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Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

  1. #1
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    Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    One of the ideas brethren on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are taught from Luke 17 is about being the first one 'taken'. They are told the first 'taken' will be Jesus pulling them out of this world, escaping just before the time of "great tribulation" begins. In reality, Luke 17 does not teach any such idea as that, as shown in the following Scripture:

    Luke 17:26-37
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    This first example our Lord Jesus gave is about being protected inside the ark while those outside were busy with the ways of this life when the flood came upon them and destroyed them. Noah's ark rode on top of those waters of the flood for 150 days. He and his didn't escape the flood, they went through it.


    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Now Lot and his were led out by the two angels, and then God destroyed those cities with the wicked, the idea being their sudden destruction while God protected His (they didn't have to leave the earth).


    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    This Scripture is also used to preach the "be ye also ready" idea Jesus said (Matt.24:44). His meaning was that He wants to find us busy doing His work when He comes, and not busy with the ways of the world so that we forget about the end of all things.


    Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    This is a special Message for those who understand. In that time of the end, those who seek to save their lives shall lose them. How's that? In that our Lord means if you're busy in the ways of this world and are not prepared with the Gospel Armour on, ready even to the death if needs be, then you could lose your soul. Those who will be seeking to 'save' their life at the end of this world will be in agreement with the coming Antichrist and his ways. It will mean taking the mark and bowing to his image.

    But whosoever shall lose their life, meaning for Christ in making a stand for Him, will have preserved their soul unto Him unto everlasting life. His Message in just this one verse is for us to be prepared to make a stand for Him, even to the death, and do not fear death, like Matt.10:28. That's a lot different than what those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are preaching, isn't it?




    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them,
    "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    KJV

    Here again is a Scripture that the Pre-trib Rapture preachers abuse, because it is not about the Church escaping at all.

    Jesus says two men in one bed, one taken the other left, two women grinding at the mill, one taken, the other left, two men in one field, the one taken, the other left. So naturally, His disciples then turn to Him and ask Him, "Where, Lord?" They want to know where those 1st ones 'taken' will be taken to!

    Here's another version of our Lord Jesus' answer to them:

    Matt 24:28
    28
    For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV


    That word "carcase" in the Greek means literally a dead body. Our Lord used that to compare those first ones 'taken' being like dead bodies gathered to where the eagles will be gathered. The idea is for a meal (spiritually) those birds will have on their dead bodies (also spiritual sense).

    The idea is about deception. That was our Lord Jesus' very first warning sign for the end of this world. He gave several examples in His Gospel about peoples alive walking on the earth but inside, their spiritual status was like a tomb full of dead men's bones. So He taught the idea of being spiritually dead inside regarding one's soul who rejects Him, even while their flesh body is still alive walking upon the earth.

    When the coming Antichrist arrives and demands all to bow to him in place of God, what will that do to one's soul who agrees? It will make them spiritually like a dead "carcase", and they will be gathered to be supped on by... the followers of the Antichrist, as they will disguise themselves as "eagles". That is where the first one 'taken' will be taken to. It is not to our Lord Jesus, it will be to the coming pseudo-Messiah in Jerusalem, for that is the coming Antichrist.

    What about the "eagles" symbol, how does that apply here, because it's actually vultures that go after a carcase that is already dead? Fly like eagles is more in the sense of what the Pre-trib Rapture idea teaches. But remember in 2 Corinthians 11 Apostle Paul said no marvel, for the Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness? In 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Paul showed the coming Antichrist will exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

    So 'where', like Christ's disciples asked, is that place where those fake "eagles" will be? and where will those taken be taken to?

  2. #2
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    One of the ideas brethren on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are taught from Luke 17 is about being the first one 'taken'. They are told the first 'taken' will be Jesus pulling them out of this world, escaping just before the time of "great tribulation" begins. In reality, Luke 17 does not teach any such idea as that, as shown in the following Scripture:

    Luke 17:26-37
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    This first example our Lord Jesus gave is about being protected inside the ark while those outside were busy with the ways of this life when the flood came upon them and destroyed them. Noah's ark rode on top of those waters of the flood for 150 days. He and his didn't escape the flood, they went through it.


    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Now Lot and his were led out by the two angels, and then God destroyed those cities with the wicked, the idea being their sudden destruction while God protected His (they didn't have to leave the earth).


    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    This Scripture is also used to preach the "be ye also ready" idea Jesus said (Matt.24:44). His meaning was that He wants to find us busy doing His work when He comes, and not busy with the ways of the world so that we forget about the end of all things.


    Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    This is a special Message for those who understand. In that time of the end, those who seek to save their lives shall lose them. How's that? In that our Lord means if you're busy in the ways of this world and are not prepared with the Gospel Armour on, ready even to the death if needs be, then you could lose your soul. Those who will be seeking to 'save' their life at the end of this world will be in agreement with the coming Antichrist and his ways. It will mean taking the mark and bowing to his image.

    But whosoever shall lose their life, meaning for Christ in making a stand for Him, will have preserved their soul unto Him unto everlasting life. His Message in just this one verse is for us to be prepared to make a stand for Him, even to the death, and do not fear death, like Matt.10:28. That's a lot different than what those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are preaching, isn't it?
    [COLOR=#000080]



    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."


    Here again is a Scripture that the Pre-trib Rapture preachers abuse, because it is not about the Church escaping at all.

    Jesus says two men in one bed, one taken the other left, two women grinding at the mill, one taken, the other left, two men in one field, the one taken, the other left. So naturally, His disciples then turn to Him and ask Him, "Where, Lord?" They want to know where those 1st ones 'taken' will be taken to!

    Here's another version of our Lord Jesus' answer to them:

    Matt 24:28
    28
    For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV


    That word "carcase" in the Greek means literally a dead body. Our Lord used that to compare those first ones 'taken' being like dead bodies gathered to where the eagles will be gathered. The idea is for a meal (spiritually) those birds will have on their dead bodies (also spiritual sense).

    The idea is about deception. That was our Lord Jesus' very first warning sign for the end of this world. He gave several examples in His Gospel about peoples alive walking on the earth but inside, their spiritual status was like a tomb full of dead men's bones. So He taught the idea of being spiritually dead inside regarding one's soul who rejects Him, even while their flesh body is still alive walking upon the earth.

    When the coming Antichrist arrives and demands all to bow to him in place of God, what will that do to one's soul who agrees? It will make them spiritually like a dead "carcase", and they will be gathered to be supped on by... the followers of the Antichrist, as they will disguise themselves as "eagles". That is where the first one 'taken' will be taken to. It is not to our Lord Jesus, it will be to the coming pseudo-Messiah in Jerusalem, for that is the coming Antichrist.

    What about the "eagles" symbol, how does that apply here, because it's actually vultures that go after a carcase that is already dead? Fly like eagles is more in the sense of what the Pre-trib Rapture idea teaches. But remember in 2 Corinthians 11 Apostle Paul said no marvel, for the Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness? In 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Paul showed the coming Antichrist will exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

    So 'where', like Christ's disciples asked, is that place where those fake "eagles" will be? and where will those taken be taken to?
    Up until Luke 17:32 you only produced verses that apply to the UNBELIEVER. They carry no weight for your discussion. God's wrath and destruction is promised on these men and women, and even "all flesh". So to bring them into your argument is moot.

    Therefore, I pick up your argument in the red bold Luke 17:34-37. There you have to decide for yourself if you been true to the Greek word "taken". The Greek word rendered "taken" in verses 35 and 36 is, "paralambano". It means "taken as an intimate companion". Its first mention, 3 times, in Matthew 1:20, 1:24 and 2:13 shows its meaning. It is Joseph "taking" Mary to be his wife TWICE, and the THIRD time, "taking" Mary's child, Jesus with as an intimate companion. I fear you have not taken this into account, for your meaning is that you have CONTINUED with the UNBELIEVER as "taken" in judgement - another Greek word altogether. And verse 33 changes the CONTEXT to from unbeliever to believer - as you have said in your commentary. Thus, verses 34 to 37 talk of who is "taken as an intimate companion" and who is LEFT behind.

    As to verse 33 the word "life" is actually "Psuche" - the soul-life. Thus, the verse simply says that those who seek to preserve their "soul-life" will, at a future date, lose their "soul-life", and those that lose it as disciples of Jesus, will, at a future date , gain it back. There is NO TALK of physical death here! The LIFE that a man loses when he stops breathing is "bios" in the Greek (e.g. Mark 12:44, Luke 8:14). The best example of this difference is our Lord Jesus and His death. On that fateful Passover, our Lord Jesus dies TWICE. In Gethsemane, He goes ahead alone and cries out and sweats blood. He cries, "... My soul (Psuche - Gk) is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... ." (Matthew 26:38). The death of the soul is extreme SORROW! What faced Him was too excruciating. The pending separation from His Father in heaven, the indifference of His disciples, the betrayal of His disciple of three years - Judas, the suffering He would face on the cross, the humiliation, the weakness, the disgrace - all produced a SORROW which He calls the "death of His SOUL". Then at 9 a.m. He is nailed to the cross and dies physically (bios) at 3 p.m., all the while still suffering extreme sorrow (of the soul- Psuche).

    The DIFFERENCE between these TWO deaths is clearly seen in Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    So your argument concerning dying for the Lord in Luke 17:33 is not correct. What is meant is that those faithful Christians, by denying their souls in this age, will be clothed with GLADNESS in the next age. And it is those Christians who deny their SOUL unto death, like our Lord Jesus did, will, AT THE JUDGMENT, when the Lord returns, "... enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21-23)!

    The true meaning of Luke 17:33-37 is that there are TWO types of Christian at the Second Coming of the Lord:
    1. Christians who have lost their soul-life by denying them selves as the lord required over and over from His disciples
    2. Christians who did NOT lose their soul-lives by pandering to themselves in this age

    The Christians of FIRST type will be TAKEN ("paralambano") as intimate companions of Jesus, while the Christians of the SECOND type will be "LEFT"(behind). And the question leveled at the Lord Jesus in verse 37, is; "LORD, IF THEY ARE 'LEFT', WHERE ARE THEY 'LEFT'"? And the Lord's reply is that they are "LEFT" at the same place as the Great Slaughter is. Since about two thirds of men will be killed by the Great Tribulation, and another massive contingent will be slaughtered at Armageddon, the PLACE where the slothful and self-serving Christian is "LEFT" is ON EARTH!

    Finally, Lot and his wife are not just mentioned in passing. They form a TYPE of this matter of one BELIEVER "taken as an intimate companion" and one BELIEVER "left behind" on earth. The narrative of Lot contains THREE elements. They are;
    1. Abraham's condition and PLACE - for it was Abraham's INTERCESSION that saved Lot (Gen.19:29)
    2. Lot's condition and PLACE
    3. Lot's wife's condition and PLACE

    • Abraham is, at the moment of judgement, found "ON HIGH" - the plain of Mamre near Hebron which means "fellowship", or "association". Hebron's elevation is 3,000 Ft above sea level. Abraham PLACE depicts (is a Type of) the Christian ON HIGH as an "intimate companion" of the Lord, and his condition was one of INTIMATE FELLOWSHIP.
    • Lot, called "JUST Lot" in 2nd Peter 2:7, first chose the luxurious area of Sodom, then "pitched his tent towards Sodom", then "dwelt in Sodom", and finally was involved in the leadership of Sodom (the "gates" where the elders meet - Deut.21:19). Lot lived by sight and chose the best place and situation for HIMSELF. He satisfies his SOUL. But his choice comes under judgement. He is NOT "taken as an intimate companion of the Lord" but forcefully by two angels to a wilderness at the south eastern point of the Dead Sea - elevation 1,500 ft BELOW sea level - a difference of 4,500 ft to Abraham. He then gets drunk and is abused by his daughters to produce two of Israel's most vindictive enemies. He depicts the slothful, selfish, fleshly Christian who pandered to his "soul-life". His life (bios) is saved but not caught UP ON HIGH like Abraham.
    • Lot's wife is saved from judgement by fire by the angels. But her heart is still in the city of destruction. She yearns for the life of pleasure and the fame of her husbands involvement of the leadership of the city and its politics. She becomes a pillar of salt. Now, Christians are "salt" (Matt.5:13), and "salt" is positive in the Bible. But salt is only good for preventing corruption if it is SPREAD on the corrupting elements. A "pillar" is a long effigy - much salt - but with a very small base. That is, Lot's wife should have at least been effective as salt - as a Christian. But she is NOT SPREAD. She only touches small area of earth. Lot's wife thus depicts the Christians caught in Commercial Babylon when the Lord returns. In Revelation 18:4 it is; "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    Thus, the mention of Lot in Luke 17 STRENGTHENS the argument that ...
    1. SOME Believers will be raptured before the coming Judgment
    2. SOME Believers will pass through the Great Tribulation in a "wilderness" (Revelation Chapters 7, 12 & 13)
    3. SOME Believers will be caught IN Babylon the Great (Commercial Babylon) and suffer of her "plagues", but remain useless as a testimony on earth like salt that covers no area (Rev.18).

    I dare say you know such Christians yourself.

  3. #3
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    One of the ideas brethren on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are taught from Luke 17 is about being the first one 'taken'. They are told the first 'taken' will be Jesus pulling them out of this world, escaping just before the time of "great tribulation" begins. In reality, Luke 17 does not teach any such idea as that, as shown in the following Scripture:

    Luke 17:26-37
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    This first example our Lord Jesus gave is about being protected inside the ark while those outside were busy with the ways of this life when the flood came upon them and destroyed them. Noah's ark rode on top of those waters of the flood for 150 days. He and his didn't escape the flood, they went through it.


    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Now Lot and his were led out by the two angels, and then God destroyed those cities with the wicked, the idea being their sudden destruction while God protected His (they didn't have to leave the earth).


    Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    This Scripture is also used to preach the "be ye also ready" idea Jesus said (Matt.24:44). His meaning was that He wants to find us busy doing His work when He comes, and not busy with the ways of the world so that we forget about the end of all things.


    Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    This is a special Message for those who understand. In that time of the end, those who seek to save their lives shall lose them. How's that? In that our Lord means if you're busy in the ways of this world and are not prepared with the Gospel Armour on, ready even to the death if needs be, then you could lose your soul. Those who will be seeking to 'save' their life at the end of this world will be in agreement with the coming Antichrist and his ways. It will mean taking the mark and bowing to his image.

    But whosoever shall lose their life, meaning for Christ in making a stand for Him, will have preserved their soul unto Him unto everlasting life. His Message in just this one verse is for us to be prepared to make a stand for Him, even to the death, and do not fear death, like Matt.10:28. That's a lot different than what those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are preaching, isn't it?




    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them,
    "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    KJV

    Here again is a Scripture that the Pre-trib Rapture preachers abuse, because it is not about the Church escaping at all.

    Jesus says two men in one bed, one taken the other left, two women grinding at the mill, one taken, the other left, two men in one field, the one taken, the other left. So naturally, His disciples then turn to Him and ask Him, "Where, Lord?" They want to know where those 1st ones 'taken' will be taken to!

    Here's another version of our Lord Jesus' answer to them:

    Matt 24:28
    28
    For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV


    That word "carcase" in the Greek means literally a dead body. Our Lord used that to compare those first ones 'taken' being like dead bodies gathered to where the eagles will be gathered. The idea is for a meal (spiritually) those birds will have on their dead bodies (also spiritual sense).

    The idea is about deception. That was our Lord Jesus' very first warning sign for the end of this world. He gave several examples in His Gospel about peoples alive walking on the earth but inside, their spiritual status was like a tomb full of dead men's bones. So He taught the idea of being spiritually dead inside regarding one's soul who rejects Him, even while their flesh body is still alive walking upon the earth.

    When the coming Antichrist arrives and demands all to bow to him in place of God, what will that do to one's soul who agrees? It will make them spiritually like a dead "carcase", and they will be gathered to be supped on by... the followers of the Antichrist, as they will disguise themselves as "eagles". That is where the first one 'taken' will be taken to. It is not to our Lord Jesus, it will be to the coming pseudo-Messiah in Jerusalem, for that is the coming Antichrist.

    What about the "eagles" symbol, how does that apply here, because it's actually vultures that go after a carcase that is already dead? Fly like eagles is more in the sense of what the Pre-trib Rapture idea teaches. But remember in 2 Corinthians 11 Apostle Paul said no marvel, for the Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness? In 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Paul showed the coming Antichrist will exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

    So 'where', like Christ's disciples asked, is that place where those fake "eagles" will be? and where will those taken be taken to?
    Why would they LEAVE THE EARTH when Jesus' hadn't even been born ? If their mission on earth was complete then God could have and maybe would have taken them, but Jesus needed men on earth to Preach to, to shed his blood fr to save them, so why would you think in this manner ? The Churches Mission will be COMPLETE, they will have spread the Gospel unto the whole world, mission complete, Church is thus needed in Heaven to Marry the Lamb, SEE Rev. 19, we Marry the Lamb then return with Jesus, this is not that hard brother.

    Lot was taken OUT OF THE CITY..........Noah was take OUT OF THE FLOOD........The Church will be taken OUT OF THE EARTH which is about to be Judged. To be honest, I don't get you Christians who can't see what is obvious in the bible, it just boggles my mind.

    The one that is taken and the other left only fits a Rapture. As in the days of Noah they will be marrying and drinking as if everything is normal like they were before the flood came. Anyone thinking rationally will understand this can't be about the Second Coming because right before the Second Coming I can tell you they WILL NOT BE acting as if nothing was going on/Marrying/Drinking etc. etc., they will be dodging the Plagues of God, running and hiding etc. etc. We all understand that the Rapture will be a SURPRISE, but the Second Coming will not be, we understand that 1260 days after the Beast Conquers Jerusalem Jesus will return we will only be surprised by the Rapture, not the Second Coming.

    The eagles are the Church........Sees fowls/birds in Rev. 19 via the Marriage Supper. The Carcass is Armageddon, the Eagles/Church will be with Jesus at Armageddon.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Up until Luke 17:32 you only produced verses that apply to the UNBELIEVER. They carry no weight for your discussion. God's wrath and destruction is promised on these men and women, and even "all flesh". So to bring them into your argument is moot.

    Therefore, I pick up your argument in the red bold Luke 17:34-37. There you have to decide for yourself if you been true to the Greek word "taken". The Greek word rendered "taken" in verses 35 and 36 is, "paralambano". It means "taken as an intimate companion". Its first mention, 3 times, in Matthew 1:20, 1:24 and 2:13 shows its meaning. It is Joseph "taking" Mary to be his wife TWICE, and the THIRD time, "taking" Mary's child, Jesus with as an intimate companion. I fear you have not taken this into account, for your meaning is that you have CONTINUED with the UNBELIEVER as "taken" in judgement - another Greek word altogether. And verse 33 changes the CONTEXT to from unbeliever to believer - as you have said in your commentary. Thus, verses 34 to 37 talk of who is "taken as an intimate companion" and who is LEFT behind.

    As to verse 33 the word "life" is actually "Psuche" - the soul-life. Thus, the verse simply says that those who seek to preserve their "soul-life" will, at a future date, lose their "soul-life", and those that lose it as disciples of Jesus, will, at a future date , gain it back. There is NO TALK of physical death here! The LIFE that a man loses when he stops breathing is "bios" in the Greek (e.g. Mark 12:44, Luke 8:14). The best example of this difference is our Lord Jesus and His death. On that fateful Passover, our Lord Jesus dies TWICE. In Gethsemane, He goes ahead alone and cries out and sweats blood. He cries, "... My soul (Psuche - Gk) is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... ." (Matthew 26:38). The death of the soul is extreme SORROW! What faced Him was too excruciating. The pending separation from His Father in heaven, the indifference of His disciples, the betrayal of His disciple of three years - Judas, the suffering He would face on the cross, the humiliation, the weakness, the disgrace - all produced a SORROW which He calls the "death of His SOUL". Then at 9 a.m. He is nailed to the cross and dies physically (bios) at 3 p.m., all the while still suffering extreme sorrow (of the soul- Psuche).

    The DIFFERENCE between these TWO deaths is clearly seen in Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    So your argument concerning dying for the Lord in Luke 17:33 is not correct. What is meant is that those faithful Christians, by denying their souls in this age, will be clothed with GLADNESS in the next age. And it is those Christians who deny their SOUL unto death, like our Lord Jesus did, will, AT THE JUDGMENT, when the Lord returns, "... enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21-23)!

    The true meaning of Luke 17:33-37 is that there are TWO types of Christian at the Second Coming of the Lord:
    1. Christians who have lost their soul-life by denying them selves as the lord required over and over from His disciples
    2. Christians who did NOT lose their soul-lives by pandering to themselves in this age

    The Christians of FIRST type will be TAKEN ("paralambano") as intimate companions of Jesus, while the Christians of the SECOND type will be "LEFT"(behind). And the question leveled at the Lord Jesus in verse 37, is; "LORD, IF THEY ARE 'LEFT', WHERE ARE THEY 'LEFT'"? And the Lord's reply is that they are "LEFT" at the same place as the Great Slaughter is. Since about two thirds of men will be killed by the Great Tribulation, and another massive contingent will be slaughtered at Armageddon, the PLACE where the slothful and self-serving Christian is "LEFT" is ON EARTH!

    Finally, Lot and his wife are not just mentioned in passing. They form a TYPE of this matter of one BELIEVER "taken as an intimate companion" and one BELIEVER "left behind" on earth. The narrative of Lot contains THREE elements. They are;
    1. Abraham's condition and PLACE - for it was Abraham's INTERCESSION that saved Lot (Gen.19:29)
    2. Lot's condition and PLACE
    3. Lot's wife's condition and PLACE

    • Abraham is, at the moment of judgement, found "ON HIGH" - the plain of Mamre near Hebron which means "fellowship", or "association". Hebron's elevation is 3,000 Ft above sea level. Abraham PLACE depicts (is a Type of) the Christian ON HIGH as an "intimate companion" of the Lord, and his condition was one of INTIMATE FELLOWSHIP.
    • Lot, called "JUST Lot" in 2nd Peter 2:7, first chose the luxurious area of Sodom, then "pitched his tent towards Sodom", then "dwelt in Sodom", and finally was involved in the leadership of Sodom (the "gates" where the elders meet - Deut.21:19). Lot lived by sight and chose the best place and situation for HIMSELF. He satisfies his SOUL. But his choice comes under judgement. He is NOT "taken as an intimate companion of the Lord" but forcefully by two angels to a wilderness at the south eastern point of the Dead Sea - elevation 1,500 ft BELOW sea level - a difference of 4,500 ft to Abraham. He then gets drunk and is abused by his daughters to produce two of Israel's most vindictive enemies. He depicts the slothful, selfish, fleshly Christian who pandered to his "soul-life". His life (bios) is saved but not caught UP ON HIGH like Abraham.
    • Lot's wife is saved from judgement by fire by the angels. But her heart is still in the city of destruction. She yearns for the life of pleasure and the fame of her husbands involvement of the leadership of the city and its politics. She becomes a pillar of salt. Now, Christians are "salt" (Matt.5:13), and "salt" is positive in the Bible. But salt is only good for preventing corruption if it is SPREAD on the corrupting elements. A "pillar" is a long effigy - much salt - but with a very small base. That is, Lot's wife should have at least been effective as salt - as a Christian. But she is NOT SPREAD. She only touches small area of earth. Lot's wife thus depicts the Christians caught in Commercial Babylon when the Lord returns. In Revelation 18:4 it is; "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    Thus, the mention of Lot in Luke 17 STRENGTHENS the argument that ...
    1. SOME Believers will be raptured before the coming Judgment
    2. SOME Believers will pass through the Great Tribulation in a "wilderness" (Revelation Chapters 7, 12 & 13)
    3. SOME Believers will be caught IN Babylon the Great (Commercial Babylon) and suffer of her "plagues", but remain useless as a testimony on earth like salt that covers no area (Rev.18).

    I dare say you know such Christians yourself.
    Some nice arguments and good comments about denying self etc. However totally moot as you don't seem to follow what is even happening in Luke 17.

    Luk 17:22* And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.*
    Luk 17:23* And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them.

    Notice the CONTEXT.
    It is about a day of the Son of Man.
    Now do you get the connection where else this passage is mentioned?
    Perhaps this might help?:
    Luk 17:31* On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.*
    Luk 17:32* Remember Lot's wife.

    I hope you have recognised this is part of the Olivet Discourse.

    Mat 24:15* “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),*
    Mat 24:16* then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.*
    Mat 24:17* Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,*
    Mat 24:18* and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.*

    Now ANYONE who reads Luke 17 SHOULD recognise this is the SAME instruction as that in Matt 24.
    Is Matt 24 speaking about a rapture? Certainly NOT!
    If this was the rapture THEN it would be pointless to flee as you would be raptured!
    No, this is speaking about the START of the GT. a time when those who are in Jerusalem need to flee.

    There was a note about who is being addressed. The FACT is that EVERYONE who is there will need to heed these words.
    Ezekiel was instructed to blow the trumpet when the trouble came. Those who then responded may be saved.
    The argument about the Greek, simply shows that a person who is taken is not taken at a distance, but it is close quarters.
    Zechariah makes note of those who are taken:
    Zec 14:2* For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped.


    Now rape is I believe intimate and not a way that anyone wants to be taken.

    This is NOT about two types of Christians, but simply about two groups.
    One group responds to the warning and flees, the other does not and so is taken.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Some nice arguments and good comments about denying self etc. However totally moot as you don't seem to follow what is even happening in Luke 17.

    Luk 17:22* And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.*
    Luk 17:23* And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them.

    Notice the CONTEXT.
    It is about a day of the Son of Man.
    Now do you get the connection where else this passage is mentioned?
    Perhaps this might help?:
    Luk 17:31* On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.*
    Luk 17:32* Remember Lot's wife.

    I hope you have recognised this is part of the Olivet Discourse.

    Mat 24:15* “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),*
    Mat 24:16* then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.*
    Mat 24:17* Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,*
    Mat 24:18* and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.*

    Now ANYONE who reads Luke 17 SHOULD recognise this is the SAME instruction as that in Matt 24.
    Is Matt 24 speaking about a rapture? Certainly NOT!
    If this was the rapture THEN it would be pointless to flee as you would be raptured!
    No, this is speaking about the START of the GT. a time when those who are in Jerusalem need to flee.

    There was a note about who is being addressed. The FACT is that EVERYONE who is there will need to heed these words.
    Ezekiel was instructed to blow the trumpet when the trouble came. Those who then responded may be saved.
    The argument about the Greek, simply shows that a person who is taken is not taken at a distance, but it is close quarters.
    Zechariah makes note of those who are taken:
    Zec 14:2* For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped.


    Now rape is I believe intimate and not a way that anyone wants to be taken.

    This is NOT about two types of Christians, but simply about two groups.
    One group responds to the warning and flees, the other does not and so is taken.
    The brother addressed the contents and context of Luke 17. So my answer was about Luke 17. That there are parallels and even identical themes to Matthew 24 and 25 is given, but do I need to divert the OP away from Luke 17 to answer it? Am I called to task because I answered his objection solely from the text he chose? The "abuse" objected to in the OP revolved around three points in Luke 17:
    1. The preparedness of Christians to die physically
    2. The meaning of word "taken"
    3. The meaning of the Type in Lot and his wife.

    These I answered, and came to a conclusion. These arguments you have avoided. You have not addressed one of my points. Your objection is to assume that I cannot connect Luke 17 with Matthew 24 - something that I did not need to do. But now I will address your statement;

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Is Matt 24 speaking about a rapture? Certainly NOT!
    The questions posed in Matthew 24:3 are;
    1. Tell us, when shall these things be?
    2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming?
    3. and (what shall be the sign) of the end of the age?

    The Jews 24:1-31
    At the time of our Lord's Second Coming there will be THREE peoples on earth. (i) The Nations, (ii) The Nation of Israel, and (iii) the Believers (or, the Church). Unlike Mark and Luke, Matthew answers these questions in regard to ALL THREE peoples. From Matthew 24:1 to 31, all things are Jewish. From the Temple to false Christ's, to being hated worldwide, to Jerusalem, to Judea, to Daniel a Jewish prophet prophesying to "Daniel's People" - the Jews, and the Abomination of Desolation, even to Christ's landing on earth which is predicted to be on Mount of Olives, everything is about the Jews. Since there is no Rapture for the Jews, they are advised by the Lord Jesus that when they see what Daniel prophesied happen in Jerusalem of Judea, they must flee to the mountains in great haste.

    The Church 24:32 - 25:30
    But suddenly, after mentioning His touch-down and the "mourning" of the people who slew Him, the Lord turns to a PARABLE. According to Matthew 13:10-13 the Lord Jesus speaks in Parables FOR THE CHURCH. So the sudden change to a Parable in Matthew 24:32, and the term "ye" in both verses 32 and 33 shows that the Lord was now answering the three questions IN REGARD TO THE BELIEVERS. The BELIEVERS get parables and He was addressing DISCIPLES. This is further confirmed in that the talk is directed to SERVANTS OF THE LORD and VIRGINS. Now, the Nations hate Christ and would not lift a finger to serve Him, and the Jews hate Him vehemently and far from SERVING Christ, they murdered Him. So the context of Matthew 24:32 until 25:30 is all about, (i) those who receive PARABLES, (ii) those who are called SERVANTS of the Lord Jesus, (iii) those who are called VIRGINS, and (iv) those who need NO SIGNS since they life by faith. No SIGNS are given in this section but a MORAL condition is pushed to the fore. Let us then examine the closing verses of Matthew 24:32-51
    • Verse 36 clearly states that the Second Coming will be sudden and unexpected
    • Verse 37 says that MORAL condition of the earth will be the same as that before the Great Flood
    • Verse 38 says that PEOPLE of the WORLD were engaged in NORMAL THINGS and will, like those of Noah's time, not heed the warning of coming UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT
    • Verse 39 says these evil and unwary people will be TAKEN like in Noah's day. The Greek word "taken" here means "snatched in Judgement". It is the word used for our sins "taken away" by Judgement that fell on Jesus in John 1:29. The word is "airo", Strong's # 142 if you want to check.
    • Verse 39 uses the Greek word "parousia" for the "coming of the Lord" in this matter of universal judgement. It means "PRESENCE". It does not mean that the Lord is seen or already on the mount of Olives. Another of TWO Greek words, "Apokalypsis" which means "the Revealing", or "Erchomai" which means his "Arrival", are used. So verse 39 only alludes to the "PRESENCE" of Christ near this awful judgement.
    • Verse 40 starts with "THEN". This introduces something that will happen ADDITIONALLY to the beginning of Judgement which is connected to Christ's PRESENCE. That is, IN ADDITION to the Judgement starting, TWO will be in a field, and TWO will be at the Mill (and Luke 17:34 adds TWO together in a bed).
    • Verse 40 and 41 do not tell us who the TWO are. The only light we have is that; (i) TWO is the number of TESTIMONY - or WITNESS, and (ii) the word "taken" is not "Airo" but "Paralambano" - "Taken along as intimate companions" like Matthew 17:1.
    • Verse 42 finally tells us who they are: They are DISCIPLES! (i) They are equated with "YE" again - and our Lord was addressing His disciples. (ii) "YOUR Lord" indicates that they were BELIEVERS. Neither the Nations, nor the Nation of Israel admit Jesus as "THEIR Lord".
    • Verse 43 CONFIRMS who they are. They are members of a HOUSEHOLD. The only HOUSEHOLD in the Bible that has our Lord Jesus as "THEIR Lord" is the Church - Ephesians 2:19

    Now all that is left to decide is WHERE are those who are "taken as intimate companions" taken to? And WHERE are those who are "LEFT", left. The answer is right before us. Those who are "LEFT" are LEFT working the "field", the "mill" and the "bed". So where are those who are "TAKEN as companions" TAKEN TO? A place where there is NO field, NO mill and NO bed. No matter what one ascribes as a DESTINATION it is (i) OBVIOUS that they are RAPTURED, and (ii) that they are taken from the earth. The word we use, "Rapture" is "Harpadzo" in the Greek and means "caught away". "Harpadzo" indicates movement but does not give the direction. But since "Paralambano" means that we ACCOMPANY the person who TAKES us, and the Lord has NOT YET returned to earth, but is "PRESENT" in the clouds, the "catching away" of those who are TAKEN can only be to the clouds.

    This is confirmed by 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4.

    I propose that that a RAPTURE of CERTAIN of the Lord Jesus' SERVANTS to the clouds - to the PRESENCE of the Lord Jesus, IS CLEARLY SHOWN IN MATTHEW 24.

    For brevity's sake I will not deal with the Nations, but their fate at Christ's Coming is found in Matthew 25:31-46. It is clearly so stated.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Up until Luke 17:32 you only produced verses that apply to the UNBELIEVER. They carry no weight for your discussion. God's wrath and destruction is promised on these men and women, and even "all flesh". So to bring them into your argument is moot.
    Your idea is kind of funny, since Jesus is Who brought those events into the discussion about how it will be in the days of His second coming!

    Your argument has fallen into the cracks from the very start.

    Luke 17:26-30
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    KJV

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    At the time of our Lord's Second Coming there will be THREE peoples on earth. (i) The Nations, (ii) The Nation of Israel, and (iii) the Believers (or, the Church).
    You start with a incorrect premise. You say the church will be on earth, however they are given up to be killed by war, and then no one on earth survives the mark of the beast (except perhaps the 144,000)

    [*]Verse 36 clearly states that the Second Coming will be sudden and unexpected
    Only unexpected after when the lights go out and the sun does not come up. AND only unexpected is that those on earth will think how can he return when he is already before us?

    [*]Verse 39 says these evil and unwary people will be TAKEN like in Noah's day. The Greek word "taken" here means "snatched in Judgement". It is the word used for our sins "taken away" by Judgement that fell on Jesus in John 1:29. The word is "airo", Strong's # 142 if you want to check.
    Agree you do want to be taken at this time.

    [*]Verse 40 and 41 do not tell us who the TWO are. The only light we have is that; (i) TWO is the number of TESTIMONY - or WITNESS, and (ii) the word "taken" is not "Airo" but "Paralambano" - "Taken along as intimate companions" like Matthew 17:1.[*]Verse 42 finally tells us who they are: They are DISCIPLES! (i) They are equated with "YE" again - and our Lord was addressing His disciples. (ii) "YOUR Lord" indicates that they were BELIEVERS. Neither the Nations, nor the Nation of Israel admit Jesus as "THEIR Lord".[*]Verse 43 CONFIRMS who they are. They are members of a HOUSEHOLD. The only HOUSEHOLD in the Bible that has our Lord Jesus as "THEIR Lord" is the Church - Ephesians 2:19[/LIST]
    Incorrect. Those left are either the 144,000 or another set of unbelievers. So the ones taken are definitely wicked. Regardless, Again the church is not upon the earth at this time as they are removed by death!

    This is confirmed by 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4.
    You are correct for IF there was a rapture of living it would have to be post. As the dead in Christ rise first. However I said, IF, as there is not a rapture.

    It is appointed unto man once to die.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Why would they LEAVE THE EARTH when Jesus' hadn't even been born ? If their mission on earth was complete then God could have and maybe would have taken them, but Jesus needed men on earth to Preach to, to shed his blood fr to save them, so why would you think in this manner ? The Churches Mission will be COMPLETE, they will have spread the Gospel unto the whole world, mission complete, Church is thus needed in Heaven to Marry the Lamb, SEE Rev. 19, we Marry the Lamb then return with Jesus, this is not that hard brother.

    Lot was taken OUT OF THE CITY..........Noah was take OUT OF THE FLOOD........The Church will be taken OUT OF THE EARTH which is about to be Judged. To be honest, I don't get you Christians who can't see what is obvious in the bible, it just boggles my mind.

    The one that is taken and the other left only fits a Rapture. As in the days of Noah they will be marrying and drinking as if everything is normal like they were before the flood came. Anyone thinking rationally will understand this can't be about the Second Coming because right before the Second Coming I can tell you they WILL NOT BE acting as if nothing was going on/Marrying/Drinking etc. etc., they will be dodging the Plagues of God, running and hiding etc. etc. We all understand that the Rapture will be a SURPRISE, but the Second Coming will not be, we understand that 1260 days after the Beast Conquers Jerusalem Jesus will return we will only be surprised by the Rapture, not the Second Coming.

    The eagles are the Church........Sees fowls/birds in Rev. 19 via the Marriage Supper. The Carcass is Armageddon, the Eagles/Church will be with Jesus at Armageddon.
    I strongly... suggest you study the end of the Luke 17 Scripture again, and compare Jesus' answer in the last verse with the version in Matt.24:28. His answer about those 'taken' is NOT... about being taken to Him! I'm sorry if that upsets you, because the Pre-trib Rapture preachers have mistaught the 'taken' idea from Luke 17.

    Luke 17:36-37
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    KJV


    The Matthew 24 version:

    Matt 24:28
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV



    If you are 'taken' as a dead "carcase" to where the "eagles" are gathered, that is the opposite of being gathered to Jesus! It's very simple. Those who stand in Christ Jesus are NEVER a symbolic dead "carcase", and God's eagles do NOT go after carrion (the dead). If you don't like what our Lord Jesus showed with that, which is a warning for His Church to beware, then you can take it up with Him when He appears. I won't argue with you, His answer to His disciples in that Luke 17:37 Scripture is very clear, especially with the Matthew 24:28 version.

    When our Lord Jesus taught that He wants to find us working, giving meat in due season, that means NOT being the first one 'taken', but instead keeping our nose to the grind stone, being a good steward doing the work He gave us, all the way up to His return. This is what He showed us concerning the goodman of the house who will know in what 'watch' the thief would break in.



    Sorry if this hurts, but it's time to study the Scripture for yourself instead of listening to men who like your money, and wrongly preach that our Lord Jesus promised us a rose garden by taking us out of the coming tribulation.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post

    Therefore, I pick up your argument in the red bold Luke 17:34-37. There you have to decide for yourself if you been true to the Greek word "taken". The Greek word rendered "taken" in verses 35 and 36 is, "paralambano". It means "taken as an intimate companion". Its first mention, 3 times, in Matthew 1:20, 1:24 and 2:13 shows its meaning. It is Joseph "taking" Mary to be his wife TWICE, and the THIRD time, "taking" Mary's child, Jesus with as an intimate companion. I fear you have not taken this into account, for your meaning is that you have CONTINUED with the UNBELIEVER as "taken" in judgement - another Greek word altogether. And verse 33 changes the CONTEXT to from unbeliever to believer - as you have said in your commentary. Thus, verses 34 to 37 talk of who is "taken as an intimate companion" and who is LEFT behind.
    Can't dwell on one sole Greek word like "taken" by itself when Jesus' answer in verse 37 explains whether it's meant in the good or bad sense. Must refer to His answer.

    Our Lord Jesus further explained how that taken idea is meant when He gave the metaphor about the goodman of the house:

    Matt 24:41-47
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    KJV


    Why would He warn to 'watch' if being taken was about being caught up to Him? Nothing to be concerned about if He simply meant being taken to Him. But instead, notice He warns that the goodman of the house is to remain on watch. And His faithful servant is one whom He finds at His coming doing that rule over his household giving meat in due season. Remember the idea of the "strong meat" in Hebrews? It's about knowing the signs of the end and watching, leading up to Christ's return, and teaching the brethren all the way to Christ's coming, i.e., working, not being 'taken'. The taken idea is in conjunction with the coming false Messiah who comes first. The flood of Noah's day is being compared to deception by the serpent in Rev.12 concerning the last days.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Sorry if this hurts, but it's time to study the Scripture for yourself instead of listening to men who like your money, and wrongly preach that our Lord Jesus promised us a rose garden by taking us out of the coming tribulation.

    Amen Dave...… ....no sugar coating.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Your idea is kind of funny, since Jesus is Who brought those events into the discussion about how it will be in the days of His second coming!

    Your argument has fallen into the cracks from the very start.

    Luke 17:26-30
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    KJV
    Yes. But who does this prophecy aim at? The Church? No! The people of the world!

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. But who does this prophecy aim at? The Church? No! The people of the world!
    Ok. But everyone outside the ark at the wicked. Which include those of the church who did not overcome. Now who does Noah represent, the overcomers of the church or the 144,000. I would say the latter but requardless Noah did end up dying.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    You start with a incorrect premise. You say the church will be on earth, however they are given up to be killed by war, and then no one on earth survives the mark of the beast (except perhaps the 144,000)



    Only unexpected after when the lights go out and the sun does not come up. AND only unexpected is that those on earth will think how can he return when he is already before us?



    Agree you do want to be taken at this time.



    Incorrect. Those left are either the 144,000 or another set of unbelievers. So the ones taken are definitely wicked. Regardless, Again the church is not upon the earth at this time as they are removed by death!



    You are correct for IF there was a rapture of living it would have to be post. As the dead in Christ rise first. However I said, IF, as there is not a rapture.

    It is appointed unto man once to die.
    Thank you for your reply. You have given your opinion and objection but not a single scripture, nor a bit of exegesis, to show the correct understanding. I will just answer your last statement with scripture. 1st Corinthians 15:51: "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed".

    That Hebrews 9:27 says that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die does not mean all men die. It means that a man cannot die more than once.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    I strongly... suggest you study the end of the Luke 17 Scripture again, and compare Jesus' answer in the last verse with the version in Matt.24:28. His answer about those 'taken' is NOT... about being taken to Him! I'm sorry if that upsets you, because the Pre-trib Rapture preachers have mistaught the 'taken' idea from Luke 17.

    Luke 17:36-37
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    KJV


    The Matthew 24 version:

    Matt 24:28
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    KJV



    If you are 'taken' as a dead "carcase" to where the "eagles" are gathered, that is the opposite of being gathered to Jesus! It's very simple. Those who stand in Christ Jesus are NEVER a symbolic dead "carcase", and God's eagles do NOT go after carrion (the dead). If you don't like what our Lord Jesus showed with that, which is a warning for His Church to beware, then you can take it up with Him when He appears. I won't argue with you, His answer to His disciples in that Luke 17:37 Scripture is very clear, especially with the Matthew 24:28 version.

    When our Lord Jesus taught that He wants to find us working, giving meat in due season, that means NOT being the first one 'taken', but instead keeping our nose to the grind stone, being a good steward doing the work He gave us, all the way up to His return. This is what He showed us concerning the goodman of the house who will know in what 'watch' the thief would break in.



    Sorry if this hurts, but it's time to study the Scripture for yourself instead of listening to men who like your money, and wrongly preach that our Lord Jesus promised us a rose garden by taking us out of the coming tribulation.
    Nothing hurts. We discuss the meaning of language within its context and within the laws of grammar.

    You, like the others, have not answered my objections. I know a lot was written, but you can say I am incorrect a thousand times, but if you bring no counter, we will just have to agree to disagree. Your argument in the OP was based on three things:
    1. The meaning of "losing one's soul-life"
    2. The meaning of "airo" ("taken" in judgement) verses "paralambano" ("taken" as an intimate companion)
    3. Who was "Taken" and Who was "Left" and the PLACE

    1. I showed that losing one's soul-life is not the same as losing one's physical life.
    2. I showed that those "taken" in Luke 17:33-37 were "TAKEN as intimate companions"
    3. I showed that those "Taken as intimate companions" were Believers, and those "Left" were "LEFT" in the same place as the slaughter of men and animals


    This ... is what you have to answer. Your OPINION is valuable. Your textual and contextual argument however is what wins and convinces.

  15. #15
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Can't dwell on one sole Greek word like "taken" by itself when Jesus' answer in verse 37 explains whether it's meant in the good or bad sense. Must refer to His answer.

    Our Lord Jesus further explained how that taken idea is meant when He gave the metaphor about the goodman of the house:

    Matt 24:41-47
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    KJV


    Why would He warn to 'watch' if being taken was about being caught up to Him? Nothing to be concerned about if He simply meant being taken to Him. But instead, notice He warns that the goodman of the house is to remain on watch. And His faithful servant is one whom He finds at His coming doing that rule over his household giving meat in due season. Remember the idea of the "strong meat" in Hebrews? It's about knowing the signs of the end and watching, leading up to Christ's return, and teaching the brethren all the way to Christ's coming, i.e., working, not being 'taken'. The taken idea is in conjunction with the coming false Messiah who comes first. The flood of Noah's day is being compared to deception by the serpent in Rev.12 concerning the last days.
    My answer is mostly in my posting #5. May I refer it to you.

    Just so you know, language is to transmit ideas. God gave it, and these rules endure that the correct idea is given. If those "taken" in Judgement is the word "airo" - snatched away in severe judgement" like our sins in John 1:29, then we must honor it. If the word "taken" like a wife on a journey is "paralambano", we must honor it. When men write a contract, they hire the best lawyers they can afford to see that the LANGUAGE contains no loop holes. How much more has the Great God of the universe written His Oracles so as to transmit the correct idea.

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