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Thread: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

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    Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    In Matthew 24:15-22, Jesus explains about an Abomination of Desolation (AoD) which is directly followed by Judaea Running away. They are warned to Run because of an imminent threat event called the GREAT TRIBULATION. And of this Tribulation specifically, we are told "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.". So in simple form, we see a AoD, then a Great Distres unlike any other, and a Running away from Judaea.

    Now lets look at Daniel 11 & 12 for a moment.

    Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Lets focus on the event here of " a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time". I hope you can see the direct link to what Jesus said here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." THIS IS CLEARLY THE SAME TIME.

    So now, we can, without a doubt link Matt 24:21 in TIME to Daniel 12:1. With this easily obtained knowledge, I can now place the the entirety of Daniel 12:1-5 into the Narrative of Matt 24:3-51. But what I want you to see is this:

    Daniel 12:1 "And at that time". WHAT TIME? Now, being a good scholar of the Word of God, I am well aware that when Daniel was written, there were not chapters and verses. Chapter 11 of Daniel continues without pause into Chapter 12. So now all I must do is back up to see what "THAT TIME" is refraining. Common sense would dictate that I read the previous Chapter to assess what time the Text is referring to.

    So, as I read Daniel 11, I suddenly come across the Abomination of Desolation. That's interesting, as now I have another comparison to Matt 24... Lets compare:

    Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Well looky there... Jesus even reminded us to look back into Daniel to find His refrance of the AoD. Lets see if it happens in Daniel 11 too:

    Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    Interesting... But lets dig a little deeper... We were looking for a "AT THAT TIME" from Daniel 12:1, weren't we? We are looking for AN APPOINTED TIME that is assigned as "THAT TIME" in Daniel 12:1. I'll cut to the chase...

    Daniel 11:27 And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed. Pay special attention to this highlighted phrase.

    Daniel 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. -

    He that has ears let him hear. Now look at WHEN the VILE MAN from Daniel 11:21 causes the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. That moment is APPOINTED.

    Now there is another place that could align with the Statement "AT THAT TIME" in Daniel 12:1 too. Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

    Here is discernment: Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Notice in Daniel 11:27, the appointed time is the END, yet in Daniel 11:35, the time appointed is "The time of the End". Both are correct and cover a small amount of time.

    Clearly, Daniel 12:1 links Michael standing up to the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:21, which then links Daniel 12:1 to Daniel 11:31. This can be further confirmed by the actions that occur after Daniel 11:31 which match GREAT TRIBULATION of Saints. A massive wipe out of Holy People as also accounted for in Daniel 8:23-25 and Daniel 12:7.

    In conclusion, a careful study of THE TIME APPOINTED will lead you to Habakkuk 1 & 2 which will outline the events to occur in the time of the GREAT TRIBULATION. And in Hab 2:2-3 we see again that term "TIME APPOINTED" were we see all those who read that book should RUN!

    And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    In Matthew 24:15-22, Jesus explains about an Abomination of Desolation (AoD) which is directly followed by Judaea Running away. They are warned to Run because of an imminent threat event called the GREAT TRIBULATION. And of this Tribulation specifically, we are told "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.". So in simple form, we see a AoD, then a Great Distres unlike any other, and a Running away from Judaea.

    Now lets look at Daniel 11 & 12 for a moment.

    Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Lets focus on the event here of " a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time". I hope you can see the direct link to what Jesus said here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." THIS IS CLEARLY THE SAME TIME.

    So now, we can, without a doubt link Matt 24:21 in TIME to Daniel 12:1. With this easily obtained knowledge, I can now place the the entirety of Daniel 12:1-5 into the Narrative of Matt 24:3-51. But what I want you to see is this:

    Daniel 12:1 "And at that time". WHAT TIME? Now, being a good scholar of the Word of God, I am well aware that when Daniel was written, there were not chapters and verses. Chapter 11 of Daniel continues without pause into Chapter 12. So now all I must do is back up to see what "THAT TIME" is refraining. Common sense would dictate that I read the previous Chapter to assess what time the Text is referring to.

    So, as I read Daniel 11, I suddenly come across the Abomination of Desolation. That's interesting, as now I have another comparison to Matt 24... Lets compare:

    Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Well looky there... Jesus even reminded us to look back into Daniel to find His refrance of the AoD. Lets see if it happens in Daniel 11 too:

    Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    Interesting... But lets dig a little deeper... We were looking for a "AT THAT TIME" from Daniel 12:1, weren't we? We are looking for AN APPOINTED TIME that is assigned as "THAT TIME" in Daniel 12:1. I'll cut to the chase...

    Daniel 11:27 And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed. Pay special attention to this highlighted phrase.

    Daniel 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. -

    He that has ears let him hear. Now look at WHEN the VILE MAN from Daniel 11:21 causes the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. That moment is APPOINTED.

    Now there is another place that could align with the Statement "AT THAT TIME" in Daniel 12:1 too. Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

    Here is discernment: Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Notice in Daniel 11:27, the appointed time is the END, yet in Daniel 11:35, the time appointed is "The time of the End". Both are correct and cover a small amount of time.

    Clearly, Daniel 12:1 links Michael standing up to the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:21, which then links Daniel 12:1 to Daniel 11:31. This can be further confirmed by the actions that occur after Daniel 11:31 which match GREAT TRIBULATION of Saints. A massive wipe out of Holy People as also accounted for in Daniel 8:23-25 and Daniel 12:7.

    In conclusion, a careful study of THE TIME APPOINTED will lead you to Habakkuk 1 & 2 which will outline the events to occur in the time of the GREAT TRIBULATION. And in Hab 2:2-3 we see again that term "TIME APPOINTED" were we see all those who read that book should RUN!

    And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
    I think you and I may be on the same page here. I may have to read the OP again to be sure. Still early here so not entirely focused yet.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    In Matthew 24:15-22, Jesus explains about an Abomination of Desolation (AoD) which is directly followed by Judaea Running away. They are warned to Run because of an imminent threat event called the GREAT TRIBULATION. And of this Tribulation specifically, we are told "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.". So in simple form, we see a AoD, then a Great Distres unlike any other, and a Running away from Judaea.

    Now lets look at Daniel 11 & 12 for a moment.

    Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Lets focus on the event here of " a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time". I hope you can see the direct link to what Jesus said here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." THIS IS CLEARLY THE SAME TIME.
    Nope, CLEARLY for me NOT the SAME time.
    It is 100% linked, but it is NOT the SAME, just as Matthew 24 AoD is NOT the AoD of Dan 8 or 11.
    The KEY difference is that Dan 12:1 specifies it is the worst tribulation ever UNTIL that time. Notice it is NOT beyond that time.
    In Matt 24 though it is the worst tribulation ever UNTIL that time AND beyond that time.
    Matt 24 AoD will be worse than the Dan 8 / Dan 11 AoD.
    So the one in the future will be like the one in the past ONLY worse.

    You CORRECTLY noted that Dan 12:1 speaks of AT THAT TIME, which therefore corresponds to Dan 11:31 AT the APPOINTED TIME.
    This is the Time at the End.

    Where you go wrong is to then assume that the Time at the End means a future End Time when Jesus returns.
    CONTEXT is crucial. We have been given a detailed chronology.
    Dan 11:31 occurs with A4E.
    This is about the Time of the End of the Greek rule over Israel. They gain independence from this.
    Dan 8 also clarifies:
    Dan 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.
    Notice the SAME language as Dan 11?!

    Dan 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
    Dan 8:21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
    Dan 8:22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.
    Dan 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

    You see Dan 8 is COMPLETELY fulfilled. It was fulfilled as the angel explained AT the latter End of their kingdom.
    Whose kingdom?
    Well verse 21 tells you - the kingdom of Greece.
    Verse 22 speaks of the 4 Greek kingdoms which then arise.

    Some try to claim this prophecy is also future. It isn't. It is about the End of the Greek kingdoms rule over Israel.
    After A4E they were independent.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    In Matthew 24:15-22, Jesus explains about an Abomination of Desolation (AoD) which is directly followed by Judaea Running away. They are warned to Run because of an imminent threat event called the GREAT TRIBULATION. And of this Tribulation specifically, we are told "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.". So in simple form, we see a AoD, then a Great Distres unlike any other, and a Running away from Judaea.

    Now lets look at Daniel 11 & 12 for a moment.

    ....

    Well done! I will have to look at Habakuk a little closer now.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope, CLEARLY for me NOT the SAME time.
    It is 100% linked, but it is NOT the SAME, just as Matthew 24 AoD is NOT the AoD of Dan 8 or 11.
    The KEY difference is that Dan 12:1 specifies it is the worst tribulation ever UNTIL that time. Notice it is NOT beyond that time.
    In Matt 24 though it is the worst tribulation ever UNTIL that time AND beyond that time.
    Matt 24 AoD will be worse than the Dan 8 / Dan 11 AoD.
    So the one in the future will be like the one in the past ONLY worse.

    You CORRECTLY noted that Dan 12:1 speaks of AT THAT TIME, which therefore corresponds to Dan 11:31 AT the APPOINTED TIME.
    This is the Time at the End.

    Where you go wrong is to then assume that the Time at the End means a future End Time when Jesus returns.
    CONTEXT is crucial. We have been given a detailed chronology.
    Dan 11:31 occurs with A4E.
    This is about the Time of the End of the Greek rule over Israel. They gain independence from this.
    Dan 8 also clarifies:
    Dan 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.
    Notice the SAME language as Dan 11?!

    Dan 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
    Dan 8:21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
    Dan 8:22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.
    Dan 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

    You see Dan 8 is COMPLETELY fulfilled. It was fulfilled as the angel explained AT the latter End of their kingdom.
    Whose kingdom?
    Well verse 21 tells you - the kingdom of Greece.
    Verse 22 speaks of the 4 Greek kingdoms which then arise.

    Some try to claim this prophecy is also future. It isn't. It is about the End of the Greek kingdoms rule over Israel.
    After A4E they were independent.
    Your implying that the resurrection of Daniel 12:1 already happened. That Resurrection is linked to the FUTURE tat Jesus spoke of tying the AoD of Daniel 11:31 to His Prophecy. That resurrection has not yet happened.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Your implying that the resurrection of Daniel 12:1 already happened. That Resurrection is linked to the FUTURE tat Jesus spoke of tying the AoD of Daniel 11:31 to His Prophecy. That resurrection has not yet happened.
    Nope I am not implying the resurrection of Daniel 12:2 has already happened.
    The resurrection is indeed 100% in the FUTURE. The error you are making is claiming that what occurred AT THAT TIME, which is speaking about the events described in Dan 11 which are ALL in the past, with what is yet to happen AS IF it occurs at the same time. It doesn't!
    The simple statements made in that passage has Dan 12:1 linked to those of Dan 11, like verse 27 and verse 40 - they ALL occur at the appointed time, AT THAT TIME.
    Dan 12:2 however is NOT stated as occurring AT THAT TIME. Even IF we put Dan 11:40 into the future, verse 2 is even then AFTER that time.
    The resurrection does NOT occur at the same time as the AoD but after the AoD has occurred.
    What Dan 12:2 states is that what you do when the AoD is seen and how you respond will have value for eternity. IOW it will be a time of tribulation and difficult, but if you are wise and keep with God then He will reward you accordingly.
    This was a truth for the Jews, and is a truth for us all.
    So as that AoD occurred and that time of trouble came, so their response will be seen when the resurrection occurs.
    When a future AoD occurs and a time of trouble with it, so the same will be true.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope I am not implying the resurrection of Daniel 12:2 has already happened.
    The resurrection is indeed 100% in the FUTURE. The error you are making is claiming that what occurred AT THAT TIME, which is speaking about the events described in Dan 11 which are ALL in the past, with what is yet to happen AS IF it occurs at the same time. It doesn't!
    The simple statements made in that passage has Dan 12:1 linked to those of Dan 11, like verse 27 and verse 40 - they ALL occur at the appointed time, AT THAT TIME.
    Dan 12:2 however is NOT stated as occurring AT THAT TIME. Even IF we put Dan 11:40 into the future, verse 2 is even then AFTER that time.
    The resurrection does NOT occur at the same time as the AoD but after the AoD has occurred.
    What Dan 12:2 states is that what you do when the AoD is seen and how you respond will have value for eternity. IOW it will be a time of tribulation and difficult, but if you are wise and keep with God then He will reward you accordingly.
    This was a truth for the Jews, and is a truth for us all.
    So as that AoD occurred and that time of trouble came, so their response will be seen when the resurrection occurs.
    When a future AoD occurs and a time of trouble with it, so the same will be true.

    ForHisglory, You said “Dan 12:1 speaks of AT THAT TIME, which therefore corresponds to Dan 11:31 AT the APPOINTED TIME. This is the Time at the End.” in Post #3. This is good.

    Dan 11: 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


    So we can agree that the ‘Time of Trouble’ in Daniel 12:1 is exactly the event unfolding at Daniel 11:31-35, right? So then I would guess that Michael the Arch Angels stands up “at that time of trouble”, or better said, at its beginning or around that time.



    So then according to your post in #6, you would agree with me that “At That Time”, ‘thy people [specifically pointing to Daniel’s people- that is the people of Israel] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.’ So you would agree that Israel was/is saved “At that time”, and according to a special book written in heaven, right?



    (I am setting aside any setting in time, but rather just putting forth terms to agree on here.)

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    I'm hoping many here already know my position, but I'll reiterate briefly here. Daniel 11 ends with a reference to Antiochus 4. It is after this time that a time of Great Distress for the Jewish People takes place, leading up to the resurrection of judgment. We know now that resurrection takes place in 2 phases, 1 at the beginning of the Millennium and the other at the end of the Millennium. But the point is, Daniel was showing that the Jewish People would enter into an uncertain time following the reign of Antiochus 4.

    We know from history that the time of Great Distress for the Jewish People began in the time of the ancient Romans, who destroyed the temple and Jerusalem. This was, I believe, the AoD of 66-70 AD, just as Antiochus 4 had been an AoD more than a century earlier. This was a challenge by pagan armies against God in His temple. That's what the AoD was, an attempt by pagan armies to destroy God's people and to slight God's place in His holy temple.

    The Great Distress of the Jewish People is the greatest tribulation for the Jews in history only because it is the *longest-lasting* tribulation in Jewish history. It lasts the entire period of the NT era. I know few will accept this. But it's what I believe the Scriptures say. All of the references to "at that time" are references to individual events, and not necessarily linked to a single event. Now this, then this, and then that. They are different times appointed by God for certain specific events to take place.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    ForHisglory, You said “Dan 12:1 speaks of AT THAT TIME, which therefore corresponds to Dan 11:31 AT the APPOINTED TIME. This is the Time at the End.” in Post #3. This is good.

    Dan 11: 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    So we can agree that the ‘Time of Trouble’ in Daniel 12:1 is exactly the event unfolding at Daniel 11:31-35, right? So then I would guess that Michael the Arch Angels stands up “at that time of trouble”, or better said, at its beginning or around that time.

    So then according to your post in #6, you would agree with me that “At That Time”, ‘thy people [specifically pointing to Daniel’s people- that is the people of Israel] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.’ So you would agree that Israel was/is saved “At that time”, and according to a special book written in heaven, right?

    (I am setting aside any setting in time, but rather just putting forth terms to agree on here.)
    Yes the deliverance happened AT THAT TIME.
    This is EXACTLY what happened.

    I am not confusing deliverance with Resurrection, which is what many seem to do.
    Deliverance means that the time of tribulation which they have been in comes to an end.
    This tribulation ends 1290 days AFTER the AoD was set up in 168 BC which is 164 BC.
    From that time they were no longer under tribulation. They still had issues to deal with etc, but the tribulation was ended.
    Then 1335 days after the AoD, also in 164 BC is when A4E, the one who had caused the tribulation was dead.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes the deliverance happened AT THAT TIME.
    This is EXACTLY what happened.

    I am not confusing deliverance with Resurrection, which is what many seem to do.
    Deliverance means that the time of tribulation which they have been in comes to an end.
    This tribulation ends 1290 days AFTER the AoD was set up in 168 BC which is 164 BC.
    From that time they were no longer under tribulation. They still had issues to deal with etc, but the tribulation was ended.
    Then 1335 days after the AoD, also in 164 BC is when A4E, the one who had caused the tribulation was dead.
    OK, so now, lets bring Matt 24 back into this...

    You clearly separate the following as two different events"

    Daniel 12:1... and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


    To me, the only reasoning you have NOT to compare these two events as the same is because Daniel 12:1 does not say "nor ever shall be". This is a VERY weak argument. Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 contain so much of Daniel 12:1&2 that is is PLAIN Jesus was talking about these verses when He spoke of His return. And you even agree that the resurrection WILL happen in the Future.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    OK, so now, lets bring Matt 24 back into this...

    You clearly separate the following as two different events"

    Daniel 12:1... and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


    To me, the only reasoning you have NOT to compare these two events as the same is because Daniel 12:1 does not say "nor ever shall be". This is a VERY weak argument. Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 contain so much of Daniel 12:1&2 that is is PLAIN Jesus was talking about these verses when He spoke of His return. And you even agree that the resurrection WILL happen in the Future.
    It is NOT a weak argument at all.
    It is stated as being LIMITED to UNTIL that time.
    Why LIMIT it, where the other is not only unlimited but actually stated as such.

    Further CONTEXTUALLY Dan 12:1 is AT THAT TIME which is connected with Dan 11:29 - 11:45.
    So IF you make ALL of Dan 11:29 - 45 be in the future THEN it is the SAME as Matt 24:21.

    IOW there is not just one reason, but at least two.
    There is also a THIRD reason, which is related to the AoD.
    There is a period in Revelation of the beast's rule which is 42 months. At the END of which Jesus has returned.
    Now most have the 42 months equal to the 1260 days. Personally I see it as a few days longer, but I accept the basic premise.
    Now in Dan 12 it speaks of 1290 days AND 1335 days BOTH of which START with the AoD. Now most agree that the START of the 42 months of the beast is also the time of the AoD as stated in Matt 24:15. Therefore you have an overrun of at least 45 days, and more like 75 days which CANNOT be reconciled.

    I like to play with numbers and I have not found a way, and no one else has come up with one WITHOUT changing the START time.
    IOW they start the 1290 days and 1335 days to a period BEFORE the AoD is placed OR BEFORE the beast starts his rule, contrary to what is plainly stated:
    Dan 12:11* And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.*
    Dan 12:12* Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.

    The OD speaks of a desolation of Jerusalem and therefore they will be alike.
    Luke 21 speaks of a DIFFERENT desolation to that stated in Matt 24.
    So there are similarities and Jesus even highlights this by drawing our attention to Daniel.
    Jesus was NOT speaking of Dan 12:1 as this was the period of time of A4E, which is also in Dan 11:31 and in Dan 8.
    However Jesus was speaking of Dan 7 and Dan 9:26 which Luke records and Dan 9:27 which Matthew records.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is NOT a weak argument at all.
    It is stated as being LIMITED to UNTIL that time.
    Why LIMIT it, where the other is not only unlimited but actually stated as such.
    The reason Daniel was not shown about "nor shall ever be" is because the Daniel Prophecies of Chapter 10-12 do not go any further past 1335 days past the AOD. Matt 24 does not have an end date, and then can proceed all the way through the 1000 years and into eternity. That is why Jesus Spoke of "nor shall ever be" and the Lord speaking to Daniel did not mention it.

    Jesus (As the Word of God, an Angel of the Lord) told Daniel what would happen in the End. Then Jesus told His Disciples the same thing. He just elaborated differently because of the context and questions raised in each case.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Further CONTEXTUALLY Dan 12:1 is AT THAT TIME which is connected with Dan 11:29 - 11:45.
    So IF you make ALL of Dan 11:29 - 45 be in the future THEN it is the SAME as Matt 24:21.

    IOW there is not just one reason, but at least two.
    There is also a THIRD reason, which is related to the AoD.
    There is a period in Revelation of the beast's rule which is 42 months. At the END of which Jesus has returned.
    Now most have the 42 months equal to the 1260 days. Personally I see it as a few days longer, but I accept the basic premise.
    Now in Dan 12 it speaks of 1290 days AND 1335 days BOTH of which START with the AoD. Now most agree that the START of the 42 months of the beast is also the time of the AoD as stated in Matt 24:15. Therefore you have an overrun of at least 45 days, and more like 75 days which CANNOT be reconciled.

    I like to play with numbers and I have not found a way, and no one else has come up with one WITHOUT changing the START time.
    IOW they start the 1290 days and 1335 days to a period BEFORE the AoD is placed OR BEFORE the beast starts his rule, contrary to what is plainly stated:
    Dan 12:11* And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.*
    Dan 12:12* Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
    (BTW, that 1335 date can be pinpointed to here: Rev 20:6)

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. This speaks of ONLY those of the seed of ISRAEL (The Woman), not Gentiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The OD speaks of a desolation of Jerusalem and therefore they will be alike.
    Luke 21 speaks of a DIFFERENT desolation to that stated in Matt 24.
    False. Clearly the SAME exact conversation was being remembered when Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote there perspective views on the discussion on the mount of Olives. Each remembered information that was specific to their perspective at that time. The recorded it, showing personality and amazing parallelism in Christ Jesus. This idea of yours needs to be banished from your vocabulary post haste.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    The reason Daniel was not shown about "nor shall ever be" is because the Daniel Prophecies of Chapter 10-12 do not go any further past 1335 days past the AOD. Matt 24 does not have an end date, and then can proceed all the way through the 1000 years and into eternity. That is why Jesus Spoke of "nor shall ever be" and the Lord speaking to Daniel did not mention it.
    Actually Matt 24 does HAVE an end date.
    You are saying that Dan 12 is the SAME as Matt 24.
    Yet Matt 24 ends the time with the return of Jesus.
    Further Matt 24 has that time as the greatest ever. So Dan 12 could have said the same IF it were true.

    Jesus (As the Word of God, an Angel of the Lord) told Daniel what would happen in the End. Then Jesus told His Disciples the same thing. He just elaborated differently because of the context and questions raised in each case.
    Sorry but there is no 1290 days and 1335 days in the future. Two similar events occurring thousands of years apart.

    (BTW, that 1335 date can be pinpointed to here: Rev 20:6)

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. This speaks of ONLY those of the seed of ISRAEL (The Woman), not Gentiles.
    So many wrong statements here.
    1) It does speak of being blessed. Does that mean any statement about being blessed must be this?
    2) This does NOT speak of the Woman. It speaks of ANYONE who takes part int he first resurrection. Anyone who belongs to Christ takes part as Paul states in 1 Cor 15:23.
    3) We are also told in the prior verses of those who were martyred during the GT will also take part.

    False. Clearly the SAME exact conversation was being remembered when Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote there perspective views on the discussion on the mount of Olives. Each remembered information that was specific to their perspective at that time. The recorded it, showing personality and amazing parallelism in Christ Jesus. This idea of yours needs to be banished from your vocabulary post haste.
    Not false at all.
    Matthew notes things Luke doesn't and Luke notes things Matthew doesn't.
    Luke notes that Jerusalem would be surrounded by an army, and that you are to flee after that. This occurred in 66 AD and the Church then fled AFTER that.
    Luke notes the trampling of Jerusalem UNTIL the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Matthew makes no such record.
    Luke and Matthew have somethings which are the same.
    The SIMPLE FACT is that Luke records some parts of the OD in Luke 17:22 - 37, which are NOT recorded in Luke 21.
    There are TWO different events which are similar which is a desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple at that time.
    There is then a future AoD which will occur shortly before Jesus returns.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually Matt 24 does HAVE an end date.
    You are saying that Dan 12 is the SAME as Matt 24.
    Yet Matt 24 ends the time with the return of Jesus.
    Further Matt 24 has that time as the greatest ever. So Dan 12 could have said the same IF it were true.
    All of these speak of that same time of Trouble/Tribulation. It revolves around the Great persecution of the Nation of Israel and her people. (They are told to run for the hills, remember?) The Woman with 12 stars on her head (12 tribes) is protected out of that nation. 12 Woman represents Israel, but more specifically she represents the 144,000 virgin males of Israel protected from Jacobs trouble. The rest of Israel will be taken captive and again spread throughout the earth and scattered one last time. The 144,000 ARE SAVED OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION through the Seal. And they will be redeemed and saved at the end, but only a remnant when Jesus comes back and sets foot on the Mount of Olives to rent it

    Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

    "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"

    "and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sorry but there is no 1290 days and 1335 days in the future. Two similar events occurring thousands of years apart.
    I'll suppose Jesus will correct the one of us that is wrong once were in Heaven, Bro.


    You are mistaken about the people in Rev 20:6... Let me show you who these are that are resurrected in an event called the "First Resurrection":

    During the 3.5 years/1260 Days of the Woman (LINK TO DANIEL 12:7)

    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    These ARE NOT the Woman, but are Related by BLOOD to the Woman. Next, towards the end of 1260 days, we see this warning given to the World, and SPECIFICALLY for this same seed:

    Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    The Remnant of the Seed of the Woman will not take the Mark of the Beast, and will be beheaded. How do we know that it is speaking of Israel? Because of this statement that is repeated ONLY for this group of people: "keep the commandments of God". That means the LAW. Notice it says GOD, and not Jesus. The commandments of God are the commandments given in the TORAH. Christians are no longer under the Law, YET THIS GROUP still follows them. ISRAEL.

    ONLY the beheaded will be selected to be a part of the event of the "first resurrection". So what happens to their Souls when they are beheaded?

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    Jesus Himself will reap the souls of these Beheaded "SAINTS" up into heaven. And we know this for sure, because we then see this group that was beheaded in Rev 15, in Heaven, right after their souls are reaped up right after they are warned not to take the mark for penalty of eternal death.

    Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    And then once Jesus Returns on the White Horse, and defeats the AC and the Dragon, He will perform the 1st Resurrection.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Brother ForHisglory, ONLY THE BEHEADED will be resurrected in the FIRST RESURRECTION.

    (FIRST) Resurrection simply denotes THE FIRST OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL to be resurrected. The rest of the Dead of Israel will not be resurrected until the New Heaven and the New Earth.

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    Re: Understanding the "Time Appointed" - The Time of the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    All of these speak of that same time of Trouble/Tribulation. It revolves around the Great persecution of the Nation of Israel and her people. (They are told to run for the hills, remember?) The Woman with 12 stars on her head (12 tribes) is protected out of that nation. 12 Woman represents Israel, but more specifically she represents the 144,000 virgin males of Israel protected from Jacobs trouble. The rest of Israel will be taken captive and again spread throughout the earth and scattered one last time. The 144,000 ARE SAVED OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION through the Seal. And they will be redeemed and saved at the end, but only a remnant when Jesus comes back and sets foot on the Mount of Olives to rent it

    Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

    "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"

    "and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:"
    It does NOT revolve around the persecution of Israel.
    Israel has been persecuted for the last 2,000 years and Jerusalem has been trampled.
    The START of the GT is the Day of Jacob's Trouble and it will be the WORST Day in all Jewish history.
    However the good news for the Jews, is that AFTER that Day, those who survive will be nourished in the wilderness by God, they will NO LONGER be the ones persecuted and undergoing persecution.

    Instead the dragon switches his focus onto Christians. The offspring of the woman who bear the testimony of Jesus.

    I'll suppose Jesus will correct the one of us that is wrong once were in Heaven, Bro.
    I am looking forward to the NJ myself - which will be on earth.

    You are mistaken about the people in Rev 20:6... Let me show you who these are that are resurrected in an event called the "First Resurrection":
    During the 3.5 years/1260 Days of the Woman (LINK TO DANIEL 12:7)
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    These ARE NOT the Woman, but are Related by BLOOD to the Woman.
    Incorrect these are NOT those related by BLOOD.
    It is those who are related by faith. It is those who bear the testimony of Jesus. It is about Christians.

    Next, towards the end of 1260 days, we see this warning given to the World, and SPECIFICALLY for this same seed:
    Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    The Remnant of the Seed of the Woman will not take the Mark of the Beast, and will be beheaded. How do we know that it is speaking of Israel? Because of this statement that is repeated ONLY for this group of people: "keep the commandments of God". That means the LAW. Notice it says GOD, and not Jesus. The commandments of God are the commandments given in the TORAH. Christians are no longer under the Law, YET THIS GROUP still follows them. ISRAEL.
    Actually we as Christians are repeatedly told to KEEP GOD's COMMANDMENTS.
    Joh 15:10* If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.*
    Joh 15:11* These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.*
    Joh 15:12* “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.*
    Joh 15:13* Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.*
    Joh 15:14* You are my friends if you do what I command you.

    IF you are a friend of Jesus THEN you will KEEP His commandments.
    What is His commandment? To LOVE one another and to love Him.

    So your claim it is about the Jews is incorrect. We are not to sin simply because we have grace.

    ONLY the beheaded will be selected to be a part of the event of the "first resurrection". So what happens to their Souls when they are beheaded?
    Incorrect. Those who are beheaded are mentioned specifically in Rev 20, but others are stated in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    Jesus Himself will reap the souls of these Beheaded "SAINTS" up into heaven. And we know this for sure, because we then see this group that was beheaded in Rev 15, in Heaven, right after their souls are reaped up right after they are warned not to take the mark for penalty of eternal death.

    Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
    Sorry, but this is a SIGN not an actual event. The same as the Woman in Rev 12 was a SIGN and NOT an actual woman.
    This is to give heart to those who are going through a terrible time of tribulation and especially those DURING the GT.

    Think simple logic for a moment. Are you saying each individual is resurrected and raptured to heaven one by one, or are you saying that this occurs AFTER Jesus returns as Rev 20 shows?
    If the second then it means it is NOT DURING the GT but after that these people are resurrected.

    And then once Jesus Returns on the White Horse, and defeats the AC and the Dragon, He will perform the 1st Resurrection.
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Brother ForHisglory, ONLY THE BEHEADED will be resurrected in the FIRST RESURRECTION.
    (FIRST) Resurrection simply denotes THE FIRST OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL to be resurrected. The rest of the Dead of Israel will not be resurrected until the New Heaven and the New Earth.
    Nope the first resurrection is those beheaded DURING the reign of the AC, and also those who belong to Christ and are resurrected WHEN He comes:
    1Th 4:15* For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.*
    1Th 4:16* For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.*
    1Th 4:17* Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    Notice those who died are joined by those who live and TOGETHER meet Jesus.

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