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Thread: When will the OT saints arise?

  1. #46
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    just a thought

    “Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
    **John‬ *11:23-26‬ *KJV‬‬
    Martha understood about the resurrection to happen later but lacked faith that Christ could do it whenever...

  2. #47
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Peter died after Christ rose and thus subject to the resurrection of the last day..



    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
    Hi Ross
    I edited the post you quoted. This may help you understand my point a little better.
    God bless.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  3. #48
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't know what the consensus is, but I'm sure there's no clarity on when the OT saints will resurrect.


    1. In case I missed it, does anyone know any scripture that gives the timeline?
    2. Will the OT saints participate in the Millennium or will they rise when it is over?
    The Old Testament Saints will be raised at the same time as the New Testament saints. I would like to present 7 reasons why.

    1. The writer of Hebrews tells us that the Old and New Testament saints will not be "Perfected apart from each other".

    At the end Hebrews 11, the writer is exhorting the church to endure in faith by showing the examples of the Old testament saints who endured suffering that they may "obtain to a better resurrection". The writer of Hebrews then tells us that Old Testament saints did not receive the promise yet because God did not want them to be "perfected apart from us". Thus the perfection of the church and the receiving of the promises at the 2nd coming cannot be fulfilled without the Old Testament saints together with them.


    Heb 11:35 Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. ... 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.



    2. The Old and New Testament saints are to be raised at the "Last Day" when Jesus stands on the physical earth.

    Job said that he would be raised from the dead on the "LAST DAY" when Jesus is "STANDING ON THE EARTH". This is obviously the post tribulational coming of Christ as this is the only time Jesus will again "stand on the earth" (Zec 14).


    Job 19:25 For I myself know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand up on the last day on the dust of the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall certainly see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, but not as a stranger. How my heart yearns within me!


    Thus we see that the Old Testament Saints are raised at this time.


    However, Jesus said that "whoever believes in me" would also be "raised on the LAST DAY".

    The phrase "whoever believes in me" encompasses all believers who believe in Him until the end of the age. This is the church!


    John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."


    Therefore, since Job said the "Last Day" only begins when Jesus "stands on the earth" (post tribulational), then the Church cannot raise before this day nor can the OT saints raise after the church does. The church must be raised together with the Old Testament saints.


    3. The "restoration" of the creation is linked to both the resurrection of the saints in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

    In Acts chapter 3, Peter gave his famous sermon at Solomon's porch, speaking to an all Jewish audience and pleading with them to repent and that God would "Send Jesus" again whom "Heaven is holding onto until the TIMES OF THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS". Peter ties the idea that the 2nd coming of Jesus is the starting point for God to restore the earth. Peter then tells us that this "restoration" was prophesied "by all the holy prophets since the world began".


    Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 "whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.


    Nearly all the prophets from Isaiah, Ezekiel, Amos, and others spoke of a time when the earth would return the earth to its eden like state and the curse upon the ground would be lifted. The barren deserts would spring forth rivers, the mountains and hills would drip with wine, the Dead sea would be healed, the produce of the earth would put forth its strength, etc.


    The Old Testament tells us that God will restore the physical earth at the resurrection of the dead when Israel is "brought back into their land".


    Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. ... 33 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 "The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 "So they will say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.' 36 "Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it


    The prophets then tell us that Israel is only brought back into their land to inherit it eternally at the resurrection of the dead


    Eze 37:12 ...Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land.


    The New Testament also confirms that the curse will be lifted at the 2nd coming when the "bondage of corruption" is removed when the sons of God receive their new bodies.


    Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.


    This means that the restoration of the earth is linked in its timing to BOTH the resurrection of the Old Testament saints and New Testament saints together.


    4. The Inheritance promised to Abraham is given to both Old and New Testament saints upon the resurrection of the dead.


    Abraham, Issac and Jacob were promised the "inheritance of the land" yet they "never received one foot" (Acts 7:5) of that land while they lived. Therefore, it must be that they shall receive their eternal "inheritance" upon the resurrection of the dead. This is why Ezekiel said that the inheritance of the land will happen when the saints "come out of their graves and I will bring you INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL" (Eze 37:12). It is why Daniel is promised to "stand in his allotted possession" (Dan 12:13) at his resurrection. It is why Jesus and the Psalmist said that the "meek shall inherit the earth" only "when the wicked are cut off" (post 2nd coming) (Psa 37:9-10). It is why at the resurrection "many will come from east and westand sit down with Abrahamin the kingdom" (Matt 8:11).

    Eze 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' " ... 25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

    Throughout the scriptures, the term "the inheritance" that was promised to Abraham is defined as a "a portion of land to be received as a everlasting possession". This definition of "inheritance" did not magically change in the new testament and thereby voiding the original promises to the patriarchs.



    Galatians 3:29 tells us that the very promise of the land inheritance that was given to Abraham, Issac and Jacob will also be given to those "In Christ". Thus the New Testament Saints will recieve the SAME PROMISE given to the Old Testament patriarchs.


    Paul reaffirms this by saying that "the blessing of Abraham" had come upon the Gentiles. The term "blessing of Abraham" is used only one other time in the scriptures and it refers to the acquiring of the eternal Land inheritance.


    Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus

    Genesis 28:4 And give you the blessing of Abraham, To you and your descendants with you, That you may inherit the land In which you are a stranger, Which God gave to Abraham


    Since we know that the Old Testament Saints will receive their inheritance upon the resurrection of the dead, we should also note that the New testament tells us that the Church will ALSO receive their inheritance at the resurrection of the dead.


    Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


    The receiving of the gospel and the sealing of the Holy spirit is a "guarantee" that we will have a "inheritance" which we receive at the "REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION". Eph 4:30 tells us this this redemption happens at the 2nd coming.


    Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


    Therefore, we can conclude that both New and Old Testament Saints will receive their eternal inheritance at the same time since BOTH groups receive their eternal land inheritance at the 2nd coming upon their resurrection.




    5. Paul connected the rapture of the church to fulfilled prophecy of Israel's saints

    In the famous rapture passage of 1 Cor 15, Paul gave the timing indicator that this event (rapture and resurrection of the church) would happen at the SAME TIME when two Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled, namely Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14.


    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isa 25:8)55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (Hos 13:14)


    In Isaiah 25-26 restoration of Jerusalem, the destruction of Babylon, the great supper on the mountains of Israel. In that day the inhabitants will sing a song. This song is about the fulfillment of the Abrahamic land covenant and then the resurrection of the dead. Isaiah (an old testament saints) includes himself as part of this this resurrection. Therefore, Paul tied the resurrection of the church with the fulfillment of the resurrection of the old testament saints. Thus they must be resurrected together.



    6. The Last Trumpet is the same as the 7th Trumpet when both Old and New Testament Saints are raised and rewarded.


    Rapture/Resurrection at the 7th Trumpet


    Paul stated that the rapture would be immediately preceded by the resurrection of the dead and that it would transpire at the "last trumpet".


    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    I believe this "last trumpet" is the "7th trumpet" when God "rewards the servant the prophets". John said that Jesus will reward at His coming


    Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

    And to Israel he says

    Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.


    This means that both the Old testament saints and the New Testament saints are being rewarded AT THE SAME TIME at His coming. This logically requires that both are raised at the same time.



    7. David said he would be raised with the saints and rule for a season BEFORE Hades is destroyed in the LOF

    Psa 49:14-15 As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd;And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation. (15) But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

    The resurrection prophesied of David in verse 15 is connected to the rule of the saints over the wicked who are appointed to Sheol (Greek- Hades) in verse 14. Since Hades is cast into the Lake of fire at the end of the millennium this requires that there is a resurrection of the righteous and a period of ruling prior to the end of the millennium in order for them to rule while the wicked are still in Hades. This would require the OT saints, (which David included himself in) to be raised at the same time the church is raised at the start of the millennium together for them to have a season of rulership BEFORE hades is destroyed.

  4. #49
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    The Old Testament Saints will be raised at the same time as the New Testament saints. I would like to present 7 reasons why.

    1. The writer of Hebrews tells us that the Old and New Testament saints will not be "Perfected apart from each other".

    At the end Hebrews 11, the writer is exhorting the church to endure in faith by showing the examples of the Old testament saints who endured suffering that they may "obtain to a better resurrection". The writer of Hebrews then tells us that Old Testament saints did not receive the promise yet because God did not want them to be "perfected apart from us". Thus the perfection of the church and the receiving of the promises at the 2nd coming cannot be fulfilled without the Old Testament saints together with them.
    [B]

    Heb 11:35 Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. ... 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
    And this means in a general time frame, at the END. The First Resurrection is the Rapture of the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain who are also bought by his blood, 1 Cor. 15 is very clear on this, then when the Bride (formerly the Church) returns with Christ those who died during the Tribulation period will be raised and we shall Judge them in the Rev. 20:4 judgment seat. This is all the FIRST RESURRECTION. The resurrection of those under the blood of Christ. The SECOND RESURRECTION comes 1000 years later. So they are raised at the end, like those in Christ who died during the Tribulation period, however, the Church and the dead in Christ s Raptured before this.

    2. The Old and New Testament saints are to be raised at the "Last Day" when Jesus stands on the physical earth.

    Job said that he would be raised from the dead on the "LAST DAY" when Jesus is "STANDING ON THE EARTH". This is obviously the post tribulational coming of Christ as this is the only time Jesus will again "stand on the earth" (Zec 14).


    Job 19:25 For I myself know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand up on the last day on the dust of the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall certainly see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, but not as a stranger. How my heart yearns within me!


    Thus we see that the Old Testament Saints are raised at this time.


    However, Jesus said that "whoever believes in me" would also be "raised on the LAST DAY".

    The phrase "whoever believes in me" encompasses all believers who believe in Him until the end of the age. This is the church!


    John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."


    Therefore, since Job said the "Last Day" only begins when Jesus "stands on the earth" (post tribulational), then the Church cannot raise before this day nor can the OT saints raise after the church does. The church must be raised together with the Old Testament saints.
    The Jews and some in Christ are raised when Jesus and the Bride RETURN.

    6. The Last Trumpet is the same as the 7th Trumpet when both Old and New Testament Saints are raised and rewarded.


    Rapture/Resurrection at the 7th Trumpet


    Paul stated that the rapture would be immediately preceded by the resurrection of the dead and that it would transpire at the "last trumpet".


    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    I believe this "last trumpet" is the "7th trumpet" when God "rewards the servant the prophets". John said that Jesus will reward at His coming


    Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

    And to Israel he says

    Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.


    This means that both the Old testament saints and the New Testament saints are being rewarded AT THE SAME TIME at His coming. This logically requires that both are raised at the same time.
    The Last Trump or call on earth is a euphemism used by Paul. It has nothing to do with Judgment Trumpets.

    Fall Feasts Jesus Fulfilled

    1. Passover (Jesus fulfilled this)
    2. Feast of Unleavened Bread (Jesus was without sin)
    3. Feast of First fruits (Jesus was he first-fruits of the dead)

    Summer Harvest
    4. Feast of Weeks or the Harvest (Pentecost, it is on the calendar all by itself, it is the 2000 year Church Age, when the TRUMPET SOUNDS that is Jesus calling us home or ending the Pentecost/Church Age.)

    Fall Feasts yet to be fulfilled
    5. Feast of Trumpets ( The Feast of Trumpets DID NOTHING but announce things, that the Harvest was OVER and that the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacles were nigh at hand.

    6. Feast of Atonement (Israel must ATONE/REPENT before the 70th week is finished).

    7. Feast of Tabernacle (Israel will TABERNACLE or DWELL with God for the 1000 year reign. But only those who REPENT !! So the LAST TRUMP only means that the Harvest or Church Age is ending)

  5. #50
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Agree with you up to here.

    This is where you go wrong. Who is just and who is unjust?
    WHERE and WHEN is that decided?
    It is decided AT the Judgement.
    So when is that Judgement?
    It is the Final Judgement.
    My point was that the reality of the Millennium creates a separation between the two ages, the Premillennial Age and the Millennial Age. There are the just and the unjust in both ages. At the end of the Premillennial Age the saints, OT and NT, will experience the "first resurrection." The wicked under Antichrist will be judged at Armageddon, many will die, and they will assume a place with the damned. This takes place at the end of the present age.

    At the end of the Millennial Age a similar thing happens. The saints of the Millennium will experience the 2nd resurrection. And the wicked of the Millennial Age will also be gathered and destroyed in war. And they will take their place among the damned.

    It is at the end of the Millennial Age that all the saints of all ages will assume their place in the New Creation. And the wicked of all ages will assume their place in the Lake of Fire, which obviously is designed to remove them from the New Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    People confuse the resurrection of those who are IN Jesus, with the general resurrection in which there are just and unjust people.

    This doesn't work as you say because the just and unjust were always to be resurrected TOGETHER for Judgement and some would receive everlasting life and others everlasting shame.
    It does seem that the just and the unjust are resurrected together in Dan 12, and perhaps in other places. I tend to think the 1st resurrection is only for the just, and that the unjust at that time are sentenced to Hades. At the 2nd resurrection, the just, once again, are raised to life, while the wicked from all ages are raised up to a resurrection of damnation, and are sentenced to an eternal death, symbolized by the lake of fire.

  6. #51
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My point was that the reality of the Millennium creates a separation between the two ages, the Premillennial Age and the Millennial Age. There are the just and the unjust in both ages. At the end of the Premillennial Age the saints, OT and NT, will experience the "first resurrection." The wicked under Antichrist will be judged at Armageddon, many will die, and they will assume a place with the damned. This takes place at the end of the present age.
    Mainly in agreement, however where are we told that the OT saints take part in this first resurrection? I can't find a single scripture which does.

    At the end of the Millennial Age a similar thing happens. The saints of the Millennium will experience the 2nd resurrection. And the wicked of the Millennial Age will also be gathered and destroyed in war. And they will take their place among the damned.
    It is at the end of the Millennial Age that all the saints of all ages will assume their place in the New Creation. And the wicked of all ages will assume their place in the Lake of Fire, which obviously is designed to remove them from the New Earth.
    Basically agree with you here.

    It does seem that the just and the unjust are resurrected together in Dan 12, and perhaps in other places. I tend to think the 1st resurrection is only for the just, and that the unjust at that time are sentenced to Hades. At the 2nd resurrection, the just, once again, are raised to life, while the wicked from all ages are raised up to a resurrection of damnation, and are sentenced to an eternal death, symbolized by the lake of fire.
    How is a person KNOWN to be just? It is ONLY through Judgement or by being born again. I don't know of any other scripture or mechanism by which the separation can occur.
    The unjust are not sentenced to hades. Everyone who is dead is already in hades, so you don't resurrect someone to simply send them back.
    We have two resurrections:
    1) No judgement and is for those who belong to Christ.
    2) Judgement and is for everyone else.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Mainly in agreement, however where are we told that the OT saints take part in this first resurrection? I can't find a single scripture which does.


    Basically agree with you here.


    How is a person KNOWN to be just? It is ONLY through Judgement or by being born again. I don't know of any other scripture or mechanism by which the separation can occur.
    The unjust are not sentenced to hades. Everyone who is dead is already in hades, so you don't resurrect someone to simply send them back.
    We have two resurrections:
    1) No judgement and is for those who belong to Christ.
    2) Judgement and is for everyone else.
    Yes, I'm defining "judgment" differently from how you do. I'm suggesting that judgment against the wicked is not, in the present age, a resurrection at all. Rather, it is human death, which removes them to a place in Hades where the damned reside. Final judgment for the wicked takes place at the end of the Millennium, when the New Creation results and a final place must be made where the wicked are separated from the New Earth.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    And this means in a general time frame, at the END. The First Resurrection is the Rapture of the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain who are also bought by his blood, 1 Cor. 15 is very clear on this, then when the Bride (formerly the Church) returns with Christ those who died during the Tribulation period will be raised and we shall Judge them in the Rev. 20:4 judgment seat. This is all the FIRST RESURRECTION. The resurrection of those under the blood of Christ. The SECOND RESURRECTION comes 1000 years later. So they are raised at the end, like those in Christ who died during the Tribulation period, however, the Church and the dead in Christ s Raptured before this.
    The judgment seat in not referring to a time period for so called "tribulation saints"

    Paul used the pronoun "WE" which grammatically includes himself along with all the saints in his day standing at the judgment seat. If this judgment is soley for "tribulation saints" then Paul and his fellow hearers would be "excluded" from the judgment seat.

    Rom_14:10* But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    2Co_5:10* For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


    I find your interpretation problematic as it simply reverses the purpose of the passage. Hebrews 11 makes it clear God did not give the eternal promises to the Old Testament saints until the "better resurrection (SINGULAR)" because God did not want them to be "made perfect" apart from us (NT saints). This demands that both groups are made perfect TOGETHER. Your interpretation simply reverses this and allows of the NT saints to be "perfected" APART from the Old testament saints. This runs contrary to the trust of chapter.

    The Jews and some in Christ are raised when Jesus and the Bride RETURN.
    How is this phrase by Jesus a reference to "SOME in Christ"

    Joh 6:39-40 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (40) And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Clearly Jesus is saying that "EVERYONE" who "believes in Him... will be raised up... on the Last Day". That logically must included EVERYONE that has come to Christ for the past 2,000 years. In no way, can that verse be limited to a select few so called "tribulation saints" after the rapture...

    Again, in this next verse Jesus is giving a exhortation to "the jews" at that time saying that they should partake of Him. Then "WHOEVER eats my flesh and drinks my blood, I will raise him up at the last day". This cannot be solely available to a few "tribulation saints" after the rapture as it would have no application or potential fulfillment to the exhortation Jesus is giving to the Jews at that time.

    Joh 6:52-54 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" (53) Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. (54) Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.


    Later in John 11, after Lazurus had died, Martha stated a known truth... "I know he will rise again I the resurrection at the last day". Think about it... Lazerus was a BELIEVER in Jesus and therefore was already "IN CHRIST". He had died and the theology of Jesus's followers was that he would arise "AT THE LAST DAY". This demands that they believed that the believers IN CHRIST (from their day forward) would be raised at the last day. It cannot only apply to a select few tribulation saints after the rapture.


    Joh 11:21-24 Now Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. (22) But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." (23) Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." (24) Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've always had trouble with this. Your perspective sounds reasonable, and may be the solution for me. Are you saying that the Kingdom Age is part of the execution of Christ's victory over the world? I know that at Christ's Coming, the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of Christ. But apparently in the Millennium there will still be victories to win, enemies to subdue, and ultimately death to destroy? Let me know if I understand you correctly?
    You raised pertinent questions. Jesus will finally subdue all that is an abomination and that resist God at the GWTJ. He will thereafter deliver the Kingdom to God the Father who will come down to dwell with us on earth at that time according to Paul below.

    1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My thought is that the current age, OT and NT, will expire at the coming of Christ, at which time Jesus gathers *all* the righteous, OT and NT.
    That's what common sense tells me, but I'm struggling to find supporting scriptures pointing to the resurrection of the OT saints at the inception of the millennium. It is basically the essence of this OP.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If I understand FHG properly, the Millennial Age is a thousand year process of destroying death, from the 1st resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium to the 2nd resurrection at the end of the Millennium. This requires the OT saints to be victorious over death at Christ's Coming, at the beginning of the Millennium. It then remains for the Millennial saints to be victorious over death at the end of the Millennium.
    By placing the resurrection of the OT saints at the time of Christ' Coming, you are arguing against FHG's position. He (FHG) believes that they will not participate in the MK as they only arise at the end of the 1000 years.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
    26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
    27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
    28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


    What is the timing of verse 25-27? Is it not the same timing as the following?

    Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    And if yes, where most agree, maybe except for Pretribbers, the time meant in Matthew 25:10-13 involves the 2nd coming. That would indicate Luke 13:28 is fulfilled when the 2nd coming is fulfilled. Can't sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, if none of these haven't risen as of the 2nd coming, right? Obviously then, OT saints rise at the 2nd coming as well. They would be included with the dead in Christ who rise first. After all, they would have to be in Christ if they are to be included in His everlasting kingdom once He returns. Or least you would think so.
    A very good argument indeed. So far, Luke 13:28 is the most relevant scripture attesting to the resurrection of the OT saints at Christ Coming.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    If the Queen of the south is an OT saint, then they rise at the judgment.
    At that time the heavens are no more- Job 14, and its the last day.

    Jn 6
    40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

    Jn 12
    47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.
    Sorry, the argument that the "last day" is the day of the GWTJ is incorrect. In John 6:39,40,44,54; Jesus repeated 5x that he will raise the faithful on the last day. It is however clear that the 'last day' is not a 24hr day given that the *just* will arise to participate in the millennium. Whereas your case puts the resurrection of the just on the day of the Throne Judgment which 1000 years after the Jesus returned.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The time now is for not coming into judgment. We have already passed from death to life and the second death is avoided.
    I would advise you to exercise caution with the claim above. For not EVERYONE that professes Christ is really his, so the general assumption that we have passed from death to life *now* is not true. That comes after the resurrection of the faithful - not while we are still in the flesh.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That's what common sense tells me, but I'm struggling to find supporting scriptures pointing to the resurrection of the OT saints at the inception of the millennium. It is basically the essence of this OP.
    That's because there is no scripture that says anyone, incl the OT Saints, are given immortality before the Great White Throne Judgement; after the Millennium.
    It is logical that Eternal life cannot be conferred until after all of God's 7000 year Plan for mankind is completed.

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