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Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

  1. #91
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    You can't be serious please stop and pray and then reread the verses below and ask God for clarity.

    Luke 19:41-44
    41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

    Jesus plainly states that the reason for the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was because they didn't recognize Him as their Messiah. If you can't agree with the words right out of Jesus' mouth then what bases do you have for understanding any scriptures?

    I say this out of brotherly Love but if you can't agree with what Jesus said in Luke 19 then you are saying that Jesus is wrong and therefore can't be God as God is perfect.

    What do you think Jesus meant?

    I really don't care if you agree with anything I said here accept for not believing in Jesus' words in Luke 19:44.

    The reason God waited is because He is patient and gave the Jews time to repent and 40 years wasn't that much of a long time most people would of still been alive.

    Remember these words below when Pilot addressed the people

    Matthew 27:25
    All the people answered, "His blood is on us and on our children!"
    Yes, look at the progression:

    Luke 13.
    34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ "
    Luke 19.
    41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes.43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
    Luke 21.
    5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
    7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”


    I try to never demand that anybody accept something simply because I try to prove it. However, if somebody doesn't want to be objective, it isn't my fault. An honest person should be able to say that they understand, at least, how I draw the conclusions I draw, that Jesus is speaking about his ultimate entry into Jerusalem to die, because of the sins of the Jewish leaders and mob. And he was then declaring a judgment upon Jerusalem within his own generation, as a divine punishment upon her for her recalcitrance and stubborn rebellion. And it should be very clear that Jesus was talking about the physical destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem within the next few decades. Though he promised divine retaliation within his own generation he did not say the judgment would be immediate. Since the judgment fell 40 years later it showed God's patience before bringing comprehensive judgment. It didn't need to bring assault only on the adults in Jesus' time, but also upon the children of these rebels, who were rebels also. The judgment was to be on both the adults in Jesus' generation, and upon their children. The fact God waited 40 years just shows His patience. It did not show any improvement in the Jewish families who had turned away from Jesus.

  2. #92
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, look at the progression:

    Luke 13.
    34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ "
    Luke 19.
    41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes.43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
    Luke 21.
    5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
    7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”


    I try to never demand that anybody accept something simply because I try to prove it. However, if somebody doesn't want to be objective, it isn't my fault. An honest person should be able to say that they understand, at least, how I draw the conclusions I draw, that Jesus is speaking about his ultimate entry into Jerusalem to die, because of the sins of the Jewish leaders and mob. And he was then declaring a judgment upon Jerusalem within his own generation, as a divine punishment upon her for her recalcitrance and stubborn rebellion. And it should be very clear that Jesus was talking about the physical destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem within the next few decades. Though he promised divine retaliation within his own generation he did not say the judgment would be immediate. Since the judgment fell 40 years later it showed God's patience before bringing comprehensive judgment. It didn't need to bring assault only on the adults in Jesus' time, but also upon the children of these rebels, who were rebels also. The judgment was to be on both the adults in Jesus' generation, and upon their children. The fact God waited 40 years just shows His patience. It did not show any improvement in the Jewish families who had turned away from Jesus.
    Thanks for the post Randy and I agree with all that you said except I didn’t demand anyone to accept what I was trying to prove. I actually said that I don’t care if he believes what I was trying to prove I just wanted him to accept exactly what Jesus said.

  3. #93
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Thanks for the post Randy and I agree with all that you said except I didn’t demand anyone to accept what I was trying to prove. I actually said that I don’t care if he believes what I was trying to prove I just wanted him to accept exactly what Jesus said.
    Exactly. I felt your frustration, because I was reading the same Scripture passages you were. I just sort of hang my head and wonder, because I believe most people want to be agreeable and kind, since we're all Christians here. This matter isn't a matter of making anybody agree on the interpretation. It's just a matter of seeing where I'm coming from. I should think it's very, very apparent? It has nothing at all to do with your attitude. I thought it was very good. I wanted to be more like you!

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Exactly. I felt your frustration, because I was reading the same Scripture passages you were. I just sort of hang my head and wonder, because I believe most people want to be agreeable and kind, since we're all Christians here. This matter isn't a matter of making anybody agree on the interpretation. It's just a matter of seeing where I'm coming from. I should think it's very, very apparent? It has nothing at all to do with your attitude. I thought it was very good. I wanted to be more like you!
    Thanks buddy I see what your saying now and ditto LOL

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    You can't be serious please stop and pray and then reread the verses below and ask God for clarity.

    Luke 19:41-44
    41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

    Jesus plainly states that the reason for the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was because they didn't recognize Him as their Messiah. If you can't agree with the words right out of Jesus' mouth then what bases do you have for understanding any scriptures?

    I say this out of brotherly Love but if you can't agree with what Jesus said in Luke 19 then you are saying that Jesus is wrong and therefore can't be God as God is perfect.

    What do you think Jesus meant?
    I will concede this is likely Ad70 and I can accept God used the Roman's for this but I have always maintained none of that is part of the Olivet discourse. If no two stones would be upon each other, everything is flattened, then how are synagogues and prisons still standing?

    Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

    Mark also makes clear that there will be beatings (of Christians not Jews) in these synagogues.

    Kinda hard if no buildings exist during the time of the events of the discourse.

    Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I will concede this is likely Ad70 and I can accept God used the Roman's for this but I have always maintained none of that is part of the Olivet discourse. If no two stones would be upon each other, everything is flattened, then how are synagogues and prisons still standing?

    Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

    Mark also makes clear that there will be beatings (of Christians not Jews) in these synagogues.

    Kinda hard if no buildings exist during the time of the events of the discourse.

    Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
    I’m very glad to hear that thanks

    I believe Jesus is telling the deciples what will happen to them leading up to the destruction of the city and the temple as we read of some of these events in the book of Acts

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I will concede this is likely Ad70 and I can accept God used the Roman's for this but I have always maintained none of that is part of the Olivet discourse. If no two stones would be upon each other, everything is flattened, then how are synagogues and prisons still standing?

    Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

    Mark also makes clear that there will be beatings (of Christians not Jews) in these synagogues.

    Kinda hard if no buildings exist during the time of the events of the discourse.

    Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
    In case I wasn’t clear the deciples are in prisons and synagogues before the city was destroyed

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    In case I wasn’t clear the deciples are in prisons and synagogues before the city was destroyed
    My point was in the entire discourse, it's Christians being persecuted not Jews and nothing about everything being flattened and it ends with Jesus returning at the second coming.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I will concede this is likely Ad70 and I can accept God used the Roman's for this but I have always maintained none of that is part of the Olivet discourse. If no two stones would be upon each other, everything is flattened, then how are synagogues and prisons still standing?

    Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

    Mark also makes clear that there will be beatings (of Christians not Jews) in these synagogues.

    Kinda hard if no buildings exist during the time of the events of the discourse.

    Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
    The temple itself was flattened, stone by stone, just as Jesus promised. The Church Fathers fully understood this, and acknowledged it. The Disciples apparently had trouble with the announcement because it conflicted with their view of Messiah, who would bring the age of Jewish trouble to an end. But Jesus was correcting the notion that his Coming would only be about salvation. It would be salvation only for those who love his appearing. For those who hate his appearance on earth there was to be judgment. And for those who reject our gospel message there will be certain judgment at the 2nd Coming.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    9
    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    My point was in the entire discourse, it's Christians being persecuted not Jews and nothing about everything being flattened and it ends with Jesus returning at the second coming.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Actually it’s Christian Jews being persecuted but I see it as the coming in judgement at the end of the Olivia discourse not the second coming

    the first few verses on Matt 24 mentiones everything being flattened and the disciples ask when and Jesus tells them
    Last edited by marty fox; Nov 25th 2018 at 05:38 AM. Reason: Added info

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    9

    Actually it’s Christian Jews being persecuted
    Christians are Christians...race doesn't matter.

    but I see it as the coming in judgement at the end of the Olivia discourse not the second coming
    Yet the passage I posted does speak of the second coming along with the gathering of the saints which is the rapture.

    the first few verses on Matt 24 mentiones everything being flattened and the disciples ask when and Jesus tells them
    Of course...it's always mentioned before the Olivet discourse because it's not part of the events of that discourse.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I won't quite reach the same conclusion that the 'day people come down from their housetop is the same day that Christ returns'. Since the warning is to not waste time to come down to take stuff from their house before escaping, I'd say that coming down from the rooftop denotes the risk of death and missing the chance to escape.
    Well stated.
    Note that Luke 17 does NOT say, the Day the Son of Man comes (or returns). It is a REVELATION.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    You can't be serious please stop and pray and then reread the verses below and ask God for clarity.

    Luke 19:41-44
    41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

    Jesus plainly states that the reason for the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was because they didn't recognize Him as their Messiah. If you can't agree with the words right out of Jesus' mouth then what bases do you have for understanding any scriptures?

    I say this out of brotherly Love but if you can't agree with what Jesus said in Luke 19 then you are saying that Jesus is wrong and therefore can't be God as God is perfect.

    What do you think Jesus meant?

    I really don't care if you agree with anything I said here accept for not believing in Jesus' words in Luke 19:44.

    The reason God waited is because He is patient and gave the Jews time to repent and 40 years wasn't that much of a long time most people would of still been alive.

    Remember these words below when Pilot addressed the people

    Matthew 27:25
    All the people answered, "His blood is on us and on our children!"
    Yes.................
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  14. #104
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    9

    Actually it’s Christian Jews being persecuted but I see it as the coming in judgement at the end of the Olivia discourse not the second coming

    the first few verses on Matt 24 mentiones everything being flattened and the disciples ask when and Jesus tells them
    I couldn't agree more on this. 1) Jesus says the temple will be flattened. 2) The Disciples ask when this event will take place. 3) Jesus says that after a few preliminary signs it will take place "in this generation."

    This would be so simple except that Jesus' Disciples introduce the idea of Jesus' 2nd Coming into this. They were confused. They saw Jesus as the Messiah, and believed he had come not to flatten the temple, but to save Israel.

    So Jesus engaged in a discussion of when the temple would be flattened in light of the purpose of the 2nd Coming. This is what causes all of the confusion: was Jesus talking primarily about when the temple would be flattened, or about when he would return? In reality, this was a discussion about both events, but primarily about when the temple would be flattened. Discussion of when the 2nd Coming would happen was a clarification of the difference between these 2 events, and an explanation of how they both related.

    Both events, the flattening of the temple and the 2nd Coming, were to be about judgment. The Jews knew the 2nd Coming would be about judging the Gentiles, to liberate the Jews from years of oppression and to give them their final hope.

    What the Jews failed to recognized, however, was that the 2nd Coming would not just be judgment for the Gentiles, but also judgment for the Jews. And it would be salvation not just for the Jews, but also salvation for the Gentiles.

    The gospel of salvation would be preached not just in Israel but also to the ends of the earth. This truth, of Gentile salvation, was somewhat obscured in the time of the Olivet Discourse, but it was part of Jesus' message, that if mercy was to come upon the Jews, it must also come upon those like the Samaritans, who were Gentiles. Just as he had come to bring the message of salvation to the Jews he had also come to bring salvation to the whole world.

    But before this could take place judgment would have to take place both for the Jews and for the Gentiles. Thus, Jesus compared the flattening of the temple with the 2nd Coming. Both events were about salvation, and both were about judgment.

    But they were not the same events. The Jews would be judged first. And then the Gentiles would be judged at the 2nd Coming. But Jesus had come the 1st time to begin the process of judgment upon all. It would only begin with the Jews in Jesus' generation. And after this judgment would be completed in the whole world, salvation would dawn upon all.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Well stated.
    Note that Luke 17 does NOT say, the Day the Son of Man comes (or returns). It is a REVELATION.
    I had thought this before, but I've come to the conclusion that the Revelation and the Coming are synonymous. They are synonymous in NT eschatology, and they basically say the same thing.

    The appearing and coming of the Lord are the *same thing.* The only thing that causes us, in this particular application, to distinguish between them is the assumption that they take place in different contexts. I've resolved this in my own thinking by comparing the Day of Christ's 2nd Coming with the Day in which the Romans came to destroy the temple. They do *sound* like the same Day, but in using a comparison the two separate Days are merged as a language device.

    For example, let me refer to an hypothetical prediction about my own country, the U.S. The US is going to run out of cheap energy resources, and one "day" we will have to go back to primitive means of heating and also turn to alternative energy resources. In that "day" we will need to start using our heads to build alternative energy infrastructure, and prepare simpler, cheaper means of heating our homes.

    In this example, I speak of two separate days because "day" is being used somewhat differently, even though the word refers to a literal day. It is the comparison between the two that make the two days appear to be one. But the day of preparation and the day of actual fulfillment are clearly two separate days!

    Luke 17.30 after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he that shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away,

    The "day that the Son of Man is revealed" is the 2nd Coming. But "in that day" refers to the day that *compares to that day,* the day in which the Romans come to destroy the temple. Both days are days of preparation for judgment. As men are to prepare today for the 2nd Coming and its judgment, so Israel was to prepare in their own time for judgment coming upon them in their own generation. In both cases, it was a similar "day" in which they had to prepare.

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