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Thread: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

  1. #16
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The difference I think is that for God there was but one woman, but she was EITHER faithful OR she was a whore.
    In Revelation we have the woman being faithful in Rev 12 but a whore in Rev 17, which is AT THE SAME TIME.
    What indicates that they are at the same time? The beast is not even created until after the 1st woman flees into the wilderness. Is it not possible that the woman was seduced to alliance with the beast, since this is also what happened to the "woman" in Ezekiel?

    The dragon sees that he can't kill the woman, so he creates and uses world powers to persecute the rest of her offspring. The woman is seduced by the luxuries of the world and participates in the "blood of the saints" and cup full of abominations, so becomes a "whore." I think there's a strong case to be made that both women are symbols for Jerusalem. After the destruction there is a "New Jerusalem" which comes out of heaven described as a bride.

    What I like about this interpretation is that it gives an element of continuity throughout Revelation, whereas traditionally these would be three completely independent signs. The OT comparison definitely helps.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    In Revelation we have the woman being faithful in Rev 12 but a whore in Rev 17, which is AT THE SAME TIME. This then points to TWO women.
    She is protected up to 1260 days from the serpent.

    What happens from 1260 to 1335th day?

    Well the beast arises up from the pit after the 1260th day.

    Thus Rev 12 protected up to 1260th day. Rev 17 speaks of 1260 to 1335th day. Same women.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What indicates that they are at the same time? The beast is not even created until after the 1st woman flees into the wilderness. Is it not possible that the woman was seduced to alliance with the beast, since this is also what happened to the "woman" in Ezekiel?.
    It isn't written that she is seduced in fact twice she is protected in a special place and fed, as well as the Earth swallowing a flood. It's clear that this woman is protected by God and is untouchable by satan.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What indicates that they are at the same time? The beast is not even created until after the 1st woman flees into the wilderness. Is it not possible that the woman was seduced to alliance with the beast, since this is also what happened to the "woman" in Ezekiel?
    You have answered for me.
    The woman flees and is then nourished while the beast is in power. Therefore she is in the wilderness yet at the same time you have her in an alliance.

    The dragon sees that he can't kill the woman, so he creates and uses world powers to persecute the rest of her offspring. The woman is seduced by the luxuries of the world and participates in the "blood of the saints" and cup full of abominations, so becomes a "whore." I think there's a strong case to be made that both women are symbols for Jerusalem. After the destruction there is a "New Jerusalem" which comes out of heaven described as a bride.

    What I like about this interpretation is that it gives an element of continuity throughout Revelation, whereas traditionally these would be three completely independent signs. The OT comparison definitely helps.
    The woman can't be seduced because she is in the wilderness being nourished by God.
    The picture is from the OT and is found here:
    Deu 8:2* And you shall remember the whole way that the LORD your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.*
    Deu 8:3* And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

    So I agree that the OT helps, and we discover who the woman is from the OT, but I see no way for her to be BOTH in the wilderness living on every word that comes from the mouth of God AND is being seduced by the lies of the Beast.
    Now you could try and make one woman as faithful and the other as unfaithful, but throughout scripture Israel is described either as one or as the other.

    Therefore the picture is that one woman is Jezebel, and the other is Israel.

    Why Jezebel gets a bad press:
    1Ki 16:31* And as if it had been a light thing for him to walk in the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, he took for his wife Jezebel the daughter of Ethbaal king of the Sidonians, and went and served Baal and worshiped him.*
    1Ki 16:32* He erected an altar for Baal in the house of Baal, which he built in Samaria.*
    1Ki 16:33* And Ahab made an Asherah. Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel who were before him.*

    2Ki 9:7* And you shall strike down the house of Ahab your master, so that I may avenge on Jezebel the blood of my servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the LORD.*

    Rev 2:20* But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

    Rev 18:23* and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more, for your merchants were the great ones of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.*
    Rev 18:24* And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

    I also note that we read in verse 23 which speaks of the giving and receiving in marriage, yet also alludes to Jesus and the Church.

    Rev 18:4* Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;*

    Also here we have God's people in her (or part of her), yet this is not referring to the woman who has fled, for they are not in her, but in the wilderness.
    So the best idea for this whore is that of Apostate Christianity, where people who were Christian in name now do things contrary to God's call.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    in fact twice she is protected in a special place and fed, as well as the Earth swallowing a flood. It's clear that this woman is protected by God and is untouchable by satan.
    Note this is only for a period of time.


    It isn't written that she is seduced
    Rev 17.


    Ask yourself......are there really two separate woman in the wilderness at the same time?

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You have answered for me.
    The woman flees and is then nourished while the beast is in power. Therefore she is in the wilderness yet at the same time you have her in an alliance.
    The alliance happens AFTER she has been nourished for a time.

    but I see no way for her to be BOTH in the wilderness living on every word that comes from the mouth of God AND is being seduced by the lies of the Beast.
    Now you could try and make one woman as faithful and the other as unfaithful, but throughout scripture Israel is described either as one or as the other.
    But you can reconcile two separate woman in the wilderness a the same time?

    I think it would be more plausible for one faithful woman in the wilderness whom then commits whoredom.

    Rev 18:23* and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more, for your merchants were the great ones of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.*
    Rev 18:24* And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.

    I also note that we read in verse 23 which speaks of the giving and receiving in marriage, yet also alludes to Jesus and the Church.
    Is the bride really the church as widely taught? I think not. Who then are the friend or the guests called to the wedding?

    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Who are they talking to? The churches. Thus the bride cannot be the church.

    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;



    Rev 18:4* Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;*
    My people is a direct reference to Israel, not the church per scripture.

    Also here we have God's people in her (or part of her), yet this is not referring to the woman who has fled,
    Never mentions people fleeing. In fact we see the "people" of her seed going to war.

    So the best idea for this whore is that of Apostate Christianity, where people who were Christian in name now do things contrary to God's call.
    Quite the opposite. Jerusalem and Israel.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The alliance happens AFTER she has been nourished for a time.
    Not possible as that is when Jesus returns.

    But you can reconcile two separate woman in the wilderness a the same time?
    I think it would be more plausible for one faithful woman in the wilderness whom then commits whoredom.
    There aren't two women in the wilderness, ONLY one from Rev 12.

    Is the bride really the church as widely taught? I think not. Who then are the friend or the guests called to the wedding?
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    Who are they talking to? The churches. Thus the bride cannot be the church.
    Yes the Bride is the church. However the Bride is not an individual so the Church invites individuals to come and be part of the the Bride.

    My people is a direct reference to Israel, not the church per scripture.
    Actually His people are His. In the OT we connect it with Israel but in the NT it is widened.

    Never mentions people fleeing. In fact we see the "people" of her seed going to war.
    The woman flees. The woman represents a group of people which is Israel.

    Quite the opposite. Jerusalem and Israel.
    Nope.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There aren't two women in the wilderness, ONLY one from Rev 12.
    Rev 17
    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    So again you are claiming there are two separate woman in the same wilderness at the same time?

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev 17
    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
    So again you are claiming there are two separate woman in the same wilderness at the same time?
    John was carried away into the wilderness. However what John saw was a woman on a scarlet coloured beast.
    Is this the woman seen to be IN the wilderness?
    Rev 17:1* Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,

    Here we are told she is on many waters.
    There are more than one wilderness and more than one woman.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There are more than one wilderness and more than one woman.
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?


    Scriptures state the world itself becomes as a wilderness not the world has many wildernesses.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You have answered for me.
    The woman flees and is then nourished while the beast is in power. Therefore she is in the wilderness yet at the same time you have her in an alliance.
    Both women are in the wilderness, so this is still valid.

    A woman flees to the wilderness, then a beast is created, then there is a woman riding a beast in the wilderness. The OT Israel experience makes this continuity credible and suggests it's the same woman who becomes unfaithful.

    The woman can't be seduced because she is in the wilderness being nourished by God.
    This seems like an arbitrary constraint to me. Just as easily the dragon discovered that he couldn't kill the woman so he tries to entice her with worldliness. This is the exact same thing that happened to OT Israel/Jerusalem as you've given a good example with Jezebel.

    Deu 8:3* And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
    And simultaneously:

    Remember and do not forget how you provoked the Lord your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day you came out of the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the Lord. (Dt. 9:7)

    So this would parallel the Rev. woman's experience if the OP's theory is correct.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

    Scriptures state the world itself becomes as a wilderness not the world has many wildernesses.
    CONTEXT is key as always.
    Matt 3:1 has the wilderness of Judea.
    Matt 24:26 has wildernesses in general
    John 3:14 speaks of the wilderness of Sinai as does John 6:31
    Acts 21:38 speaks of a wilderness in Egypt
    2 Cor 11:26 has many wildernesses

    I don't know where specifically you are quoting from, but at the time of the TWO Women, there are multiple wildernesses.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Both women are in the wilderness, so this is still valid.
    You could have 50 women in the SAME wilderness or TWO women in TWO different wildernesses. This doesn't make the the same.
    The one woman is in communion with God, the other is NOT.
    So clearly they are TWO different women.

    This seems like an arbitrary constraint to me. Just as easily the dragon discovered that he couldn't kill the woman so he tries to entice her with worldliness. This is the exact same thing that happened to OT Israel/Jerusalem as you've given a good example with Jezebel.
    Not arbitrary at all. The dragon leaves the woman alone to go after her offspring. Why? Because he can't get to her.

    And simultaneously:
    Remember and do not forget how you provoked the Lord your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day you came out of the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the Lord. (Dt. 9:7)
    So this would parallel the Rev. woman's experience if the OP's theory is correct.
    No, for the difference is that the woman in Rev 12 is FAITHFUL, whereas the woman in Rev 17 is FAITHLESS. You CANNOT be faithful AND faithless AT THE SAME TIME. You are one or the other.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You could have 50 women in the SAME wilderness or TWO women in TWO different wildernesses. This doesn't make the the same.
    The one woman is in communion with God, the other is NOT.
    So clearly they are TWO different women.
    You're assuming the woman can't change, and I haven't yet seen your basis for that parameter. I'm not saying your interpretation is right or wrong, but there is OT support for the women being the same which makes it a credible alternative.

    No, for the difference is that the woman in Rev 12 is FAITHFUL, whereas the woman in Rev 17 is FAITHLESS. You CANNOT be faithful AND faithless AT THE SAME TIME. You are one or the other.
    There is precedence for being nourished by God and also rebellious to Him, which we both just demonstrated by citing Deuteronomy.

    I don't see anything in Revelation 12 about the first woman being "faithful," regardless. But this is a moot point because of OT Israel.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I don't see anything in Revelation 12 about the first woman being "faithful," regardless. But this is a moot point because of OT Israel.

    Actual she probably showed lack of faith leaving heaven, did she not think God could protect her there? Why would she leave? Satan had to get her out of heaven....

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You could have 50 women in the SAME wilderness or TWO women in TWO different wildernesses. This doesn't make the the same.
    The one woman is in communion with God, the other is NOT.
    So clearly they are TWO different women.


    Not arbitrary at all. The dragon leaves the woman alone to go after her offspring. Why? Because he can't get to her.


    No, for the difference is that the woman in Rev 12 is FAITHFUL, whereas the woman in Rev 17 is FAITHLESS. You CANNOT be faithful AND faithless AT THE SAME TIME. You are one or the other.
    There is only one woman which would matter if she committed fornication.... not 50.

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