Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 173

Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    128

    Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    One of the ideas brethren on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are taught from Luke 17 is about being the first one 'taken'. They are told the first 'taken' will be Jesus pulling them out of this world, escaping just before the time of "great tribulation" begins. In reality, Luke 17 does not teach any such idea as that, as shown in the following Scripture:

    Luke 17:26-37
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    This first example our Lord Jesus gave is about being protected inside the ark while those outside were busy with the ways of this life when the flood came upon them and destroyed them. Noah's ark rode on top of those waters of the flood for 150 days. He and his didn't escape the flood, they went through it.


    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Now Lot and his were led out by the two angels, and then God destroyed those cities with the wicked, the idea being their sudden destruction while God protected His (they didn't have to leave the earth).


    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    This Scripture is also used to preach the "be ye also ready" idea Jesus said (Matt.24:44). His meaning was that He wants to find us busy doing His work when He comes, and not busy with the ways of the world so that we forget about the end of all things.


    Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    This is a special Message for those who understand. In that time of the end, those who seek to save their lives shall lose them. How's that? In that our Lord means if you're busy in the ways of this world and are not prepared with the Gospel Armour on, ready even to the death if needs be, then you could lose your soul. Those who will be seeking to 'save' their life at the end of this world will be in agreement with the coming Antichrist and his ways. It will mean taking the mark and bowing to his image.

    But whosoever shall lose their life, meaning for Christ in making a stand for Him, will have preserved their soul unto Him unto everlasting life. His Message in just this one verse is for us to be prepared to make a stand for Him, even to the death, and do not fear death, like Matt.10:28. That's a lot different than what those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are preaching, isn't it?




    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them,
    "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    KJV

    Here again is a Scripture that the Pre-trib Rapture preachers abuse, because it is not about the Church escaping at all.

    Jesus says two men in one bed, one taken the other left, two women grinding at the mill, one taken, the other left, two men in one field, the one taken, the other left. So naturally, His disciples then turn to Him and ask Him, "Where, Lord?" They want to know where those 1st ones 'taken' will be taken to!

    Here's another version of our Lord Jesus' answer to them:

    Matt 24:28
    28
    For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV


    That word "carcase" in the Greek means literally a dead body. Our Lord used that to compare those first ones 'taken' being like dead bodies gathered to where the eagles will be gathered. The idea is for a meal (spiritually) those birds will have on their dead bodies (also spiritual sense).

    The idea is about deception. That was our Lord Jesus' very first warning sign for the end of this world. He gave several examples in His Gospel about peoples alive walking on the earth but inside, their spiritual status was like a tomb full of dead men's bones. So He taught the idea of being spiritually dead inside regarding one's soul who rejects Him, even while their flesh body is still alive walking upon the earth.

    When the coming Antichrist arrives and demands all to bow to him in place of God, what will that do to one's soul who agrees? It will make them spiritually like a dead "carcase", and they will be gathered to be supped on by... the followers of the Antichrist, as they will disguise themselves as "eagles". That is where the first one 'taken' will be taken to. It is not to our Lord Jesus, it will be to the coming pseudo-Messiah in Jerusalem, for that is the coming Antichrist.

    What about the "eagles" symbol, how does that apply here, because it's actually vultures that go after a carcase that is already dead? Fly like eagles is more in the sense of what the Pre-trib Rapture idea teaches. But remember in 2 Corinthians 11 Apostle Paul said no marvel, for the Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness? In 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Paul showed the coming Antichrist will exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

    So 'where', like Christ's disciples asked, is that place where those fake "eagles" will be? and where will those taken be taken to?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,773

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    One of the ideas brethren on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are taught from Luke 17 is about being the first one 'taken'. They are told the first 'taken' will be Jesus pulling them out of this world, escaping just before the time of "great tribulation" begins. In reality, Luke 17 does not teach any such idea as that, as shown in the following Scripture:

    Luke 17:26-37
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    This first example our Lord Jesus gave is about being protected inside the ark while those outside were busy with the ways of this life when the flood came upon them and destroyed them. Noah's ark rode on top of those waters of the flood for 150 days. He and his didn't escape the flood, they went through it.


    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Now Lot and his were led out by the two angels, and then God destroyed those cities with the wicked, the idea being their sudden destruction while God protected His (they didn't have to leave the earth).


    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    This Scripture is also used to preach the "be ye also ready" idea Jesus said (Matt.24:44). His meaning was that He wants to find us busy doing His work when He comes, and not busy with the ways of the world so that we forget about the end of all things.


    Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    This is a special Message for those who understand. In that time of the end, those who seek to save their lives shall lose them. How's that? In that our Lord means if you're busy in the ways of this world and are not prepared with the Gospel Armour on, ready even to the death if needs be, then you could lose your soul. Those who will be seeking to 'save' their life at the end of this world will be in agreement with the coming Antichrist and his ways. It will mean taking the mark and bowing to his image.

    But whosoever shall lose their life, meaning for Christ in making a stand for Him, will have preserved their soul unto Him unto everlasting life. His Message in just this one verse is for us to be prepared to make a stand for Him, even to the death, and do not fear death, like Matt.10:28. That's a lot different than what those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are preaching, isn't it?
    [COLOR=#000080]



    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."


    Here again is a Scripture that the Pre-trib Rapture preachers abuse, because it is not about the Church escaping at all.

    Jesus says two men in one bed, one taken the other left, two women grinding at the mill, one taken, the other left, two men in one field, the one taken, the other left. So naturally, His disciples then turn to Him and ask Him, "Where, Lord?" They want to know where those 1st ones 'taken' will be taken to!

    Here's another version of our Lord Jesus' answer to them:

    Matt 24:28
    28
    For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV


    That word "carcase" in the Greek means literally a dead body. Our Lord used that to compare those first ones 'taken' being like dead bodies gathered to where the eagles will be gathered. The idea is for a meal (spiritually) those birds will have on their dead bodies (also spiritual sense).

    The idea is about deception. That was our Lord Jesus' very first warning sign for the end of this world. He gave several examples in His Gospel about peoples alive walking on the earth but inside, their spiritual status was like a tomb full of dead men's bones. So He taught the idea of being spiritually dead inside regarding one's soul who rejects Him, even while their flesh body is still alive walking upon the earth.

    When the coming Antichrist arrives and demands all to bow to him in place of God, what will that do to one's soul who agrees? It will make them spiritually like a dead "carcase", and they will be gathered to be supped on by... the followers of the Antichrist, as they will disguise themselves as "eagles". That is where the first one 'taken' will be taken to. It is not to our Lord Jesus, it will be to the coming pseudo-Messiah in Jerusalem, for that is the coming Antichrist.

    What about the "eagles" symbol, how does that apply here, because it's actually vultures that go after a carcase that is already dead? Fly like eagles is more in the sense of what the Pre-trib Rapture idea teaches. But remember in 2 Corinthians 11 Apostle Paul said no marvel, for the Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness? In 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Paul showed the coming Antichrist will exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

    So 'where', like Christ's disciples asked, is that place where those fake "eagles" will be? and where will those taken be taken to?
    Up until Luke 17:32 you only produced verses that apply to the UNBELIEVER. They carry no weight for your discussion. God's wrath and destruction is promised on these men and women, and even "all flesh". So to bring them into your argument is moot.

    Therefore, I pick up your argument in the red bold Luke 17:34-37. There you have to decide for yourself if you been true to the Greek word "taken". The Greek word rendered "taken" in verses 35 and 36 is, "paralambano". It means "taken as an intimate companion". Its first mention, 3 times, in Matthew 1:20, 1:24 and 2:13 shows its meaning. It is Joseph "taking" Mary to be his wife TWICE, and the THIRD time, "taking" Mary's child, Jesus with as an intimate companion. I fear you have not taken this into account, for your meaning is that you have CONTINUED with the UNBELIEVER as "taken" in judgement - another Greek word altogether. And verse 33 changes the CONTEXT to from unbeliever to believer - as you have said in your commentary. Thus, verses 34 to 37 talk of who is "taken as an intimate companion" and who is LEFT behind.

    As to verse 33 the word "life" is actually "Psuche" - the soul-life. Thus, the verse simply says that those who seek to preserve their "soul-life" will, at a future date, lose their "soul-life", and those that lose it as disciples of Jesus, will, at a future date , gain it back. There is NO TALK of physical death here! The LIFE that a man loses when he stops breathing is "bios" in the Greek (e.g. Mark 12:44, Luke 8:14). The best example of this difference is our Lord Jesus and His death. On that fateful Passover, our Lord Jesus dies TWICE. In Gethsemane, He goes ahead alone and cries out and sweats blood. He cries, "... My soul (Psuche - Gk) is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... ." (Matthew 26:38). The death of the soul is extreme SORROW! What faced Him was too excruciating. The pending separation from His Father in heaven, the indifference of His disciples, the betrayal of His disciple of three years - Judas, the suffering He would face on the cross, the humiliation, the weakness, the disgrace - all produced a SORROW which He calls the "death of His SOUL". Then at 9 a.m. He is nailed to the cross and dies physically (bios) at 3 p.m., all the while still suffering extreme sorrow (of the soul- Psuche).

    The DIFFERENCE between these TWO deaths is clearly seen in Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    So your argument concerning dying for the Lord in Luke 17:33 is not correct. What is meant is that those faithful Christians, by denying their souls in this age, will be clothed with GLADNESS in the next age. And it is those Christians who deny their SOUL unto death, like our Lord Jesus did, will, AT THE JUDGMENT, when the Lord returns, "... enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21-23)!

    The true meaning of Luke 17:33-37 is that there are TWO types of Christian at the Second Coming of the Lord:
    1. Christians who have lost their soul-life by denying them selves as the lord required over and over from His disciples
    2. Christians who did NOT lose their soul-lives by pandering to themselves in this age

    The Christians of FIRST type will be TAKEN ("paralambano") as intimate companions of Jesus, while the Christians of the SECOND type will be "LEFT"(behind). And the question leveled at the Lord Jesus in verse 37, is; "LORD, IF THEY ARE 'LEFT', WHERE ARE THEY 'LEFT'"? And the Lord's reply is that they are "LEFT" at the same place as the Great Slaughter is. Since about two thirds of men will be killed by the Great Tribulation, and another massive contingent will be slaughtered at Armageddon, the PLACE where the slothful and self-serving Christian is "LEFT" is ON EARTH!

    Finally, Lot and his wife are not just mentioned in passing. They form a TYPE of this matter of one BELIEVER "taken as an intimate companion" and one BELIEVER "left behind" on earth. The narrative of Lot contains THREE elements. They are;
    1. Abraham's condition and PLACE - for it was Abraham's INTERCESSION that saved Lot (Gen.19:29)
    2. Lot's condition and PLACE
    3. Lot's wife's condition and PLACE

    • Abraham is, at the moment of judgement, found "ON HIGH" - the plain of Mamre near Hebron which means "fellowship", or "association". Hebron's elevation is 3,000 Ft above sea level. Abraham PLACE depicts (is a Type of) the Christian ON HIGH as an "intimate companion" of the Lord, and his condition was one of INTIMATE FELLOWSHIP.
    • Lot, called "JUST Lot" in 2nd Peter 2:7, first chose the luxurious area of Sodom, then "pitched his tent towards Sodom", then "dwelt in Sodom", and finally was involved in the leadership of Sodom (the "gates" where the elders meet - Deut.21:19). Lot lived by sight and chose the best place and situation for HIMSELF. He satisfies his SOUL. But his choice comes under judgement. He is NOT "taken as an intimate companion of the Lord" but forcefully by two angels to a wilderness at the south eastern point of the Dead Sea - elevation 1,500 ft BELOW sea level - a difference of 4,500 ft to Abraham. He then gets drunk and is abused by his daughters to produce two of Israel's most vindictive enemies. He depicts the slothful, selfish, fleshly Christian who pandered to his "soul-life". His life (bios) is saved but not caught UP ON HIGH like Abraham.
    • Lot's wife is saved from judgement by fire by the angels. But her heart is still in the city of destruction. She yearns for the life of pleasure and the fame of her husbands involvement of the leadership of the city and its politics. She becomes a pillar of salt. Now, Christians are "salt" (Matt.5:13), and "salt" is positive in the Bible. But salt is only good for preventing corruption if it is SPREAD on the corrupting elements. A "pillar" is a long effigy - much salt - but with a very small base. That is, Lot's wife should have at least been effective as salt - as a Christian. But she is NOT SPREAD. She only touches small area of earth. Lot's wife thus depicts the Christians caught in Commercial Babylon when the Lord returns. In Revelation 18:4 it is; "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    Thus, the mention of Lot in Luke 17 STRENGTHENS the argument that ...
    1. SOME Believers will be raptured before the coming Judgment
    2. SOME Believers will pass through the Great Tribulation in a "wilderness" (Revelation Chapters 7, 12 & 13)
    3. SOME Believers will be caught IN Babylon the Great (Commercial Babylon) and suffer of her "plagues", but remain useless as a testimony on earth like salt that covers no area (Rev.18).

    I dare say you know such Christians yourself.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,950
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Up until Luke 17:32 you only produced verses that apply to the UNBELIEVER. They carry no weight for your discussion. God's wrath and destruction is promised on these men and women, and even "all flesh". So to bring them into your argument is moot.

    Therefore, I pick up your argument in the red bold Luke 17:34-37. There you have to decide for yourself if you been true to the Greek word "taken". The Greek word rendered "taken" in verses 35 and 36 is, "paralambano". It means "taken as an intimate companion". Its first mention, 3 times, in Matthew 1:20, 1:24 and 2:13 shows its meaning. It is Joseph "taking" Mary to be his wife TWICE, and the THIRD time, "taking" Mary's child, Jesus with as an intimate companion. I fear you have not taken this into account, for your meaning is that you have CONTINUED with the UNBELIEVER as "taken" in judgement - another Greek word altogether. And verse 33 changes the CONTEXT to from unbeliever to believer - as you have said in your commentary. Thus, verses 34 to 37 talk of who is "taken as an intimate companion" and who is LEFT behind.

    As to verse 33 the word "life" is actually "Psuche" - the soul-life. Thus, the verse simply says that those who seek to preserve their "soul-life" will, at a future date, lose their "soul-life", and those that lose it as disciples of Jesus, will, at a future date , gain it back. There is NO TALK of physical death here! The LIFE that a man loses when he stops breathing is "bios" in the Greek (e.g. Mark 12:44, Luke 8:14). The best example of this difference is our Lord Jesus and His death. On that fateful Passover, our Lord Jesus dies TWICE. In Gethsemane, He goes ahead alone and cries out and sweats blood. He cries, "... My soul (Psuche - Gk) is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... ." (Matthew 26:38). The death of the soul is extreme SORROW! What faced Him was too excruciating. The pending separation from His Father in heaven, the indifference of His disciples, the betrayal of His disciple of three years - Judas, the suffering He would face on the cross, the humiliation, the weakness, the disgrace - all produced a SORROW which He calls the "death of His SOUL". Then at 9 a.m. He is nailed to the cross and dies physically (bios) at 3 p.m., all the while still suffering extreme sorrow (of the soul- Psuche).

    The DIFFERENCE between these TWO deaths is clearly seen in Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    So your argument concerning dying for the Lord in Luke 17:33 is not correct. What is meant is that those faithful Christians, by denying their souls in this age, will be clothed with GLADNESS in the next age. And it is those Christians who deny their SOUL unto death, like our Lord Jesus did, will, AT THE JUDGMENT, when the Lord returns, "... enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21-23)!

    The true meaning of Luke 17:33-37 is that there are TWO types of Christian at the Second Coming of the Lord:
    1. Christians who have lost their soul-life by denying them selves as the lord required over and over from His disciples
    2. Christians who did NOT lose their soul-lives by pandering to themselves in this age

    The Christians of FIRST type will be TAKEN ("paralambano") as intimate companions of Jesus, while the Christians of the SECOND type will be "LEFT"(behind). And the question leveled at the Lord Jesus in verse 37, is; "LORD, IF THEY ARE 'LEFT', WHERE ARE THEY 'LEFT'"? And the Lord's reply is that they are "LEFT" at the same place as the Great Slaughter is. Since about two thirds of men will be killed by the Great Tribulation, and another massive contingent will be slaughtered at Armageddon, the PLACE where the slothful and self-serving Christian is "LEFT" is ON EARTH!

    Finally, Lot and his wife are not just mentioned in passing. They form a TYPE of this matter of one BELIEVER "taken as an intimate companion" and one BELIEVER "left behind" on earth. The narrative of Lot contains THREE elements. They are;
    1. Abraham's condition and PLACE - for it was Abraham's INTERCESSION that saved Lot (Gen.19:29)
    2. Lot's condition and PLACE
    3. Lot's wife's condition and PLACE

    • Abraham is, at the moment of judgement, found "ON HIGH" - the plain of Mamre near Hebron which means "fellowship", or "association". Hebron's elevation is 3,000 Ft above sea level. Abraham PLACE depicts (is a Type of) the Christian ON HIGH as an "intimate companion" of the Lord, and his condition was one of INTIMATE FELLOWSHIP.
    • Lot, called "JUST Lot" in 2nd Peter 2:7, first chose the luxurious area of Sodom, then "pitched his tent towards Sodom", then "dwelt in Sodom", and finally was involved in the leadership of Sodom (the "gates" where the elders meet - Deut.21:19). Lot lived by sight and chose the best place and situation for HIMSELF. He satisfies his SOUL. But his choice comes under judgement. He is NOT "taken as an intimate companion of the Lord" but forcefully by two angels to a wilderness at the south eastern point of the Dead Sea - elevation 1,500 ft BELOW sea level - a difference of 4,500 ft to Abraham. He then gets drunk and is abused by his daughters to produce two of Israel's most vindictive enemies. He depicts the slothful, selfish, fleshly Christian who pandered to his "soul-life". His life (bios) is saved but not caught UP ON HIGH like Abraham.
    • Lot's wife is saved from judgement by fire by the angels. But her heart is still in the city of destruction. She yearns for the life of pleasure and the fame of her husbands involvement of the leadership of the city and its politics. She becomes a pillar of salt. Now, Christians are "salt" (Matt.5:13), and "salt" is positive in the Bible. But salt is only good for preventing corruption if it is SPREAD on the corrupting elements. A "pillar" is a long effigy - much salt - but with a very small base. That is, Lot's wife should have at least been effective as salt - as a Christian. But she is NOT SPREAD. She only touches small area of earth. Lot's wife thus depicts the Christians caught in Commercial Babylon when the Lord returns. In Revelation 18:4 it is; "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    Thus, the mention of Lot in Luke 17 STRENGTHENS the argument that ...
    1. SOME Believers will be raptured before the coming Judgment
    2. SOME Believers will pass through the Great Tribulation in a "wilderness" (Revelation Chapters 7, 12 & 13)
    3. SOME Believers will be caught IN Babylon the Great (Commercial Babylon) and suffer of her "plagues", but remain useless as a testimony on earth like salt that covers no area (Rev.18).

    I dare say you know such Christians yourself.
    Some nice arguments and good comments about denying self etc. However totally moot as you don't seem to follow what is even happening in Luke 17.

    Luk 17:22* And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.*
    Luk 17:23* And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them.

    Notice the CONTEXT.
    It is about a day of the Son of Man.
    Now do you get the connection where else this passage is mentioned?
    Perhaps this might help?:
    Luk 17:31* On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.*
    Luk 17:32* Remember Lot's wife.

    I hope you have recognised this is part of the Olivet Discourse.

    Mat 24:15* “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),*
    Mat 24:16* then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.*
    Mat 24:17* Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,*
    Mat 24:18* and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.*

    Now ANYONE who reads Luke 17 SHOULD recognise this is the SAME instruction as that in Matt 24.
    Is Matt 24 speaking about a rapture? Certainly NOT!
    If this was the rapture THEN it would be pointless to flee as you would be raptured!
    No, this is speaking about the START of the GT. a time when those who are in Jerusalem need to flee.

    There was a note about who is being addressed. The FACT is that EVERYONE who is there will need to heed these words.
    Ezekiel was instructed to blow the trumpet when the trouble came. Those who then responded may be saved.
    The argument about the Greek, simply shows that a person who is taken is not taken at a distance, but it is close quarters.
    Zechariah makes note of those who are taken:
    Zec 14:2* For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped.


    Now rape is I believe intimate and not a way that anyone wants to be taken.

    This is NOT about two types of Christians, but simply about two groups.
    One group responds to the warning and flees, the other does not and so is taken.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,773

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Some nice arguments and good comments about denying self etc. However totally moot as you don't seem to follow what is even happening in Luke 17.

    Luk 17:22* And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.*
    Luk 17:23* And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them.

    Notice the CONTEXT.
    It is about a day of the Son of Man.
    Now do you get the connection where else this passage is mentioned?
    Perhaps this might help?:
    Luk 17:31* On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.*
    Luk 17:32* Remember Lot's wife.

    I hope you have recognised this is part of the Olivet Discourse.

    Mat 24:15* “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),*
    Mat 24:16* then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.*
    Mat 24:17* Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,*
    Mat 24:18* and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.*

    Now ANYONE who reads Luke 17 SHOULD recognise this is the SAME instruction as that in Matt 24.
    Is Matt 24 speaking about a rapture? Certainly NOT!
    If this was the rapture THEN it would be pointless to flee as you would be raptured!
    No, this is speaking about the START of the GT. a time when those who are in Jerusalem need to flee.

    There was a note about who is being addressed. The FACT is that EVERYONE who is there will need to heed these words.
    Ezekiel was instructed to blow the trumpet when the trouble came. Those who then responded may be saved.
    The argument about the Greek, simply shows that a person who is taken is not taken at a distance, but it is close quarters.
    Zechariah makes note of those who are taken:
    Zec 14:2* For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped.


    Now rape is I believe intimate and not a way that anyone wants to be taken.

    This is NOT about two types of Christians, but simply about two groups.
    One group responds to the warning and flees, the other does not and so is taken.
    The brother addressed the contents and context of Luke 17. So my answer was about Luke 17. That there are parallels and even identical themes to Matthew 24 and 25 is given, but do I need to divert the OP away from Luke 17 to answer it? Am I called to task because I answered his objection solely from the text he chose? The "abuse" objected to in the OP revolved around three points in Luke 17:
    1. The preparedness of Christians to die physically
    2. The meaning of word "taken"
    3. The meaning of the Type in Lot and his wife.

    These I answered, and came to a conclusion. These arguments you have avoided. You have not addressed one of my points. Your objection is to assume that I cannot connect Luke 17 with Matthew 24 - something that I did not need to do. But now I will address your statement;

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Is Matt 24 speaking about a rapture? Certainly NOT!
    The questions posed in Matthew 24:3 are;
    1. Tell us, when shall these things be?
    2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming?
    3. and (what shall be the sign) of the end of the age?

    The Jews 24:1-31
    At the time of our Lord's Second Coming there will be THREE peoples on earth. (i) The Nations, (ii) The Nation of Israel, and (iii) the Believers (or, the Church). Unlike Mark and Luke, Matthew answers these questions in regard to ALL THREE peoples. From Matthew 24:1 to 31, all things are Jewish. From the Temple to false Christ's, to being hated worldwide, to Jerusalem, to Judea, to Daniel a Jewish prophet prophesying to "Daniel's People" - the Jews, and the Abomination of Desolation, even to Christ's landing on earth which is predicted to be on Mount of Olives, everything is about the Jews. Since there is no Rapture for the Jews, they are advised by the Lord Jesus that when they see what Daniel prophesied happen in Jerusalem of Judea, they must flee to the mountains in great haste.

    The Church 24:32 - 25:30
    But suddenly, after mentioning His touch-down and the "mourning" of the people who slew Him, the Lord turns to a PARABLE. According to Matthew 13:10-13 the Lord Jesus speaks in Parables FOR THE CHURCH. So the sudden change to a Parable in Matthew 24:32, and the term "ye" in both verses 32 and 33 shows that the Lord was now answering the three questions IN REGARD TO THE BELIEVERS. The BELIEVERS get parables and He was addressing DISCIPLES. This is further confirmed in that the talk is directed to SERVANTS OF THE LORD and VIRGINS. Now, the Nations hate Christ and would not lift a finger to serve Him, and the Jews hate Him vehemently and far from SERVING Christ, they murdered Him. So the context of Matthew 24:32 until 25:30 is all about, (i) those who receive PARABLES, (ii) those who are called SERVANTS of the Lord Jesus, (iii) those who are called VIRGINS, and (iv) those who need NO SIGNS since they life by faith. No SIGNS are given in this section but a MORAL condition is pushed to the fore. Let us then examine the closing verses of Matthew 24:32-51
    • Verse 36 clearly states that the Second Coming will be sudden and unexpected
    • Verse 37 says that MORAL condition of the earth will be the same as that before the Great Flood
    • Verse 38 says that PEOPLE of the WORLD were engaged in NORMAL THINGS and will, like those of Noah's time, not heed the warning of coming UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT
    • Verse 39 says these evil and unwary people will be TAKEN like in Noah's day. The Greek word "taken" here means "snatched in Judgement". It is the word used for our sins "taken away" by Judgement that fell on Jesus in John 1:29. The word is "airo", Strong's # 142 if you want to check.
    • Verse 39 uses the Greek word "parousia" for the "coming of the Lord" in this matter of universal judgement. It means "PRESENCE". It does not mean that the Lord is seen or already on the mount of Olives. Another of TWO Greek words, "Apokalypsis" which means "the Revealing", or "Erchomai" which means his "Arrival", are used. So verse 39 only alludes to the "PRESENCE" of Christ near this awful judgement.
    • Verse 40 starts with "THEN". This introduces something that will happen ADDITIONALLY to the beginning of Judgement which is connected to Christ's PRESENCE. That is, IN ADDITION to the Judgement starting, TWO will be in a field, and TWO will be at the Mill (and Luke 17:34 adds TWO together in a bed).
    • Verse 40 and 41 do not tell us who the TWO are. The only light we have is that; (i) TWO is the number of TESTIMONY - or WITNESS, and (ii) the word "taken" is not "Airo" but "Paralambano" - "Taken along as intimate companions" like Matthew 17:1.
    • Verse 42 finally tells us who they are: They are DISCIPLES! (i) They are equated with "YE" again - and our Lord was addressing His disciples. (ii) "YOUR Lord" indicates that they were BELIEVERS. Neither the Nations, nor the Nation of Israel admit Jesus as "THEIR Lord".
    • Verse 43 CONFIRMS who they are. They are members of a HOUSEHOLD. The only HOUSEHOLD in the Bible that has our Lord Jesus as "THEIR Lord" is the Church - Ephesians 2:19

    Now all that is left to decide is WHERE are those who are "taken as intimate companions" taken to? And WHERE are those who are "LEFT", left. The answer is right before us. Those who are "LEFT" are LEFT working the "field", the "mill" and the "bed". So where are those who are "TAKEN as companions" TAKEN TO? A place where there is NO field, NO mill and NO bed. No matter what one ascribes as a DESTINATION it is (i) OBVIOUS that they are RAPTURED, and (ii) that they are taken from the earth. The word we use, "Rapture" is "Harpadzo" in the Greek and means "caught away". "Harpadzo" indicates movement but does not give the direction. But since "Paralambano" means that we ACCOMPANY the person who TAKES us, and the Lord has NOT YET returned to earth, but is "PRESENT" in the clouds, the "catching away" of those who are TAKEN can only be to the clouds.

    This is confirmed by 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4.

    I propose that that a RAPTURE of CERTAIN of the Lord Jesus' SERVANTS to the clouds - to the PRESENCE of the Lord Jesus, IS CLEARLY SHOWN IN MATTHEW 24.

    For brevity's sake I will not deal with the Nations, but their fate at Christ's Coming is found in Matthew 25:31-46. It is clearly so stated.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,817
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    At the time of our Lord's Second Coming there will be THREE peoples on earth. (i) The Nations, (ii) The Nation of Israel, and (iii) the Believers (or, the Church).
    You start with a incorrect premise. You say the church will be on earth, however they are given up to be killed by war, and then no one on earth survives the mark of the beast (except perhaps the 144,000)

    [*]Verse 36 clearly states that the Second Coming will be sudden and unexpected
    Only unexpected after when the lights go out and the sun does not come up. AND only unexpected is that those on earth will think how can he return when he is already before us?

    [*]Verse 39 says these evil and unwary people will be TAKEN like in Noah's day. The Greek word "taken" here means "snatched in Judgement". It is the word used for our sins "taken away" by Judgement that fell on Jesus in John 1:29. The word is "airo", Strong's # 142 if you want to check.
    Agree you do want to be taken at this time.

    [*]Verse 40 and 41 do not tell us who the TWO are. The only light we have is that; (i) TWO is the number of TESTIMONY - or WITNESS, and (ii) the word "taken" is not "Airo" but "Paralambano" - "Taken along as intimate companions" like Matthew 17:1.[*]Verse 42 finally tells us who they are: They are DISCIPLES! (i) They are equated with "YE" again - and our Lord was addressing His disciples. (ii) "YOUR Lord" indicates that they were BELIEVERS. Neither the Nations, nor the Nation of Israel admit Jesus as "THEIR Lord".[*]Verse 43 CONFIRMS who they are. They are members of a HOUSEHOLD. The only HOUSEHOLD in the Bible that has our Lord Jesus as "THEIR Lord" is the Church - Ephesians 2:19[/LIST]
    Incorrect. Those left are either the 144,000 or another set of unbelievers. So the ones taken are definitely wicked. Regardless, Again the church is not upon the earth at this time as they are removed by death!

    This is confirmed by 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4.
    You are correct for IF there was a rapture of living it would have to be post. As the dead in Christ rise first. However I said, IF, as there is not a rapture.

    It is appointed unto man once to die.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,773

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    You start with a incorrect premise. You say the church will be on earth, however they are given up to be killed by war, and then no one on earth survives the mark of the beast (except perhaps the 144,000)



    Only unexpected after when the lights go out and the sun does not come up. AND only unexpected is that those on earth will think how can he return when he is already before us?



    Agree you do want to be taken at this time.



    Incorrect. Those left are either the 144,000 or another set of unbelievers. So the ones taken are definitely wicked. Regardless, Again the church is not upon the earth at this time as they are removed by death!



    You are correct for IF there was a rapture of living it would have to be post. As the dead in Christ rise first. However I said, IF, as there is not a rapture.

    It is appointed unto man once to die.
    Thank you for your reply. You have given your opinion and objection but not a single scripture, nor a bit of exegesis, to show the correct understanding. I will just answer your last statement with scripture. 1st Corinthians 15:51: "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed".

    That Hebrews 9:27 says that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die does not mean all men die. It means that a man cannot die more than once.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,950
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The brother addressed the contents and context of Luke 17. So my answer was about Luke 17. That there are parallels and even identical themes to Matthew 24 and 25 is given, but do I need to divert the OP away from Luke 17 to answer it? Am I called to task because I answered his objection solely from the text he chose? The "abuse" objected to in the OP revolved around three points in Luke 17:
    1. The preparedness of Christians to die physically
    2. The meaning of word "taken"
    3. The meaning of the Type in Lot and his wife.

    These I answered, and came to a conclusion. These arguments you have avoided. You have not addressed one of my points. Your objection is to assume that I cannot connect Luke 17 with Matthew 24 - something that I did not need to do. But now I will address your statement;
    Actually if you do NOT deal with the CONTEXT of what is stated then you can come to all sorts of conclusions based on the usage of a word in a different CONTEXT.
    You highlighted the usage of the word implying an intimacy, and thus translated that into something positive. I showed that it may be intimate, but that is not necessarily positive. Rape is intimate, as is the one who leads you by the hand to your execution.

    The meaning of the word "taken" then IS not what you claimed. I dealt with that.
    The issue is NOT about the preparedness of Christians to die physically, because the challenge is to flee. This IS about your physical life, and not simply your soul. In fact throughout the Bible the word soul often simply means your being, yourself as a person and is not limited to what is inside you.

    Lot's wife is an example because she turned back. Yet what Jesus says repeatedly is do NOT turn back. This is a physical returning for your cloak or for your goods. You may argue you want the things that life had provided you with, which probably has truth in it, but the basic CONTEXT is that of physical action.

    The questions posed in Matthew 24:3 are;
    1. Tell us, when shall these things be?
    2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming?
    3. and (what shall be the sign) of the end of the age?

    The Jews 24:1-31
    At the time of our Lord's Second Coming there will be THREE peoples on earth. (i) The Nations, (ii) The Nation of Israel, and (iii) the Believers (or, the Church). Unlike Mark and Luke, Matthew answers these questions in regard to ALL THREE peoples. From Matthew 24:1 to 31, all things are Jewish. From the Temple to false Christ's, to being hated worldwide, to Jerusalem, to Judea, to Daniel a Jewish prophet prophesying to "Daniel's People" - the Jews, and the Abomination of Desolation, even to Christ's landing on earth which is predicted to be on Mount of Olives, everything is about the Jews. Since there is no Rapture for the Jews, they are advised by the Lord Jesus that when they see what Daniel prophesied happen in Jerusalem of Judea, they must flee to the mountains in great haste.
    I see little point in dealing with this at the moment as it expands the OP.
    I referred to Matt 24 as it related to the OP, but now you are making additional claims.
    Many of which I disagree with, such as Matt 24:1 - 31 is ALL about the Jews. Just for example verses 9 - 14 is NOT about the Jews, but about the Church. It is about the proclamation of the gospel to the whole world.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,773

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually if you do NOT deal with the CONTEXT of what is stated then you can come to all sorts of conclusions based on the usage of a word in a different CONTEXT.
    You highlighted the usage of the word implying an intimacy, and thus translated that into something positive. I showed that it may be intimate, but that is not necessarily positive. Rape is intimate, as is the one who leads you by the hand to your execution.

    The meaning of the word "taken" then IS not what you claimed. I dealt with that.
    The issue is NOT about the preparedness of Christians to die physically, because the challenge is to flee. This IS about your physical life, and not simply your soul. In fact throughout the Bible the word soul often simply means your being, yourself as a person and is not limited to what is inside you.
    We discuss the word "taken" in Luke 17:35 and 36. I showed the context to be those in verse 33 who are required to lose their soul-life as explained in postings #2, #5 and #16. Even if you think that being raped is "taken as an intimate companion", (which many would dispute), it does not come near meaning that here WITHIN the CONTEXT of those who must lose their soul-life. It is CONTRASTED with those who are "Left" in a district of slaughter and vultures. Your objection in posting #4 was out of Zechariah 14:2 where a city was "taken". You pointedly avoided my examples of Joseph "taking" a wife on a journey to show how the Holy Spirit uses this word, and introduced an Hebrew word which means; "to catch (in a net, trap or pit); generally to capture or occupy;" (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). And then intimated that "intimate" in "paralambano" could mean "rape". But it is how SCRIPTURE uses the word that counts.

    If you make the soul-life and physical life equivalent, by all means go ahead. But scripture makes a vast difference. I showed this difference in Matthew 10:28 - to which you did not object. May the reader judge if the soul and the body are the same. And let them start with the SOUL our Lord Jesus, Who, when sundered form the BODY in death, went to Hades in the heart of the earth (Matt.12:40; Act.2:31), while His BODY languished less than a kilometer away ON THE SURFACE of the earth. Your lumping them together is the kind of accuracy is not conducive to getting to the bottom of a matter. How can we ever get to the bottom of this grand and complicated Book if we are so loose?

    And the issue we discuss is NOT whether to FLEE or not. It is WHO is "TAKEN" and who is "LEFT", and WHERE? The past participle "taken" implies a force from a second party. And if that force is the "Son of man" TAKING ("paralambano") those He is intimate with on a journey, THEN a RAPTURE in its truest sense occurs ("Harpadzo" - "caught away").

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Lot's wife is an example because she turned back. Yet what Jesus says repeatedly is do NOT turn back. This is a physical returning for your cloak or for your goods. You may argue you want the things that life had provided you with, which probably has truth in it, but the basic CONTEXT is that of physical action.
    My friend, how is it that you can warn other brothers of CONTEXT and in the same breath say that Lot's wife TURNED BACK. She DID NOT TURN BACK. She "LOOKED BACK" (Gen.19:26). Your whole argument is void because of this inaccuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I see little point in dealing with this at the moment as it expands the OP.
    I referred to Matt 24 as it related to the OP, but now you are making additional claims.
    Many of which I disagree with, such as Matt 24:1 - 31 is ALL about the Jews. Just for example verses 9 - 14 is NOT about the Jews, but about the Church. It is about the proclamation of the gospel to the whole world.
    It was you who introduced Matthew 24 into the debate. Are you maintaining that this is your sole right? Or do we others have the right to address what you introduced once you have done it? And Matthew 24:9-14 is not about the Church. Matthew 24:9-20 is the full context of the ONE verse you wish to use to turn the meaning.
    • Verse 9 is the Lord's answer to; "When shall these things be". You will be hated! When?? In the time from the destruction of the Temple till the Son of man comes!
    • Verse 10 are sentiments and emotions found richly among the dispersed Jews
    • Verse 11. False prophets are a Jewish problem. False TEACHERS are the Church's problem (2nd Pet.2:1)
    • Verse 12. These emotions were rife in the Warsaw ghetto and in many other places of Jewish persecution
    • Verse 13. The Jew is saved by "enduring to the end". The Christian is saved by FAITH
    • Verse 14 shows the TIME period of Jewish travail. The TIME that it takes to preach the gospel, not of grace, but of the Kingdom, is the time that Israel will be chastised.
    • Verse 15. The "Abomination of Desolation" is a prophesy to "Daniel's People" from a Jewish prophet in Hebrew, and which has its fulfillment in the Holy Place of a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem - chief city of the Jews.
    • Verse 16. And were shall they FLEE - Judean MOUNTAINS. The Church must flee to a WILDERNESS (Rev.12)
    • Verses 16-20 are problems of fleeing in Judea where the Abomination of Desolation has unleashed horror upon horror. The Sabbath is exclusive to the Jews

    My friend, the Church is not alluded to here. But maybe I missed something. I am open to learn. Please show me the Church in these verses.

    This Thread is about to descend into accusatory one-liners. You can avoid this now by a solid word-for-word and verse-for-verse exposition of Luke 17:33-37. Then we will all benefit from your knowledge and insight.

    Thanks and God bless (genuinely).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,950
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    We discuss the word "taken" in Luke 17:35 and 36. I showed the context to be those in verse 33 who are required to lose their soul-life as explained in postings #2, #5 and #16. Even if you think that being raped is "taken as an intimate companion", (which many would dispute), it does not come near meaning that here WITHIN the CONTEXT of those who must lose their soul-life. It is CONTRASTED with those who are "Left" in a district of slaughter and vultures. Your objection in posting #4 was out of Zechariah 14:2 where a city was "taken". You pointedly avoided my examples of Joseph "taking" a wife on a journey to show how the Holy Spirit uses this word, and introduced an Hebrew word which means; "to catch (in a net, trap or pit); generally to capture or occupy;" (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). And then intimated that "intimate" in "paralambano" could mean "rape". But it is how SCRIPTURE uses the word that counts.
    I read your postings and disagreed with your conclusions as your CONTEXT was incorrect.
    Those who are taken in CONTEXT are those who are slaughtered.
    Joseph taking a wife is no more intimate than having another person alongside you.
    If you choose to use Hebrew words to explain Greek words...
    It is indeed how scripture uses the words which is important, and on that we agree.

    If you make the soul-life and physical life equivalent, by all means go ahead. But scripture makes a vast difference. I showed this difference in Matthew 10:28 - to which you did not object. May the reader judge if the soul and the body are the same. And let them start with the SOUL our Lord Jesus, Who, when sundered form the BODY in death, went to Hades in the heart of the earth (Matt.12:40; Act.2:31), while His BODY languished less than a kilometer away ON THE SURFACE of the earth. Your lumping them together is the kind of accuracy is not conducive to getting to the bottom of a matter. How can we ever get to the bottom of this grand and complicated Book if we are so loose?
    Actually when you physical die your soul goes to hades, even as your body returns to the earth.
    I agree with your example of Matt 10:28 and that of Jesus. However scripture is NOT as clinically exact as you are claiming.
    At times it does differentiate and at others it doesn't.
    So we need to use the words as used within the CONTEXT and not as if it is a medical textbook.
    Language is unfortunately more loose than we sometimes want.
    In Luke 17 we have verse 37 which speaks of a body, which then speaks of the soul having left the body, which means that there was a PHYSICAL death.
    In Matt 24:28 the word used is that of a corpse, which clarifies things further.

    And the issue we discuss is NOT whether to FLEE or not. It is WHO is "TAKEN" and who is "LEFT", and WHERE? The past participle "taken" implies a force from a second party. And if that force is the "Son of man" TAKING ("paralambano") those He is intimate with on a journey, THEN a RAPTURE in its truest sense occurs ("Harpadzo" - "caught away").
    Actually the issue under discussion IS related to whether to flee or not.
    The one who is taken is the one who has NOT fled.
    Where is the one taken? To be a body, a corpse, food for the birds.
    There is indeed force taken, but it isn't God's.
    It is that of man.

    My friend, how is it that you can warn other brothers of CONTEXT and in the same breath say that Lot's wife TURNED BACK. She DID NOT TURN BACK. She "LOOKED BACK" (Gen.19:26). Your whole argument is void because of this inaccuracy.
    Gen 19:26* But Lot's wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
    I agree the actual words do not say she turned back.
    What it says is she was behind him and looks back.
    Now what does that tell you?
    She is behind him and looking to what she has left behind.
    Her physical action of lagging behind and of looking back shows what is in her mind.
    Why else do you think she was turned into a pillar of salt?

    It was you who introduced Matthew 24 into the debate. Are you maintaining that this is your sole right? Or do we others have the right to address what you introduced once you have done it? And Matthew 24:9-14 is not about the Church. Matthew 24:9-20 is the full context of the ONE verse you wish to use to turn the meaning.
    • Verse 9 is the Lord's answer to; "When shall these things be". You will be hated! When?? In the time from the destruction of the Temple till the Son of man comes!
    • Verse 10 are sentiments and emotions found richly among the dispersed Jews
    • Verse 11. False prophets are a Jewish problem. False TEACHERS are the Church's problem (2nd Pet.2:1)
    • Verse 12. These emotions were rife in the Warsaw ghetto and in many other places of Jewish persecution
    • Verse 13. The Jew is saved by "enduring to the end". The Christian is saved by FAITH
    • Verse 14 shows the TIME period of Jewish travail. The TIME that it takes to preach the gospel, not of grace, but of the Kingdom, is the time that Israel will be chastised.
    • Verse 15. The "Abomination of Desolation" is a prophesy to "Daniel's People" from a Jewish prophet in Hebrew, and which has its fulfillment in the Holy Place of a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem - chief city of the Jews.
    • Verse 16. And were shall they FLEE - Judean MOUNTAINS. The Church must flee to a WILDERNESS (Rev.12)
    • Verses 16-20 are problems of fleeing in Judea where the Abomination of Desolation has unleashed horror upon horror. The Sabbath is exclusive to the Jews

    My friend, the Church is not alluded to here. But maybe I missed something. I am open to learn. Please show me the Church in these verses.
    I ONLY introduced Matt 24 where it connects with Luke 17. You are trying to broaden it into other things outside the scope.
    However verse 9 - 14 are 100% about the Church.
    This is VERY EASY to see.
    Mat 24:9* Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    Who are they? The Jews and anyone else who persecutes you.
    Who is you? The disciples, the followers of Jesus.
    Why? Because of His name.
    Therefore in this verse alone it is abundantly clear this is about the church and spans the age from His departure to His return. Therefore this is NOT about the Jews.
    Verse 10 is not about Jews, but about the Church.
    Verse 11 is about the church - do you not realise there are false prophets in the Church?
    Verse 12 speaks of the love of Christians growing cold:
    We read this in the following verse:
    Rev 2:4* But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.

    Verse 13 is about Christians enduring NOT Jews. It is a strange claim that it is not Christians. Have you not heard the parable of the Sower? Perhaps you peddle OSAS?
    Verse 14 is not the time of travail for the Jew, but the time UNTIL Jesus returns. It is for the Christian to shorten this time by preaching the gospel.

    Now verse 15 then is where the events of the Jews and those of Christians come together.
    The GT starts in Jerusalem and is the Day of Jacob's Trouble, but from there it expands into the world and is the GT for Christians. Jews are either taken or flee into the wilderness and safety.

    I am not interested in exhaustively creating a commentary on Luke 17.
    It is very simple, the CONTEXT of Luke 17 is the SAME event as that in Matt 24 which is an event in Jerusalem. This is NOT a rapture event, as you should be agreeing as you have Matt 24 until verse 31 as about the Jews, which therefore includes the SAME verses in Matthew as we read in Luke 17.

    What you don't seem to follow is that Luke is relating this part of the Olivet Discourse out of chronology because Luke writes according to topic (as it chronologically occurs).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,817
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    However verse 9 - 14 are 100% about the Church.
    This is VERY EASY to see.
    Mat 24:9* Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    Agree. But do any survive?

    Those which endure unto the end will be saved. End of what? Not the GT rather endure unto death.

    The GT starts in Jerusalem and is the Day of Jacob's Trouble, but from there it expands into the world and is the GT for Christians.
    Christians are killed off as above.

    So no post rapture!

    Jews are either taken or flee into the wilderness and safety.
    He does not tell them to flee for safety rather a warning. Is he telling them not to come down from the roof top for safety as well?

    If anyone survives it would be the Jews 144,000.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,950
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Agree. But do any survive?
    Those which endure unto the end will be saved. End of what? Not the GT rather endure unto death.
    Yes some live to the end of the GT. We don't know how many. Depends in parton how people treat us.

    Christians are killed off as above.
    So no post rapture!
    Not all are killed, and the rapture starts with the DEAD rising.

    He does not tell them to flee for safety rather a warning. Is he telling them not to come down from the roof top for safety as well?
    If anyone survives it would be the Jews 144,000.
    It will be more than 144K, it will include those who give God glory and who respond to the testimony of the 2W.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,817
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes some live to the end of the GT. We don't know how many. Depends in parton how people treat us.

    Not all are killed, and the rapture starts with the DEAD rising.
    No one survives not taking the mark of the beast....(perhaps only the 144,000). Are they cowards and hiding out?

    Does anyone survive not taking God's mark?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,950
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    No one survives not taking the mark of the beast....(perhaps only the 144,000). Are they cowards and hiding out?
    Actually many do, but this is ONLY because the time is shortened. If more time was given for the AC to rule then you would be correct.

    Does anyone survive not taking God's mark?
    Ultimately no.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,773

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I read your postings and disagreed with your conclusions as your CONTEXT was incorrect.
    Those who are taken in CONTEXT are those who are slaughtered.
    Joseph taking a wife is no more intimate than having another person alongside you.
    If you choose to use Hebrew words to explain Greek words...
    It is indeed how scripture uses the words which is important, and on that we agree.


    Actually when you physical die your soul goes to hades, even as your body returns to the earth.
    I agree with your example of Matt 10:28 and that of Jesus. However scripture is NOT as clinically exact as you are claiming.
    At times it does differentiate and at others it doesn't.
    So we need to use the words as used within the CONTEXT and not as if it is a medical textbook.
    Language is unfortunately more loose than we sometimes want.
    In Luke 17 we have verse 37 which speaks of a body, which then speaks of the soul having left the body, which means that there was a PHYSICAL death.
    In Matt 24:28 the word used is that of a corpse, which clarifies things further.


    Actually the issue under discussion IS related to whether to flee or not.
    The one who is taken is the one who has NOT fled.
    Where is the one taken? To be a body, a corpse, food for the birds.
    There is indeed force taken, but it isn't God's.
    It is that of man.


    Gen 19:26* But Lot's wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
    I agree the actual words do not say she turned back.
    What it says is she was behind him and looks back.
    Now what does that tell you?
    She is behind him and looking to what she has left behind.
    Her physical action of lagging behind and of looking back shows what is in her mind.
    Why else do you think she was turned into a pillar of salt?


    I ONLY introduced Matt 24 where it connects with Luke 17. You are trying to broaden it into other things outside the scope.
    However verse 9 - 14 are 100% about the Church.
    This is VERY EASY to see.
    Mat 24:9* Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    Who are they? The Jews and anyone else who persecutes you.
    Who is you? The disciples, the followers of Jesus.
    Why? Because of His name.
    Therefore in this verse alone it is abundantly clear this is about the church and spans the age from His departure to His return. Therefore this is NOT about the Jews.
    Verse 10 is not about Jews, but about the Church.
    Verse 11 is about the church - do you not realise there are false prophets in the Church?
    Verse 12 speaks of the love of Christians growing cold:
    We read this in the following verse:
    Rev 2:4* But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.

    Verse 13 is about Christians enduring NOT Jews. It is a strange claim that it is not Christians. Have you not heard the parable of the Sower? Perhaps you peddle OSAS?
    Verse 14 is not the time of travail for the Jew, but the time UNTIL Jesus returns. It is for the Christian to shorten this time by preaching the gospel.

    Now verse 15 then is where the events of the Jews and those of Christians come together.
    The GT starts in Jerusalem and is the Day of Jacob's Trouble, but from there it expands into the world and is the GT for Christians. Jews are either taken or flee into the wilderness and safety.

    I am not interested in exhaustively creating a commentary on Luke 17.
    It is very simple, the CONTEXT of Luke 17 is the SAME event as that in Matt 24 which is an event in Jerusalem. This is NOT a rapture event, as you should be agreeing as you have Matt 24 until verse 31 as about the Jews, which therefore includes the SAME verses in Matthew as we read in Luke 17.

    What you don't seem to follow is that Luke is relating this part of the Olivet Discourse out of chronology because Luke writes according to topic (as it chronologically occurs).
    Thank you for your reply. I have read it and noted it.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    128

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Up until Luke 17:32 you only produced verses that apply to the UNBELIEVER. They carry no weight for your discussion. God's wrath and destruction is promised on these men and women, and even "all flesh". So to bring them into your argument is moot.
    Your idea is kind of funny, since Jesus is Who brought those events into the discussion about how it will be in the days of His second coming!

    Your argument has fallen into the cracks from the very start.

    Luke 17:26-30
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    KJV

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 92
    Last Post: Jan 22nd 2018, 05:06 AM
  2. Friendly discussion Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...
    By Rockrz in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 271
    Last Post: Jul 21st 2014, 11:51 PM
  3. Replies: 94
    Last Post: May 7th 2014, 04:33 AM
  4. If Pre-Trib is wrong, how does Post-Trib reconcile Matthew 24:44
    By CanadianSlash in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: Jul 18th 2009, 02:41 PM
  5. Pre-trib, Post-trib, Mid-Trib Rapture Scripture
    By LaurieF in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: May 31st 2009, 01:01 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •