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Thread: When will the OT saints arise?

  1. #196
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You mean you don't know if you are saved?
    I am saved. I have had several experiences (visions and dreams) as proof.

    Indeed. I don't hold to OSAS, but you were the one arguing for an irrevocable promise...
    The question is by what means are we saved?
    Is it by works or is it by faith?
    Scripture clearly says it is by faith in Jesus.
    We are 100% saved by faith. The argument about 'work' (I believe you introduced 1 Cor 3), is about what we do to advance the Body of Christ

    So are you saying that Christians are saved by works?
    If you are not (and I hope you are not) then this means you have NOT presented a meaning for the passage.
    I have and I have shown you that it is about the works we do AFTER we believe in Jesus and is NOT for eternal life but reward.
    Now when you show anything other than that from scripture (which you have diligently researched) then please do present it.
    I can't believe how you've suddenly turned this into a discussion about how we are saved. I have NEVER argued that we are saved by works and have no idea how you manufactured it, to be honest. If you would please quote the post where I posited that "works" is the way to be saved, I will address it directly. Other than that, I won't respond to your query because it's nothing more than a deflection.

    You claimed that 2 Cor 5:10 and 1 Cor 3 speak of the same. I carefully used scripture to show how they teach different things. But since you never ever accept to be wrong, you fed me a distorted, disjointed and nebulous theory that force the two to be the same. While 1 Cor 3 speaks about the work we do after coming to faith and which leads to 'reward' or loss thereof; 2 Cor 5:10 speak about acts immorality committed IN body by a believer. Neither has anything to do with a eternal life. Either you're quoting someone else and not me or you're simply arguing with the man in the mirror.

    You were saying it was irrelevant to your quote from Philippians which YOU were saying is relevant to 1 Cor 3.
    Sigh...
    I don't get you sometimes, brother.

  2. #197
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    In a nutshell the answer to this is based on one premise:
    When is the judgement for eternal life?

    If Abraham has ALREADY been judged and already awarded eternal life THEN he will be resurrected to that life with us.
    However I find scripture speaks of only ONE resurrection for judgement, and that the judgement for eternal life is NOT UNTIL that resurrection.

    That resurrection is spoken of in Rev 20:
    Rev 20:12* And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.*
    Rev 20:13* And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

    Now if you believe there is another resurrection for judgement then please provide scripture.
    If you believe that there is no judgement then please explain this:
    Heb 9:27* And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,*

    Will the people who have died BEFORE Jesus came on earth face this judgement or not?
    I wonder why you ask for scripture since many have been given to you by The Beginner and Myself, which you rejected out of hand? Nevertheless, I will use just ONE passage to summarize my response to your post. Your problem is your false belief that for eternal life to be given to those outside the NT covenant, they MUST be judged before the GWTJ. I disagree with this position and I'm not alone.

    Let's take a closer look at the passage below.

    Rev 20:4 a And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: b and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    I used the coloured a-b to differentiate the TWO categories of people spoken about in the text. Now, it says that 'judgment' was given to the (a) group. According to you and I concur, to be saved means that Christians [the church] will not be judged on the throne and will receive eternal/immortality prior to the GWTJ. In line with this belief, it is safe to rule out the church as those in group 'a'. So who do you reckon they are?

    Safe to say that the (b) group given judgment i.e. eternal life/immortal are from the NT age - yet BOTH receive eternal life BEFORE the GWTJ?
    I do hope you won't give the childish argument that a-b are the same people?

  3. #198
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I wonder why you ask for scripture since many have been given to you by The Beginner and Myself, which you rejected out of hand? Nevertheless, I will use just ONE passage to summarize my response to your post. Your problem is your false belief that for eternal life to be given to those outside the NT covenant, they MUST be judged before the GWTJ. I disagree with this position and I'm not alone.
    About 1 billion catholics pray to Mary, and many of them might believe she ascedned to heaven also.
    Not being alone is irrelevant.
    What is more relevant is what the scriptures say in CONTEXT.
    I didn't reject a single scripture "out of hand". I gave reasoning for why each scripture does NOT support the claimed view.
    Now IF you or The Beginner then dealt with my reasoning as to why those scriptures weren't valid and showed my reasoning to be faulty THEN you could say why those scriptures do support your view. Until you do then my reasons as to why they aren't valid remain.

    Let's take a closer look at the passage below.
    Rev 20:4 a And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: b and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    I used the coloured a-b to differentiate the TWO categories of people spoken about in the text. Now, it says that 'judgment' was given to the (a) group. According to you and I concur, to be saved means that Christians [the church] will not be judged on the throne and will receive eternal/immortality prior to the GWTJ. In line with this belief, it is safe to rule out the church as those in group 'a'. So who do you reckon they are?

    Safe to say that the (b) group given judgment i.e. eternal life/immortal are from the NT age - yet BOTH receive eternal life BEFORE the GWTJ?
    I do hope you won't give the childish argument that a-b are the same people?
    Actually you have misunderstood the passage.
    However let's deal with your question and who the two groups are.
    b) This group is those who died BEFORE Jesus returned. They are the ones who were martyred DURING the GT (and possibly before). Therefore they are part of the Rapture of the Church. These are the ones who are specifically mentioned as being part of the First Resurrection. Notice this is the FIRST resurrection meaning there is no separate group resurrection BEFORE them.
    The next thing to notice is that they are NOT given judgement (to judge) and that they are NOT judged.

    So who is the other group?
    a) This group sit on thrones and they sit on them and judgement is given to them (for them to judge).
    Well who had thrones and were sitting on them?
    One possibility is it is speaking of the Elders.
    After all we are not told that group a) has been resurrected.

  4. #199
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am saved. I have had several experiences (visions and dreams) as proof.
    Great

    We are 100% saved by faith. The argument about 'work' (I believe you introduced 1 Cor 3), is about what we do to advance the Body of Christ
    I did in response to 2 Cor 5:10, which is about the same thing. Our lives and teachings that build up the body of Christ.

    I can't believe how you've suddenly turned this into a discussion about how we are saved. I have NEVER argued that we are saved by works and have no idea how you manufactured it, to be honest. If you would please quote the post where I posited that "works" is the way to be saved, I will address it directly. Other than that, I won't respond to your query because it's nothing more than a deflection.
    Judgement for eternal life is for those who are NOT saved.
    Therefore IF a passage speaks of judgement then IF it is about eternal life then it is NOT speaking about those who are saved.
    You raised a judgement about works and so I needed to clarify that this judgement about works is NOT about eternal life.
    In which case it is about reward.

    You claimed that 2 Cor 5:10 and 1 Cor 3 speak of the same. I carefully used scripture to show how they teach different things. But since you never ever accept to be wrong, you fed me a distorted, disjointed and nebulous theory that force the two to be the same. While 1 Cor 3 speaks about the work we do after coming to faith and which leads to 'reward' or loss thereof; 2 Cor 5:10 speak about acts immorality committed IN body by a believer. Neither has anything to do with a eternal life. Either you're quoting someone else and not me or you're simply arguing with the man in the mirror.
    2 Cor 5:10 does NOT speak about immorality (except in a general meaning). It is about the acts we do AFTER we are saved, JUST as 1 Cor 3 does.
    How you cannot see that BOTH are about people who are saved and that BOTH are about the life we live I don't know.
    The KEY though which you have just stated is that NEITHER 1 Cor 3 NOR 2 Cor 5 has anything to do with eternal life.
    It is a judgement for Believers and it is about the works we do AFTER we are saved, and is for reward.

    You raised 2 Cor 5 as IF it somehow is relevant to OT saints being raised and in relation to judgement.
    I simply gave you what it IS about and then you went off on a tangent.

  5. #200
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    About 1 billion catholics pray to Mary, and many of them might believe she ascedned to heaven also.
    Not being alone is irrelevant.
    What is more relevant is what the scriptures say in CONTEXT.
    I didn't reject a single scripture "out of hand". I gave reasoning for why each scripture does NOT support the claimed view.
    Now IF you or The Beginner then dealt with my reasoning as to why those scriptures weren't valid and showed my reasoning to be faulty THEN you could say why those scriptures do support your view. Until you do then my reasons as to why they aren't valid remain.
    I see no point in dragging an issue that will never be resolved. Unfortunately, "context" has so often been bandied out of shape. All sorts of junk theory are now cloaked as context since every errant theory is labelled as context. As far as this discussion is concerned, you are fixated with your views the same way I am. I have followed your reasons for rejecting the scriptures provided as invalid and found your "reasons" inadequate. I'm not looking to pursue it further because we could argue from now to next year's Christmas and still make no headway.

    Actually you have misunderstood the passage.
    However let's deal with your question and who the two groups are.
    b) This group is those who died BEFORE Jesus returned. They are the ones who were martyred DURING the GT (and possibly before). Therefore they are part of the Rapture of the Church. These are the ones who are specifically mentioned as being part of the First Resurrection. Notice this is the FIRST resurrection meaning there is no separate group resurrection BEFORE them.
    The next thing to notice is that they are NOT given judgement (to judge) and that they are NOT judged.

    So who is the other group?
    a) This group sit on thrones and they sit on them and judgement is given to them (for them to judge).
    Well who had thrones and were sitting on them?
    One possibility is it is speaking of the Elders.
    After all we are not told that group a) has been resurrected.
    So it is your learned opinion that group 'A' were not resurrected, is it?
    Can you provide scripture that supports the claim that the "Elders" will judge the wicked? My understanding is that it is the 'saints' (Jew/Gentile) that will judge and reign with Jesus.
    We may not have been explicitly told who is in group 'A', but everything points to them being the OT saints.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I did in response to 2 Cor 5:10, which is about the same thing. Our lives and teachings that build up the body of Christ.
    Judgement for eternal life is for those who are NOT saved.
    Therefore IF a passage speaks of judgement then IF it is about eternal life then it is NOT speaking about those who are saved.
    You raised a judgement about works and so I needed to clarify that this judgement about works is NOT about eternal life.
    In which case it is about reward.

    2 Cor 5:10 does NOT speak about immorality (except in a general meaning). It is about the acts we do AFTER we are saved, JUST as 1 Cor 3 does.
    How you cannot see that BOTH are about people who are saved and that BOTH are about the life we live I don't know.
    The KEY though which you have just stated is that NEITHER 1 Cor 3 NOR 2 Cor 5 has anything to do with eternal life.
    It is a judgement for Believers and it is about the works we do AFTER we are saved, and is for reward.

    You raised 2 Cor 5 as IF it somehow is relevant to OT saints being raised and in relation to judgement.
    I simply gave you what it IS about and then you went off on a tangent.
    On reflection, it looks like you are right and I've been awfully wrong.

    2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    My bad was assuming that the 'body' refers to the mortal flesh of the believer, but it seems Paul was actually talking about his body i.e. Body of Christ, the Church. So please accept my profound apologies

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    On reflection, it looks like you are right and I've been awfully wrong.

    2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    My bad was assuming that the 'body' refers to the mortal flesh of the believer, but it seems Paul was actually talking about his body i.e. Body of Christ, the Church.
    It's speaking about the body people have when they sin, not the body of Christ.

    These show the same concept:

    Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Barnes:

    The appropriate reward of the actions of this life. “done in his body.” Literally, “the things by or through (διὰ dia) the body.” Tyndale renders it: “the works of his body.” The idea is, that every man shall receive an appropriate reward for the actions of this life.

    Clarke:

    The things done in his body - That is, while he was in this lower state; for in this sense the term body is taken often in this epistle. We may observe also that the soul is the grand agent, the body is but its instrument. And it shall receive according to what it has done in the body.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I see no point in dragging an issue that will never be resolved. Unfortunately, "context" has so often been bandied out of shape. All sorts of junk theory are now cloaked as context since every errant theory is labelled as context. As far as this discussion is concerned, you are fixated with your views the same way I am. I have followed your reasons for rejecting the scriptures provided as invalid and found your "reasons" inadequate. I'm not looking to pursue it further because we could argue from now to next year's Christmas and still make no headway.
    If they are invalid please state why they are invalid, and what is wrong with the argument I presented. If you simply say it is wrong, but don't say why then neither I nor you can progress.

    So it is your learned opinion that group 'A' were not resurrected, is it?
    Can you provide scripture that supports the claim that the "Elders" will judge the wicked? My understanding is that it is the 'saints' (Jew/Gentile) that will judge and reign with Jesus.
    We may not have been explicitly told who is in group 'A', but everything points to them being the OT saints.
    The saints will indeed reign with Jesus.
    However where does it say those seated on the throne are resurrected?
    Rev 20:1* Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.*
    Rev 20:2* And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,*
    Rev 20:3* and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.*
    Rev 20:4* Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.*

    Notice John sees an angel who puts Satan in the pit.
    THEN he sees thrones and "them" seated who were given authority to judge.
    ALSO he sees those who were given the first resurrection.

    Now group b) as you previously put it is clearly the Church. They are stated as coming to life and reigning so it is at that point this happens.
    So EITHER group b) is seated on the thrones and are reigning, or else it is another group altogether.
    However the Church is NOT resurrected BEFORE the dead who are in Jesus. 1 Thess 4 makes it clear that we are resurrected as ONE Body together.

    Now I suggested the Elders because in Revelation we are shown them seated on thrones:
    Rev 4:4* Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.

    We also have another example of those who are seated for judgment BEFORE the Church is given the kingdom:
    Dan 7:9* “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.*
    Dan 7:10* A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.*
    Dan 7:11* “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.*
    Dan 7:12* As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    Notice this suggests a judgement on the living, which is a different judgement to that of the dead.

    Rev 14:7* And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

    This ties into the above verse.

  9. #204
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's speaking about the body people have when they sin, not the body of Christ.

    These show the same concept:

    Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Barnes:

    The appropriate reward of the actions of this life. “done in his body.” Literally, “the things by or through (διὰ dia) the body.” Tyndale renders it: “the works of his body.” The idea is, that every man shall receive an appropriate reward for the actions of this life.

    Clarke:

    The things done in his body - That is, while he was in this lower state; for in this sense the term body is taken often in this epistle. We may observe also that the soul is the grand agent, the body is but its instrument. And it shall receive according to what it has done in the body.
    I held your view and in fact, defended it like it was a matter of life and death for a long time. On the other hand, FHG argued that "in his body" refers to the Body of Christ, the Church. A possibility I had not hitherto considered. But once I caught on and explored it diligently, I got persuaded that the context couldn't be anything else, but our labour "works" as Christians in Christ' vineyard. It is not about acts of immorality or otherwise done in our body - that is a bad interpretation of the text.

    FYI, Barnes and Clarke are revered scholars, but like everyone else, they have been known to get it wrong every now and then.

    But in this instance, I think Barnes agrees with me:

    Barnes:

    The appropriate reward of the actions of this life. “done in his body.” Literally, “the things by or through (διὰ dia) the body.” Tyndale renders it: “the works of his body.” The idea is, that every man shall receive an appropriate reward for the actions of this life.


    You will be making the same bad judgment I made before by concluding that "in his body" denotes the body/life of the believer, rather than that of Christ - the church.

  10. #205
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The saints will indeed reign with Jesus.
    However where does it say those seated on the throne are resurrected?
    Rev 20:1* Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.*
    Rev 20:2* And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,*
    Rev 20:3* and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.*
    Rev 20:4* Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.*

    Notice John sees an angel who puts Satan in the pit.
    THEN he sees thrones and "them" seated who were given authority to judge.
    ALSO he sees those who were given the first resurrection.
    In your earlier post which I responded to, you speculated that those whom it was given to judge are the 24 Elders and I recall asking you for any scripture to support this claim? In the absence of scriptural support, I would say that the consensus puts the OT saints in the frame until such a time as you can substantiate the case for the 24 elders.

    Now group b) as you previously put it is clearly the Church. They are stated as coming to life and reigning so it is at that point this happens.
    So EITHER group b) is seated on the thrones and are reigning, or else it is another group altogether.
    However the Church is NOT resurrected BEFORE the dead who are in Jesus. 1 Thess 4 makes it clear that we are resurrected as ONE Body together.

    Now I suggested the Elders because in Revelation we are shown them seated on thrones:
    Rev 4:4* Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.

    We also have another example of those who are seated for judgment BEFORE the Church is given the kingdom:
    Dan 7:9* “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.*
    Dan 7:10* A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.*
    Dan 7:11* “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.*
    Dan 7:12* As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    Notice this suggests a judgement on the living, which is a different judgement to that of the dead.

    Rev 14:7* And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

    This ties into the above verse.
    I have duly studied Dan 7 in earnest, but I'm afraid you have not made the case that the 24 elders are giving to *judge* the living. The case certainly is not proved above either. Notice that Dan 7:10 "...and the Books were opened" indicate that this is the Throne Judgement which is not of the living as you presented, but of the resurrected wicked? I don't think you'll ever find support anywhere in the Bible that the Books are 'opened' more than once.

    For your position to be valid, v-10 has to be before the end of the MK, meaning another opening of the Book at the end Rev 20:12

    The narrative as always is not in chronology. Notice that Dan 7:11-12 speak of the aftermath of Armageddon when the AC is cast into the LoF? Whereas, the opening of the books in v-10 denote the GWTJ.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    But in this instance, I think Barnes agrees with me:
    No, he agrees with me and the other scholars. We are judged by the things we have done in each of our bodies whether before joining the body or Christ and after. How can someone be judged by actions done in the body of Christ if they were never a Christian?

    Context shows Paul is speaking about the human body:

    2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
    2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
    2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
    2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
    2Co 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
    2Co 5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
    2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
    2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
    2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Never does Paul speak of the body as the body of Christ here. It is always the human body, the one that will be swallowed up by the immortal body. We will be judged by what we did in the first body.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #207
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, he agrees with me and the other scholars. We are judged by the things we have done in each of our bodies whether before joining the body or Christ and after. How can someone be judged by actions done in the body of Christ if they were never a Christian?

    Context shows Paul is speaking about the human body:

    2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
    2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
    2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
    2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
    2Co 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
    2Co 5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
    2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
    2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
    2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Never does Paul speak of the body as the body of Christ here. It is always the human body, the one that will be swallowed up by the immortal body. We will be judged by what we did in the first body.
    The emboldened statement made by you highlights how much off the mark you are. In the passage under discussion (2 Cor 5:10) Paul was addressing the Church, so your belief that he was speaking to unbelievers shows you clearly misunderstood who Paul was speaking to.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The emboldened statement made by you highlights how much off the mark you are. In the passage under discussion (2 Cor 5:10) Paul was addressing the Church, so your belief that he was speaking to unbelievers shows you clearly misunderstood who Paul was speaking to.
    You didn't comment on the context showing Paul spoke of our human bodies not the symbolic body of Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    In your earlier post which I responded to, you speculated that those whom it was given to judge are the 24 Elders and I recall asking you for any scripture to support this claim? In the absence of scriptural support, I would say that the consensus puts the OT saints in the frame until such a time as you can substantiate the case for the 24 elders.
    The absence is in there being ZERO scriptures for the OT saints being put on these thrones.
    I am not claiming it MUST be the 24 Elders, I am simply highlighting that Revelation has the 24 Elders seated on thrones.
    Then they get off their thrones to worship God and then it seems they are back on the thrones to judge.

    I find NOTHING to support the OT saints as IF you have it as OT saints then the NT saints would be included TOO.
    The OT saints certainly do NOT get resurrected BEFORE the NT saints. Further there is ZERO mention of anyone who sits on the thrones as having been resurrected, where actually do you get this resurrection from?

    I have duly studied Dan 7 in earnest, but I'm afraid you have not made the case that the 24 elders are giving to *judge* the living. The case certainly is not proved above either. Notice that Dan 7:10 "...and the Books were opened" indicate that this is the Throne Judgement which is not of the living as you presented, but of the resurrected wicked? I don't think you'll ever find support anywhere in the Bible that the Books are 'opened' more than once.
    Problem for you is that Dan 7:10 occurs BEFORE the MK starts:
    Dan 7:10* A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.*
    Dan 7:11* “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.*
    Dan 7:12* As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    For your position to be valid, v-10 has to be before the end of the MK, meaning another opening of the Book at the end Rev 20:12
    The narrative as always is not in chronology. Notice that Dan 7:11-12 speak of the aftermath of Armageddon when the AC is cast into the LoF? Whereas, the opening of the books in v-10 denote the GWTJ.
    Verse 10 is BEFORE the MK starts, never mind before the end of the MK.
    The whole is chronologically consistent.
    Verse 1 - 8 has the events on earth of the various kingdoms arising (which are against God's people).
    9 - 12 then speaks of God's judgement and his response by killing the beast
    13 - 14 then speaks of what happens after which is clearly the MK

    15 - 20 is the explanation of the beasts
    21 -22 speaks of the final beast winning (the GT) and then judgement against the beast (the vials)
    23 - 26 then gives detail and again you should note the judgement is related to while the beast is still in power (which therefore is BEFORE the MK)

    Dan 7:26* But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.*

    His dominion being taken away is DIRECTLY following on from the judgement of the court. This court is clearly NOT the GWToJ, nor is it AFTER the resurrection, but precedes it. It is therefore a judgement of the living, just as God judged men in the time of Noah and in Sodom and Gomorrah.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You didn't comment on the context showing Paul spoke of our human bodies not the symbolic body of Christ.
    With regards to 2 Cor 5:10, Paul specifically spoke about works IN the body of Christ. You will find corroboration in 1 Cor 3:13-15

    2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


    Verse 9 gives a clue to what Paul meant by the things done in his body in v-10. Since you hold that it's about what the individual does in his OWN body, you must then address this question. If a believer abuses his/her own body with substances such as drug, alcohol or prostitution, etc, would you describe it as 'labour'?

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