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Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

  1. #121
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Jesus is talking to his deciples thats why he uses the word YOU
    He is speaking to the future generation of Christians reading the prophecies. None of the disciples saw the second coming nor the GT.

    Jesus was telling them what will happen to them and we read about it in the book of acts
    None of the OD is found in Acts. We are still standing on symbolic rooftops looking for the right signs.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He is speaking to the future generation of Christians reading the prophecies. None of the disciples saw the second coming nor the GT.



    None of the OD is found in Acts. We are still standing on symbolic rooftops looking for the right signs.
    I believe the GT started on the day Stephen was martyred and is still happening today. Thats why we see the uncountable multitude in revelation which are the ones who came out of the GT

    The bible doesn’t mention a 7 year GT

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I believe the GT started on the day Stephen was martyred and is still happening today.
    That's just normal Christian persecution and it started long before Stephen.

    The GT cannot start until the beast government rises and controls the world with the AC taking control of it as supreme leader. That's when Christians will be rounded up and killed, and the Apostasy also happening. I am watching for those beginning events to happen on a global scale.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That's just normal Christian persecution and it started long before Stephen.

    The GT cannot start until the beast government rises and controls the world with the AC taking control of it as supreme leader. That's when Christians will be rounded up and killed, and the Apostasy also happening. I am watching for those beginning events to happen on a global scale.
    That wasn’t just normal Christian persecution the bible says that on that day a great persecution started led by Paul and every Christian except the deciples had to flee

    Christians have been round up and killed ever since that sounds like the GT to m
    Last edited by marty fox; Nov 26th 2018 at 04:28 AM. Reason: Added info

  5. #125
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    That wasn’t just normal Christian persecution the bible says that on that day a great persecution started led by Paul and every Christian except the deciples had to flee

    Christians have been round up and killed ever since that sounds like the GT to m
    It pales in comparison to what happens in the GT plus no persecuters are going to convert to Christianity during the GT either.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #126
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Luke 17:22-25
    22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
    Actually you should of added the following verses as this is Jesus telling His disciples that He will not always be with them physically. They will want to see Him but He won't be there the days of the son of man in this context was His time on the earth. The proof of this is in verse 25

    "25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation."
    This doesn't help your argument.
    It is correct that Jesus would be leaving them.
    Yet though they would see His death they wouldn't see one of those days.

    I wasn't saying that God gathered them after 70AD but during it as He protected some of them. See below
    Mark Ch 13:20
    20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
    No He didn't gather them in 70 AD or shortly before, nor did He protect some of them.
    The simple statement is - Stay and die. Flee and live!
    This time has not yet happened.

  7. #127
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    Huh? A language device?
    Sorry, but Luke 17 states unequivocally that on the Day when He is revealed you are to flee.
    Yet the Day when He comes there is NO fleeing. It is IMPOSSIBLE to flee.
    Therefore it is self-evident that it MUST be a different Day.


    So now are you saying they are different days?


    Now I get what you are trying to claim.
    Sorry it doesn't work because it makes a NONSENSE of the words "IN THAT DAY..."
    You have to accept that those words mean what they say. As a language device it becomes as LIE, because you are saying it is NOT in THAT Day but a different day.
    I also understand why you say it, because without this claim then your whole AoD idea falls apart, as Luke 17 matches Matt 24.
    Yes, I believe 2 separate days are being treated as 1 by means of a "language device." Jesus has indicated that preparation for the day of his coming is not possible by looking at it on the calendar. So he treated it as a generalized era of judgment, to be guarded against by righteous living. The 2nd Coming would be far off into the future, at the end of a long period of Jewish Diaspora. But the time to prepare was in the immediate generation, when judgment was already at the door.

  8. #128
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He never said the temple was to be destroyed in that particular generation. He never said when it would happen plus he die say the second coming would be "in this generation" which obviously didn't happen so in the discourse he speaks of future events that as of yet have not happened.

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Verse 35 does not say, "except verses 30 and 31...I don't mean those events."
    The assumption has to be made that Jesus is answering not just one, but two questions. When will be the destruction of the temple, and when will be the 2nd Coming? These raised two separate issues. One was the issue of Israel's preparation for the Kingdom. Israel was *not* in a good place, and thus not ready for the Kingdom of God.


    And secondly, there was the issue of the 2nd Coming, which had to do with the coming of the Kingdom. And like I said, since Israel was not ready for the Kingdom of God, neither was she ready for the coming of the Kingdom.

    So obviously, the 2nd Coming is not going to be one of the signs of when the temple will be destroyed! The temple destruction was merely an indication that Israel was not yet ready for the 2nd Coming and for the coming of the Kingdom.

    "All these things" that were to happen as signs of when the temple would be destroyed were things that obviously preceded that event--things like wars and rumors of wars, and the various sins that precede divine judgment. The gospel would be preached as a warning of that event, and Christians would be persecuted in anticipation of that event. But the ultimate sign of when the temple would be destroyed would be the gathering of Roman soldiers like eagles gathered to a corpse. Israel simply was not yet ready for the Kingdom of God. And Jesus was just stating that these things were evidence of that fact. The temple would be destroyed. And Israel would be sent into exile throughout the NT period. The 2nd Coming would take place at the end of a long era of Jewish Diaspora.

    The signs that Jesus gave would be but the initial birth pains of the Kingdom, showing that Israel's destiny had come to the place of Christian fulfillment, and yet would fail. Summer would come, and there would be no harvest. Jesus was telling his disciples not to expect an immediate realization of the Kingdom of God in Israel, but to rather expect a revelation of judgment. Preparation for the Kingdom would be by personal repentance, and not by expectation of imminent deliverance, since Israel was not in a good place, as far as salvation goes.

    I don't know why you continue to assert that Jesus wasn't talking about the destruction of the temple? That is plainly what he taught, and I provided all of the relevant verses. The fact this event is connected, intellectually, with the 2nd Coming doesn't make it any less a reality. Clearly, the fall of Jerusalem was being predicted, and it was given to be a precursor to the coming of the Kingdom of God, which would be a day of judgment. We are to prepare for that day in all eras because judgment is at the door in all eras. The day of Christ's coming is something that must be prepared for now, through righteous living. It is not something to prepare for as by a calendar event.
    Last edited by randyk; Nov 28th 2018 at 03:44 AM.

  9. #129
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I believe 2 separate days are being treated as 1 by means of a "language device." Jesus has indicated that preparation for the day of his coming is not possible by looking at it on the calendar. So he treated it as a generalized era of judgment, to be guarded against by righteous living. The 2nd Coming would be far off into the future, at the end of a long period of Jewish Diaspora. But the time to prepare was in the immediate generation, when judgment was already at the door.
    When people claim "language devices" and "generalisations" then they are NOT reading what is clearly stated but fudging things.
    He did NOT treat it as a "generalized era" of judgement. he was in fact VERY precise.
    He gave a specific sign to look for and gave details of what to do.
    He did not say you need to live righteously to deal with this, but rather gave it expecting them to respond and be looking.

    There was NOTHING in Luke 17 which was for them as He EXPRESSLY stated that the disciples would NOT see such a day.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    lol.

    The taken are taken by Christ. It's a reference to the rapture at the second coming.
    Luke 17 is not a reference to a rapture. It's a reference to those 'taken' being deceived, which is what Jesus' answer about those like a dead carcase being where the birds are gathered.

    Pre-trib rapture preachers do the same wrong preaching with the "as a thief in the night" idea by Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:

    1 Thess 5:1-6
    5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    KJV



    We find those on the pre-trib rapture doctrine today trying to preach that the "day of the Lord" begins at the start of the time of "great tribulation" that Jesus taught. That is when they also teach this "as a thief in the night" timing is also, pointing to their false belief of the Church being raptured out before the tribulation at the very end of this world.

    In reality though, Paul in 1 Thess.5 was preaching from the Old Testament prophets like Isaiah about the coming "day of the Lord" when the wicked and deceived will be saying that, "Peace and safety" phrase, and then a "sudden destruction" comes upon them. It's because the "day of the Lord" for the end of this world which the Old Testament prophets spoke of is about the day of Christ's final coming to end the wicked's reign on earth and instead establishing His de facto reign over all nations and peoples. That is the timing Paul was preaching about in 1 Thess.5 that will come "as a thief in the night", and it's because that's about a surprise upon the nations who will instead will be thinking "Peace and safety". That day of Christ's return is not supposed to surprise us, His Church, which is what Paul is saying in the 1 Thess.5:4 verse.


    Apostle Peter showed what timing that "day of the Lord" is also, as he also used that "as a thief in the night" analogy:

    2 Peter 3:10-12
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    KJV


    Peter revealed God's consuming fire is what also happens on that "day of the Lord", burning man's works off this earth on that day. That of course means the reign of the wicked on earth will be over at that point in time, as it is the timing of Jesus' return to reign over all the earth, literally.

    So how can that happen PRIOR to the great tribulation with the wicked continuing to reign, which is what pre-trib preaches? It cannot. The wicked's reign on earth is all over when that "day of the Lord" begins, so of course there can be no tribulation period after that.


    But the pre-trib rapture doctrine of men instead preaches a falsehood on 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10, teaching men's ideas by saying that "day of the Lord" (and thus that consuming fire) will happen before... the tribulation starts. It does not of course, as it's very easy to see by what Apostle Peter showed with God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth on that day.

    It's also easy to know that "day of the Lord" is the very end of this world when Jesus returns to rule on earth by what the Old Testament prophets taught, which is where Paul was preaching from in 1 Thess.5, right after he showed how Jesus gathers His Church.


    But instead what does men's doctrine of a pre-trib rapture preach? It preaches there are two comings by Jesus at the end, one to gather His Church PRIOR to the great tribulation, which they wrongly teach begins with the "day of the Lord" "as a thief in the night", and then that Jesus returns with... His Church on the final day of this world, which they do not associate with the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". All backwards!

    Pre-trib has it all backwards, just like with the first one 'taken' in Luke 17.



    It's so obvious those on pre-trib doctrines of men do not even take time to study where Apostle Paul and Peter were pulling from when teaching about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". They got it from the OT prophets.

    Nah 1:5-10
    5 The mountains quake at Him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at His presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
    6 Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by Him.
    7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and He knoweth them that trust in Him.
    8 But with an overrunning flood He will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue His enemies.
    9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
    10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
    KJV



    Isa 29:5-8
    5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

    6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

    7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

    8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
    KJV

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The assumption has to be made that Jesus is answering not just one, but two questions.
    Yes which proves all the events he said one generation would see is different than the gen that saw the temple destroyed.

    He said one generation would see "all these things" that he spoke of during the OD which includes the great trib, the AoD and the second coming which ends the GT and the reign of the AoD.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    When people claim "language devices" and "generalisations" then they are NOT reading what is clearly stated but fudging things.
    He did NOT treat it as a "generalized era" of judgement. he was in fact VERY precise.
    He gave a specific sign to look for and gave details of what to do.
    He did not say you need to live righteously to deal with this, but rather gave it expecting them to respond and be looking.

    There was NOTHING in Luke 17 which was for them as He EXPRESSLY stated that the disciples would NOT see such a day.
    That makes no sense to me. He was speaking to his Disciples, and you say none of what he said to them applied to them? So I disagree with you. Jesus was warning the immediate generation that his 1st Coming was not just for Salvation, but also for Judgment. And the age itself would be characterized by judgment because Israel would remain in unbelief, and the world at large would tend towards unbelief as well.

    There is no warning by which men may prepare for the judgment at the 2nd Coming. The only sign of the end of the age is Jesus' Coming itself. By the time he comes, it is too late to prepare. The only way to prepare for Jesus' Coming is by following Jesus today.

    Jesus clearly made the entire age an age of judgment for the Jewish People. They would be dispersed throughout the world, and would linger in unbelief until the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled. In the meantime only a remnant would be saved.

    This makes the age an age of Jewish unbelief, while at the same time the Gentiles who oppress the Jews can be characterized as oppressors and resistant to faith as well. This is a "generalized period of judgment," which only waits on behalf of God's patience. But it regularly strikes Man throughout the present evil age.

    Jesus gave warning to the Jews of his time. But he didn't tell them specifically how long God would be patient. As it was, the judgment that fell upon Israel took place a full 40 years after Jesus said these things. God's patience waited, but only for a time. This is indeed an era of judgment. It began with Israel, but it continues through this age of unbelief and oppression. There will be no warning of judgment at the end of the age, but the sign of Jesus only. And we can only prepare for him by following him now.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes which proves all the events he said one generation would see is different than the gen that saw the temple destroyed.

    He said one generation would see "all these things" that he spoke of during the OD which includes the great trib, the AoD and the second coming which ends the GT and the reign of the AoD.
    The problem with your view is that the Great Tribulation is the current Jewish Diaspora of the NT age, and not strictly the "tribulation" associated with the reign of Antichrist. And the 2nd Coming was not included among the things that heralded the fall of the temple. Jesus plainly referred to the signs of the temple destruction as "birth pains." In other words, these signs were not inclusive of future generations, but only the signs within Christ's generation that led to the destruction of the temple.

    In other words, Jesus was *not* talking about the generation that would see his Return. Rather, he was speaking of the generation that would see "wars and rumors of wars," "earthquakes and famines," "Christian persecution," "hostility among the Jews," the preaching of the gospel," and ultimately, the fall of the temple. This is what Jesus specifically was speaking of. The 2nd Coming was the 2nd question--not the 1st question.

  14. #134
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The problem with your view is that the Great Tribulation is the current Jewish Diaspora of the NT age, and not strictly the "tribulation" associated with the reign of Antichrist.
    It is according to scripture.

    And the 2nd Coming was not included among the things that heralded the fall of the temple.
    I know. None of the OD is related to the fall of the temple.


    In other words, Jesus was *not* talking about the generation that would see his Return.
    yes he is:

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



    Rather, he was speaking of the generation that would see "wars and rumors of wars," "earthquakes and famines," "Christian persecution," "hostility among the Jews," the preaching of the gospel," and ultimately, the fall of the temple. This is what Jesus specifically was speaking of. The 2nd Coming was the 2nd question--not the 1st question.
    The temple falling isn't part of the OD. All of the OD speaks of the future great trib against Christians and ending with the return of Christ. It isn't a surprise we also see the trib in Rev and it ends with the return of Christ.

    Your issue is trying to force Ad 70 into the OD. You even say it's the main theme yet it isn't mentioned a single time in the discourse. In fact, the AoD stands in the temple during the GT and doesn't destroy it. Only at the end of the trib in Rev 11 does a tenth of the entire city fall from an earthquake...which leaves 90 percent standing. Another difference between the GT and what happened in Ad 70. Then After the second coming Rev 16 shows the vials of wrath and the 7th has the greatest earthquake in all of human history which divides the city in thirds...still not a total flattening of temple and city.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That makes no sense to me. He was speaking to his Disciples, and you say none of what he said to them applied to them? So I disagree with you. Jesus was warning the immediate generation that his 1st Coming was not just for Salvation, but also for Judgment. And the age itself would be characterized by judgment because Israel would remain in unbelief, and the world at large would tend towards unbelief as well.
    As He said "You will NOT see..." then that means He was telling them for the purpose of FUTURE disciples.
    They were to UNDERSTAND that He was NOT coming at that time.

    There is no warning by which men may prepare for the judgment at the 2nd Coming. The only sign of the end of the age is Jesus' Coming itself. By the time he comes, it is too late to prepare. The only way to prepare for Jesus' Coming is by following Jesus today.
    Incorrect we have MANY MANY scriptures which speak of what will happen.
    We have Revelation for starters.
    Then we have Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 as well as OT prophecies and more.

    Jesus clearly made the entire age an age of judgment for the Jewish People. They would be dispersed throughout the world, and would linger in unbelief until the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled. In the meantime only a remnant would be saved.
    Luke is about the Diaspora so about the Jews, Matthew is about the Church.

    This makes the age an age of Jewish unbelief, while at the same time the Gentiles who oppress the Jews can be characterized as oppressors and resistant to faith as well. This is a "generalized period of judgment," which only waits on behalf of God's patience. But it regularly strikes Man throughout the present evil age.

    Jesus gave warning to the Jews of his time. But he didn't tell them specifically how long God would be patient. As it was, the judgment that fell upon Israel took place a full 40 years after Jesus said these things. God's patience waited, but only for a time. This is indeed an era of judgment. It began with Israel, but it continues through this age of unbelief and oppression. There will be no warning of judgment at the end of the age, but the sign of Jesus only. And we can only prepare for him by following him now.
    There is plenty of warning of judgement but will people listen.

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