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Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

  1. #106
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Christians are Christians...race doesn't matter.
    it did to people like Paul before he was converted

    Yet the passage I posted does speak of the second coming along with the gathering of the saints which is the rapture.
    We just read that different you see the second coming I see coming in judgement

    Of course...it's always mentioned before the Olivet discourse because it's not part of the events of that discourse.
    But Jesus says what will happen and then the disciples ask Him when then Jesus tells them when

  2. #107
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I had thought this before, but I've come to the conclusion that the Revelation and the Coming are synonymous. They are synonymous in NT eschatology, and they basically say the same thing.

    The appearing and coming of the Lord are the *same thing.* The only thing that causes us, in this particular application, to distinguish between them is the assumption that they take place in different contexts. I've resolved this in my own thinking by comparing the Day of Christ's 2nd Coming with the Day in which the Romans came to destroy the temple. They do *sound* like the same Day, but in using a comparison the two separate Days are merged as a language device.
    Huh? A language device?
    Sorry, but Luke 17 states unequivocally that on the Day when He is revealed you are to flee.
    Yet the Day when He comes there is NO fleeing. It is IMPOSSIBLE to flee.
    Therefore it is self-evident that it MUST be a different Day.

    For example, let me refer to an hypothetical prediction about my own country, the U.S. The US is going to run out of cheap energy resources, and one "day" we will have to go back to primitive means of heating and also turn to alternative energy resources. In that "day" we will need to start using our heads to build alternative energy infrastructure, and prepare simpler, cheaper means of heating our homes.

    In this example, I speak of two separate days because "day" is being used somewhat differently, even though the word refers to a literal day. It is the comparison between the two that make the two days appear to be one. But the day of preparation and the day of actual fulfillment are clearly two separate days!
    So now are you saying they are different days?

    Luke 17.30 after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he that shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away,
    The "day that the Son of Man is revealed" is the 2nd Coming. But "in that day" refers to the day that *compares to that day,* the day in which the Romans come to destroy the temple. Both days are days of preparation for judgment. As men are to prepare today for the 2nd Coming and its judgment, so Israel was to prepare in their own time for judgment coming upon them in their own generation. In both cases, it was a similar "day" in which they had to prepare.

    Now I get what you are trying to claim.
    Sorry it doesn't work because it makes a NONSENSE of the words "IN THAT DAY..."
    You have to accept that those words mean what they say. As a language device it becomes as LIE, because you are saying it is NOT in THAT Day but a different day.
    I also understand why you say it, because without this claim then your whole AoD idea falls apart, as Luke 17 matches Matt 24.

  3. #108
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    Huh? A language device?
    Sorry, but Luke 17 states unequivocally that on the Day when He is revealed you are to flee.
    Yet the Day when He comes there is NO fleeing. It is IMPOSSIBLE to flee.
    Therefore it is self-evident that it MUST be a different Day.


    So now are you saying they are different days?


    Now I get what you are trying to claim.
    Sorry it doesn't work because it makes a NONSENSE of the words "IN THAT DAY..."
    You have to accept that those words mean what they say. As a language device it becomes as LIE, because you are saying it is NOT in THAT Day but a different day.
    I also understand why you say it, because without this claim then your whole AoD idea falls apart, as Luke 17 matches Matt 24.
    This is how I see it.

    The day Jesus was revealed was the first time the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem. Jesus was revealed as God because He predicted that it would happen within that generation. Not only did He predict what would happen but also when it would happen thus He proved Himself to be God.

    When the Roman army retreated the Christians left Jerusalem they were warned to flee.

    The the bigger Roman army came back and decimated Jerusalem and the ones taken were taken in judgement and Jesus gathered His elect to be saved.

    Mt 24:31
    31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    This is not the rapture it doesn't say gather them up to heaven it just says gather his elect. It even says in verse 29 immediately after those days meaning everything up to that verse in this chapter. If this was the rapture in a way like a lot of people believe it would be before the events of this chapter like the desecration of the temple.

    If this was the rapture then why would Jesus tell us in verse 16 to flee? Why would we flee if we would be shortly raptured?

    The book of Matthew was written to Jews and I believe that they would of understood this verse to be God gathering them from the world onto himself and would of thought back to (not that these were the same events but to understanding the contex)

    Isaiah 11:12

    He will raise a banner for the nations
    and gather the exiles of Israel;
    he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
    from the four quarters of the earth.

    and

    Isaiah 27:12-13

    12 In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, Israel, will be gathered up one by one. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.

    This is after In Mt Ch 23: 37
    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing

    Jesus wanted to gather the Jewish people together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wing (to protect them) but they were not willing. It also says from the four winds of heaven and Jews from all over the earth came to Jerusalem for the passover in 70AD.

    Who are the elect?

    In Mark Ch 13:20
    20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

    I believe the elect are the Jewish people God chose protect the 97000 people did survive like in Romans 11:1-10

  4. #109
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This is how I see it.
    Nobody else saw it at the time.

    Also note what Jesus said:
    Luk 17:22* And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.*

    This is Jesus telling His disciples they would NOT see the Day when He is revealed. I have underlined the words for you.
    Are you saying that NONE of the Disciples were alive to see 70 AD?

    Now Randyk is correct to note that there is MORE THAN one day, and I have put in BOLD the words which state this.
    However it is a REVEALING which Jesus speaks about.

    Your argument about Matt 24:31 is incorrect. Gathering can be by rapture.
    Note also God did NOT gather the Jews AFTER 70 AD, but in fact the reverse.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Nobody else saw it at the time.

    Also note what Jesus said:
    Luk 17:22* And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.*

    This is Jesus telling His disciples they would NOT see the Day when He is revealed. I have underlined the words for you.
    Are you saying that NONE of the Disciples were alive to see 70 AD?

    Now Randyk is correct to note that there is MORE THAN one day, and I have put in BOLD the words which state this.
    However it is a REVEALING which Jesus speaks about.
    Luke 17:22-25
    22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Actually you should of added the following verses as this is Jesus telling His disciples that He will not always be with them physically. They will want to see Him but He won't be there the days of the son of man in this context was His time on the earth. The proof of this is in verse 25

    "25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation."

    Your argument about Matt 24:31 is incorrect. Gathering can be by rapture.
    Note also God did NOT gather the Jews AFTER 70 AD, but in fact the reverse.
    I wasn't saying that God gathered them after 70AD but during it as He protected some of them. See below

    Mark Ch 13:20
    20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

  6. #111
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I couldn't agree more on this. 1) Jesus says the temple will be flattened. 2) The Disciples ask when this event will take place. 3) Jesus says that after a few preliminary signs it will take place "in this generation."
    He never said the temple was to be destroyed in that particular generation. He never said when it would happen plus he die say the second coming would be "in this generation" which obviously didn't happen so in the discourse he speaks of future events that as of yet have not happened.

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Verse 35 does not say, "except verses 30 and 31...I don't mean those events."
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #112
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He never said the temple was to be destroyed in that particular generation. He never said when it would happen plus he die say the second coming would be "in this generation" which obviously didn't happen so in the discourse he speaks of future events that as of yet have not happened.

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Verse 35 does not say, "except verses 30 and 31...I don't mean those events."
    But the temple was destroyed in that generation do you really think that it was just an cowincedence?

    History reveals the truth of prophecy

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But the temple was destroyed in that generation do you really think that it was just an cowincedence?
    Great but none of the events of the discourse happened in that actual generation...and as I show, the second coming was supposed to happen with all of the events of the discourse. No one saw Jesus coming in Ad 70, no one saw angels gathering the elect, the sun and moon weren't dark, no lightning from east to west

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    And Ad 70 was not the greatest tribulation the world would ever see either.

    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    The gospel wasn't preached to the whole world in Ad 70, nor did the end come.

    The entire and whole OD was about the future great trib, the greatest tribulation the world will ever see and it ends with Christ returning.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Great but none of the events of the discourse happened in that actual generation...and as I show, the second coming was supposed to happen with all of the events of the discourse. No one saw Jesus coming in Ad 70, no one saw angels gathering the elect, the sun and moon weren't dark, no lightning from east to west

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    And Ad 70 was not the greatest tribulation the world would ever see either.

    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    The gospel wasn't preached to the whole world in Ad 70, nor did the end come.

    The entire and whole OD was about the future great trib, the greatest tribulation the world will ever see and it ends with Christ returning.
    What if it wasn't the second coming but His coming in judgment? like this coming below

    Isaiah Ch 19:1
    1 See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
    and is coming to Egypt.
    The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
    and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear

    The verse above was a coming in judgement no one actually saw the Lord riding on a cloud

    The signs in the sun moon and stars are symbolic sign of judgement in the verses below Peter says that his days were thes day in Joel chapter 2

    Acts 2:14-21
    14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

    17
    “‘In the last days, God says,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your young men will see visions,
    your old men will dream dreams.
    18
    Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
    and they will prophesy.
    19
    I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    20
    The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
    21
    And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

    Paul states four times that the gospel had reached the whole known world during his days and Luke states that Jews from every nation heard peters surman on the day of Pentecost

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    So? He is still taken into it because God wanted him to make it plus Everyone else that was also taken in.

    Yes because they were not taken into the Ark. They were the left ones, the ones rejected which is why they died.

    Yep, the ones taken in the Ark are the one taken, the one left are those outside the Ark, those left in the city of Sodom.

    No, the passages show that the one left is taken in judgment.

    It6's because I see who the one taken are before any judgment or killing happens. I already have shown you that the first people are always saved and are always the ones who are TAKEN/paralambanō to safety. It is only the last group who are left behind who are the ones that die/or are punished. It's that way in every example given including the ten virgins.

    You constantly confuse TAKEN/paralambanō with taken/airō which doesn't have the same meaning as paralambanō.

    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken (paralambanō not airō), and the other left.
    It's obvious you are stuck on the pre-trib rapture doctrine, and cannot interpret those Luke 17 passages correctly. They are simple, and the translations are clear that those 'taken' are not... taken by our Lord Jesus. There is another teaching by Apostle Paul for attitude like yours for those in the end, and he taught it right after he explained the events of Christ's coming to gather His Church.

    I don't know what to say to convince you of our Lord Jesus' simple analogy and answer at the end of Luke 17, but I do know that the Scripture must be read and understood how it is written, and not torn apart in order to insert a different meaning that is not even there, like you've been trying to do. And this Luke 17 example is only one... of many that the pre-trib rapture doctrine wrongly preaches. I haven't even gotten to the 'thief in the night' idea that Apostles Peter and Paul, and our Lord Jesus spoke of.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    What if it wasn't the second coming but His coming in judgment?
    The second coming is coming in judgment, and wrath. But he leaves heaven and comes here only once not twice.



    Paul states four times that the gospel had reached the whole known world during his days and Luke states that Jews from every nation heard peters surman on the day of Pentecost
    The gospel still hasn't reached the entire world because it's being blocked by nations deceived by Satan.

    Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

    This also hasn't happened because this is when the gospel will be preached to the whole world and it will be God speaking through people.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    It's obvious you are stuck on the pre-trib rapture doctrine, and cannot interpret those Luke 17 passages correctly.
    lol.

    They are simple, and the translations are clear that those 'taken' are not... taken by our Lord Jesus.

    The taken are taken by Christ. It's a reference to the rapture at the second coming.


    There is another teaching by Apostle Paul for attitude like yours for those in the end, and he taught it right after he explained the events of Christ's coming to gather His Church.

    "attitude like yours"


    I don't know what to say to convince you of our Lord Jesus' simple analogy and answer at the end of Luke 17, but I do know that the Scripture must be read and understood how it is written, and not torn apart in order to insert a different meaning that is not even there, like you've been trying to do. And this Luke 17 example is only one... of many that the pre-trib rapture doctrine wrongly preaches. I haven't even gotten to the 'thief in the night' idea that Apostles Peter and Paul, and our Lord Jesus spoke of.
    Don't bother. Most of this entire post was a waste of time to type.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The second coming is coming in judgment, and wrath. But he leaves heaven and comes here only once not twice.





    The gospel still hasn't reached the entire world because it's being blocked by nations deceived by Satan.

    Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

    This also hasn't happened because this is when the gospel will be preached to the whole world and it will be God speaking through people.
    Not true Jesus came to Ananias in a vision in acts 9

    What happened in mark 13 is exactly what happened to Stephen right before he died

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Not true Jesus came to Ananias in a vision in acts 9
    Visions don't matter. I'm talking about an actual coming.

    What happened in mark 13 is exactly what happened to Stephen right before he died
    No, what I quoted doesn't match Stephen at all. It's the great trib, what the gospels and Rev 11 and 13 describe. It's when the beast and AC rule over the world and Christians are persecuted and killed and two prophets die then resurrect in front of everyone.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Visions don't matter. I'm talking about an actual coming.



    No, what I quoted doesn't match Stephen at all. It's the great trib, what the gospels and Rev 11 and 13 describe. It's when the beast and AC rule over the world and Christians are persecuted and killed and two prophets die then resurrect in front of everyone.
    Jesus is talking to his deciples thats why he uses the word YOU

    Jesus was telling them what will happen to them and we read about it in the book of acts

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