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Thread: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

  1. #46
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Two different cities. One is old Jerusalem, the other is new Jerusalem which only arrives after judgment day when there is no one but immortal saints on the Earth.

    New and improved item.....I always asked what happened to the old?. For their to be a "new" there needed to be an "old"

    So yes they can be two cities. Rev 12 and Rev 17 the same (old), Rev 21 (new)

    Rev 12 woman is not a city
    What is she?

  2. #47
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    The dragon-beast power intends to devour both women (12:13 & 17:16).
    And Rev 17:16 says no such thing regarding the beast or dragon.
    And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire... (Rev. 17:16)
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  3. #48
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    New and improved item.....I always asked what happened to the old?. For their to be a "new" there needed to be an "old"

    So yes they can be two cities. Rev 12 and Rev 17 the same (old), Rev 21 (new)



    What is she?
    Israel .
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #49
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire... (Rev. 17:16)
    It actually says this:

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


    "Upon" does not have the same meaning as the word "and".
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #50
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    "Upon" does not have the same meaning as the word "and".
    This is a silly distinction because the horns are themselves a part of the beast. But I'll just post these for the readers who aren't KJV-onlyists and they can make a determination on what "it actually says":

    The ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. (ESV)
    The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. (NIV)
    The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot (NASB)
    The ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot (ASV)
    The ten horns and the beast you saw will hate the prostitute (ISV)
    The ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore (NRSV)
    The scarlet beast and his ten horns all hate the prostitute. (NLT)
    The ten horns you saw, and the beast, will hate the prostitute. (CSB)
    The ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute (Berean)
    The ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. (CEB)
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  6. #51
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Revelation 17:16

    (ABP+) AndG2532 theG3588 tenG1176 hornsG2768 whichG3739 you sawG1492 uponG1909 theG3588 beast,G2342 theseG3778 shall detestG3404 theG3588 harlot,G4204 andG2532 [3being made desolateG2049 1they shall causeG4160 2her],G1473 andG2532 [3nakedG1131 1shall makeG4160 2her],G1473 andG2532 G3588 [2her fleshG4561 G1473 1shall devour],G2068 andG2532 shall incinerate herG1473 G2618 byG1722 fire.G4442

    (DRB) And the ten horns which thou sawest in the beast: These shall hate the harlot and shall make her desolate and naked and shall eat her flesh and shall burn her with fire.

    (KJV) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    (LITV) And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, and will make her desolated and naked. And they will eat her flesh, and will burn her down with fire.

    (MKJV) and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

    (Webster) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    (YLT) and the ten horns that thou didst see upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her in fire,



    The Greek supports this translation:

    17:16 καὶ τὰ δέκα κέρατα ἃ εἶδες ἐπὶ τὸ θηρίον οὗτοι μισήσουσιν τὴν πόρνην καὶ ἠρημωμένην ποιήσουσιν αὐτὴν καὶ γυμνήν καὶ τὰς σάρκας αὐτῆς φάγονται καὶ αὐτὴν κατακαύσουσιν ἐν πυρί

    Which translates exactly to:

    And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Horns upon/ἐπί the beast, not the horns and the beast.





    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    This is a silly distinction because the horns are themselves a part of the beast. But I'll just post these for the readers who aren't KJV-onlyists and they can make a determination on what "it actually says":

    The ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. (ESV)
    The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. (NIV)
    The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot (NASB)
    The ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot (ASV)
    The ten horns and the beast you saw will hate the prostitute (ISV)
    The ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore (NRSV)
    The scarlet beast and his ten horns all hate the prostitute. (NLT)
    The ten horns you saw, and the beast, will hate the prostitute. (CSB)
    The ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute (Berean)
    The ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. (CEB)
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #52
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Also compare these:

    Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    The whore is religious system and the beast is the political/military system. It's all part of the same thing. The ten horns are ten kings that give their kingdoms to the beast, which the whore rides upon. It doesn't make any sense for the beast to hate what it used to help it rule the world. Only the ten kings hating the whore makes sense. Plus, the beast and whore have similar fates. Both are merely systems of control over people.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #53
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The whore is religious system and the beast is the political/military system.
    Your reading too much Jack VanImpe

    The Whore is clearly a city.

    18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    Your missing the big picture of what is taking place. The beast is claiming God, not a Pope or world dictator. Then the setting has to be and take place like when Christ returns. Think counterfeit and you will understand these things.

  9. #54
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The Whore is clearly a city.
    Rev is the most symbolic book in the bible so taking a hyper literal stance might be a mistake. A city is symbolism for a lot of people who are like mind. That Babylon means confusion in the Greek means these are the confused people of the world during the great trib. They are the ones that will burn and be destroyed on judgment day.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The Greek supports this translation:
    καὶ [Strong's 2532] (And) - τὰ [3588] (the) - δέκα [1176] (ten) - κέρατα [2768] (horns) - ἃ [3739] (that) - εἶδες [3708] (you saw) - καὶ [2532] (and) - τὸ [2588] (the) - θηρίον [2342] (beast) - οὗτοι [3778] (these) - μισήσουσιν [3404] (will hate) - τὴν [3588] (the) - πόρνην [4204] prostitute. 17:16 Greek Interlinear

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The whore is religious system and the beast is the political/military system. It's all part of the same thing.
    But not the beast's own horns...?
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  11. #56
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post

    But not the beast's own horns...?
    The beast is a governmental system spanning 7 mountains which I believe to mean the whole world, 7 continents. The ten horns are ten real people who are kings and have kingdoms full of people which exist throughout the entire world/the 7 mountains.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The beast is a governmental system spanning 7 mountains which I believe to mean the whole world, 7 continents. The ten horns are ten real people who are kings and have kingdoms full of people which exist throughout the entire world/the 7 mountains.
    In your view are not the king's kingdoms part of the beast?
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  13. #58
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    In your view are not the king's kingdoms part of the beast?
    For an hour.

    Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    But they only give their kingdoms until a certain point in time. That is when they turn on the whore that rode/partnered with the beast.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post

    Jerusalem is a city of and often representing Israel. Could you reword the problem?
    The problem is with ross wrongly suggesting that the symbolic "woman" of Rev.12 is the Babylon harlot city of Rev.17. They aren't, but are instead opposites. Your post I quoted somewhat agrees with ross' supposition.

    The woman at the start of Rev.12 is about Israel since those symbols first appeared in Joseph's dream of Genesis 37. Ross doesn't want Gen.37 to come into the argument, obviously because it blows his supposition into pieces.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    The problem is with ross wrongly suggesting that the symbolic "woman" of Rev.12 is the Babylon harlot city of Rev.17. They aren't, but are instead opposites.
    What prevents Rev. 12 and Rev. 17 from being before and after states of the same woman Jerusalem/Israel? This dynamic has already been expressed in Ezekiel 16, so it's not as if it's unprecedented symbolism.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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