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Thread: When will the OT saints arise?

  1. #61
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    It's not a better fit. You know one reason why? Read Rev 20:4 again and notice who the first resurrection is being applied to. It is being applied to those that have already physically died, and that it is being applied to them, not before they physically die, but after they have physically died. Only a bodily resurrection makes sense of the text in that case.
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    I think you are onto something that many seem to miss, David. The emboldened subtext is clearly different from the rest who we can rightly assume to be the NT saints. I will dare to speculate that they may be the OT saints. But given the tendency of some to attack anything that doesn't fit into their purview, naturally many will disagree.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree there are TWO resurrections.
    However John 5:29 is NOT the resurrection of Life. John 5:29 is the resurrection FOR Judgement.
    John 5:24 & 25 is about the resurrection for life.
    John 5:24 & 25 is about Rev 20:4 & 6.
    John 5:29 is about Rev 20:12 which is ALSO the resurrection for Judgement.

    Notice what is stated in John 5:29:
    Joh 5:29* and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

    This is about judgement based upon the good or the evil you have done.

    This is in contrast to this:
    Joh 5:24* Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.*
    Joh 5:25* “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

    This is about hearing and responding in faith. They do NOT face the resurrection for judgement of good and evil, of works.
    Actually, John 5:29 is a recapitulation of verses 24-25. It also corroborates Dan 12:2 and it's a general statement since just and the wicked won't rise at the time. There is a thousand years between them.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Actually, John 5:29 is a recapitulation of verses 24-25. It also corroborates Dan 12:2 and it's a general statement since just and the wicked won't rise at the time. There is a thousand years between them.
    No, the Just and Unjust DO rise at the same time.
    Every scripture has them rising together.
    You confuse the Just, with those who BELONG to Christ.
    We are raised NOT because we are Just but because we are His.
    That is what 1 Cor 15 clearly states.

    John 5:28 and 29 is NOT a recapitulation as in 5:24 it is about people who BELIEVE in Jesus, but in verse 28 & 29 it is about people who have DONE good or DONE evil.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    I think you are onto something that many seem to miss, David. The emboldened subtext is clearly different from the rest who we can rightly assume to be the NT saints. I will dare to speculate that they may be the OT saints. But given the tendency of some to attack anything that doesn't fit into their purview, naturally many will disagree.
    Now that is an interesting idea, about it being OT saints.
    However I don't think it is.
    Here is a scripture I think answers that point:
    Dan 7:10* A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

    Dan 7:22* until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.*

    There seems to be a heavenly court, and they make judgement for the saints.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually what it requires is for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be resurrected.
    The Kingdom of God does start when Jesus returns, but it hasn't ended when the MK ends.
    If A, I & J are resurrected with Rev 20:12 then this also points to these people being resurrected at that time.
    Guess what, those who are resurrected for judgement are resurrected at that time therefore there is no requirement from your quote for the resurrection of AI&J to be earlier.
    Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
    Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


    From the above, it is easy to deduce that the OT saints will rise to participate in the millennium. Therefore, the assertion that they will rise after the 1000 years is incorrect. These are my reasons:

    1. The living/wicked (workers of iniquity) are thrust out, i.e barred from the millennium - NJ.
    2. The same people above will see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who are not only the Patriarchs but also representative of the OT saints, the prophets, etc IN THE MK which they are barred from.
    3. I am objective and have thought about this long and hard, and concluded it is impossible to place Luke 13:27-28 at the end of the millennium. It simply won't make sense!

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    The Old Testament Saints will be raised at the same time as the New Testament saints. I would like to present 7 reasons why.
    You have put a lot here, and I will attempt to respond to each thought on its own.

    1. The writer of Hebrews tells us that the Old and New Testament saints will not be "Perfected apart from each other".

    At the end Hebrews 11, the writer is exhorting the church to endure in faith by showing the examples of the Old testament saints who endured suffering that they may "obtain to a better resurrection". The writer of Hebrews then tells us that Old Testament saints did not receive the promise yet because God did not want them to be "perfected apart from us". Thus the perfection of the church and the receiving of the promises at the 2nd coming cannot be fulfilled without the Old Testament saints together with them.


    Heb 11:35 Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. ... 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

    Here the actual statement is slightly different to what you claim.
    It says they should not be perfected apart from us, which is NOT "we shall not be perfected apart from them."
    IOW it is perfectly possible for us to be perfected and then they will receive the same perfection afterwards.

    2. The Old and New Testament saints are to be raised at the "Last Day" when Jesus stands on the physical earth.

    Job said that he would be raised from the dead on the "LAST DAY" when Jesus is "STANDING ON THE EARTH". This is obviously the post tribulational coming of Christ as this is the only time Jesus will again "stand on the earth" (Zec 14).

    Job 19:25 For I myself know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand up on the last day on the dust of the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall certainly see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, but not as a stranger. How my heart yearns within me!

    Thus we see that the Old Testament Saints are raised at this time.

    However, Jesus said that "whoever believes in me" would also be "raised on the LAST DAY".
    The phrase "whoever believes in me" encompasses all believers who believe in Him until the end of the age. This is the church!

    John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Therefore, since Job said the "Last Day" only begins when Jesus "stands on the earth" (post tribulational), then the Church cannot raise before this day nor can the OT saints raise after the church does. The church must be raised together with the Old Testament saints.

    This is a view I have had to think long about. The problem is that the Last Day refers to the Final Judgement. It is NOT about the Last Day of this age when used by Jews. If you think that the Final Judgement occurs when Jesus returns THEN you can make there to be only ONE Last Day.
    You see there is a Last Day, which is when Jesus returns and those who are IN Christ are raised, just as John 6:40 states, and there is another Last Day which is truly the Last Day when the Final Judgement of Rev 20:12 occurs which is when the Millennium has ended.
    IF there are two last days then it means the claim has to be considered whihc camp the OT saints fall into - can it be said that they believe in Jesus?

    3. The "restoration" of the creation is linked to both the resurrection of the saints in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

    In Acts chapter 3, Peter gave his famous sermon at Solomon's porch, speaking to an all Jewish audience and pleading with them to repent and that God would "Send Jesus" again whom "Heaven is holding onto until the TIMES OF THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS". Peter ties the idea that the 2nd coming of Jesus is the starting point for God to restore the earth. Peter then tells us that this "restoration" was prophesied "by all the holy prophets since the world began".


    Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 "whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

    Nearly all the prophets from Isaiah, Ezekiel, Amos, and others spoke of a time when the earth would return the earth to its eden like state and the curse upon the ground would be lifted. The barren deserts would spring forth rivers, the mountains and hills would drip with wine, the Dead sea would be healed, the produce of the earth would put forth its strength, etc.

    The Old Testament tells us that God will restore the physical earth at the resurrection of the dead when Israel is "brought back into their land".


    Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. ... 33 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 "The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 "So they will say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.' 36 "Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it

    The prophets then tell us that Israel is only brought back into their land to inherit it eternally at the resurrection of the dead


    Eze 37:12 ...Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land.

    The New Testament also confirms that the curse will be lifted at the 2nd coming when the "bondage of corruption" is removed when the sons of God receive their new bodies.


    Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

    [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]This means that the restoration of the earth is linked in its timing to BOTH the resurrection of the Old Testament saints and New Testament saints together.
    The MK is the period of restoration. It lasts 1,000 years. However there is no requirement for the resurrection of the OT saints BEFORE this restoration has happened. In Fact it looks like the restoration occurs FIRST and THEN they are resurrected. This points to a later resurrection.
    Ezekiel 36 ONLY speaks of the living and NOT the dead.
    So there will be Jews living in Israel during the Millennium, but these are NOT resurrected souls.
    Isiah 65 points to these Jews having babies and growing old, which militates against the idea of them having been resurrected.

    4. The Inheritance promised to Abraham is given to both Old and New Testament saints upon the resurrection of the dead.

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    Abraham, Issac and Jacob were promised the "inheritance of the land" yet they "never received one foot" (Acts 7:5) of that land while they lived. Therefore, it must be that they shall receive their eternal "inheritance" upon the resurrection of the dead. This is why Ezekiel said that the inheritance of the land will happen when the saints "come out of their graves and I will bring you INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL" (Eze 37:12). It is why Daniel is promised to "stand in his allotted possession" (Dan 12:13) at his resurrection. It is why Jesus and the Psalmist said that the "meek shall inherit the earth" only "when the wicked are cut off" (post 2nd coming) (Psa 37:9-10). It is why at the resurrection "many will come from east and westand sit down with Abrahamin the kingdom" (Matt 8:11).

    Eze 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' " ... 25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

    Throughout the scriptures, the term "the inheritance" that was promised to Abraham is defined as a "a portion of land to be received as a everlasting possession". This definition of "inheritance" did not magically change in the new testament and thereby voiding the original promises to the patriarchs.

    Galatians 3:29 tells us that the very promise of the land inheritance that was given to Abraham, Issac and Jacob will also be given to those "In Christ". Thus the New Testament Saints will recieve the SAME PROMISE given to the Old Testament patriarchs.

    Paul reaffirms this by saying that "the blessing of Abraham" had come upon the Gentiles. The term "blessing of Abraham" is used only one other time in the scriptures and it refers to the acquiring of the eternal Land inheritance.


    Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus

    Genesis 28:4 And give you the blessing of Abraham, To you and your descendants with you, That you may inherit the land In which you are a stranger, Which God gave to Abraham

    Since we know that the Old Testament Saints will receive their inheritance upon the resurrection of the dead, we should also note that the New testament tells us that the Church will ALSO receive their inheritance at the resurrection of the dead.


    Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

    The receiving of the gospel and the sealing of the Holy spirit is a "guarantee" that we will have a "inheritance" which we receive at the "REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION". Eph 4:30 tells us this this redemption happens at the 2nd coming.


    Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


    Therefore, we can conclude that both New and Old Testament Saints will receive their eternal inheritance at the same time since BOTH groups receive their eternal land inheritance at the 2nd coming upon their resurrection.

    All you have shown is that they will be placed in Israel when they are resurrected. However there is nothing which requires them to be resurrected at the same time. Unfortunately you relied on an earlier point to claim this.

    5. Paul connected the rapture of the church to fulfilled prophecy of Israel's saints

    In the famous rapture passage of 1 Cor 15, Paul gave the timing indicator that this event (rapture and resurrection of the church) would happen at the SAME TIME when two Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled, namely Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14.


    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isa 25:8)55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (Hos 13:14)

    In Isaiah 25-26 restoration of Jerusalem, the destruction of Babylon, the great supper on the mountains of Israel. In that day the inhabitants will sing a song. This song is about the fulfillment of the Abrahamic land covenant and then the resurrection of the dead. Isaiah (an old testament saints) includes himself as part of this this resurrection. Therefore, Paul tied the resurrection of the church with the fulfillment of the resurrection of the old testament saints. Thus they must be resurrected together.
    There will be the descendants of Abraham who will indeed being singing. Revelation makes mention of 144K.
    This doesn't mean al the OT saints though will be resurrected at the START of the MK.

    6. The Last Trumpet is the same as the 7th Trumpet when both Old and New Testament Saints are raised and rewarded.

    [/B][/B][/B][/B][/B]
    Rapture/Resurrection at the 7th Trumpet

    Paul stated that the rapture would be immediately preceded by the resurrection of the dead and that it would transpire at the "last trumpet".


    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    I believe this "last trumpet" is the "7th trumpet" when God "rewards the servant the prophets". John said that Jesus will reward at His coming


    Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

    And to Israel he says

    Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.

    This means that both the Old testament saints and the New Testament saints are being rewarded AT THE SAME TIME at His coming. This logically requires that both are raised at the same time.
    Firstly the 7th Trumpet isn't the Last Trumpet, but it also isn;t the rapture.
    The rapture is after the 7th vial.
    Regardless God does indeed bring His reward with Him.
    The rapture though is NOT a general resurrection of the dead, but ONLY the resurrection of the dead who belong to Christ. therefore it doesn't include the OT saints.

    7. David said he would be raised with the saints and rule for a season BEFORE Hades is destroyed in the LOF

    Psa 49:14-15 As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd;And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation. (15) But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

    [/B][/B][/B][/B][/B][/B]
    The resurrection prophesied of David in verse 15 is connected to the rule of the saints over the wicked who are appointed to Sheol (Greek- Hades) in verse 14. Since Hades is cast into the Lake of fire at the end of the millennium this requires that there is a resurrection of the righteous and a period of ruling prior to the end of the millennium in order for them to rule while the wicked are still in Hades. This would require the OT saints, (which David included himself in) to be raised at the same time the church is raised at the start of the millennium together for them to have a season of rulership BEFORE hades is destroyed.
    Sorry, but the quote doesn't say that David will rule over them. He notes that Sheol will consume all, but he will be resurrected unto God.
    There is a resurrection of those who are IN Christ, but from all seven points it seems your strongest is that the upright shall rule over them in the morning. This speaks of the people who are IN Sheol. So how would they be ruled over by David?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
    Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


    From the above, it is easy to deduce that the OT saints will rise to participate in the millennium. Therefore, the assertion that they will rise after the 1000 years is incorrect. These are my reasons:

    1. The living/wicked (workers of iniquity) are thrust out, i.e barred from the millennium - NJ.
    2. The same people above will see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who are not only the Patriarchs but also representative of the OT saints, the prophets, etc IN THE MK which they are barred from.
    3. Objectively, it is impossible to place Luke 13:27-28 at the end of the millennium. It simply won't make sense!
    1. Agreed
    2. Agreed that they will see them. What I don't get is why you claim they will see them in the MK. HOW will they see AI&J in the MK when the people you have doing the seeing are NOT resurrected.
    3. Objectively Luke 13:27-28 ONLY makes sense when the wicked are resurrected and are judged and see that God rewards AI&J while they are not.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Now that is an interesting idea, about it being OT saints.
    However I don't think it is.
    Here is a scripture I think answers that point:
    Dan 7:10* A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

    Dan 7:22* until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.*

    There seems to be a heavenly court, and they make judgement for the saints.

    I agree that the verses you supplied here are exactly what Revelation 20:4 is referring to. Since when would OT saints not also be saints of the Most High? The timing of Dan 7:22 is obviously the beginning of the thousand years. And the text says....and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom. Are not OT saints saints as well?

    What I have to wonder is how Amils make Dan 7:22 fit with Amil since the following are referring to the exact same events?

    Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    This is meaning after the beast has been cast into the LOF, and seems to be referring to when the time comes that the saints possess the kingdom, as per Dan 7:22.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    What I have to wonder is how Amils make Dan 7:22 fit with Amil since the following are referring to the exact same events?

    Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Are they the same events? Notice that those saints in rev 20:4 were beheaded are we then to believe that all of the saints of the most high in Dan 7 were beheaded. I think not. Thus a different time and different sent of believers.

    Those in Rev 20 were from a time that the mark was on the earth, those in Dan are to mean ALL saints.

    So if you take the 1000 years to be literal YOU have problem then..... As there is only a mention of these martyred in Rev 20:4 resurrected before the 1000 years.

    Do only the martyred take part in the first resurrection? Where are the mention of the other believers in Rev 20, those believers which did not die a martyrs dearth?

    I have given you the answer to this many times but have not listen thus your continued confusion on this matter.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    Are they the same events? Notice that those saints in rev 20:4 were beheaded are we then to believe that all of the saints of the most high in Dan 7 were beheaded. I think not. Thus a different time and different sent of believers.

    Those in Rev 20 were from a time that the mark was on the earth, those in Dan are to mean ALL saints.

    So if you take the 1000 years to be literal YOU have problem then..... As there is only a mention of these martyred resurrected before the 1000 years. Where are the mention of the other in Rev 20, those believers which did not die a martyrs dearth?

    I have given you the answer to this many times.

    Both Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:6 are clearly referring to the first resurrection. Most don't even dispute that, though there could be some that do. Assuming one doesn't dispute that, let's consider Rev 20:6.

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The text says...Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Would OT saints be blessed and holy or not?

    The text also says...on such the second death hath no power. Does the 2nd death have no power over OT saints or not?

    If the answer to both these questions are yes, how can the first resurrection exclude OT saints?

    Let me make my point like this as well.

    Those that are cast into the LOF, are they blessed and holy? Those that are cast into the LOF, does the 2nd death have no power over them? If the answer is no to both questions, well the OT saints have to fit into one of these two groups then. So which group would they fit in? The group in the first resurrection who are blessed and holy, and that the 2nd death has no power over them? Or do they fit into the 2nd group who are cast into the LOF, the group that is not blessed and holy, the group that the 2nd death does have power over? Let's not lose site of the fact that Rev 20 only has two resurrections in view, meaning two types, one for the blessed and holy, the other for the exact opposite..

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The text says...Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Would OT saints be blessed and holy or not?
    I think you aren't getting what it says.
    You seem to be interpreting it as "the blessed and holy take part..."
    What it actually says is "those who take part are blessed and are holy."

    The text also says...on such the second death hath no power. Does the 2nd death have no power over OT saints or not?
    Again it is speaking of those who take part. It is not saying NO ONE else will be free from the 2nd Death.
    The CONTEXT is the START of the Millennium when there will be people over whom the second death can have power.

    If the answer to both these questions are yes, how can the first resurrection exclude OT saints?
    So far no reason to include OT saints.

    Those that are cast into the LOF, are they blessed and holy? Those that are cast into the LOF, does the 2nd death have no power over them? If the answer is no to both questions, well the OT saints have to fit into one of these two groups then. So which group would they fit in? The group in the first resurrection who are blessed and holy, and that the 2nd death has no power over them? Or do they fit into the 2nd group who are cast into the LOF, the group that is not blessed and holy, the group that the 2nd death does have power over? Let's not lose site of the fact that Rev 20 only has two resurrections in view, meaning two types, one for the blessed and holy, the other for the exact opposite..
    Those who are of the second resurrection IF granted eternal life will be the SAME as those who took part in the first resurrection having received eternal life.

    Rev 20 does have TWO resurrections, but it is NOT split as you state.
    The first resurrection is a resurrection of those who are IN Christ, who belong to Him, who believe in Him.
    The second resurrection is of everybody else who does NOT take part in the first resurrection - this means those who are called just and those who are unjust, good and evil, righteous and wicked. They are resurrected and judged and it is determined AT the Judgement whether they ARE Just or Unjust. Following the Judgement they are sentenced, either to receive life or death.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I agree that the verses you supplied here are exactly what Revelation 20:4 is referring to. Since when would OT saints not also be saints of the Most High? The timing of Dan 7:22 is obviously the beginning of the thousand years. And the text says....and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom. Are not OT saints saints as well?
    The key is that this seems to speak of Matt 25 - when the Son of man comes in glory... It is related to Rev 20:4 but it is NOT speaking of resurrection.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If the answer to both these questions are yes, how can the first resurrection exclude OT saints?
    Concerning the OT saints I see them raised here.....They are not part of the first resurrection.

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Note the resurrection is called FIRST not to say that they has been no other resurrections prior but it is "first" AFTER the 2nd coming. (surprised many are confused by the mention of the word "first")



    Both Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:6 are clearly referring to the first resurrection. Most don't even dispute that, though there could be some that do. Assuming one doesn't dispute that, let's consider Rev 20:6.
    I do dispute that. Again 20:4 speaks of only certain group.

    Where do you see those in rev 20:4 who are not martyrs?
    Who is the group which lives and reigns and who is the group which are priests and reign? Or are they the same group?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    To all on this thread concerning the first resurrection...


    Note the resurrection is called FIRST not to say that they has been no other resurrections prior but it is "first" AFTER the 2nd coming.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    To all on this thread concerning the first resurrection...
    Note the resurrection is called FIRST not to say that they has been no other resurrections prior but it is "first" AFTER the 2nd coming.
    Though I agree with you that the CONTEXT clarifies.
    You are wrong to claim that those raised form the dead in Matt 26 were also resurrected and translated to heaven.
    There were others who also were raised from the dead, but they all eventually die.

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