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Thread: When will the OT saints arise?

  1. #16
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't know what the consensus is, but I'm sure there's no clarity on when the OT saints will resurrect.


    1. In case I missed it, does anyone know any scripture that gives the timeline?
    2. Will the OT saints participate in the Millennium or will they rise when it is over?
    Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
    26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
    27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
    28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


    What is the timing of verse 25-27? Is it not the same timing as the following?

    Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    And if yes, where most agree, maybe except for Pretribbers, the time meant in Matthew 25:10-13 involves the 2nd coming. That would indicate Luke 13:28 is fulfilled when the 2nd coming is fulfilled. Can't sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, if none of these haven't risen as of the 2nd coming, right? Obviously then, OT saints rise at the 2nd coming as well. They would be included with the dead in Christ who rise first. After all, they would have to be in Christ if they are to be included in His everlasting kingdom once He returns. Or least you would think so.

  2. #17
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'm not sure I follow your logic?
    If the Queen of the south is an OT saint, then they rise at the judgment.
    At that time the heavens are no more- Job 14, and its the last day.

    Jn 6
    40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

    Jn 12
    47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So did Jesus. Where did he go after? Where do you think these folks went after being resurrected?
    Those saints who were resurrected with Jesus, Matthew 27:52-53, didn't receive immortality then; they died again proved by how they are not around today. But like the martyrs of the Great Tribulation that Jesus will resurrect at His Return; Revelation 20:4, the second death has no power over them. Revelation 20:6 Their names are Written in the Book of Life and when it is opened, at the Great White Thone Judgement after the Millennium, they will receive Eternal Life.

    They never went to heaven, Jesus says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13 If they did, the time for them to do so would have been at Jesus Ascension. No mention of it in Acts 1:9

  4. #19
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This is because the OT makes no mention of the Millennium.
    This is why some claim Isaiah 65 & 66 is about the Millennium.

    However when we read the NT we also have this:
    Joh 11:23* Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”*
    Joh 11:24* Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

    This is the clearest statement as to the understanding when people who have died will rise again.
    It is on the Last Day.

    So the question is when is that Last Day?
    My understanding is that it is the Final Day of Judgement.

    Now I have wrestled with this because we have these verses:
    Joh 6:39* And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.*
    Joh 6:40* For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    This puts the last day here as the day when Jesus returns. So the question then is whether Jesus is using the phrase in the same way as Martha or if He has a Day whihc is for those who believe in Him who are raised.

    Paul seemed to put it this way:
    1Co 15:23* But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.*
    1Co 15:24* Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.*
    1Co 15:25* For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.*
    1Co 15:26* The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    Notice the order:
    Christ
    at His coming those who belong to Christ
    Then the end (which seems to last 1,000 years) when the rest are resurrected.

    this then would match Revelation 20
    Christ
    The first resurrection
    The MK followed by the second resurrection
    There are only two resurrections in the future. The resurrection of life(John 5:29), IOW the first resurrection(Rev 20:4 and 20:6), and the resurrection of damnation(John 5:29), IOW when the rest of the dead live again(Rev 20:5)and that both resurrections don't occur at the same time. It is then a simple matter of asking yourself, which resurrection will the OT saints likely rise in?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There are only two resurrections in the future. The resurrection of life(John 5:29), IOW the first resurrection(Rev 20:4 and 20:6), and the resurrection of damnation(John 5:29), IOW when the rest of the dead live again(Rev 20:5)and that both resurrections don't occur at the same time. It is then a simple matter of asking yourself, which resurrection will the OT saints likely rise in?
    Jn 5:24 and Rev 20 is a better fit.

    Jn 5
    24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

    25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


    Rev 20
    6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years


    The time now is for not coming into judgment. We have already passed from death to life and the second death is avoided.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Jn 5:24 and Rev 20 is a better fit.

    Jn 5
    24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

    25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


    Rev 20
    6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years


    The time now is for not coming into judgment. We have already passed from death to life and the second death is avoided.
    It's not a better fit. You know one reason why? Read Rev 20:4 again and notice who the first resurrection is being applied to. It is being applied to those that have already physically died, and that it is being applied to them, not before they physically die, but after they have physically died. Only a bodily resurrection makes sense of the text in that case.

  7. #22
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    It's not a better fit. You know one reason why? Read Rev 20:4 again and notice who the first resurrection is being applied to. It is being applied to those that have already physically died, and that it is being applied to them, not before they physically die, but after they have physically died. Only a bodily resurrection makes sense of the text in that case.
    Then how do you make sense of this...,

    Jn 5
    25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  8. #23
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Then how do you make sense of this...,

    Jn 5
    25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
    But how do you apply that to someone after they have already physically died? That only applies to someone already still physically alive.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands...equals...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...which equals the first resurrection. When does the text indicate these souls John sees, living and reigning with Christ a thousand years? Before their physical deaths, or after their physical deaths? If it is after, one can't apply Jn 5:25 to the souls John sees here after they have already physically died and expect that to make sense. After all, aren't you saying the first resurrection and Jn 5:25 are one and the same?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There are only two resurrections in the future. The resurrection of life(John 5:29), IOW the first resurrection(Rev 20:4 and 20:6), and the resurrection of damnation(John 5:29), IOW when the rest of the dead live again(Rev 20:5)and that both resurrections don't occur at the same time. It is then a simple matter of asking yourself, which resurrection will the OT saints likely rise in?
    I agree there are TWO resurrections.
    However John 5:29 is NOT the resurrection of Life. John 5:29 is the resurrection FOR Judgement.
    John 5:24 & 25 is about the resurrection for life.
    John 5:24 & 25 is about Rev 20:4 & 6.
    John 5:29 is about Rev 20:12 which is ALSO the resurrection for Judgement.

    Notice what is stated in John 5:29:
    Joh 5:29* and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

    This is about judgement based upon the good or the evil you have done.

    This is in contrast to this:
    Joh 5:24* Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.*
    Joh 5:25* “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

    This is about hearing and responding in faith. They do NOT face the resurrection for judgement of good and evil, of works.

  10. #25
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    But how do you apply that to someone after they have already physically died? That only applies to someone already still physically alive.
    Those who have physically died have already been given a white robe and do not come into judgment.


    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
    26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
    27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
    28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


    What is the timing of verse 25-27? Is it not the same timing as the following?

    Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    And if yes, where most agree, maybe except for Pretribbers, the time meant in Matthew 25:10-13 involves the 2nd coming. That would indicate Luke 13:28 is fulfilled when the 2nd coming is fulfilled. Can't sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, if none of these haven't risen as of the 2nd coming, right? Obviously then, OT saints rise at the 2nd coming as well. They would be included with the dead in Christ who rise first. After all, they would have to be in Christ if they are to be included in His everlasting kingdom once He returns. Or least you would think so.
    Actually what it requires is for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be resurrected.
    The Kingdom of God does start when Jesus returns, but it hasn't ended when the MK ends.
    If A, I & J are resurrected with Rev 20:12 then this also points to these people being resurrected at that time.
    Guess what, those who are resurrected for judgement are resurrected at that time therefore there is no requirement from your quote for the resurrection of AI&J to be earlier.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is very little on the resurrection and its timing in the OT, but it is there. It seems to be an assumption, because God is regularly reaching out to Israel to make a way past the angels that guard the way to the tree of life.

    So there is this idea of history progressing towards a time when Israel will be liberated from the oppression that separates God from His people. He will be "with them." Thus, the idea of an Age to Come, and a future Kingdom, evolves in the thinking of the Prophets. Perhaps this idea was there from the beginning?

    Isaiah mentions that death will be overcome. And Daniel specifies an event at which both the righteous and the unrighteous are raised from the dead to be judged. Although this event may appear to take place simultaneously, I'm not sure this is so. It is an event that simply transcends the current age. It is simply stated that Israel, both good and bad, will be judged for how they behaved in the current age. This will take place *after* the current age, when the current age ends.

    When Jesus, still under the Law of Moses, speaks of the resurrection, he retains this idea that the resurrection event is future and beyond the present age. It is on the "last day." And so, the resurrection of the righteous is made to be synonymous with the coming of Christ itself. But I'm not sure that Christ said the resurrection of the unrighteous is synonymous with this event--only that death is defeated on behalf of the righteous on this day.
    Agree with you up to here.

    So it is largely dependent on Rev 20 that we get the Millennial separation between the resurrection of the just and the unjust. The righteous alone are raised from the dead at Christ's coming, at the beginning of the Millennium. And the unjust, together with the righteous of the Millennial age, will be raised in a "2nd resurrection" at the end of the Millennium.
    This is where you go wrong. Who is just and who is unjust?
    WHERE and WHEN is that decided?
    It is decided AT the Judgement.
    So when is that Judgement?
    It is the Final Judgement.

    People confuse the resurrection of those who are IN Jesus, with the general resurrection in which there are just and unjust people.

    This is a natural evolution, because it may have appeared much simpler when the Scriptures were only dealing with the just and the unjust in Israel. But the People of God came to encompass not just Israel, but also the nations of the world. And so, the Millennium became an extension of issues beyond Israel's Diasora in the current age. The Millennium would bring about a resolution to both Israel and the nations, and mortal life would continue in the Millennial age.

    This therefore implies that judgment extends beyond the last day of the current age to incorporate mankind in the Millennial age. It requires that judgment incorporate a "2nd resurrection" at the end of the Millennial age, to reward the righteous of that age, and to punish the unrighteous who live during that time.
    This doesn't work as you say because the just and unjust were always to be resurrected TOGETHER for Judgement and some would receive everlasting life and others everlasting shame.

  13. #28
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree there are TWO resurrections.
    However John 5:29 is NOT the resurrection of Life. John 5:29 is the resurrection FOR Judgement.
    John 5:24 & 25 is about the resurrection for life.
    John 5:24 & 25 is about Rev 20:4 & 6.
    John 5:29 is about Rev 20:12 which is ALSO the resurrection for Judgement.

    Notice what is stated in John 5:29:
    Joh 5:29* and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

    This is about judgement based upon the good or the evil you have done.

    This is in contrast to this:
    Joh 5:24* Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.*
    Joh 5:25* “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

    This is about hearing and responding in faith. They do NOT face the resurrection for judgement of good and evil, of works.
    So why aren't you Amil then since you appear to be agreeing with some of their position? And how can you seriously claim John 5:29 is not the resurrection unto life when it very plainly says so right in the text itself? And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life(John 5:29 ). Unfortunately I'm unable to follow your line of reasoning here.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    All the above refers to the church (the dead in Christ or those that are his). Only 1 Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.* which is not explicit can be said to hint at the timeline of the resurrection of the OT saints.
    Indeed, the Church has a resurrection BEFORE the rest of the dead, which is basically my view.
    So we have Jesus, the Church and then the rest.

    So in order for the OT saints to be resurrected first, they MUST be already Judged to be included WITH the Church.
    You see the Church has the Seal of the Holy Spirit - the Mark of God, and those who have the Mark of God are raised in that first resurrection.
    Therefore you need to demonstrate that people who are NOT of the Church would somehow be included with the resurrection of the Church.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Those saints who were resurrected with Jesus, Matthew 27:52-53, didn't receive immortality then;
    So you don't receive immortality when you are resurrected?

    They never went to heaven,
    Where did they go after being resurrected? Where are they now?

    Jesus says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13
    I think the verse is specific to Christ in relation that he came down from heaven.

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    So the thief on the cross is not in heaven?

    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


    iam at lost for words.....

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