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Thread: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

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    Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    First we see this woman in heaven then we see her flee heaven unto the earth into a wilderness. (note I see the wilderness as the current state of the earth at the time). Then we see a THE beast and a woman together as one in the wilderness. This represents the woman committing fornication. The woman is a city. It is a mystery city. It is a city in which John has admiration. Why, for it is the city of God. Now most will say this is another woman than the one in Rev 12, but is there? Why would another woman (city) even matter if an unfaithful woman is committing fornication. For that matter what faithful city exists wherein has not committed fornication already!!! So do we really have two different woman in the wilderness at the same time? No

    So actually there is only one woman in Rev 12, Rev 17, Rev 21.


    The Woman in Heaven

    Rev 12
    12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    The Woman on earth (wilderness)

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness,

    The Woman committing fornication

    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    Note she IS protected from the face of the serpent in the wilderness for 1260 days. However once the beast comes up from the pit thereafter the fornication (and false marriage) takes place from 1290-1335th day. No wonder God is so angry at the woman!

    The Woman is made anew

    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    The Woman's appearance

    Also, the woman's appearance of heavenly Jerusalem is likened unto the one seen riding the beast.

    Rev 17
    4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    Rev 21
    18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
    19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.
    21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls:


    Now that will be a deception of all time for the beast who is claiming to be the Christ is actually proclaiming this from the literal city of God upon earth? Who will know the difference! (unless we see this truth and inform the world). No wonder those on earth are willing to accept his mark and put to death their brothers whom reject him!!! If he proclaims himself Christ from any other "earthly" city he would be a known fraud. Now we can understand how it is possible for the following to occur....


    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Revelation 12:1-2 ......there appeared a great sign in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, beneath her feet the moon and on her head, a crown of twelve stars. She cried out in the pain of her labour.
    Revelation 12:17 Furious with the woman, [faithful Christians, taken to safety] the dragon goes off to wage war with the rest of her offspring. [other Christians. The two groups are shown in Daniel 11:32.]

    There are differing theories as to who this ‘woman’ represents. Some say that it is the Virgin Mary and she was indeed, the mother of the ‘man child’, Jesus. Others identify her with the ‘Mother Church’, or all of Christendom.
    I consider that the correct identification is that she represents the Israel of God. That is: every faithful Christian believer. Galatians 6:16
    Israel is often referred to as a married woman; Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:1-11, Hosea 2:14-23
    To hold that the woman is ethnic Israel, is wrong, but Jesus came from Israel [Judah] and His chosen Christian people, from every race, nation and language, is the result of His work; His seed.

    “clothed with the sun” Christians recognize and honour Jesus Christ as the Son [sun] of Righteousness. They will be the bearers of this divine light.

    the moon under her feet” As the moon is subordinate to the sun and gets her light from it, so all of Israel’s glory comes from Jesus. The moon shines at night, so a redeemed Israel will be people from every tribe, race, nation and language, living in peace and security in all of the holy Land, will be a bright witness during the darkness of the Tribulation era.

    “A crown of twelve stars on her head” Symbolic of the twelve tribes of Israel, all the Lord’s faithful people. The future authority and rule of Christians during the Millennium are portrayed in Joseph’s dream. Genesis 37:9 Twelve is the number symbolic of government.

    crying out in pain” This seems to refer to the coming time of trial for Judah, Israel and all the worlds peoples. The prophet Micah confirms this in a clear prophecy. After referring to the birth of the Messiah in Micah 5:2 , he then says in; Micah 5:3 Therefore, only until she who is pregnant has given birth, will He give up Israel .....and then those of the people who survive will rejoin their brethren.

    “the rest of her offspring” Those Christians who remain in Israel and around the world, who refuse to take the mark of the beast.

    The parenthesis in the middle of Micah 5:3, is a time period of nearly 2000 years. Confirmed by Jesus; Luke 13:32, and Hosea 6:2
    Very soon dramatic changes will happen on this world. The Lord’s plan for the end period of this age will commence with a worldwide judgement of fire upon His enemies, then all those prophecies about the resettlement of the Land of Israel by the Christian peoples, the rise of the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation will take place. After that Jesus will Return and reign with His saints for 1000 years.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So actually there is only one woman in Rev 12, Rev 17, Rev 21.
    This is definitely worth considering.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    This is definitely worth considering.
    Thanks, refreshing to hear.....

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    First we see this woman in heaven then we see her flee heaven unto the earth into a wilderness. (note I see the wilderness as the current state of the earth at the time). Then we see a THE beast and a woman together as one in the wilderness. This represents the woman committing fornication. The woman is a city. It is a mystery city. It is a city in which John has admiration. Why, for it is the city of God. Now most will say this is another woman than the one in Rev 12, but is there? Why would another woman (city) even matter if an unfaithful woman is committing fornication. For that matter what faithful city exists wherein has not committed fornication already!!! So do we really have two different woman in the wilderness at the same time? No

    So actually there is only one woman in Rev 12, Rev 17, Rev 21.


    The Woman in Heaven

    Rev 12
    12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    The symbolic woman in Rev.12 is not a city. Those symbols in Rev.12:1 are related to Genesis 37 with the dreams Joseph had about his mother and father and eleven brethren...

    Gen 37:9-10
    And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

    10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
    KJV



    So the symbolic woman of Rev.12 represents God's Israel. And in the last Rev.12 verse, the symbolic woman represents Christ's Church, for that is who keeps God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    This is definitely worth considering.
    It is. However on reflection we see two women - one who is used by God for His kingdom and one who opposes God.
    So is it two aspects of the same woman?
    I don't see how that would work, either the woman is representing a people who are following God or a people who are against God.
    The woman in Rev 12 is nourished and protected, but at the SAME time the other woman is persecuting Christians.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    First we see this woman in heaven then we see her flee heaven unto the earth into a wilderness.

    The Woman in Heaven

    Rev 12
    12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    I noticed you have the woman actually in heaven, you probably already know there is more than one way to read the verse but just in case..

    For example, There appeared a great sign in England, the moon was red during the day and appeared on fire during the night.

    When I read my example I don't read that the moon was actually in England but the sign was seen from England.
    When I read Rev 12:1 I don't read that the woman was in heaven but seen by the heavenly realm.

    Of course it could be as you read it, but I don't read it that way for then I would have to read lots of things differently to make it fit

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    The symbolic woman in Rev.12 is not a city. Those symbols in Rev.12:1 are related to Genesis 37 with the dreams Joseph had about his mother and father and eleven brethren...
    There is no need to go all the way back to Genesis when we can look to the same book for the answer. A woman is described as a city in Revelation, thus there is no reason not to conclude that this would be consistent though out Revelation. In Rev 17 and 21 we see a woman as a city but then not to interpret as such in Rev 12?

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I noticed you have the woman actually in heaven, you probably already know there is more than one way to read the verse but just in case..
    No I did not...…it's pretty clear the woman and events are IN heaven.

    1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;

    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven;

    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

    7 And there was war in heaven:

    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,

    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is. However on reflection we see two women - one who is used by God for His kingdom and one who opposes God.
    Rather one woman's progression being unfaithful to redemption.

    So is it two aspects of the same woman?
    I don't see how that would work, either the woman is representing a people who are following God or a people who are against God.
    Both. Just like the church. The woman represents Israel which like the church is made up of those following and those against.

    The woman in Rev 12 is nourished and protected, but at the SAME time the other woman is persecuting Christians.
    Who says the women is doing the persecution? And remember also that those being persecuted are viewed as the unbelievers (for not taking the mark of the beast).

    it is the beast which does the persecution of the supposed unbelievers and once they are removed then the beast (which arises from the pit day 1260) and the woman unite (Rev 17 marriage). Sound familiar?

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    There is no need to go all the way back to Genesis when we can look to the same book for the answer. A woman is described as a city in Revelation, thus there is no reason not to conclude that this would be consistent though out Revelation. In Rev 17 and 21 we see a woman as a city but then not to interpret as such in Rev 12?
    Well, yes, there is a need to look at Genesis, especially when studying Revelation, simply because there are many parallels.

    The woman in Rev.12:1 was defined in Genesis 37 by those symbols. That is using God's Word to interpret God's Word, which is how it is done.

    The main theme in Revelation 12 once we get past verse 5 are events about the end of this world involving Christ's Church. That's the flow of that chapter. But in Rev.17 & 18, the flow of those chapters are about the symbolic Babylon harlot, just the opposite of Christ's Church. It's best to not confuse the two.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Well, yes, there is a need to look at Genesis, especially when studying Revelation, simply because there are many parallels.

    The woman in Rev.12:1 was defined in Genesis 37 by those symbols. That is using God's Word to interpret God's Word, which is how it is done.

    The main theme in Revelation 12 once we get past verse 5 are events about the end of this world involving Christ's Church. That's the flow of that chapter. But in Rev.17 & 18, the flow of those chapters are about the symbolic Babylon harlot, just the opposite of Christ's Church. It's best to not confuse the two.
    It appears you have your mind set, so I will leave it at that.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is. However on reflection we see two women - one who is used by God for His kingdom and one who opposes God.
    There's a similar dynamic regarding Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16.

    Again the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations," ... I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord God, and you became mine ... But you trusted in your beauty and played the whore ... (v. 1-15) ... I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. (v. 59-60)

    So there is precedence for what Ross is suggesting, that maybe "the woman" is a type of Jerusalem. At first beautiful, then plays the whore, then is restored again through God's covenant with her. The unfaithfulness seems to be similar also in that both women go after other nations:

    You also played the whore with the Egyptians ... also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied ... also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied. (Ez. 16:26-29)

    And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. (Rev. 13:2) ... And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. (17:15)

    The nations also have the same reaction to their respective "prostitute."

    Therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side ... I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged ... They shall strip you of your clothes and take your beautiful jewels and leave you naked and bare ... And they shall burn your houses and execute judgments upon you in the sight of many women. (Ez. 16:34-41)

    And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. (Rev. 17:16-17)

    If these are different women, they are at least strikingly parallel.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    First we see this woman in heaven then we see her flee heaven unto the earth into a wilderness. (note I see the wilderness as the current state of the earth at the time). Then we see a THE beast and a woman together as one in the wilderness. This represents the woman committing fornication. The woman is a city. It is a mystery city. It is a city in which John has admiration. Why, for it is the city of God. Now most will say this is another woman than the one in Rev 12, but is there? Why would another woman (city) even matter if an unfaithful woman is committing fornication. For that matter what faithful city exists wherein has not committed fornication already!!! So do we really have two different woman in the wilderness at the same time? No

    So actually there is only one woman in Rev 12, Rev 17, Rev 21.


    The Woman in Heaven

    Rev 12
    12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    The Woman on earth (wilderness)

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness,

    The Woman committing fornication

    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    Note she IS protected from the face of the serpent in the wilderness for 1260 days. However once the beast comes up from the pit thereafter the fornication (and false marriage) takes place from 1290-1335th day. No wonder God is so angry at the woman!

    The Woman is made anew

    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    I'm trying to follow your line of reasoning here. Unfortunately it's not clicking for me atm.

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    Re: Heavenly Jerusalem comes to the old earth first PRIOR to Christ's return

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    There's a similar dynamic regarding Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16.

    Again the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations," ... I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord God, and you became mine ... But you trusted in your beauty and played the whore ... (v. 1-15) ... I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. (v. 59-60)

    So there is precedence for what Ross is suggesting, that maybe "the woman" is a type of Jerusalem. At first beautiful, then plays the whore, then is restored again through God's covenant with her. The unfaithfulness seems to be similar also in that both women go after other nations:

    You also played the whore with the Egyptians ... also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied ... also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied. (Ez. 16:26-29)

    And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. (Rev. 13:2) ... And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. (17:15)

    The nations also have the same reaction to their respective "prostitute."

    Therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side ... I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged ... They shall strip you of your clothes and take your beautiful jewels and leave you naked and bare ... And they shall burn your houses and execute judgments upon you in the sight of many women. (Ez. 16:34-41)

    And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. (Rev. 17:16-17)

    If these are different women, they are at least strikingly parallel.
    The difference I think is that for God there was but one woman, but she was EITHER faithful OR she was a whore.
    In Revelation we have the woman being faithful in Rev 12 but a whore in Rev 17, which is AT THE SAME TIME.
    This is my problem with claiming them as the same woman.
    If she is a whore then she is to face judgement, but if faithful then protection. How can she be BOTH at the same time?
    This then points to TWO women.
    Also in scripture it isn't only Israel or Judah who is a woman.
    A common view used to be that the whore was the Apostate Christian Church.

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