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Thread: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

  1. #61
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What prevents Rev. 12 and Rev. 17 from being before and after states of the same woman Jerusalem/Israel? This dynamic has already been expressed in Ezekiel 16, so it's not as if it's unprecedented symbolism.
    A before and after status could be a possibility.
    The problem is that Rev 12 is AT THE SAME TIME as Rev 17.
    Rev 12 is the START of the beast's rule and Rev 17 is the woman for the duration of the beast's rule (until the final vial.)
    So it is NOT possible for them to be the SAME woman.
    Further the beast is out to wipe out the Jews, and would not let them be in the driving seat, riding him but would get rid of her immediately. Unless you see the beast AS the wilderness to which she flees, which I think doesn't work.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    A before and after status could be a possibility.
    The problem is that Rev 12 is AT THE SAME TIME as Rev 17.
    Rev 12 is the START of the beast's rule and Rev 17 is the woman for the duration of the beast's rule (until the final vial.)
    So it is NOT possible for them to be the SAME woman.
    Further the beast is out to wipe out the Jews, and would not let them be in the driving seat, riding him but would get rid of her immediately. Unless you see the beast AS the wilderness to which she flees, which I think doesn't work.
    That's the thing Rev 12 and 17 are NOT at the same time.

    Rev 12 is during the 3.5 years. Rev 17 then is a description after the 3.5 years when the beast arises from the pit and unites with the woman. 1260-1335.


    Yes the woman in Rev 17 is around for 3.5 being nourished which I think is by the kings of the earth. Rev 17 just shows a latter state.

  3. #63
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    A before and after status could be a possibility.
    The problem is that Rev 12 is AT THE SAME TIME as Rev 17. Rev 12 is the START of the beast's rule and Rev 17 is the woman for the duration of the beast's rule (until the final vial.)
    The beast is not even created until after the 12 woman has fled into the wilderness, and the prostitute is not mentioned until later.

    A woman flees from being devoured in 12 for a duration.
    The beast rises with no woman mentioned.
    A woman is later sitting on the beast.
    The duration expires and she is devoured by the beast.
    The beast and all parties are defeated and judged.
    Finally a bride appears as Jerusalem is perfected.

    Seems like a common thread to me. I don't know if I like it more than my current interpretation yet, but there's definitely some relation between these events.

    Further the beast is out to wipe out the Jews, and would not let them be in the driving seat, riding him but would get rid of her immediately.
    This is not what happened in the OT, but contextually it does say in 17 that they are carrying out God's purpose. Evidently once "the words of God are fulfilled" in 17, the beast is just as enthusiastic about devouring her as it was the woman in 12. So I think the intention from the dragon's point of view is to use worldliness to seduce the woman, as was the case in Ezekiel 16 (which has the same result).

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev 17 then is a description after the 3.5 years when the beast arises from the pit and unites with the woman.
    I think the timeframe of 13-17 is extremely condensed, but for 12 and 17 to be the same woman, she would have to play a role in some duration of the beast's rule.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  4. #64
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    T

    A woman flees from being devoured in 12 for a duration.
    Rev 12 does not say she was fleeing from being devoured. Read it again.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post


    I think the timeframe of 13-17 is extremely condensed, but for 12 and 17 to be the same woman, she would have to play a role in some duration of the beast's rule.
    There is a beast, then there is a serpent (satan) two different entities. The text says she protected from Satan for 1260 not the beast. Note when Rev 17 occurs the beast is Satan + beast are one entity.

  6. #66
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    There is a beast, then there is a serpent (satan) two different entities. The text says she protected from Satan for 1260 not the beast. Note when Rev 17 occurs the beast is Satan + beast are one entity.
    True but since Babylon is being judged for the immorality with the beast, I think this would have to mean before the final judgment. Chapter 13 into 14 also suggests she participates and benefits from the dragon/beast's persecution during the 1260.

    A critical question could be whether "the beast will hate the prostitute" is continuous throughout its war or only after the 1260 has expired.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    A critical question could be whether "the beast will hate the prostitute" is continuous throughout its war or only after the 1260 has expired.
    Only part of the beast (10 horns) hates the whore. The beast itself does not. So correctly understanding who the ten horns are is important.

    The ten horns are in charge of a kingdom which they give power to the beast and hate the whore. Does god put anything in the hearts of the ungodly?

    16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
    17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    The ten horns represent the northern kingdom ten tribes of Israel. They made a pact with the beast and gave them their kingdom. Note the beast (dressed in scarlet representing Christ ie little horn second beast rev 13) himself has the other two horns representing Judah. AKA counterfeit lamb. So what we also see in Rev 17 not only does the beast have union with the world but also Israel.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The ten horns represent the northern kingdom ten tribes of Israel.
    The ten tribes formed one single kingdom not ten. The ten horns also do not receive a kingdom until the beast rises:

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    So it is impossible in many ways for these to be the ten tribes of Israel.

    But you are right on the beast not hating the whore and the second beast of Rev 13 being the counterfeit lamb so applaud you on those.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Only part of the beast (10 horns) hates the whore. The beast itself does not.
    The majority of translations say the horns and the beast, but it's a non-distinction because the horns are a part of the beast. If this is a sticking-point for another of your views, then you could simply change the question to how long the horns hate her, since they are mentioned from the start. It's the same issue.

    So what we also see in Rev 17 not only does the beast have union with the world but also Israel.
    Okay we reach the same conclusion through different paths then.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  10. #70
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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    The beast is not even created until after the 12 woman has fled into the wilderness, and the prostitute is not mentioned until later.

    A woman flees from being devoured in 12 for a duration.
    The beast rises with no woman mentioned.
    A woman is later sitting on the beast.
    The duration expires and she is devoured by the beast.
    The beast and all parties are defeated and judged.
    Finally a bride appears as Jerusalem is perfected.

    Seems like a common thread to me. I don't know if I like it more than my current interpretation yet, but there's definitely some relation between these events.
    OK a few errors here.
    1) The beast was a long time ago:
    Rev 17:8* The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction.

    Notice the beast was, some time BEFORE the vision.
    The beast is not, at the time of the vision - that is during the Roman kingdom

    The beast is about to rise from the pit, a time FUTURE to the giving of the vision.

    2) We have the pit (where the beast is) opened here:
    Rev 9:1* And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.*
    Rev 9:2* He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.

    3) This is before the woman:
    This is with the 5th trumpet which lasts 5 months:
    Rev 9:5* They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.*

    Rev 9:12* The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come.
    So during the 1st woe the pit is opened and the beast would be able to rise from the pit.

    4) We then have the period of the 2nd woe which lasts at least 42 months.
    No mention of any woman yet.

    5) We then have mention of the woman who flees in conjunction with the 3rd woe when Satan is cast to the earth.
    The duration is 1260 days.
    Rev 13 also has the beast come of the scene for a duration of 42 months.
    1260 days IS 42 months if each month is 30 days long.

    At the end of the 42 months the beast is gone.
    So are you claiming the woman rides the beast at the same time she is in the wilderness?
    This does NOT fit the picture being given.
    Further Satan is trying to kill the woman and then once he can't tries to kill someone else.

    This is not what happened in the OT, but contextually it does say in 17 that they are carrying out God's purpose. Evidently once "the words of God are fulfilled" in 17, the beast is just as enthusiastic about devouring her as it was the woman in 12. So I think the intention from the dragon's point of view is to use worldliness to seduce the woman, as was the case in Ezekiel 16 (which has the same result).
    Clearly two separate women.
    The destruction of the woman in Rev 17 is God's plan, but that is NOT God's plan for the woman of Rev 12.
    These two women are opposites.

    I think the timeframe of 13-17 is extremely condensed, but for 12 and 17 to be the same woman, she would have to play a role in some duration of the beast's rule.
    The woman of Rev 12 plays no role beyond being chased.
    The woman of Rev 17 has another role altogether which is unclear. Is the woman the false religion of the false prophet? I don't think so, though I could understand the thought.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    That's the thing Rev 12 and 17 are NOT at the same time.
    Rev 12 is during the 3.5 years. Rev 17 then is a description after the 3.5 years when the beast arises from the pit and unites with the woman. 1260-1335.
    Yes the woman in Rev 17 is around for 3.5 being nourished which I think is by the kings of the earth. Rev 17 just shows a latter state.
    Sorry but Rev 12 is the START of the 42 months and on for 1260 days. Rev 17 is DURING the 42 months So it IS the SAME TIME.

    There is no 1260-1335 days. That was fulfilled in the time of A4E.
    Rev 12 being nourished is by God NOT by some kings.
    Rev 17 is NOT a latter state, but the state throughout the period of the beast's rule.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sorry but Rev 12 is the START of the 42 months and on for 1260 days. Rev 17 is DURING the 42 months So it IS the SAME TIME.
    Rev 17 is NOT a latter state, but the state throughout the period of the beast's rule.
    It must be after the 1260 why? In rev 17 we see the woman RIDING the beast which could not happen during the 1260 why? because the beast had not risen up from the pit yet!!! The beast does not arise from the pit until after the 1260!!!!!i

    Rev11
    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony (1260 days), the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    Rev17
    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (1260th day), and go into perdition: (1260-1335).


    Rev 12 being nourished is by God NOT by some kings.

    Never says who is specifically nourishing her.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    It must be after the 1260 why? In rev 17 we see the woman RIDING the beast which could not happen during the 1260 why? because the beast had not risen up from the pit yet!!! The beast does not arise from the pit until after the 1260!!!!!i

    Rev11
    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony (1260 days), the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    Rev17
    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (1260th day), and go into perdition: (1260-1335).
    Incorrect claim for lots of reasons:
    1) The beast had ALREADY ascended from the pit BEFORE killing the 2W.
    2) We have the pit opened with the 5th trumpet.
    3) You confuse the 1260 days of the 2W with the time the woman has to flee. She doesn't flee UNTIL the 2W are killed.
    4) The 1260 days of the woman in the wilderness ends with Jesus' return. There is NO 1260 -1335 days.

    Never says who is specifically nourishing her.
    Rev 12:6* and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

    Are you really claiming that God prepares a place for her and in which she is to be nourished and yet it is NOT God nourishing her?
    Sorry but that is contrary to the purpose implicit in the statement.
    God doesn't protect her from Satan only to have her being nourished by Satan.

    Sometimes you make sense and make good questions and sometimes you make points like this which simply means you haven't thought it through.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    1) The beast had ALREADY ascended from the pit BEFORE killing the 2W.
    So the beast hangs out for 1260 then at the end he then decides to make war with the 2W???

    2) We have the pit opened with the 5th trumpet.
    Correct and that's is where the second beast comes up from the pit. The 5th trumpet is for 150 days (ends the 1260 time frame). The 6th for 75 to equal the 1335. 7th trumpet wrath and Christ returns.

    First beast 1--1260. Second beast + First beast 1260--1335.

    3) You confuse the 1260 days of the 2W with the time the woman has to flee. She doesn't flee UNTIL the 2W are killed.
    It appears you take Rev chronologically and see 2 1260 time frames. I think there is your confusion. The 2W and the time of the woman in the wilderness are the same time frame.

    Rev 12:6* and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

    Are you really claiming that God prepares a place for her and in which she is to be nourished and yet it is NOT God nourishing her?
    Sorry but that is contrary to the purpose implicit in the statement.
    God doesn't protect her from Satan only to have her being nourished by Satan.
    You could say then Satan (man) is nourishing you today. Is God nourishing you directly today? No but thru man. Likewise the woman, it is a city. To me it would be nourished by the interaction with people. AND you miss a key word here...."they" shall feed her. Who is they other than the people or the kings of the earth.????

    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Rev 18
    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So the beast hangs out for 1260 then at the end he then decides to make war with the 2W???
    Nope the beast knows he can't get the 2W, he will send people to try who will be killed by fire from their mouths.
    However when the 1260 days are up he will kill them and then sit in the temple and declare himself as god.
    Remember the last 42 months of the final week is the beast's rule. However he will have made a covenant with many for the time before hand.

    Correct and that's is where the second beast comes up from the pit. The 5th trumpet is for 150 days (ends the 1260 time frame). The 6th for 75 to equal the 1335. 7th trumpet wrath and Christ returns.

    First beast 1--1260. Second beast + First beast 1260--1335.
    Your timing is wrong.
    The 5 months is BEFORE the 1260 days starts.
    The 1260 days of the 2W doesn't START until AFTER the 6th trumpet has been blown.

    It appears you take Rev chronologically and see 2 1260 time frames. I think there is your confusion. The 2W and the time of the woman in the wilderness are the same time frame.
    No confusion, the 5th trumpet is BEFORE the 6th which is before the 7th. They are sequential and NOT all at the same time.

    You could say then Satan (man) is nourishing you today. Is God nourishing you directly today? No but thru man. Likewise the woman, it is a city. To me it would be nourished by the interaction with people. AND you miss a key word here...."they" shall feed her. Who is they other than the people or the kings of the earth.????
    No I could not say Satan is nourishing me today.
    Further God does nourish me from His Word.
    The woman in Rev 12 is NOT a city. A city CANNOT flee. Rev 17 though is called a city, which shows clearly it is TWO different women.
    There is NO word they.
    Rev 12:6* and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. (ESV)

    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    You have quoted the KJV and the word "they" is NOT in the original Greek. KJV is not the best translation though no translation is perfect.

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