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Thread: When will the OT saints arise?

  1. #196
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    To be perfect but what Jesus said about obtaining eternal life did not require this extra step.
    It does.

    Look at it this way, the rich young man was a Jew and under the law. When he told Jesus that he had observed the commandments from birth, he was told that in ADDITION, he should follow Christ. Furthermore, how can a Gentile achieve "perfection" if not by following Jesus?

  2. #197
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, it's "additional". Why would you even think to say it could be irrelevant? It's all relevant even the two verses before that which everyone is ignoring.

    Under the OC, to obtain eternal life you had to keep the commandments according to Jesus. Am I the only one to accept what he said?

    And if you wanted to be perfect, go above the norm, then you sold everything followed Jesus.
    Indeed under the OC, obeying the law was the requirement for eternal life. However, very few actually succeeded given that it was said: "if you keep the law but offend in one, you are guilty of all" James 2:10. Jesus recognised this pitfall, that's why he asked the young to come and follow him.

    What is plainly inferred but not explicitly stated is that by agreeing to follow Jesus, the rich man would no longer rely on the law but by faith.

  3. #198
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No one is ignoring the two verses prior. It is a SUM of all that Jesus said and NOT just a portion - which is what you are doing.
    Under the OC it was IMPOSSIBLE to obtain eternal life.
    The OC is NOT abut obtaining eternal life but about how to live in this life.
    In addition to your fine summation, Hebrews 11 recounted the righteous in the OC and one thing they all had in common is their FAITH in God. Bible never attributed their righteousness to their success in keeping the law.

  4. #199
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    In addition to your fine summation, Hebrews 11 recounted the righteous in the OC and one thing they all had in common is their FAITH in God. Bible never attributed their righteousness to their success in keeping the law.
    Righteousness is actions based on faith.
    Keeping the Law simply means you don't sin, however simply not sinning is not enough, this is why we have summations of the principles of the Law which is loving God and Man, which goes beyond the Letter of the Law and to the Spirit of the Law.
    In order to be with a perfect God we need to be perfect, and this we cannot achieve of ourselves, but it is ALWAYS a work of God.
    Thus as noted in Hebrews 11 these people lived by faith.
    Was David a man who was a friend of God? Did he break the Law, and will he be counted as righteous due to keeping the Law? No he will be known as righteous because of his relationship with God and desire for a clean and right heart. David wanted the principles, to follow God with all his heart, and not simply keep the Commandments.

  5. #200
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It does.

    Look at it this way, the rich young man was a Jew and under the law. When he told Jesus that he had observed the commandments from birth, he was told that in ADDITION, he should follow Christ. Furthermore, how can a Gentile achieve "perfection" if not by following Jesus?
    The text cannot change. Jesus said to keep the commandments to get eternal life. If one wanted to be "perfect" then there was more one could do but that wasn't needed for eternal life.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #201
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Indeed under the OC, obeying the law was the requirement for eternal life. However, very few actually succeeded given that it was said: "if you keep the law but offend in one, you are guilty of all"
    True but there was also a way to have these offenses removed so it was possible to achieve eternal life.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #202
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The text cannot change. Jesus said to keep the commandments to get eternal life. If one wanted to be "perfect" then there was more one could do but that wasn't needed for eternal life.
    No Jesus didn't say ONLY that. That was but the STARTING point of the steps required in order to get eternal life.

    You are like someone joining Alcoholics Anonymous, who reads step 1. and says - OK if I do that then I am sorted.
    The first sentence was NOT the total of what was required.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The text cannot change. Jesus said to keep the commandments to get eternal life. If one wanted to be "perfect" then there was more one could do but that wasn't needed for eternal life.
    No Jesus didn't say ONLY that. That was but the STARTING point of the steps required in order to get eternal life.

    You are like someone joining Alcoholics Anonymous, who reads step 1. and says - OK if I do that then I am sorted.
    The first sentence was NOT the total of what was required.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    True but there was also a way to have these offenses removed so it was possible to achieve eternal life.
    Also incorrect as Hebrews clearly states:
    Heb 10:4* For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    There is NO WAY under the OC to have these offenses removed.

  9. #204
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The text cannot change. Jesus said to keep the commandments to get eternal life. If one wanted to be "perfect" then there was more one could do but that wasn't needed for eternal life.
    You seem to believe that being "perfect" is different from having eternal life, but they are actually synonymous.

    Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You seem to believe that being "perfect" is different from having eternal life, but they are actually synonymous.

    Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
    Well stated. He seems to think that being perfect is not required to have eternal life. He doesn't recognise that the first statement is only the start of the requirments.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    True but there was also a way to have these offenses removed so it was possible to achieve eternal life.
    Yes, that's not in dispute. As FHG pointed out, those in OT age that will enjoy eternal life achieved that by their faith in God according to Heb 11 and not necessarily by observing the law to the letter and not offending even in one.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You seem to believe that being "perfect" is different from having eternal life, but they are actually synonymous.
    They are not synonymous according to Christ. You could have eternal life without being "perfect". To be perfect was "going above the call of duty" as they say. Getting an A on a test is not the same as getting an A+ is it?

    It's similar to the concept of being the least in heaven vs. anyone not the least in heaven. Both are in heaven but one is lesser.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You seem to believe that being "perfect" is different from having eternal life, but they are actually synonymous.
    They are not synonymous according to Christ. You could have eternal life without being "perfect". To be perfect was "going above the call of duty" as they say. Getting an A on a test is not the same as getting an A+ is it?

    It's similar to the concept of being the least in heaven vs. anyone not the least in heaven. Both are in heaven but one is lesser.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #208
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Yes, that's not in dispute. As FHG pointed out, those in OT age that will enjoy eternal life achieved that by their faith in God according to Heb 11 and not necessarily by observing the law to the letter and not offending even in one.
    Your disagreement is with what Christ said was possible not with me. I am only quoting Christ. Christ has a way of unsettling those who have preset viewpoints. Scripture must have more authority than our beliefs. Again I quote Christ, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Your disagreement is with what Christ said was possible not with me. I am only quoting Christ. Christ has a way of unsettling those who have preset viewpoints. Scripture must have more authority than our beliefs. Again I quote Christ, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
    No you do NOT quote Christ. You PARTIALLY quote Christ.
    It is important to give ALL He said on the matter and not just a bit of it.

    Christ did NOT say anything contrary to the OT nor to anything others who wrote the NT put either. In fact they wrote in agreement with Him.
    As scripture states a person CANNOT be saved simply by keeping the Commandments, so it shows you have took but part of what Jesus said and left out what else He stated which was ALSO REQUIRED.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They are not synonymous according to Christ. You could have eternal life without being "perfect". To be perfect was "going above the call of duty" as they say. Getting an A on a test is not the same as getting an A+ is it? It's similar to the concept of being the least in heaven vs. anyone not the least in heaven. Both are in heaven but one is lesser.
    Perfection is the same as incorruption. See 1 Cor 15:42-44

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