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Thread: When will the OT saints arise?

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    When will the OT saints arise?

    I don't know what the consensus is, but I'm sure there's no clarity on when the OT saints will resurrect.


    1. In case I missed it, does anyone know any scripture that gives the timeline?
    2. Will the OT saints participate in the Millennium or will they rise when it is over?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't know what the consensus is, but I'm sure there's no clarity on when the OT saints will resurrect.


    1. In case I missed it, does anyone know any scripture that gives the timeline?
    2. Will the OT saints participate in the Millennium or will they rise when it is over?
    The only OT references I found are:
    Job 14:12* so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

    Dan 12:2* And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    In the NH we have nothing beyond the general resurrection of the dead for judgement and the specific for those who are IN Jesus.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The only OT references I found are:
    Job 14:12* so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

    Dan 12:2* And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    In the NH we have nothing beyond the general resurrection of the dead for judgement and the specific for those who are IN Jesus.
    You raised the pertinent question that prompted this OP. And true to what you said in another post, there's no scripture that pointedly tells when (as in timescale) they will arise. Unfortunately, neither Job 14:12 or Dan 12:2 as quoted tell us whether the OT saints will rise to partake in the millennium or wait until the GWTJ.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You raised the pertinent question that prompted this OP. And true to what you said in another post, there's no scripture that pointedly tells when (as in timescale) they will arise. Unfortunately, neither Job 14:12 or Dan 12:2 as quoted tell us whether the OT saints will rise to partake in the millennium or wait until the GWTJ.
    This is because the OT makes no mention of the Millennium.
    This is why some claim Isaiah 65 & 66 is about the Millennium.

    However when we read the NT we also have this:
    Joh 11:23* Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”*
    Joh 11:24* Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

    This is the clearest statement as to the understanding when people who have died will rise again.
    It is on the Last Day.

    So the question is when is that Last Day?
    My understanding is that it is the Final Day of Judgement.

    Now I have wrestled with this because we have these verses:
    Joh 6:39* And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.*
    Joh 6:40* For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    This puts the last day here as the day when Jesus returns. So the question then is whether Jesus is using the phrase in the same way as Martha or if He has a Day whihc is for those who believe in Him who are raised.

    Paul seemed to put it this way:
    1Co 15:23* But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.*
    1Co 15:24* Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.*
    1Co 15:25* For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.*
    1Co 15:26* The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    Notice the order:
    Christ
    at His coming those who belong to Christ
    Then the end (which seems to last 1,000 years) when the rest are resurrected.

    this then would match Revelation 20
    Christ
    The first resurrection
    The MK followed by the second resurrection

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't know what the consensus is, but I'm sure there's no clarity on when the OT saints will resurrect.


    1. In case I missed it, does anyone know any scripture that gives the timeline?
    2. Will the OT saints participate in the Millennium or will they rise when it is over?
    There is very little on the resurrection and its timing in the OT, but it is there. It seems to be an assumption, because God is regularly reaching out to Israel to make a way past the angels that guard the way to the tree of life.

    So there is this idea of history progressing towards a time when Israel will be liberated from the oppression that separates God from His people. He will be "with them." Thus, the idea of an Age to Come, and a future Kingdom, evolves in the thinking of the Prophets. Perhaps this idea was there from the beginning?

    Isaiah mentions that death will be overcome. And Daniel specifies an event at which both the righteous and the unrighteous are raised from the dead to be judged. Although this event may appear to take place simultaneously, I'm not sure this is so. It is an event that simply transcends the current age. It is simply stated that Israel, both good and bad, will be judged for how they behaved in the current age. This will take place *after* the current age, when the current age ends.

    When Jesus, still under the Law of Moses, speaks of the resurrection, he retains this idea that the resurrection event is future and beyond the present age. It is on the "last day." And so, the resurrection of the righteous is made to be synonymous with the coming of Christ itself. But I'm not sure that Christ said the resurrection of the unrighteous is synonymous with this event--only that death is defeated on behalf of the righteous on this day.

    So it is largely dependent on Rev 20 that we get the Millennial separation between the resurrection of the just and the unjust. The righteous alone are raised from the dead at Christ's coming, at the beginning of the Millennium. And the unjust, together with the righteous of the Millennial age, will be raised in a "2nd resurrection" at the end of the Millennium.

    This is a natural evolution, because it may have appeared much simpler when the Scriptures were only dealing with the just and the unjust in Israel. But the People of God came to encompass not just Israel, but also the nations of the world. And so, the Millennium became an extension of issues beyond Israel's Diasora in the current age. The Millennium would bring about a resolution to both Israel and the nations, and mortal life would continue in the Millennial age.

    This therefore implies that judgment extends beyond the last day of the current age to incorporate mankind in the Millennial age. It requires that judgment incorporate a "2nd resurrection" at the end of the Millennial age, to reward the righteous of that age, and to punish the unrighteous who live during that time.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is very little on the resurrection and its timing in the OT, but it is there. It seems to be an assumption, because God is regularly reaching out to Israel to make a way past the angels that guard the way to the tree of life.

    So there is this idea of history progressing towards a time when Israel will be liberated from the oppression that separates God from His people. He will be "with them." Thus, the idea of an Age to Come, and a future Kingdom, evolves in the thinking of the Prophets. Perhaps this idea was there from the beginning?

    Isaiah mentions that death will be overcome. And Daniel specifies an event at which both the righteous and the unrighteous are raised from the dead to be judged. Although this event may appear to take place simultaneously, I'm not sure this is so. It is an event that simply transcends the current age. It is simply stated that Israel, both good and bad, will be judged for how they behaved in the current age. This will take place *after* the current age, when the current age ends.

    When Jesus, still under the Law of Moses, speaks of the resurrection, he retains this idea that the resurrection event is future and beyond the present age. It is on the "last day." And so, the resurrection of the righteous is made to be synonymous with the coming of Christ itself. But I'm not sure that Christ said the resurrection of the unrighteous is synonymous with this event--only that death is defeated on behalf of the righteous on this day.

    So it is largely dependent on Rev 20 that we get the Millennial separation between the resurrection of the just and the unjust. The righteous alone are raised from the dead at Christ's coming, at the beginning of the Millennium. And the unjust, together with the righteous of the Millennial age, will be raised in a "2nd resurrection" at the end of the Millennium.

    This is a natural evolution, because it may have appeared much simpler when the Scriptures were only dealing with the just and the unjust in Israel. But the People of God came to encompass not just Israel, but also the nations of the world. And so, the Millennium became an extension of issues beyond Israel's Diasora in the current age. The Millennium would bring about a resolution to both Israel and the nations, and mortal life would continue in the Millennial age.

    This therefore implies that judgment extends beyond the last day of the current age to incorporate mankind in the Millennial age. It requires that judgment incorporate a "2nd resurrection" at the end of the Millennial age, to reward the righteous of that age, and to punish the unrighteous who live during that time.
    I enjoyed your post but couldn't quite figure out whether you're arguing that the OT saints will wait till the end of the millenial age before they arise?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I enjoyed your post but couldn't quite figure out whether you're arguing that the OT saints will wait till the end of the millenial age before they arise?
    My thought is that the current age, OT and NT, will expire at the coming of Christ, at which time Jesus gathers *all* the righteous, OT and NT.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't know what the consensus is, but I'm sure there's no clarity on when the OT saints will resurrect.


    1. In case I missed it, does anyone know any scripture that gives the timeline?


    Matt 12
    The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.



    When the heavens pass away on the last day we will have Gods righteous judgment.


    Rev 20
    Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't know what the consensus is, but I'm sure there's no clarity on when the OT saints will resurrect.


    1. In case I missed it, does anyone know any scripture that gives the timeline?
    2. Will the OT saints participate in the Millennium or will they rise when it is over?
    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


    Looks like it occurred already.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This is because the OT makes no mention of the Millennium.
    This is why some claim Isaiah 65 & 66 is about the Millennium.

    However when we read the NT we also have this:
    Joh 11:23* Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”*
    Joh 11:24* Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

    This is the clearest statement as to the understanding when people who have died will rise again.
    It is on the Last Day.

    So the question is when is that Last Day?
    My understanding is that it is the Final Day of Judgement.

    Now I have wrestled with this because we have these verses:
    Joh 6:39* And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.*
    Joh 6:40* For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    This puts the last day here as the day when Jesus returns. So the question then is whether Jesus is using the phrase in the same way as Martha or if He has a Day whihc is for those who believe in Him who are raised.

    Paul seemed to put it this way:
    1Co 15:23* But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.*
    1Co 15:24* Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.*
    1Co 15:25* For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.*
    1Co 15:26* The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    Notice the order:
    Christ
    at His coming those who belong to Christ
    Then the end (which seems to last 1,000 years) when the rest are resurrected.

    this then would match Revelation 20
    Christ
    The first resurrection
    The MK followed by the second resurrection
    All the above refers to the church (the dead in Christ or those that are his). Only 1 Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.* which is not explicit can be said to hint at the timeline of the resurrection of the OT saints.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


    Looks like it occurred already.
    But the texts don't say they went to heaven. It says they went into the city and appeared unto many.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    But the texts don't say they went to heaven. It says they went into the city and appeared unto many.
    So did Jesus. Where did he go after? Where do you think these folks went after being resurrected?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Matt 12
    The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

    When the heavens pass away on the last day we will have Gods righteous judgment.

    Rev 20
    Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
    I'm not sure I follow your logic?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This is because the OT makes no mention of the Millennium.
    This is why some claim Isaiah 65 & 66 is about the Millennium.

    However when we read the NT we also have this:
    Joh 11:23* Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”*
    Joh 11:24* Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

    This is the clearest statement as to the understanding when people who have died will rise again.
    It is on the Last Day.

    So the question is when is that Last Day?
    My understanding is that it is the Final Day of Judgement.

    Now I have wrestled with this because we have these verses:
    Joh 6:39* And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.*
    Joh 6:40* For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    This puts the last day here as the day when Jesus returns. So the question then is whether Jesus is using the phrase in the same way as Martha or if He has a Day whihc is for those who believe in Him who are raised.

    Paul seemed to put it this way:
    1Co 15:23* But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.*
    1Co 15:24* Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.*
    1Co 15:25* For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.*
    1Co 15:26* The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    Notice the order:
    Christ
    at His coming those who belong to Christ
    Then the end (which seems to last 1,000 years) when the rest are resurrected.

    this then would match Revelation 20
    Christ
    The first resurrection
    The MK followed by the second resurrection
    I've always had trouble with this. Your perspective sounds reasonable, and may be the solution for me. Are you saying that the Kingdom Age is part of the execution of Christ's victory over the world? I know that at Christ's Coming, the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of Christ. But apparently in the Millennium there will still be victories to win, enemies to subdue, and ultimately death to destroy? Let me know if I understand you correctly?

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    All the above refers to the church (the dead in Christ or those that are his). Only 1 Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.* which is not explicit can be said to hint at the timeline of the resurrection of the OT saints.
    If I understand FHG properly, the Millennial Age is a thousand year process of destroying death, from the 1st resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium to the 2nd resurrection at the end of the Millennium. This requires the OT saints to be victorious over death at Christ's Coming, at the beginning of the Millennium. It then remains for the Millennial saints to be victorious over death at the end of the Millennium.

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