're following tries to do. When He answered that the ones taken are wheresoever the dead "carcase" is, that's so obvious it's not to Him that a little child can understand it.

    Matt 24:28
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV

    Luke 17:37
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV


    Those on men's doctrine can rattle on all they want, but they cannot change the meaning of those verses that quoted Jesus' answer about those 'taken' being to birds of prey.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    The one left working at the mill is pointing to the goodman analogy Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.
    Except the word LEFT in the Greek does not mean "left working" it means to be rejected and left to die if you check Thayer's for it's definition.



    The analogy of the ten virgins in Matt.25 is similar, as only the five wise virgins had a 'spare' vessel of the Oil, the Oil representing The Holy Spirit, and thus the God given ability to give 'meat' in due season, if you will.
    The wise virgins were TAKEN away by Jesus, while the rest were LEFT/REJECTED. That is the same the lesson found in the examples of Lot, Noah and the ten virgins. Always the first ones are TAKEN to a safe place, then the rest died or were punished.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Jesus' meaning is simple enough, cannot be twisted like the doctrine you're following tries to do. When He answered that the ones taken are wheresoever the dead "carcase" is, that's so obvious it's not to Him that a little child can understand it.
    Children can also check a Greek dictionary to know what the two words mean also. Adults often don't bother with that but stick with what they were taught...doesn't matter if it doesn't match with what the scriptures say. By all means, if someone wants to be the one LEFT/REJECTED when Christ returns, that's the persons choice.

    YLT
    Mat 24:40 Then two men shall be in the field, the one is received, and the one is left;
    Mat 24:41 two women shall be grinding in the mill, one is received, and one is left.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Children can also check a Greek dictionary to know what the two words mean also. Adults often don't bother with that but stick with what they were taught...doesn't matter if it doesn't match with what the scriptures say. By all means, if someone wants to be the one LEFT/REJECTED when Christ returns, that's the persons choice.

    YLT
    Mat 24:40 Then two men shall be in the field, the one is received, and the one is left;
    Mat 24:41 two women shall be grinding in the mill, one is received, and one is left.
    There is no singular negative or positive connotation for either "taken" or "left" in the Greek. Both words require context for their meaning. Any attempt to create a singular positive or negative definition for either word in all contexts is untrue.

    Just to be fair I could create sentences using either word and apply the words in either a positive or negative connotation. And as you ably demonstrate you can make the word for "taken" mean something positive in the context of that Discourse, and you can make the word for "left" negative in the same way.

    However, I can do the same thing. I can find contexts in the same Discourse applying the concept of "taken" is a negative sense, and "left" in a positive sense. For example, the Flood "took away" the wicked in judgment. Sodom's residence were "taken away" in judgment. But Noah and Lot were "left" to survive. It really depends on how you apply the sense.

    My own sense is that "taken" in the context generally refers to the Jews "taken away" in judgment, as in death or exile. Those "left" are left to live, to survive, or to remain fruitful. And I agree with the brother who believes that "taken" refers to judgment when it is shown that those "taken" are taken to a place where "eagles gather." That is a subtle reference to Roman troops gathering to Jerusalem, which is the "corpse." But plainly, it is a symbol of judgment. I can't see any way around this?

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is no singular negative or positive connotation for either "taken" or "left" in the Greek. Both words require context for their meaning. Any attempt to create a singular positive or negative definition for either word in all contexts is untrue.
    That's not correct. Taken has a positive meaning where left does not.

    taken
    3880

    3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

    from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

    AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

    1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1a) an associate, a companion
    1b) metaph.
    1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
    1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
    2) to receive something transmitted
    2a) an office to be discharged
    2b) to receive with the mind
    2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
    tradition proceeds
    2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
    (used of disciples)

    "to take with one's self"
    "to join to one's self"
    "an associate"
    "a companion"
    "not to reject"



    left
    863

    863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

    from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
    TDNT - 1:509,88; v

    AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
    misc 13; 146

    1) to send away
    1a) to bid going away or depart
    1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
    1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
    1c) to let go, let alone, let be
    1c1) to disregard
    1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
    1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
    1c3) to omit, neglect
    1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
    1e) to give up, keep no longer
    2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
    3) to leave, go way from one
    3a) in order to go to another place
    3b) to depart from any one
    3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
    mutual claims are abandoned
    3d) to desert wrongfully
    3e) to go away leaving something behind
    3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
    3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
    3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
    3i) abandon, leave destitute

    "to send away"
    "of a husband divorcing his wife"
    "to expire"
    "to disregard"
    "neglect"
    "keep no longer"
    "to leave on dying"
    "leave behind one"
    "abandon, leave destitute"





    Just to be fair I could create sentences using either word and apply the words in either a positive or negative connotation. And as you ably demonstrate you can make the word for "taken" mean something positive in the context of that Discourse, and you can make the word for "left" negative in the same way.
    Except mine corresponds to each word's Greek definition.



    However, I can do the same thing. I can find contexts in the same Discourse applying the concept of "taken" is a negative sense, and "left" in a positive sense. For example, the Flood "took away" the wicked in judgment.
    That's using a different Greek word than the one we are talking about.

    Sodom's residence were "taken away" in judgment.
    No, they weren't. Lot was taken out of the city to safety and the rest of the people were left there to burn.




    But Noah and Lot were "left" to survive.
    That's not what the greek word for left means. It means to be rejected and die, or be sent away like in a divorce.



    My own sense is that "taken" in the context generally refers to the Jews "taken away" in judgment, as in death or exile.

    The Greek word we are discussing does not mean such a thing not to mention the taking/accepting and leaving/rejecting happens when Christ returns.


    Those "left" are left to live, to survive, or to remain fruitful.
    That's taking a different definition and forcing it upon a Greek word that doesn't mean that.



    And I agree with the brother who believes that "taken" refers to judgment when it is shown that those "taken" are taken to a place where "eagles gather."
    They are taken there with Christ as part of his army and witness the slaying of those not taken/accepted by Christ.

    One can only understand these things if they understand the two Greek words and what they mean, then when you apply that knowledge to text you will see the one taken is saved, and the one left is left to be killed just like you see in the example of Lot.


    Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
    Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
    Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
    Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
    Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
    Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
    Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
    Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
    Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    In these verses Christ will give multiple examples to teach the same exact thing. There is always a good one on one side and a bad one on the other. The good one is always shown in some type of action FIRST, and the bad one is always LAST. It is always a believer vs. an unbeliever:

    Good-Noah and family............................................ .........Bad-the rest/drowned
    Good-Lot and his family......(Luke 17)...............................Bad-those left in the city
    Good-the one taken/accepted.......................................... .Bad-the one left/rejected
    Good-the goodman........................................... ...............Bad-the thief
    Good-the wise servant........................................... ..........Bad-the evil servant
    Good-the wise virgins........................................... ...........Bad-the foolish virgins
    Good-the servants that increased the talents.....................Bad-the servant that did not have an increase
    Good-the sheep............................................. ..................Bad-the goats


    All on the left side represent the same group of people that are good, wise, profitable, accepted etc.
    All on the right side represent the same group of people that are bad, foolish, unprofitable, rejected etc.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #59
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Here is a foreshadow of the end times wrath of God complete with those that are TAKEN and those that are LEFT:

    Exodus 9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.
    Exodus 9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.



    God is going to pour his wrath upon the wicked



    Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
    Exodus 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?
    Exodus 9:18 Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.



    Here we have hail, and isnt that something we see happen when God rains down his wrath at the end?


    Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


    If you type "hail" in your computer bible search option, the first one is the exodus example and the last is the final hail. First the type is set, and it ends with the fulfillment of the types. Just thought that was worth mentioning.






    Exodus 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.



    Gather
    5756

    05756 `uwz {ooz}

    a primitive root; TWOT - 1578; v

    AV - gather... 2, gather 1, retire 1; 4

    1) (Hiphil) to take refuge, bring to refuge, seek refuge



    "to take refuge" among other things. This word can easily be translated TAKE. This is the type of the one taken. Those not taken will suffer gods wrath which is also the lesson in Matthew.


    Now check this out!



    Exodus 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

    "and shall not be brought home"


    These are those NOT gathered from the field, NOT taken from the field.



    Brought
    622

    0622 'acaph {aw-saf'}

    a primitive root; TWOT - 140; v

    AV - together 51, gather 86, assemble 15, rereward 5, misc 51; 200

    1) to gather, receive, remove, gather in
    1a) (Qal)
    1a1) to gather, collect
    1a2) to gather (an individual into company of others)
    1a3) to bring up the rear
    1a4) to gather and take away, remove, withdraw
    1b) (Niphal)
    1b1) to assemble, be gathered
    1b2) (pass of Qal 1a2)
    1b2a) to be gathered to one's fathers
    1b2b) to be brought in or into (association with others)
    1b3) (pass of Qal 1a4)
    1b3a) to be taken away, removed, perish
    1c) (Piel)
    1c1) to gather (harvest)
    1c2) to take in, receive into
    1c3) rearguard, rearward (subst)
    1d) (Pual) to be gathered
    1e) (Hithpael) to gather oneself or themselves

    This is applied to the one gathered/taken from the field! the ones left in the field are not brought/gathered/taken


    Compare that word's meaning to the greek meaning for "taken" in the verse we've been discussing

    3880

    3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

    from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

    AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

    1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1a) an associate, a companion
    1b) metaph.
    1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
    1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
    2) to receive something transmitted
    2a) an office to be discharged
    2b) to receive with the mind
    2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
    tradition proceeds
    2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
    (used of disciples)

    they are nearly sister words in the two languages and that shouldn't be surprising as they speak of the same type of event, God's wrath and what happens to two types of people.








    Exodus 9:20 He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
    Exodus 9:21 And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.



    Those that "feared" the word of the Lord TOOK their animals into safety.
    Those who did not regard God's word LEFT their animals in the field.




    Exodus 9:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
    Exodus 9:23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
    Exodus 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
    Exodus 9:25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.




    All left in the field when God's wrath comes shall be destroyed which is what Matthew 24:37-41 is talking about.
    All that were taken out of the field were taken to safety, just as Lot was taken to safety.


    Here is the hebrew word for LEFT in these verses

    5800

    05800 `azab {aw-zab'}

    a primitive root; TWOT - 1594,1595; v

    AV - forsake 129, leave 72, leave off 4, faileth 2, fortify 2, help 2,
    committeth 1, destitute 1, refuseth 1, surely 1; 215

    1) to leave, loose, forsake
    1a) (Qal) to leave
    1a1) to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone
    1a2) to leave, abandon, forsake, neglect, apostatise
    1a3) to let loose, set free, let go, free
    1b) (Niphal)
    1b1) to be left to
    1b2) to be forsaken
    1c) (Pual) to be deserted
    2) to restore, repair
    2a) (Qal) to repair



    Compare that to the greek word for the one LEFT in the field!
    863

    863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

    from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
    TDNT - 1:509,88; v

    AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
    misc 13; 146

    1) to send away
    1a) to bid going away or depart
    1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
    1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
    1c) to let go, let alone, let be
    1c1) to disregard
    1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
    1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
    1c3) to omit, neglect
    1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
    1e) to give up, keep no longer
    2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
    3) to leave, go way from one
    3a) in order to go to another place
    3b) to depart from any one
    3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
    mutual claims are abandoned
    3d) to desert wrongfully
    3e) to go away leaving something behind
    3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
    3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
    3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
    3i) abandon, leave destitute


    same exact meaning! Is it not perfectly clear what happens to the one left in the field at the time of the "coming of the son of man"?

    Remember, the ones that were TAKEN were spared God's wrath and the ones that were LEFT were the ones to suffer God's wrath. It is the exact same in the examples of Noah and lot and the second coming.

    The ones TAKEN are symbolic of the ones Raptured/caught up/taken up to safety. The ones LEFT are symbolic of the unsaved who are not Raptured/caught up/taken up to safety.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #60
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    The words taken and left can BOTH be used positively or negatively always depending on context.
    In many ways the key is agreed that no one wants to be where the vultures are and be a corpse.
    The question therefore then becomes how does someone avoid such a fate.
    It is NOT by Rapture, because God will do that and we can do nothing.
    Contextually the requirement is to be like Lot and to flee.

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