View Poll Results: Who is the bride?

Voters
11. You may not vote on this poll
  • The church only

    3 27.27%
  • The 144,000 only

    1 9.09%
  • All believers

    7 63.64%
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 58

Thread: Who is the bride?

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,693
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    2nd Corinthians 1:1 and 11:2; "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: ... For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

    I added 1:1 to show who Paul was addressing - "all the saints". All believers are the future Bride of Christ.

    So why then does this cause debate? The answer is TWOFOLD
    1. We have detailed Parables on the Marriage Feast with Guests - BUT NO BRIDE
    2. Ephesians 5:27 says that the Bride (or Wife - for that is the context) will be "presented not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." But even the most self assured Christian has a sneaking suspicion that he/she is NOT without "spot" or "blemish" or "wrinkle". And the Parables of Christ's judgement on His "servants", and especially His "Virgins", shows that many will be discovered to be "unfit" to be His Bride. If the "GUESTS" are found wanting and cast out (Matthew Chapter 22 and 25), what about the Bride?

    A third dilemma occurs in Revelation 19. Here we have the Bride but it again revolves around a "garment". And this "garment" is said to be "the righteousness of the saints" - NOT "the righteousness of Christ". It is said that the Bride "made HERSELF ready" - NOT "she was made ready by Christ". And finally, the word for "marriage" in the Greek does NOT denote the ACT of marriage when TWO become ONE FLESH. The Greek word means " a FEAST" - one of those things where people gather, drink copious amounts of wine, and dance. Finally, it is said that, "... Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." That implies that some where NOT CALLED.

    And then, just to really make the mystery complete, Revelation 19 shows the Bride made ready, FOLLOWED by the Bride, in her white garment leaving heaven to fight Armageddon. Armageddon is at the end of THIS AGE. But when the Millennium is finished, we find the BRIDE "adorned" for her husband, but this is a thousand years later when God purges the old earth and institutes the "renewed" (Gk.) earth.

    Some puzzle - or no?
    Beautiful exegesis. I've often wondered why the NJ is described as the bride of Christ when we know it's not the church. Would you please shed some light?

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,558

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes Israel as a nation Were apart of Gods bride also. However I see the book of revelation also being a divorce certificate issued by God too Israel as she became the harlot God nudged who committed audultrey thus the true church is the bride God marries
    God loves all nations, and reserves a remnant within them all for Himself. So He is willing to covenant together with any nation willing to covenant with Him. Israel did this, and I don't believe God has revoked that covenant. God has also made covenant with many Christian nations, and despite the failure of these nations, I don't believe God has revoked those covenants either.

    In the end God will, of course, excommunicate all those within these nations who were never loyal to Him. However, He will consolidate nations into loyal Christian nations among those nations willing to do this. And this will, I believe, include Israel, who will, when Christ returns, re-submit their nation to God in covenant.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    4,262
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God loves all nations, and reserves a remnant within them all for Himself. So He is willing to covenant together with any nation willing to covenant with Him. Israel did this, and I don't believe God has revoked that covenant. God has also made covenant with many Christian nations, and despite the failure of these nations, I don't believe God has revoked those covenants either.

    In the end God will, of course, excommunicate all those within these nations who were never loyal to Him. However, He will consolidate nations into loyal Christian nations among those nations willing to do this. And this will, I believe, include Israel, who will, when Christ returns, re-submit their nation to God in covenant.
    It’s not about nations anymore as Gods people are indivuals within the nations the proof of that is that many individuals within the so called Christian nations over the last 2000 years didn’t accept Jesus as their saviour

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,889
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't think so. What about this passage then?

    2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    Here, Paul was writing to a Gentile church, the Corinthians, informing them he has betrothed them to Christ. Was Paul mistaken?
    It is an assumption of yours that this is a Gentile church, even in the letter to the Corinthians Pauls says: « For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom », 1 Cor. 1:22 and v. 23 « But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness », so there is no Gentile church in Corinth. Second, Paul never uses the word Bride. In v. 24 he says « But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God ».

    In the verse you quoted the Greek word for « husband » is « aner » and it is mostly translated by « men » 79 times, 75 times for « man » and only 38 times for « husband ». Like I said, the bride is an earthly group, the letter to the Corinthians is not for the earthly group, therefore Paul never mentions the bride.

    The bride does not go to meet the bridegroom, nor in the West, nor in the East, but He comes to her. In the East it was customary for the bride to be led in advance in her future home and that the bridegroom had therefore prepared first. Thus Christ will first take the Bride, who is of Israel, to Canaan, where she will wait for His coming. Particular Zion is the place of her stay, Jer. 3:14, Isa. 62:1, 4. There is no question of a taking up of the Bride. That the Bride is from Israel proves, first of all, John 3:29, where John says: He that hath the bride is the bridegroom. He was the friend of the Bridegroom. And where neither John nor Christ had an assignment to go outside of Israel, I can not see that the Gentile believers will belong to the Bride. Furthermore, it appears that from Mat. 22, the parable of the wedding supper, God had no other guests than from Israel. Does one think that the King's son would take a stranger to be a bride? Then from Isaak's marriage. Eliezer had to go to Abraham's family to take a virgin from his, Abraham, family. The Bride of Christ comes from the Woman of Jehovah. With her alone the Lord has been betrothed, not with a people from the Gentiles. He will bring her in the desert, Hos. 2:14, she will bring forth the Bride for the Bridegroom. There's something else here. One thus places one-sided emphasis on the Bride. Is the Wedding of the Lamb only formed by Groom and Bride. Are there no guests, servants, friend of the Bridegrooms, brethren of the Bridegrooms, acquaintances and friends? Furthermore we read in Rev. 21:9 « ... I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife », the Lamb is only used in connection with Israel. So like I said, the bride is of Israel alone.

    Aristarkos

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    4,334
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Who is the bride?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    The bride does not go to meet the bridegroom, nor in the West, nor in the East, but He comes to her. In the East it was customary for the bride to be led in advance in her future home and that the bridegroom had therefore prepared first. Thus Christ will first take the Bride, who is of Israel, to Canaan, where she will wait for His coming. Particular Zion is the place of her stay, Jer. 3:14, Isa. 62:1, 4.
    Is this what we see here? The bride and bridegroom.

    Rev 14
    14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,558

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Where do the Scriptures say that God has revoked covenants with nations? There is wording like that in Zech 11.10, but I don't think it implies a final revocation of all covenants with nations. On the other hand, God made an eternal covenant with nations here:
    Gen 17.4
    “As for me, this is my
    covenant
    with you: You will be the father of many
    nations."

    And it is confirmed in the NT here:
    Rom 4.
    16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life
    to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    4,262
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Where do the Scriptures say that God has revoked covenants with nations? There is wording like that in Zech 11.10, but I don't think it implies a final revocation of all covenants with nations. On the other hand, God made an eternal covenant with nations here:

    Gen 17.4
    “As for me, this is my
    covenant
    with you: You will be the father of many
    nations."

    And it is confirmed in the NT here:

    Rom 4.
    16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life
    to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
    I see it as Paul states to the ones who followed the law and had the faith of Abraham thus it is individuals not whole nations

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,889
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    Is this what we see here? The bride and bridegroom.

    Rev 14
    14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    You seem to be quite confused, where in the above quote is the bride and bridegroom mentioned? The 144.000 — which are from Israel, 12000 from each tribe (Rev. 7:5 — 8) — are not the bride, that is another assumption. Like I said in an earlier post, the Lamb is only mentioned in connection with Israel and Israel has an earthly calling.

    Aristarkos

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,558

    Re: Who is the bride?

    I believe the "Bride" can refer to an individual or to a corporate group of people. As relates to God, the "Bride" then would be those who live in covenant relationship with God. In the Scriptures, the Bride is a term applied in different contexts. In the OT the "Bride" is attached to Israel, who was God's "Wife," or the corporate group to whom God covenanted Himself under the Law of Moses.

    And yet, in Jesus' day we see that Israel had failed under their covenant with God. And so, Jesus told a parable where "wedding guests" were invited, or where "10 virgins" participated as friends of the Bride. They are not identified strictly as God's People because at this point, under the Old Covenant, Israel had not achieved perfection in the eyes of God. The covenant of Law was failing. The "Bride" had not yet appeared as the nation of Israel, prepared for her "Husband," Christ. (It is interesting that Christ introduced as guests both Jewish "rejects," as well as Gentile proselytes.)

    But Paul makes it clear that the term "Bride" or "Wife" is equally applicable to the Church of all nations, all of which may live in covenant relationship with God. And they may become the true Bride, and not just "friends," because they are joined to God through Christ, who perfects them.

    Even so, not all Christians, not all churches, and not all nations perfect their relationship with Christ, and must be seen to be the true "Bride" and "Wife" of Christ in the resurrection, when their destiny is finally sealed. There is no one "Bride" in the biblical sense, since the term can be applied flexibly to any individual or group living in relationship with God by covenant. But the ultimate perfection of the Bride is seen in the New Jerusalem, when it is clear who follows through with their covenant and is therefore perfected by Christ. Israel and all the nations only achieve this by Christ. And they achieve it only if they succeed in their covenant with Christ.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,164
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The real question is, "When will this Bride be READY"? The Holy Spirit says, in the context of Man and wife, "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish" (Ephesians 5:27). When will the Church be glorious, without spot and without wrinkle? Certainly not at the end of this age.
    Here I disagree with you for two reasons.
    1) Rev 21 states this:
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    This is speaking of when Jesus returns. This is the START of the MK and is happening with the End of this Age.
    2) The Bride is prepared through righteous deeds and through testimony:
    Rev 19:8* it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

    You see here it is NOT that the Bride was ever good enough of herself to be this way, but rather it is what God has granted.
    Rev 12:10* And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.*
    Rev 12:11* And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

    This statement is made at the START of the GT, NOT its end. It is when Satan is cast to earth and is the 3rd woe.

    And this should clarify:
    Eph 5:26* that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,*
    Eph 5:27* so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

    You see this is the work of Jesus, NOT ultimately our work. He cleanses us, He presents us, He grants us, He makes us holy and without blemish, without spot or wrinkle.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,423

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    So does Jer. 3:14 and since Yahweh is Christ I don't understand you objection. When something is written says nothing about the time it is written for.

    Aristarkos
    Just to be sure, we still discuss your posting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Just following up, the biggest mistakes Christians have made is to appropriate the promises made to Israel. The bride is a group from Israel as is clear for whom understands the O.T.:

    Jer. 3:8 « And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also ».

    Jer. 3:14 « Return, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am become your husband unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion ».

    This is about Israel for all to see, when God is reconnecting with Israel, He will be their Husband. This is of course an earthly blessing, to the Gentiles God promised much more.

    Aristarkos
    I argued that the OP refers to the "Bride" of Christ. In the Old Testament the word in Hebrew for "Bride" is different to "Husband", as is the Greek for "Bride" and "Husband" in the New. "Bride" is usually used in the idea or context of "nuptials" or an "espoused" one, while "husband" refers to an already established union. To my knowledge, the only reference to Israel as a BRIDE is in her restoration in Isaiah 61:10. But even there the grammar only indicates that she will be "adorned" LIKE a Bride. It does not say outright that restored Israel IS a Bride. Added to this, the references to God being a "Husband" to Israel are all PAST TENSE. He WAS a husband and HAS given her a bill of divorcement. The "Bride" we discuss is the BRIDE OF CHRIST.

    While it is true that God is "husband" to Israel, the relationship between God and Israel is different to Christ and the Church. Let me show this difference.

    In Ephesians 5:30-32 the relationship between Christ and the Church is that of Adam and Eve. Eve is taken out of Adam and is of the same SUBSTANCE. It reads;

    30 "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
    31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
    32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."


    And because Christ is the Spirit out of which we came in rebirth, 1st Corinthians 6:17 says (in context of sexual union), "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."

    But this is NOT the case with Israel. Israel's relationship with God is one of being His creature. In Isaiah 54:5 it is; "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called." Israel is not the same SUBSTANCE as God. Israel proceeded from God as a creature and did not proceed from His Being. This is perhaps better seen in the matter of Jesus and Adam - both reported to be the "son of God".

    Our Lord Jesus is the Son of God because He proceeds out of the Father. He is of the same substance - DIVINITY. But in our Lord's genealogy, which is traced back to Adam in the gospel of Luke, it reads in Luke 3:38, after a long series of HUMAN and FLESHLY births, "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God". It is at once clear that Adam's "sonship" is different to the sonship of Jesus. Our Lord Jesus' Sonship is by proceeding out of the Father's SUBSTANCE. But Adam's "sonship" is because God was his "Maker". Adam is "flesh and bones", but God is a Spirit (Jn.4:24). Adam's sonship is not even the same as ours. We are sons of God because of FAITH and subsequent rebirth (Jn.1:12-13, 3:15). Adam was "son" because he had his physical origin by God. So also the angels. They are called "sons of God" not because they were born to Him, but, like Adam, they had their origin in Him (Gen.6:2-4; Job.1:6, 2:1, 38:7, etc.)

    Likewise, Israel is YAHWEH's WIFE because she had her origin at the hand of God (by His intervention in the matter of Sarah). But the intervention was not the same as God's intervention in the matter of the Virgin Mary. In Sarah, Abraham's seed still does its work. But in Mary's case God imparts the seed. And in our case He causes a New Man by a Rebirth inside of man's spirit, so imparting the divine life (2nd Pet.1:4)

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,423

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Here I disagree with you for two reasons.
    1) Rev 21 states this:
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    This is speaking of when Jesus returns. This is the START of the MK and is happening with the End of this Age.
    2) The Bride is prepared through righteous deeds and through testimony:
    Rev 19:8* it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

    You see here it is NOT that the Bride was ever good enough of herself to be this way, but rather it is what God has granted.
    Rev 12:10* And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.*
    Rev 12:11* And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

    This statement is made at the START of the GT, NOT its end. It is when Satan is cast to earth and is the 3rd woe.

    And this should clarify:
    Eph 5:26* that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,*
    Eph 5:27* so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

    You see this is the work of Jesus, NOT ultimately our work. He cleanses us, He presents us, He grants us, He makes us holy and without blemish, without spot or wrinkle.
    I see the New Jerusalem coming AFTER the Millennium. The sequence in Revelation 19, 20 and 21 is:
    1. Armageddon up to the end of Chapter 19, the Beast and False Prophet hurled into the Lake of Fire and Saran bound
    2. Chapter 20 gives events of the 1,000 years. It starts with the "First" (in importance) resurrection, and end when Satan is let lose and raises up Gog and Magog to test the Kingdom that has now been in place 1,000 years. Then comes the resurrection of the "rest of the dead" who had not lived until the 1,000 years was over. The white Throne follows this resurrection.
    3. Chapter 21 starts with "And". "And" is a conjunction, so the last thought of Chapter 20 is joined to the first thought of Chapter 21 IN SEQUENCE. Thus, the New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem are ushered in AFTER the Millennium. There are multiple proofs but the main one is that while the Millennium ends with a great Slaughter, on the New Earth there is NO DEATH. This is doubly proved by the fact that in 1st Corinthians 15:23-26 we have the same SEQUENCE. It reads;

    23 "But every man (resurrected) in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

    The SEQUENCE here is;
    1. Christ raised as Firstfruits
    2. 2,000 years later, "those who are His" are raised. That is, the Church and Israel
    3. Then comes the end. What defines "the end" is THREE THINGS: (i) Christ must have reigned a while (1,000 years), (ii) ALL enemies are subdued. That includeds God and Magog. And (iii) death is subdued. As long as ONE man is still dead, death has not been subdued. So the New Eearth wherein is NO DEATH must come after the 1,000 years.


    As to the Bride, I agree that the accomplishment of full sanctification is a COMBINATION of the Holy Spirit working and the man working. But the wording of scripture puts the emphasis on the Bride. In;
    Revelation 19:7 it is; "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
    Revelation 19:8 it is; "And (i) to her was granted (showing a permission, but not an active input) that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is (ii) the righteousness of saints." The word "of" means "proceeding from".
    Revelation 21:2 it is; "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, (i) prepared as a bride (ii) adorned for her husband." The Bridegroom is still coming. It is the bride who does the adorning and preparing - not the Groom (as in 19:7). See also 1 Peter 3:5 where it is the wife's DOING that is called "adorning". "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands."

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,889
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Just to be sure, we still discuss your posting...

    I argued that the OP refers to the "Bride" of Christ. In the Old Testament the word in Hebrew for "Bride" is different to "Husband", as is the Greek for "Bride" and "Husband" in the New. "Bride" is usually used in the idea or context of "nuptials" or an "espoused" one, while "husband" refers to an already established union. To my knowledge, the only reference to Israel as a BRIDE is in her restoration in Isaiah 61:10. But even there the grammar only indicates that she will be "adorned" LIKE a Bride. It does not say outright that restored Israel IS a Bride. Added to this, the references to God being a "Husband" to Israel are all PAST TENSE. He WAS a husband and HAS given her a bill of divorcement. The "Bride" we discuss is the BRIDE OF CHRIST.
    I understand that, but what makes you think someone else is going to be His bride? Both O.T. and N.T. are about Israel except for the later letters of Paul. This is rejected by just about the whole of Christianity, but look how divided that is.

    While it is true that God is "husband" to Israel, the relationship between God and Israel is different to Christ and the Church. Let me show this difference.

    In Ephesians 5:30-32 the relationship between Christ and the Church is that of Adam and Eve. Eve is taken out of Adam and is of the same SUBSTANCE. It reads;

    30 "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
    31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
    32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."


    And because Christ is the Spirit out of which we came in rebirth, 1st Corinthians 6:17 says (in context of sexual union), "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."
    But what has the bride (an earthly group) got to do with the Body of Christ? Nothing. What has this to do with Israel? Nothing as well. You seem to be unaware of the groups God has in His Scripture. I've mentioned them before: Child of God, son of God, adult man of God. This is the road of salvation.

    But this is NOT the case with Israel. Israel's relationship with God is one of being His creature. In Isaiah 54:5 it is; "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called." Israel is not the same SUBSTANCE as God. Israel proceeded from God as a creature and did not proceed from His Being. This is perhaps better seen in the matter of Jesus and Adam - both reported to be the "son of God".

    Our Lord Jesus is the Son of God because He proceeds out of the Father. He is of the same substance - DIVINITY. But in our Lord's genealogy, which is traced back to Adam in the gospel of Luke, it reads in Luke 3:38, after a long series of HUMAN and FLESHLY births, "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God". It is at once clear that Adam's "sonship" is different to the sonship of Jesus. Our Lord Jesus' Sonship is by proceeding out of the Father's SUBSTANCE. But Adam's "sonship" is because God was his "Maker". Adam is "flesh and bones", but God is a Spirit (Jn.4:24). Adam's sonship is not even the same as ours. We are sons of God because of FAITH and subsequent rebirth (Jn.1:12-13, 3:15). Adam was "son" because he had his physical origin by God. So also the angels. They are called "sons of God" not because they were born to Him, but, like Adam, they had their origin in Him (Gen.6:2-4; Job.1:6, 2:1, 38:7, etc.)
    Anybody created directly by God is called a son of God. If we reach that stage — by faith — we become a new creation directly created by God, therefore a son of God. I'm not sure what this has to do with the bride, an earthly group.

    Likewise, Israel is YAHWEH's WIFE because she had her origin at the hand of God (by His intervention in the matter of Sarah). But the intervention was not the same as God's intervention in the matter of the Virgin Mary. In Sarah, Abraham's seed still does its work. But in Mary's case God imparts the seed. And in our case He causes a New Man by a Rebirth inside of man's spirit, so imparting the divine life (2nd Pet.1:4)
    The rebirth or regeneration is what puts one in the « child of God » position, there we can believe that Jesus is the Christ or Messiah (1 John 5:1). This is the gospel preached to Israel by Jesus and the 12. Paul in his first 7 letters tries to educate to sonship, the new creation, which is something completely different.

    The parable of Matthew 22, is explaining it. The King is God, the Son is Christ, for Him the wedding was prepared. A part of Israel that accepts Him as Messiah is the Bride. We do not see this here, however. First in the future the Wedding is held, Rev. 19. The servants go three times, twice to the same people, once, after their destruction and the burning of their city, at the exits of the roads. The guests did not want to come. The announcement of the Wedding had thus already taken place. That was the Eastern custom. Often more than half a year before such a regal wedding was announced. They therefore had plenty of time to prepare. The first invitation was now made by John, the friend of the Bridegroom, by Jesus and his 12 Apostles and the 70 sent. The invited, however, made them wait. When the oxen and fatted beasts are slaughtered and all things are already ready, they are again invited, but they did not want to come. That characterizes Israel in the time of Acts. Then everything was ready from God's side. The Lamb was slain, Acts 3:18, 19, the Wedding could begin. The preparation was over Mat. 3:3; Luke 1:17. But Israel did not value it, it went its own way. It took things lightly, Heb. 2:3. Finally, the signs and wonders and powers of Pentecost had no effect for the good. They stayed in their ordinary farming and trade, see Mat. 13:22 (the thorns). The second invitation made some of them angry. They seized the servants and made their reproach. Think of Peter and John's imprisonment 4:12, to the Apostles reproach, 5:41 to Paul's persecution, Acts 8:3; 9:1. There are even killed. Think of Stephen Acts 7:59, 60, to James Acts 12:2. To speak with another parable: the husbandmen were not worthy of the vineyard.

    What was the King doing now? He became angry and sent His warlords. The murderers were destroyed, their city set on fire. That happened in the year 70. The Romans trampled Israel, set Jerusalem on fire, killed many, and made Israel's national existence impossible in Canaan.

    Between v. 7 and 8 of Mat. 22 lies the present dispensation of the mystery just as it is between the pleasant year of the Lord and the day of the vengeance of our God. The King had to interrupt the wedding party. After all, He must have sent his army, and waged war. How could He then think of keeping a wedding? Then — how long is not revealed and can not yet be seen — He again sends servants and says: The wedding is ready, but the guests were not worthy of it. The wedding therefore remains, God keeps His involvement with Israel. He reconnects the line. The guests of the previous dispensation were not worthy of attendance, nor were the husbandmen the vineyard. But God will give the vineyard to other husbandmen. These are not the Gentiles, because for others it says « Allos » others of the same kind. Israel is thus restored and gets other husbandmen. This is how the Lord connects again, because it still applies to the Kingdom of Heaven from v. 2. And if that there is Israel, it is the same in v. 8 with the new invitation.

    This is the earthly calling to Israel, not to the Gentiles who are blessed with faithful Abraham and are as the stars of Heaven, that is if they have Abraham's faith.

    Aristarkos

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,164
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see the New Jerusalem coming AFTER the Millennium. The sequence in Revelation 19, 20 and 21 is:
    1. Armageddon up to the end of Chapter 19, the Beast and False Prophet hurled into the Lake of Fire and Saran bound
    2. Chapter 20 gives events of the 1,000 years. It starts with the "First" (in importance) resurrection, and end when Satan is let lose and raises up Gog and Magog to test the Kingdom that has now been in place 1,000 years. Then comes the resurrection of the "rest of the dead" who had not lived until the 1,000 years was over. The white Throne follows this resurrection.
    3. Chapter 21 starts with "And". "And" is a conjunction, so the last thought of Chapter 20 is joined to the first thought of Chapter 21 IN SEQUENCE. Thus, the New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem are ushered in AFTER the Millennium. There are multiple proofs but the main one is that while the Millennium ends with a great Slaughter, on the New Earth there is NO DEATH. This is doubly proved by the fact that in 1st Corinthians 15:23-26 we have the same SEQUENCE. It reads;

    23 "But every man (resurrected) in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
    Sorry but your order is wrong.
    Rev 19 and 20 are indeed in chronological order.
    However Rev 21 and 22 gives further details of the Kingdom of God on earth and STARTS with the NHNE which STARTS when Jesus appears.
    Anything else doesn't fit with scripture.
    It is why Amils struggle with the PreMil position as they correctly conclude that the NHNE starts when Jesus returns.
    However a further problem is caused when people see a pristine world when the NHNE starts with the casting of Satan out of heaven.

    As for your reliance on the word "and":
    Rev 21:1* Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. (ESV)
    It can be translated as "then". However its meaning is simply that he saw something fresh which is not necessarily chronological in occurrence just as Rev 12:1 isn't chronological.
    There is indeed a connection between Rev 20 and 21 but it is NOT one of time.
    Further we read this:
    Isa 65:17* For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.*
    Isa 65:18* But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.*
    Isa 65:19* And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.*
    Isa 65:20* There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.*(KJV)

    Please explain WHEN this NHNE occurs? Is it when Jesus returns and is the MK?

    Your claim that there is no death in any of the NE is also incorrect. The statement is actually about the NJ.
    Rev 21:3* And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.*
    Rev 21:4* And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.*

    Do you notice how John uses the same words? What is the tabernacle of God? Sometimes we are simplistic about what we read when it is actually simple.

    The SEQUENCE here is;
    1. Christ raised as Firstfruits
    2. 2,000 years later, "those who are His" are raised. That is, the Church and Israel
    3. Then comes the end. What defines "the end" is THREE THINGS: (i) Christ must have reigned a while (1,000 years), (ii) ALL enemies are subdued. That includeds God and Magog. And (iii) death is subdued. As long as ONE man is still dead, death has not been subdued. So the New Eearth wherein is NO DEATH must come after the 1,000 years.
    I agree with your order, but note the Bride comes when those who are His.
    There is another thread as to whether Israel is raised when Jesus returns.
    There is death in the New Earth, at least for the MK while Satan is bound. It is ONLY after the end of the MK and the Final Judgement that death is ended for the whole NE.

    As to the Bride, I agree that the accomplishment of full sanctification is a COMBINATION of the Holy Spirit working and the man working. But the wording of scripture puts the emphasis on the Bride. In;
    Revelation 19:7 it is; "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
    Revelation 19:8 it is; "And (i) to her was granted (showing a permission, but not an active input) that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is (ii) the righteousness of saints." The word "of" means "proceeding from".
    Revelation 21:2 it is; "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, (i) prepared as a bride (ii) adorned for her husband." The Bridegroom is still coming. It is the bride who does the adorning and preparing - not the Groom (as in 19:7). See also 1 Peter 3:5 where it is the wife's DOING that is called "adorning". "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands."
    No, the emphasis is NOT on the Bride doing works. She has her part, but He has His. You correctly alluded to Ephesians 5:30-32 which harkens back to Genesis 2.
    Yet that whole passage of Ephesians 5 states it is Christ who makes her without spot or wrinkle, without which she has no righteous work.
    What righteous works are there for us to do? Only the work He has prepared for us. IOW we are responding to what He is doing.
    Her righteousness is ONLY possible because of what He does, so there is COMBINATION and He has done His part, and so we have our part to do, being reliant on Him.
    Now these are adornments rather than the cleansing and sanctifying etc.
    These are tied into the parables Jesus gave, but we mustn't confuse being without spot or blemish which He odes with our part or adorning.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,164
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Who is the bride?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I understand that, but what makes you think someone else is going to be His bride? Both O.T. and N.T. are about Israel except for the later letters of Paul. This is rejected by just about the whole of Christianity, but look how divided that is.
    Aristarkos
    Yet this one thing we all agree on you claim is wrong.
    Most of the NT is about the Church.
    The gospels are the most strongly about Israel, but even there it isn't only about Israel.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The Father, His Son, and His Bride
    By Soldier_of_Faith in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Jan 24th 2015, 04:24 PM
  2. Information The Bride
    By Stucky in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Dec 8th 2009, 07:56 AM
  3. Who is the Bride of Christ?
    By ZAB in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 119
    Last Post: Sep 3rd 2009, 01:52 AM
  4. The Heart of the Bride
    By ZAB in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: May 16th 2009, 03:43 AM
  5. For the Bride
    By Dani H in forum Poetry
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Oct 24th 2008, 03:48 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •