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Thread: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

  1. #31
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    There's a similar dynamic regarding Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16.

    Again the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations," ... I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord God, and you became mine ... But you trusted in your beauty and played the whore ... (v. 1-15) ... I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. (v. 59-60)

    So there is precedence for what Ross is suggesting, that maybe "the woman" is a type of Jerusalem. At first beautiful, then plays the whore, then is restored again through God's covenant with her. The unfaithfulness seems to be similar also in that both women go after other nations:

    You also played the whore with the Egyptians ... also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied ... also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied. (Ez. 16:26-29)

    And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. (Rev. 13:2) ... And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. (17:15)

    The nations also have the same reaction to their respective "prostitute."

    Therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side ... I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged ... They shall strip you of your clothes and take your beautiful jewels and leave you naked and bare ... And they shall burn your houses and execute judgments upon you in the sight of many women. (Ez. 16:34-41)

    And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. (Rev. 17:16-17)

    If these are different women, they are at least strikingly parallel.
    There is a direct parallel between the Babylon harlot city in Revelation 17-18 and Jerusalem as a harlot in Ezekiel 16.

    But there is no... parallel with the woman in Revelation 12 and that harlot city. The woman in Rev.12 is about Israel; the harlot in Ezek.16 and Rev.17 is about a city.


    This is really easy guys, I'm surprised yal have such difficulty with the identity of the Rev.12 woman.

  2. #32
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Note this is only for a period of time.




    Rev 17.


    Ask yourself......are there really two separate woman in the wilderness at the same time?
    Yes. There is no correlation between the two women. One is Babylon and one is not. One is protected by God from the beast that Babylon is associated with.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #33
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Actual she probably showed lack of faith leaving heaven, did she not think God could protect her there? Why would she leave? Satan had to get her out of heaven....
    Hmm too much conjecture for me, personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    There is a direct parallel between the Babylon harlot city in Revelation 17-18 and Jerusalem as a harlot in Ezekiel 16. But there is no... parallel with the woman in Revelation 12 and that harlot city. The woman in Rev.12 is about Israel; the harlot in Ezek.16 and Rev.17 is about a city.
    Jerusalem is a city of and often representing Israel. Could you reword the problem?
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  4. #34
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    The woman is protected for 3.5 years starting at the end of Rev 12, the great trib begins in Rev 13...and it lasts 42 months which is 3.5 years...there is no time for her to become Babylon because Babylon existed through the GT while the Rev 12 woman is protected by God.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #35
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    You're assuming the woman can't change, and I haven't yet seen your basis for that parameter. I'm not saying your interpretation is right or wrong, but there is OT support for the women being the same which makes it a credible alternative.
    Actually there is NO OT support for the woman to be BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.
    The woman is EITHER one OR the other.
    Also when does the woman change?
    The Beast can't get to her because she has fled from him and is in the wilderness, so no opportunity to seduce etc.
    The picture given in Rev 12 is clearly that of a woman who is kept safe from the dragon and is for the duration of the rule of the beast.

    There is precedence for being nourished by God and also rebellious to Him, which we both just demonstrated by citing Deuteronomy.
    I don't see anything in Revelation 12 about the first woman being "faithful," regardless. But this is a moot point because of OT Israel.
    The woman isn't OT Israel.
    These are those who have responded to the Words of the " Witnesses and flee from the AC.
    Deuteronomy speaks of a people who left Egypt, yet kept Egypt in their hearts.
    Revelation speaks of a woman who didn't have Egypt in her heart - the clear example is Mary. She bore Jesus.
    Now this woman is those who left Jerusalem to go to be with God.
    Those who remain would therefore have to be the other woman - yet then we have a clear break. The problem with that idea is that those who remain in Jerusalem are taken and killed.

  6. #36
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The Beast can't get to her because she has fled from him and is in the wilderness, so no opportunity to seduce etc.
    Can she be seduced after the time, times, and a half? From 1260 to the 1335th day?

    The picture given in Rev 12 is clearly that of a woman who is kept safe from the dragon and is for the duration of the rule of the beast.
    Right and the duration is 1260. But as pointed out there is yet 75 days!!!

    Who is nourishing her and how?

    Thus the fact the "beast" is kept from her for 1260 does not mean she is not committing fornication with the kings of the earth during this time?

    The woman in Rev 12, why did she leave heaven? What is doing and where is she at? Hiding out on the earth in some remote location while the rest of the world centers around the other woman?

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    the great trib begins in Rev 13...and it lasts 42 months which is 3.5 years.
    The GT is from 1260 to 1335 per Daniel in conjunction with Matt 24. Thus after the 1260 she then could be not protected from the serpent.

    ..there is no time for her to become Babylon because Babylon existed through the GT while the Rev 12 woman is protected by God.
    [/QUOTE]

    Protected from the serpent. Does not mean she can't fornicate with others.

  8. #38
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually there is NO OT support for the woman to be BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.
    The Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness... and he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna... (Deut. 8)
    From the day you came out of the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the Lord... (Deut. 9)

    And:

    The vision of Isaiah ... concerning Judah and Jerusalem ... How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers. (Is. 1)

    Then:

    Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool ... Zion shall be redeemed by justice, and those in her who repent, by righteousness. But rebels and sinners shall be broken together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed. (Is. 1)

    And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband ... And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (Rev. 21)

    Also when does the woman change?
    At some point while in the wilderness. We have the before-and-after.

    The Beast can't get to her because she has fled from him and is in the wilderness, so no opportunity to seduce etc.
    More specifically the dragon can't kill her. The beast also does not harm the prostitute until after the time period she is being nourished according to Rev. 17.

    [snip multiple ideas]
    I'm having trouble following this. Is there a point you can make contextually? Here's my notes for Woman of Ch. 12 and Woman of Ch. 17:

    • The dragon-beast power intends to devour both women (12:13 & 17:16).
    • When the dragon first attempts to kill Woman of 12, she is preserved for 1260 days. Woman of 17 is devoured after the 1260 days.
    • After Woman 12 flees to the wilderness, the beast rises without Woman 17. The beast is later seen in the wilderness with Woman 17.

    Perhaps unintentional coincidence.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  9. #39
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Can she be seduced after the time, times, and a half? From 1260 to the 1335th day?
    there is no 1335th day in Revelation so how can you apply that to what's written in Rev 12? The end of the 1260 days is when Christ returns in the book of Rev so Satan will be imprisoned and cannot deceive so nor can he seduce until he is released and we only see the nations deceived at that time...no mention of this highly protected woman.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #40
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The GT is from 1260 to 1335 per Daniel in conjunction with Matt 24. Thus after the 1260 she then could be not protected from the serpent.




    Protected from the serpent. Does not mean she can't fornicate with others.
    Doesn't mean she doesn't learn to juggle either but why speculate on things that scripture speaks nothing about? This is nothing but a wild spurious goose chase.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #41
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    [COLOR=#000080]

    • The dragon-beast power intends to devour both women (12:13 & 17:16).
    And Rev 17:16 says no such thing regarding the beast or dragon.


    • When the dragon first attempts to kill Woman of 12, she is preserved for 1260 days. Woman of 17 is devoured after the 1260 days.
    Proving zero time for Rev 20's women to have ever been Babylon because Babylon existed long before the 1260 days. Babylon is religious confusion and all those who take part in it meaning at the very start of the 1260 days exactly the same time the Rev 12 woman flees away to safety.


    • After Woman 12 flees to the wilderness, the beast rises without Woman 17. The beast is later seen in the wilderness with Woman 17.
    Woman 12 doesn't just go to the wilderness. There is a special place in the wilderness that she goes. Woman 17 being in the wilderness is not being in the special place woman 12 has.

    It's just like science. Look at something with the bare eye and you only see a little. Look at it with a microscope and you see everything.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The end of the 1260 days is when Christ returns in the book of Rev
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    Do you see these as the same 1260 day period of time?

    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    As after the 1260 days of the two witnesses there are still days remaining.


    there is no 1335th day in Revelation so how can you apply that to what's written in Rev 12?
    There are more than 1260. Thus Daniel states the 1335th day is the last ending witch the wrath of God which parallels event in Rev. .

  13. #43
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    Do you see these as the same 1260 day period of time?
    Yes, it correlates to the 1260 days the woman is protected in her special place. She is hidden away and fed for the tribulation period. When a time period is regarding someone good, time is given in days. For the wicked time is given in months.

    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    As after the 1260 days of the two witnesses there are still days remaining.
    That's because their time begins 3.5 days before the 42 months do, which also means the beast still has 3.5 days left in the 42 months to rule, then the two prophets rise up and the 7th trump sounds and Christ returns which is the end of the beasts 42 months and the end of Rev 12's woman's 1260 days.


    There are more than 1260. Thus Daniel states the 1335th day is the last ending witch the wrath of God which parallels event in Rev. .
    As I said, Rev does not contain a 1335th day in regard to the 1260 or 42 months. It is unique to the book of David and cannot be applied to any part of Rev. Daniel also says three of the horns/kings will be uprooted/removed but again, not found to happen in the book of Rev. Clearly God made some changes.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Notice the reference to "holy" city in these verses.

    Rev 11:2
    But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    So the gentiles are treading not some wicked city rather they are treading the HOLY city during the tribulation. Providing more evidence that this is the woman/city in Rev 12. Notice NEW Jerusalem is also called the holy city. Difference being it is NEW as the OLD city in which the gentiles tread no longer exists.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Notice the reference to "holy" city in these verses.

    Rev 11:2
    But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Two different cities. One is old Jerusalem, the other is new Jerusalem which only arrives after judgment day when there is no one but immortal saints on the Earth.



    So the gentiles are treading not some wicked city rather they are treading the HOLY city during the tribulation.
    It began holy but will end up being unholy, called Egypt and Sodom which stands for false gods, slavery and immorality.

    Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
    Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.




    Providing more evidence that this is the woman/city in Rev 12.
    You provided zero evidence. Rev 12 woman is not a city and is not Jerusalem, and is not tread upon by anyone.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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