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Thread: When will the OT saints arise?

  1. #31
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've always had trouble with this. Your perspective sounds reasonable, and may be the solution for me. Are you saying that the Kingdom Age is part of the execution of Christ's victory over the world? I know that at Christ's Coming, the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of Christ. But apparently in the Millennium there will still be victories to win, enemies to subdue, and ultimately death to destroy? Let me know if I understand you correctly?
    Basically yes.
    The Kingdom Age is the Age in-between the present Age and the future Age where there is no death for anyone etc.
    It is the time of transformation.
    It also means the reason WHY there is a first resurrection. We will have work to do, ruling the nations and getting them on track.
    Dan 7 notes this:
    Dan 7:12* As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    This season and time is the MK.

  2. #32
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't know what the consensus is, but I'm sure there's no clarity on when the OT saints will resurrect.


    1. In case I missed it, does anyone know any scripture that gives the timeline?
    2. Will the OT saints participate in the Millennium or will they rise when it is over?
    In short, since Daniel 12 is about the 70th week in which there is a 1260 day period, we know these Saints spoken of will be raised and stand in heir lot at this time, when Israel is Rescued by the Messiah Jesus. And at that time Michael shall stand up (verses 1 and 2).....means Satan is kicked out of Heaven, cast down to earth, and thus chases Israel into Petra where she hides for 1260 days. And at this time there will be a TIME OF TROUBLE like never seen before (Tribulation period), that is why the Jews who REPENT Flee of course. And at THAT TIME thy people shall be DELIVERED, evertone fund in the book of life (ALL Jews who accept Jesus Christ Blood Sacrifice). Many that SLEEP shall awake, some to everlasting life..........BUT WHEN ? When the Children of Israel are DELIVERED !! We know that happens when Jesus lands on the Mt. of Olives, they hide/go through tribulation for 1260 days, then Jesus shows up and wipes the floor with the Beast and all his minions.

    Daniel then is told to shut up the book until the end, but Daniel is tld a wee bit more. One Angel asks how long it will be until all of these wonders end (Events Daniel are being shown) and it seems Jesus (Man in Linen) tells Daniel that from the time the holy people are Conquered (Power Scattered), until these wonders end [via what we know is his Second Coming], there will be 1260 days. I call it the 1260 EVENT, it is when the First Seal is opened and the Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth Conquering and to Conquer.

    I therefore look at the 1290 and the 1335 in the very same manner. HOW LONG will it be until the end of these other wonders, Jesus then tells us about a Event 1290 days until the end and an Event 1335 days until the end or Second Coming. Daniel even asks the question himself this time.

    Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    So Daniel asks the same question the Angel asked, WHEN SHALL BE THE END OF THESE THINGS ? Then in verses 11, 12 and 13 Jesus tells him about two more coming events.

    Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    So Jesus says to Daniel the same thing he said in verses 6 and 7, he says when the Abomination of Desolation happens there will be 1290 days [till these wonders end]. Blessed is he that comes to the 1335...........so there is another EVENT that starts 1335 days before the Second Coming ends it all also. I see the 1335 as the Two-witnesses showing up, it is TRULY A BLESSING !! Malachi 4:5-6 tells us this, Elijah will show up BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD (First Seal is opened).

    So the Two-witnesses show up 75 says before the Anti-Christ becomes THE BEAST at the 1260, but does that fit ? Yes, the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial (end of the 3rd Woe). So it fits perfectly since bot have to be in their offices 1260 days. Then the AoD happens 30 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem, but does this fit ? OF COURSE, why would Jesus warn the Jews to flee AFTER the Beast Conquers Jerusalem ? Answer, he wouldn't, Jesus tells then exactly when they need to flee, they have 30 days to get out of dodge (Jerusalem/Israel). It all fits like a glove, that is why we know something is of the Holy Spirit.

    So Daniel 12 is speaking about the 1260, which ends when Jesus returns, that is when the Old Testament Saints will be raised up, the Church or Dead in Christ will be raised up at the Rapture, 7 years before the Old Testament/Jewish Saints.

  3. #33
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually what it requires is for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be resurrected.
    The Kingdom of God does start when Jesus returns, but it hasn't ended when the MK ends.
    If A, I & J are resurrected with Rev 20:12 then this also points to these people being resurrected at that time.
    Guess what, those who are resurrected for judgement are resurrected at that time therefore there is no requirement from your quote for the resurrection of AI&J to be earlier.
    One thing about me in particular, I fully agree that oftentimes there are gaps between certain events in various passages, and that it is not always obvious every single time. But the gaps have to at least make sense and agree with other Scriptures. I see no reason for there to be a gap between the 2nd coming and when the saints in the OT rise. Or at least I don't see the reasons you submitted being good reasons in this case. Maybe I'll change my mind later, who knows, but as of now, I'm just not seeing it.

  4. #34
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    The OT saints have already been raised.


    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


    I had thought this was a well known fact......

  5. #35
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The OT saints have already been raised.


    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
    They were not glorified at that time. Jesus said he was going to the Father and that we wouldn't follow him there immediately, but much later when he comes again a second time to receive us.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  6. #36
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So why aren't you Amil then since you appear to be agreeing with some of their position? And how can you seriously claim John 5:29 is not the resurrection unto life when it very plainly says so right in the text itself? And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life(John 5:29 ). Unfortunately I'm unable to follow your line of reasoning here.
    You know full well that I am PreMil.
    PreMil means I believe the Millennium is AFTER Jesus returns.
    AMil and PostMil means they believe the millennium is BEFORE Jesus returns.
    This means they take John 5:29 to happen at the moment Jesus returns.
    You are agreeing with them, so that makes YOU more AMil than me.

    My point which you seem to have lost is that there are TWO resurrections. Let me explain them:
    1) First Resurrection - this is specified in Rev 20:4 & 6. This is ONLY a resurrection for those who are in Jesus.
    Paul also specifies it here:
    1Co 15:23* But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.*
    1Th 4:16* For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    So this resurrection is one that happens AT His Coming. It is a resurrection ONLY for those who belong to Christ, are in Christ, believe in Christ - take your pick as to how you like it described. This is NOT a resurrection with ANY Judgement for eternal life.
    If the resurrection therefore mentions Judgement based upon whether we do good or evil, or are just or unjust etc THEN it is NOT referring to this resurrection.

    John 5 speaks of BOTH resurrections.
    Joh 5:24* Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

    Here it is stated unequivocally that these do NOT come into Judgement. They HAVE eternal life. So these people take part in the First Resurrection.

    2) The Final Resurrection - this is specified in Rev 20:12. This is a resurrection NOT for those IN Christ, but for everyone else.
    So IF you are NOT In Christ then you do NOT take part in the First Resurrection but this second one.
    This is a resurrection unto Judgement.
    Now your issue with John 5:29 is that you assume TWO resurrections in one verse. It isn't. It is clearly ONE resurrection.
    Joh 5:28* Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice*and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

    The word ALL literally means all. It does NOT mean SOME. I have had this argument with others, and ALL simply means ALL.
    Now those who are in Christ have ALREADY been resurrected and are NOT in the tombs. They were raised 1,000 years earlier. Their tomb is empty - like Jesus'.
    Therefore they are NOT included due to NOT being in the criteria of being in the tomb.

    Now your confusion seems to stem from the idea that it says resurrection of life and resurrection of judgement.
    However this simply speaks of the outcome form the resurrection. Some of these people will be given eternal life and others death.

    I quoted Dan 12 earlier:
    Dan 12:2* And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Notice that they are awakened, but some receive everlasting life and others everlasting contempt.
    This is because they are Judged according to their works:
    Rom 2:6* He will render to each one according to his works:*
    Rom 2:7* to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;*
    Rom 2:8* but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

    One Judgement, some to life and others to wrath.

  7. #37
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post

    Those who have physically died have already been given a white robe and do not come into judgment.


    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
    I don't disagree, yet this misses the point I was trying to make. If John:5:25 equals the first resurrection, we have to keep in mind that the first resurrection is not being applied to the souls John sees until after they have physically died first. John:5:25 is only applicable to someone still physically alive though. What your interpretation is basically suggesting is this. After the souls John sees have physically died(not meaning their souls physically died, though it might sound like I'm saying that, yet I'm not) , they then, after that, hear the voice of the Son of God: and they live....thus the first resurrection. Obviously you have it backwards. The correct order would be...The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live...followed by their physical deaths, followed by their physical resurrection, the first resurrection.

  8. #38
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    One thing about me in particular, I fully agree that oftentimes there are gaps between certain events in various passages, and that it is not always obvious every single time. But the gaps have to at least make sense and agree with other Scriptures. I see no reason for there to be a gap between the 2nd coming and when the saints in the OT rise. Or at least I don't see the reasons you submitted being good reasons in this case. Maybe I'll change my mind later, who knows, but as of now, I'm just not seeing it.
    The very simple question is HOW is the decision made as to whether someone receives eternal life or not?
    Scripture clearly states it happens at Judgement.
    Now if you have a mechanism whereby AI&J are missing from that Judgement, then I am interested to know what it is.
    Yet the very passage speaks of Judgement which means it is speaking of Rev 20:12. There is NO gap, because the other people are also resurrected for the SAME Judgement. they are NOT resurrected earlier.
    The ONLY people resurrected earlier, according to any scripture is those who are IN Christ. If you can find a single scripture to show me wrong, please do, but I couldn;t find one.
    Therefore the ONLY way, as far as scripture logically requires, for an OT saint to be resurrected BEFORE the Last Day (which is Judgement Day according to the Jews), is for them to be found IN Christ.

  9. #39
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I don't disagree, yet this misses the point I was trying to make. If John:5:25 equals the first resurrection, we have to keep in mind that the first resurrection is not being applied to the souls John sees until after they have physically died first. John:5:25 is only applicable to someone still physically alive though. What your interpretation is basically suggesting is this. After the souls John sees have physically died(not meaning their souls physically died, though it might sound like I'm saying that, yet I'm not) , they then, after that, hear the voice of the Son of God: and they live....thus the first resurrection. Obviously you have it backwards. The correct order would be...The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live...followed by their physical deaths, followed by their physical resurrection, the first resurrection.
    Thanks divaD.
    I think - not coming into judgment and being hurt by the second death is now a reality for those who are dead or alive in Christ. A physical resurrection is therefore not in view here.


    6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years


    That's a moot point if it means a physical resurrection , as those under the alter awaiting resurrection already have their white robes.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So you don't receive immortality when you are resurrected?

    Where did they go after being resurrected? Where are they now?

    I think the verse is specific to Christ in relation that he came down from heaven.
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    So the thief on the cross is not in heaven?

    iam at lost for words.....
    [/B]
    1/ Lazarus was resurrected. He died again and as Martha says; on the Last Day, he will receive immortality. At the GWT Judgement. Rev 20:11-15

    2/ they all lie in the grave, awaiting the GWT and the opening of the Book of Life. From the moment of their death to their standing before God, will seem like just an instant.

    3/ John 3:13 is a plain statement of fact. It says no man goes to heaven.....Trying to make it otherwise, is serious error.

    4/ The thief cannot be in heaven, Jesus did not go there for several weeks after His death. Acts 1:11 That man repented and was saved and just like every one else, he awaits the GWT, which will seem to him to be the next moment after he died on his cross.

    5/ Understanding the truth of what happens after death, Eccl 9:5-6, should help in finding your words again.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    They were not glorified at that time.
    Don't you get a glorified body upon resurrection?

    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    They were raised in glory (gloried bodies) upon being resurrected.



    Jesus said he was going to the Father and that we wouldn't follow him there immediately, but much later when he comes again a second time to receive us.
    Where does it says this?

  12. #42
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    1/ Lazarus was resurrected. He died again and as Martha says; on the Last Day, he will receive immortality. At the GWT Judgement. Rev 20:11-15
    Lazarus was special case per a miracle. Yes since he lived again and then died after Christ's ascension he will be raised at the GWT.

    4/ The thief cannot be in heaven,
    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Where is the "holy" city.?

    5/ Understanding the truth of what happens after death, Eccl 9:5-6, should help in finding your words again.
    ??

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    Where does it says this?

    Jn 14
    2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

    jn 13
    Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.

    36 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.



    Those saints raised at his death could not follow him there as he had not ascended at that point. He needs to come again.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  14. #44

    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


    Looks like it occurred already.
    there are two resurrections, revelation 20.

    and just a thought

    “Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
    **John‬ *11:23-26‬ *KJV‬‬


    i think those seen in Zion with the lamb, earlier in revelation, all from the 12 tribes of Israel, are probably the ot saints. And possibly those mentioned there in the scriptures you shared.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Jn 14

    36 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.
    Peter died after Christ rose and thus subject to the resurrection of the last day..

    Those saints raised at his death could not follow him there as he had not ascended at that point.
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

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