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Thread: Consideration of two covenants

  1. #16

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Actually, they say that repetition is the mother of learning. I welcome the exchange.

    I would just like to add that what is difficult to understand for many Christians is why, when our Lord Jesus fulfilled the Law, it will be enforced in Israel again after their restoration in the Millennial Kingdom. The reason is TWOFOLD;
    1. In Romans 9:3-4 Paul talks about his "brethren according to the flesh" ... "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises". Israel were offered grace, and they refused it. They were offered their Messiah and they refused Him. That leaves them STILL UNDER COVENANT. If you and I made a Contract (Covenant) and one of us reneged, the Covenant does not fall away. Its penalties come into full force. So we see Israel, still under Covenant today, suffering all the curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. The restoration of Israel does not annul a Covenant, but the Covenant can be IMPROVED (Heb.8:6). The weakness of the Covenant of Law of Sinai was that it (i) addressed the flesh (Rom.7:25, 8:3), and (ii) it was written OUTSIDE of man on stone tables. The New Covenant has the same content - the Law, but (i) it is written on the hearts of men - inwardly, and (ii) the Israelites will receive new hearts and new spirits (Ezek.11:19, 18:31, 36:26)
    2. While our Lord Jesus fulfilled the Law in every respect, Israel DID NOT. So Matthew 5:17-18 says; "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Here, according to the grammar, there are TWO "fulfillings" of the Law. In verse 17 our Lord promises the fulfill the Law, but in verse 18 He sets forth a TIME (till heaven and earth pass) "till ALL be fulfilled". The first "fulfilling of the Law" was achieved by Christ, BUT ISRAEL DID NOT FULFILL THE LAW. So a TIME is set by which time the Law is to be fulfilled by ALL those under it. Heaven and earth pass at the end of the Millennium, so Israel, restored to their Land, with new hearts and spirits, with a New Covenant, are in the position to fulfill it. Let us show and example:

    In Luke 22:7-16 our Lord Feasted His last Passover. Notice that the animal had to be killed (v.7) and eaten (v.8). Then, after a room is found in which to do this, our Lord Jesus says, in verses 15-16, "... With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." By the "Kingdom of God" we understand that time when God will rule the earth through Jesus - the Millennium. It certainly could not be the Church age for (i) the Gentiles still have their time of rule, and (ii) the Church does not have the Passover to kill and eat. That means that when Christ returns and sets up God's Kingdom on earth, and Israel is restored, the Passover WILL BE KILLED AND EATEN! And concerning this our Lord Jesus says that ONLY THEN will it be FULFILLED. For us Christians, Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover, but Israel have not yet feasted this Passover in a way that fulfilled what it meant. Christ fulfilled the Passover 2,000 years ago, but Israel, under Law in the Millennium, will ONLY fulfill it then. Likewise, Christ has fulfilled the Law, but Israel refused Christ. So this fulfillment does not apply to them. They must wait until the Millennium to fulfill it THEMSELVES.

    In my first posting I quoted Jeremiah 31:27-36. I did this on purpose to include verse 36. It reads; "If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." Israel was given "those ordinances" at Sinai, and broke them. Thus, they ceased being a nation and were dispersed. Now, Jeremiah 31 predicts that the House of Israel (ten northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (two southern Tribes) will be united (as many other prophets predict). And then Israel are given the Law again, but under new and better circumstances. They are written inwardly on the heart and the Israelites are given new hearts and new spirits. It will not happen, but God, in verse 36, threatens that IF "these ordinances" ARE BROKEN under the New Covenant, Israel will cease to be "FOR EVER". The Covenant of Promise, given to Abraham, promises that Israel will get their Land. The Covenant of Law, given at Sinai, is so that Israel can STAY in the Land (Deut.4:23-27, 40, etc.). Israel broke it and adopted the habits of the Canaanites who were thrown out of the Good Land. So they too were thrown out of the Land. The New Covenant of Law will ensure that they are never thrown out of the Land again.

    Go well brother.

    there's a bunch I agree with there....to me though, Israel and gentile are the same, it was always meant to be. Judah and Israel, are a shadow of the Jew and gentile being made one. The ot is a foreshadow, for instance, the Hebrews, were enslaved in the natural.....we learn of the bondage all men are under to sin. God delivered those who were in bondage in the natural in Egypt, he delivered us through Christ from the bondage to sin. He gave them Moses for a mediator....he gave us Christ....he gave them Aaron for a high priest, Jesus is ours. Thier tabernacle was on earth made by mans hands....Jesus is in the true made by God in heaven. They had 12 tribes, we have 12 apostles, ( Paulthe 12 th) they had a brazen serpent to,look upon, we have Jesus up on the cross....they had the law of stone letters, we have the law of the spirit written on our hearts......these are only a few examples.

    what I'm missing is where do we learn the Israelites have a difference at all anymore , im actually totally open to learning things, and am asking if you can explain just the part where we see Israel re doing the mosaic law? Im not getting that because there's no difference in Jew and gentile and the sacrifice of Jesus was eternal. .....who is the true Israel is there a foreshadow of the true Israel?

    I'm thinking of this chapter

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:10-14, 16-18, 21-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    to me the Old Testament Israel, is a shadow of the truth that would come. See up there where Paul talks about the promise to Abraham and his seed? His seed is not Jacob , it's Jesus. If we belong to Jesus, we are the seed of Abraham, that makes us the heirs of God, his children. Note also, the law is a curse upon man, it came because and only because of transgression, all the world was under the law, even gentile because of thier conscience Romans 1-2. if they weren't then all the world isn't held guilty of sin, because sin is the transgression of the law.

    note how the promise we're talking of here, came long before the law ever was given at horeb on Sinai, Paul's explaining the promise to Abraham and his seed, is meant for the purpose of giving the promise tomgentiles and Jew, because there's no difference in Christ all of us Jew or gentile are the seed ofmanraham, because we are Christs.


    I'm just not understanding the part where they need to re do the old things. I've read a few places where I was wondering, but Jeremiah 31, though it's made to,Israel and Judah.......that's us. We are Israel the seed of Abraham in Christ, as well as they anyone who chooses to belong to thier lord Jesus Christ, are the only heirs I see. But again, this is actually meant to delve deeper into what you are saying, I need to understand the part where there's sacrifice for a law that can't give righteousness.

    you said if we have a covenant and I broke it......but what if they defiled and broke it, what if they took the glory of the true God and gave it to idols and sacrificed to false gods, built altars all over Jerusalem until the glory of God finally exits thier temple and goes to the heavenly places....what if God declares a divorce with them?

  2. #17

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Something to think about and perhaps to discuss.

    I do not see Israel of being under any covenant except the new covenant. My reason for saying this is that a covenant was everlasting until death. Now in Jesus being God we had the end of the old in His death on the cross, but we also have the beginning of the new. He said that His blood flowed for the new covenant. I therefore can not agree fully with you saying that Israel is still part of the covenant, except if it is through the new covenant which is by grace and faith.

    who is Israel.....really? Is there like everything else a foreshadow and a fulfillment?

    I see the same as you there's only the old covenant, fulfilled in Christ Jesus , and the new covenant given by Christ Jesus, and set into eternal authority when he shed his blood. When we write a will and testament, we write all we want done with our possessions. Then, a lawyer puts the will into a drawer it has no power to give your things away while you still live, but as soon as you die, nothing can ever change it. It is putt into effect when you die, when the testator of the will dies.

    “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    for where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
    **Hebrews‬ *9:15-17‬ *KJV‬‬


    the reason I bring this part up, is because he says

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
    **Matthew‬ *24:35‬ *KJV‬‬

    and he says

    “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
    **Hebrews‬ *13:8‬ *KJV‬‬

    you can't have a different covenant again after he died, he is eternal, his word, his testament is eternal, and will be the same forever.

    I'm not sure that makes the connection I intended, im not sure though, I've learned to consider things before I reject them unless I know enough about the subject, Israel and gentile are no different anymore. The seed of Abraham are Christians Jew or gentile

  3. #18

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    scripturally you are way out there in left field, "your view or views" are simply your opinion and we all know opinions are like backsides everyone has one. what is to be sot is the Truth which isn't a opinion, its what God says and does in this case.

    the "covenants" that have any meaning to the Almighty is Adam, Noah, Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, David, and Jesus Christ, which is the fulfillment of all before to God's satisfaction that no one could do but Jesus Christ, on purpose. the Maker of man knows man cannot fulfill the covenants, only the only begotten Son of God can.




    one could include the law or ten commandments but they seem to be more important to those who seek fault in others then it does with the Lord God seeing He was able to make covenant with those of His chosen without the law, but the Torah has its place in the list of covenants seeing a nation is a established with it.

    okay thanks for the input and God bless you

  4. #19

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    To me you can only be resurrected in Christ. The old covenant is dead and of no effect today. Do Israel have a king today? Yes. The fact that they do not recognize Him do not make that He is not their king. Pontius Pilate made it clear with the sign on the cross and this King is alive today.
    he's everyone's king whether they know it or not. Amen Christ is the resurrection, the law put us in the grave.

  5. #20

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    All you have written is correct. But WHICH COVENANTS are being compared? The text reads in Galatians 4:24-29;

    24 "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."


    The ALLEGORY of Ishmael and Isaac DO NOT COMPARE THE COVENANT OF HOREB AND THE NEW COVENANT OF JEREMIAH 31! The COMPARE the Covenant of PROMISE made with Abraham and the Covenant of LAW made with Israel.

    God made a Covenant with Abraham that his seed would gain the Land of Canaan. Later, Abraham, through the efforts of his flesh, had Ishmael. This is Abrahan's seed and HEIR APPARENT, Ishmael being the FIRSTBORN. But God refuses the efforts of the flesh for His purposes. So Isaac is born "by the Spirit" because Sarah is barren. And God says in Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7 and Hebrews 11:18, "... for in Isaac shall thy seed be called." This is because in Genesis 17:19 God established WHICH SEED of Abraham's He would make the Covenant of Promise with. (Remember, Abraham was "father of many nations" and only ONE of them was chosen to gain Canaan.) It reads; "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."

    Thus, the Covenant for the GAINING OF THE LAND is made with men who came by the efforts of the SPIRIT. This is the Church. By their BIRTH they inherit the earth. Israel, in bondage to the LAW, which demands the efforts of the FLESH, CANNOT INHERIT. 1st Corinthians 15:50 says; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
    1. Israel refuse Christ and call the Holy Spirit Beelzebub. They remain under Law and in bondage to this Law, just as Ishmael was born in slavery because his mother was a slave
    2. The Church (the Galatians) embrace Christ, are born of the Holy Spirit and are thus, being Christ's (a Seed of Abraham) FREE OF LAW and FREE TO INHERIT THE EARTH (Gal.3:29; Rom.4:13)

    The Book of Galatians is written because some "false brethren" came to their Churches and taught that while one must be born again by the Holy Spirit, they must be matured and made righteous by KEEPING THE LAW. The whole Book CONTRASTS the bondage of the Law and its inability to make one mature (perfected), and the liberty of the Holy Spirit as our maturer (2nd Cor.3:18). Ishmael Typifies the Covenant of Law, but Isaac does NOT TYPIFY the New Covenant. He TYPIFIES the Covenant made with Abraham - that of Promise!

    but what if you just read what Paul wrote without saying it's not true?

    there are only two covenants that apply to the subject, God made different personal covenants many times, he of course makes covenants with people, that's what he does. I think your overthinking this one, but in no way is this an insult or anything, it's pretty plain honestly just by reading the chapter as is, and learning of Isaac and Ishmael. Paul says clearly they represent the two covenants, one given at horeb on Sinai, is of bondage that's Ishmael, born of a slave woman.

    then there is the new covenant, born of promise the one that requires faith, the free woman's son this is Isaac...the promise to Abraham," all people of the earth will be blessed through your seed" Paul is explaining , not me Paul is saying the seed in the promise referred is Christ. It's not complex in my mind, it's sort of straight forward without even me saying a word.

    the bondwomans son was never ever going to share in the inheritance. Paul is referring to when Isaac was come, Sarah made him send her away with Ishmael, if your willing to consider anything else, take a look at what God says about Ishmael and Paul's analogy will make better sense and sort of just be what it is. He made a covenant with Ishmael also, but it was not of the inheritance of Abraham, which means because Christ is Abrahams seed, clearly again there by Paul, that Ishmael the old covenant, cannot share in the inheritance the inheritance is all for Isaac.

    Ishmael is sent away, though he was the Firstborn at Abraham, like the covenant was first, the second born, was a product of Gods word, Ishmael was a product of Sarai's will. Paul makes this analogy not just lightly if you look to the original stories about this, you really really see why he said this stuff.

    the old was never meant to last or share in eternal life, they could have obeyed Moses law perfectly and they could never have had thier sins removed until Jesus came. Because the blood of goats and calves and animals don't have the power to remove sin, they actually are a continual reminder of sin. There's no possibility no matter how someone obeyed Moses, that they can be made alive unto God. Because there's no life for man in the blood of an animal, it's a guilt offering only, there's no atonement power.

    they atoned once a year, the high priest all the rest of the priests, the people.....every year only 1 time one man would go into the holy of Holmes to atone with blood on the mercy seat. Jesus is in heaven at Gods right hand in the true temple in the true Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven when things are all made new. Hebrews says much of the true things in heaven where Jesus serves as our high priest now, even interceding for us. But look really closely at the book of revelation and see of you can see the temple where God is on the throne. Remember the inner things in the temple Moses made? The candlesticks, the shew bread, the table, the tabernacle of testimony, remember the high priest garments ......


    then you may see something that might induce study that would add a just a point to your good understandings....

    the tabernacle on earth, is only a pattern of what's in heaven, that's why God told Moses to be so careful to follow the exact pattern he gave....all this stuff I'm saying is in Hebrews. Then remember how Jesus is at Gods right hand in heaven I'm sure that's not disagreeable. It's repeated many times by different books.

    God bless

  6. #21
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    there's a bunch I agree with there....to me though, Israel and gentile are the same, it was always meant to be. Judah and Israel, are a shadow of the Jew and gentile being made one. The ot is a foreshadow, for instance, the Hebrews, were enslaved in the natural.....we learn of the bondage all men are under to sin. God delivered those who were in bondage in the natural in Egypt, he delivered us through Christ from the bondage to sin. He gave them Moses for a mediator....he gave us Christ....he gave them Aaron for a high priest, Jesus is ours. Thier tabernacle was on earth made by mans hands....Jesus is in the true made by God in heaven. They had 12 tribes, we have 12 apostles, ( Paulthe 12 th) they had a brazen serpent to,look upon, we have Jesus up on the cross....they had the law of stone letters, we have the law of the spirit written on our hearts......these are only a few examples.

    what I'm missing is where do we learn the Israelites have a difference at all anymore , im actually totally open to learning things, and am asking if you can explain just the part where we see Israel re doing the mosaic law? Im not getting that because there's no difference in Jew and gentile and the sacrifice of Jesus was eternal. .....who is the true Israel is there a foreshadow of the true Israel?

    I'm thinking of this chapter

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:10-14, 16-18, 21-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    to me the Old Testament Israel, is a shadow of the truth that would come. See up there where Paul talks about the promise to Abraham and his seed? His seed is not Jacob , it's Jesus. If we belong to Jesus, we are the seed of Abraham, that makes us the heirs of God, his children. Note also, the law is a curse upon man, it came because and only because of transgression, all the world was under the law, even gentile because of thier conscience Romans 1-2. if they weren't then all the world isn't held guilty of sin, because sin is the transgression of the law.

    note how the promise we're talking of here, came long before the law ever was given at horeb on Sinai, Paul's explaining the promise to Abraham and his seed, is meant for the purpose of giving the promise tomgentiles and Jew, because there's no difference in Christ all of us Jew or gentile are the seed ofmanraham, because we are Christs.


    I'm just not understanding the part where they need to re do the old things. I've read a few places where I was wondering, but Jeremiah 31, though it's made to,Israel and Judah.......that's us. We are Israel the seed of Abraham in Christ, as well as they anyone who chooses to belong to thier lord Jesus Christ, are the only heirs I see. But again, this is actually meant to delve deeper into what you are saying, I need to understand the part where there's sacrifice for a law that can't give righteousness.

    you said if we have a covenant and I broke it......but what if they defiled and broke it, what if they took the glory of the true God and gave it to idols and sacrificed to false gods, built altars all over Jerusalem until the glory of God finally exits thier temple and goes to the heavenly places....what if God declares a divorce with them?
    OK. Thanks for your questions and query. I will immediately admit that if you, or anyone, makes Israel and the Church ONE, then you will have the objections you listed. So instead of answering your objections one by one, I will show the proofs that Israel and the Church cannot be the same. And if they are found to be different, then their fate and destiny is different.
    1. From Noah until Babylon the earth had one People and one Language. Then God gave the different languages and man was divided into the NATIONS. They exist until today and are before our eyes. They are the SEED of Noah who "generations" (plural) were perfect making Noah seed of Adam
    2. From Isaac and Jacob onward, God raised a special Nation by intervention upon a barren woman. This was the NATION of Israel. They are SEED of Jacob via Isaac via Abraham to whom the Covenant of Promise was given, but who was told that "IN ISAAC shall they seed be called".
    3. The, our Lord Jesus came teaching AN-OTHER BIRTH - to be SEED of the Holy Spirit. And this People would be, (i) taken from the above TWO (Eph.2:15) - the NATIONS and the NATION of Israel. The word "FROM" means "some of the nations and some of the Israelites. (ii) That they are NEW MAN (Eph.2:15), (iii) a NEW CREATURE (2nd Cor.5:17), (iv) from the Holy Spirit and His "incorruptible seed" (1st Pet.1:23), (v) be a People with NO ETHNICITY (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11), and (vi) ALL things pertaining to their past were obliterated (2nd Cor.5:17).

    Thus, we have THREE peoples on this earth DIVIDED by their BIRTHS, or from which SEED they came from, (i) the Nations, (ii) the Nation of Israel - BOTH SEED of the flesh, and (iii) the Church - SEED of the Holy Spirit. So Paul, in Romans 9:3-4 writes of, "... my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; ... ." He CONTRASTS his brethren "according t the Spirit" to his "brethren according to the FLESH"! ETHNICITY is absolutely VITAL to Israel's future because the Promises and Covenants and Word of God and the prophets are directed at them (Rom.3:2, 9:4). But once a Jew becomes a Christian by the REBIRTH, his ethnicity is moot.

    If the above is correct then The destiny of ...
    1. the NATIONS is one thing. They will occupy their allotted countries and be SUBJECTS in Christ's Millennial Kingdom
    2. Israel is another. They will occupy Canaan with the borders as given in Ezekiel 47. They will have a New Covenant of the Law. The will serve Christ who will dwell in their midst in Jerusalem and be subject to David and the Twelve Apostles (Jer.30:9; Matt.19:28; Lk.22:30)
    3. the Church is yet again another. They will be divided into the WORTHY and the UNWORTHY based on their living and relationship with Christ in this age. The WORTHY will be appointed kings over Gentile cities (Lk.19:17-19). The UNWORTHY will be cast into outer darkness for 1,000 years and undergo further training by chastisement to make them "without spot or wrinkle or blemish" as the bride of Christ. Because the Church came out of Christ Who is heir to Abraham's Promises as "seed" of Abraham (Matt.1:1), the Church automatically becomes HEIR to this Promise as well (Gal.3:29). But the Church is NEVER, for any reason, made partaker of the OTHER COVENANTS (Law, Passover, Sabbath, Davidic, etc.). These were made exclusively to Israel.

    Israel and the NATIONS are CONTRASTED throughout scripture. Israel and the CHURCH are CONTRASTED throughout scripture. What makes them different is their ORIGIN - what SEED they came from. And their DESTINIES are different. That which you made bold in red is valid. But it is not because we were born via a Jew. It becomes valid because we are born OUT OF Christ (like Eve) and thus automatically, and by default, become HEIRS to Abraham's Covenant of Promise.

  7. #22
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    but what if you just read what Paul wrote without saying it's not true?

    there are only two covenants that apply to the subject, God made different personal covenants many times, he of course makes covenants with people, that's what he does. I think your overthinking this one, but in no way is this an insult or anything, it's pretty plain honestly just by reading the chapter as is, and learning of Isaac and Ishmael. Paul says clearly they represent the two covenants, one given at horeb on Sinai, is of bondage that's Ishmael, born of a slave woman.

    then there is the new covenant, born of promise the one that requires faith, the free woman's son this is Isaac...the promise to Abraham," all people of the earth will be blessed through your seed" Paul is explaining , not me Paul is saying the seed in the promise referred is Christ. It's not complex in my mind, it's sort of straight forward without even me saying a word.

    the bondwomans son was never ever going to share in the inheritance. Paul is referring to when Isaac was come, Sarah made him send her away with Ishmael, if your willing to consider anything else, take a look at what God says about Ishmael and Paul's analogy will make better sense and sort of just be what it is. He made a covenant with Ishmael also, but it was not of the inheritance of Abraham, which means because Christ is Abrahams seed, clearly again there by Paul, that Ishmael the old covenant, cannot share in the inheritance the inheritance is all for Isaac.

    Ishmael is sent away, though he was the Firstborn at Abraham, like the covenant was first, the second born, was a product of Gods word, Ishmael was a product of Sarai's will. Paul makes this analogy not just lightly if you look to the original stories about this, you really really see why he said this stuff.

    the old was never meant to last or share in eternal life, they could have obeyed Moses law perfectly and they could never have had thier sins removed until Jesus came. Because the blood of goats and calves and animals don't have the power to remove sin, they actually are a continual reminder of sin. There's no possibility no matter how someone obeyed Moses, that they can be made alive unto God. Because there's no life for man in the blood of an animal, it's a guilt offering only, there's no atonement power.

    they atoned once a year, the high priest all the rest of the priests, the people.....every year only 1 time one man would go into the holy of Holmes to atone with blood on the mercy seat. Jesus is in heaven at Gods right hand in the true temple in the true Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven when things are all made new. Hebrews says much of the true things in heaven where Jesus serves as our high priest now, even interceding for us. But look really closely at the book of revelation and see of you can see the temple where God is on the throne. Remember the inner things in the temple Moses made? The candlesticks, the shew bread, the table, the tabernacle of testimony, remember the high priest garments ......


    then you may see something that might induce study that would add a just a point to your good understandings....

    the tabernacle on earth, is only a pattern of what's in heaven, that's why God told Moses to be so careful to follow the exact pattern he gave....all this stuff I'm saying is in Hebrews. Then remember how Jesus is at Gods right hand in heaven I'm sure that's not disagreeable. It's repeated many times by different books.

    God bless
    OK: I hear you. And no offense is taken even in the most vehement counter arguments.

    You would like to peg the two Covenants alluded to in Galatians to the Covenant of Law of Horeb and the new Covenant of Law of Jeremiah 31:31. Let us examine the text. But first, just for information, let us consider Galatians 3:17. "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." Which two Covenants were given 430 years apart? The answer is easy. That of PROMISE to Abraham, and 430 years later, that of LAW to Israel at Horeb.

    Now, we move to your scripture and its context - Galatians 4:21-28;

    21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
    22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."


    The Galatian Churches had started so well. But now men crept in, from Jerusalem, and said that while the rebirth and eternal life were to be had by faith, sanctification (or perfection) was to be had by keeping the Law of Moses. By the ned of Chapter 3 Paul establishes that the Christian is not under Law but that he IS under Promise.
    • In verse 21 he says to those who wanted to embrace and be subject to the Law of Moses, "let the Law speak for itself"!
    • In verse 22 Abraham had TWO SONS, one born in slavery (for Hagar is a slave and therefore her sons are slaves), and one born by Promise because Sarah was barren
    • In verse 23 TWO WOMEN and their conceptions are brought into view. Abraham thought he would help God and by the power of his and Hagar's FLESH, brought forth Ishmael. But Sarah, a free woman, conceived by intervention of the Holy Spirit seeing as she was barren
    • In verse 24 it says "these THINGS". What things? The manner of CONCEPTION of the TWO SONS. And this manner of conception of the TWO sons is an allegory for TWO COVENANTS. The first is said outright. That SON born in BONDAGE, or "slavery" speaks of the Law given at Sinai
    • In verse 25 this is confirmed. Israel, or Judah, were still under this Law. They had refused their Messiah and were where they were 100, or 500 years before - under the BONDAGE of Law
    • In verse 26 the instruction returns to Sarah. She is the other woman, but she is given a new name - "Jerusalem which is above" and "mother of us all". Before we go to why she is suddenly called this, let us conclude the thought from verse 27 and 28. Sarah received a Promise, and that Promise ended with Isaac. God intervenes in the the barren womna's life and produces Isaac. So Sarah is still in view. And so Isaac, and all his seed after him, are called "children of the PROMISE" and "born in FREEDOM". THIS ALL IS THE OTHER COVENANT SPOKEN OF - THE COVENANT MADE WITH ABRAHAM ABOUT HIS SEED VIA SARAH.

    Now we must return to verse 26 and answer why Sarah is suddenly called "Jerusalem which is above" and "mother of US all"

    Jerusalem: What is Jerusalem?
    It is "city of the great King" (Matt.5:35). That is, it is the PLACE on earth from which universal rule will one day go out. It is a City, part of which is the House of God - the dwelling place of Jehovah ON EARTH. The Place where His Name is. If Israel had kept the Law, and/or embraced their Messiah, rule over the whole earth would have gone out from Jerusalem and God would have dwelt with His People in the Temple. But Jerusalem "which is now" failed to attain to this high standing because the Law, which addresses the flesh, brought Israel down. So the Messiah returns to heaven and Jerusalem, "which now is", brings the logical end to a Law that could not do its job because of the weakness of men's flesh (Rom.8:2). The men of Jerusalem remain in bondage to a Law which, instead of making them a the leading nation, makes them CAPTIVES of all nations and disperse them. The PROMISE to Abraham was that his seed "would possess the gates of his enemies" meaning that they would rule over their enemies. But instead - they are ruled.

    Jerusalem above
    The tragedy of Jerusalem "which now is" is to be overturned in due time. Instead of the Kingdom of Israel, the Lord raises up a Jewish King who will (i) be from heaven, and (ii) bring heavenly rule to the earth. It will be called "the Kingdom of Heaven". Not the Kingdom IN Heaven, but the Kingdom OUT OF Heaven. The King's prayer is "Thy (God's) Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy (God's) will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven" (Matt.6:10). So a "Heavenly Kingdom and a Heavenly House is to replace the ones that now are.

    Mother of us all
    The earthly Jerusalem is populated with ONE seed - Israel. But to Sarah, THREE Seeds are promised.
    1. A SEED (singular) Who would bring the blessings of Abraham to the Gentiles and in Whom all the families of the earth would be blessed
    2. SEED as the sand of the sea shore In Parable, the sea is the nations (e.g. Isa.9:1, 17:12; Ezek.26:3). So which People are a nation which dwell next to the Nations? Israel of course. So from Isaac comes a People like the sand of the sea shore which are born of the flesh.
    3. SEED as the stars of heaven. And which People are NOT of the dust, but heavenly? The Church of course (Heb.3:1). Their BIRTH is not via the flesh BUT FROM ABOVE (Jn.3:3 lit. Gk.)
    4. And who is MOTHER of these ALL? Sarah! Isaac, by the intervention of the Holy Spirit, produces Israel (1st Seed). An Israelite, Mary, by intervention of the Holy Spirit, brings forth Jesus (the SEED - singular). And our Lord Jesus, after having undergone the full experience of a man under law, and after a Substitutionary death for all men, brings forth Seed by the Holy Spirit - the Church. Since Sarah is given ONLY PROMISE, and is a FREE Woman, She is MOTHER of ALL who make up the Heavenly Jerusalem which comes down to earth.

    1. Israel, seed of Promise but of the flesh gets Canaan
    2. Our Lord Jesus, Seed of Sarah bring heavenly rule to the whole earth
    3. The Church, born from above and heavenly in nature, co-rules with Christ AND is God's House

    Where do we find this setup again?
    1. The Olive Tree of Romans Chapter 11. A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). The root is Holy and thus must be Christ. The natural branches are Israel. And the wild branches are the Church
    2. Revelation 12 - a WOMAN from heaven with (i) SEED that keeps God's Commandments and (ii) Seed that has the Testimony of Jesus Christ. They are BOTH seed of a heavenly woman
    3. Revelation 21 - Jerusalem which comes from heaven but has Christ as the Tabernacle, Walls built of Christians and Gates built of Jews

    I have expanded more than I wanted to, and if you are faced with this for the first time, it will take more than one reading to check every statement. But the bottom line is that World Rule and Ownership of the Land or the earth, is by the SEED of Sarah VIA the COVENANT of PROMISE. The Covenant of Sinai was unable to achieve this because of the flesh. The Covenant of Promise is never removed, as we see in Galatians 3:17 above, but that of Sinai - the Law, is replaced by the New Covenant of the same Law.

    The Galatian believers were SEED of Sarah VIA JESUS and thus FREE from the Law as the Law was fulfilled for them by Jesus. The Jews who brought the Law of Moses to the Galatian Believers were STILL IN BONDAGE because they refused the fulfilling of the Law by Jesus and promoted it as the way to sanctification.

  8. #23
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    I agree with the ones who believe there is only one covenant in effect today and forever--the New Covenant of Christ. In the day it was predicted to come, it was described in the context of Israel's failure under the Law. At that time, the Law of Moses was not being suspended or annulled. Rather, it had failed, and Israel had to pass for some time without the Law in its full application. But prophetically, Israel was being called back into relationship with God, if only temporarily under the Law of Moses.

    Ultimately, the New Covenant was fulfilled in Christ, because only he could perfectly apply the Law of God and remain eternally in fellowship with God. Thus, being called back to the Law of God is for men and for Israel a matter of coming to a Law that can work eternally for them. And that is *not* the Law of Moses! It is a Law indeed, but it is fulfilled only in Christ, in the New Covenant. Not even Israel will ever find fulfillment again under the Old Covenant of Law, since this was never designed to be in place permanently. It could not perfect men, but could only temporarily purify them to remain in relationship with God. Ultimately, they would die, and would need something better to assure them of resurrection. That assurance only comes from Christ and from the New Covenant.

    Israel was constantly being told that their obedience was imperfect under the Law. The Law of Moses itself maintained a continuous separation between God and themselves. The Covenant would be reinstituted after the Babylonian Captivity, but it still could not perfect Israel. The only thing that perfects anybody or any nation is the New Covenant of Christ, in which we rely upon him for our righteousness and justification. It is only through him that we achieve our resurrection from the dead. To reinstate the Law of Moses today is wrong and absurd. Christ came to fulfill the Law in a new Law--a Law that enables us to walk in Christ. It is just as true for Israel as it is for the Church today. All nations achieve perfection through Christ alone, and by the Law of God that points to him as our source of righteousness. OT laws are fruitless in this endeavor. We should dispense with any attempt to resurrect its usefulness--especially for Israel, for whom it failed repeatedly.

    The prophecy, by Jeremiah, of the New Covenant is not, I think, a prophecy of *when* the New Covenant of Christ would be initiated. Rather, it is a prophecy of when it will actually take effect for Israel in history, in the eschaton, at Christ's return. I believe this to be a very common error in interpreting this passage, ie Jer 31. It is neither the time in which the New Covenant was 1st initiated by Christ, at the cross, nor was it a claim that the New Covenant would be exclusively applied to the nation of Israel.

    Rather, at the time this prophecy was given, the international Church was still a "mystery," and only Israel had been in covenant with God through the Law of Moses. And so, this prophecy is directed solely to the Hebrew nation, who at that time was exclusively in covenant with God. It is a promise that just as many Gentile nations today have entered into the New covenant with Christ, so in the endtimes Israel will come into a New Covenant relationship with God through Christ, at his Coming.

  9. #24

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree with the ones who believe there is only one covenant in effect today and forever--the New Covenant of Christ. In the day it was predicted to come, it was described in the context of Israel's failure under the Law. At that time, the Law of Moses was not being suspended or annulled. Rather, it had failed, and Israel had to pass for some time without the Law in its full application. But prophetically, Israel was being called back into relationship with God, if only temporarily under the Law of Moses.

    Ultimately, the New Covenant was fulfilled in Christ, because only he could perfectly apply the Law of God and remain eternally in fellowship with God. Thus, being called back to the Law of God is for men and for Israel a matter of coming to a Law that can work eternally for them. And that is *not* the Law of Moses! It is a Law indeed, but it is fulfilled only in Christ, in the New Covenant. Not even Israel will ever find fulfillment again under the Old Covenant of Law, since this was never designed to be in place permanently. It could not perfect men, but could only temporarily purify them to remain in relationship with God. Ultimately, they would die, and would need something better to assure them of resurrection. That assurance only comes from Christ and from the New Covenant.

    Israel was constantly being told that their obedience was imperfect under the Law. The Law of Moses itself maintained a continuous separation between God and themselves. The Covenant would be reinstituted after the Babylonian Captivity, but it still could not perfect Israel. The only thing that perfects anybody or any nation is the New Covenant of Christ, in which we rely upon him for our righteousness and justification. It is only through him that we achieve our resurrection from the dead. To reinstate the Law of Moses today is wrong and absurd. Christ came to fulfill the Law in a new Law--a Law that enables us to walk in Christ. It is just as true for Israel as it is for the Church today. All nations achieve perfection through Christ alone, and by the Law of God that points to him as our source of righteousness. OT laws are fruitless in this endeavor. We should dispense with any attempt to resurrect its usefulness--especially for Israel, for whom it failed repeatedly.

    The prophecy, by Jeremiah, of the New Covenant is not, I think, a prophecy of *when* the New Covenant of Christ would be initiated. Rather, it is a prophecy of when it will actually take effect for Israel in history, in the eschaton, at Christ's return. I believe this to be a very common error in interpreting this passage, ie Jer 31. It is neither the time in which the New Covenant was 1st initiated by Christ, at the cross, nor was it a claim that the New Covenant would be exclusively applied to the nation of Israel.

    Rather, at the time this prophecy was given, the international Church was still a "mystery," and only Israel had been in covenant with God through the Law of Moses. And so, this prophecy is directed solely to the Hebrew nation, who at that time was exclusively in covenant with God. It is a promise that just as many Gentile nations today have entered into the New covenant with Christ, so in the endtimes Israel will come into a New Covenant relationship with God through Christ, at his Coming.
    yeah, honestly I think some overthink what Paul clearly said, it's not as if the first covenant ever could have made anyone holy, or sanctified, that agin can only come through Christ. Sometimes we just need to understand what's there, Paul was speaking everything in clarity, we don't treat his words as if they are mysterious or anything. Paul makes it super clear, many times actually. His ministry was hidden in the ot, that Gentiles were together co heirs with Israel. It's why Paul is talking of the promise made before the law was given ... The promise is that through Abrahams seed, all kind reds and peoples of the earth would be blessed, again, before the law was ever given.

    Paul's mystery ...

    “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:”


    it's really sort of plain, there is only one covenant recognized by God, what happens is when the two are put together, you get the darkened veil that causes blindness

    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,
    was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


    How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

    For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

    And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

    But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
    **2 Corinthians‬ *3:6-9, 11, 13-18‬ *KJV‬‬


    there's only the ministry of death written on stone,.....and the ministry of the spirit, written by the Holy Ghost through the words of the one mediator Jesus Christ. Whether Jew or gentile, black white, there's only 1 way


    *

  10. #25

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK: I hear you. And no offense is taken even in the most vehement counter arguments.

    You would like to peg the two Covenants alluded to in Galatians to the Covenant of Law of Horeb and the new Covenant of Law of Jeremiah 31:31. Let us examine the text. But first, just for information, let us consider Galatians 3:17. "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." Which two Covenants were given 430 years apart? The answer is easy. That of PROMISE to Abraham, and 430 years later, that of LAW to Israel at Horeb.

    Now, we move to your scripture and its context - Galatians 4:21-28;

    21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
    22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."


    The Galatian Churches had started so well. But now men crept in, from Jerusalem, and said that while the rebirth and eternal life were to be had by faith, sanctification (or perfection) was to be had by keeping the Law of Moses. By the ned of Chapter 3 Paul establishes that the Christian is not under Law but that he IS under Promise.
    • In verse 21 he says to those who wanted to embrace and be subject to the Law of Moses, "let the Law speak for itself"!
    • In verse 22 Abraham had TWO SONS, one born in slavery (for Hagar is a slave and therefore her sons are slaves), and one born by Promise because Sarah was barren
    • In verse 23 TWO WOMEN and their conceptions are brought into view. Abraham thought he would help God and by the power of his and Hagar's FLESH, brought forth Ishmael. But Sarah, a free woman, conceived by intervention of the Holy Spirit seeing as she was barren
    • In verse 24 it says "these THINGS". What things? The manner of CONCEPTION of the TWO SONS. And this manner of conception of the TWO sons is an allegory for TWO COVENANTS. The first is said outright. That SON born in BONDAGE, or "slavery" speaks of the Law given at Sinai
    • In verse 25 this is confirmed. Israel, or Judah, were still under this Law. They had refused their Messiah and were where they were 100, or 500 years before - under the BONDAGE of Law
    • In verse 26 the instruction returns to Sarah. She is the other woman, but she is given a new name - "Jerusalem which is above" and "mother of us all". Before we go to why she is suddenly called this, let us conclude the thought from verse 27 and 28. Sarah received a Promise, and that Promise ended with Isaac. God intervenes in the the barren womna's life and produces Isaac. So Sarah is still in view. And so Isaac, and all his seed after him, are called "children of the PROMISE" and "born in FREEDOM". THIS ALL IS THE OTHER COVENANT SPOKEN OF - THE COVENANT MADE WITH ABRAHAM ABOUT HIS SEED VIA SARAH.

    Now we must return to verse 26 and answer why Sarah is suddenly called "Jerusalem which is above" and "mother of US all"

    Jerusalem: What is Jerusalem?
    It is "city of the great King" (Matt.5:35). That is, it is the PLACE on earth from which universal rule will one day go out. It is a City, part of which is the House of God - the dwelling place of Jehovah ON EARTH. The Place where His Name is. If Israel had kept the Law, and/or embraced their Messiah, rule over the whole earth would have gone out from Jerusalem and God would have dwelt with His People in the Temple. But Jerusalem "which is now" failed to attain to this high standing because the Law, which addresses the flesh, brought Israel down. So the Messiah returns to heaven and Jerusalem, "which now is", brings the logical end to a Law that could not do its job because of the weakness of men's flesh (Rom.8:2). The men of Jerusalem remain in bondage to a Law which, instead of making them a the leading nation, makes them CAPTIVES of all nations and disperse them. The PROMISE to Abraham was that his seed "would possess the gates of his enemies" meaning that they would rule over their enemies. But instead - they are ruled.

    Jerusalem above
    The tragedy of Jerusalem "which now is" is to be overturned in due time. Instead of the Kingdom of Israel, the Lord raises up a Jewish King who will (i) be from heaven, and (ii) bring heavenly rule to the earth. It will be called "the Kingdom of Heaven". Not the Kingdom IN Heaven, but the Kingdom OUT OF Heaven. The King's prayer is "Thy (God's) Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy (God's) will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven" (Matt.6:10). So a "Heavenly Kingdom and a Heavenly House is to replace the ones that now are.

    Mother of us all
    The earthly Jerusalem is populated with ONE seed - Israel. But to Sarah, THREE Seeds are promised.
    1. A SEED (singular) Who would bring the blessings of Abraham to the Gentiles and in Whom all the families of the earth would be blessed
    2. SEED as the sand of the sea shore In Parable, the sea is the nations (e.g. Isa.9:1, 17:12; Ezek.26:3). So which People are a nation which dwell next to the Nations? Israel of course. So from Isaac comes a People like the sand of the sea shore which are born of the flesh.
    3. SEED as the stars of heaven. And which People are NOT of the dust, but heavenly? The Church of course (Heb.3:1). Their BIRTH is not via the flesh BUT FROM ABOVE (Jn.3:3 lit. Gk.)
    4. And who is MOTHER of these ALL? Sarah! Isaac, by the intervention of the Holy Spirit, produces Israel (1st Seed). An Israelite, Mary, by intervention of the Holy Spirit, brings forth Jesus (the SEED - singular). And our Lord Jesus, after having undergone the full experience of a man under law, and after a Substitutionary death for all men, brings forth Seed by the Holy Spirit - the Church. Since Sarah is given ONLY PROMISE, and is a FREE Woman, She is MOTHER of ALL who make up the Heavenly Jerusalem which comes down to earth.

    1. Israel, seed of Promise but of the flesh gets Canaan
    2. Our Lord Jesus, Seed of Sarah bring heavenly rule to the whole earth
    3. The Church, born from above and heavenly in nature, co-rules with Christ AND is God's House

    Where do we find this setup again?
    1. The Olive Tree of Romans Chapter 11. A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). The root is Holy and thus must be Christ. The natural branches are Israel. And the wild branches are the Church
    2. Revelation 12 - a WOMAN from heaven with (i) SEED that keeps God's Commandments and (ii) Seed that has the Testimony of Jesus Christ. They are BOTH seed of a heavenly woman
    3. Revelation 21 - Jerusalem which comes from heaven but has Christ as the Tabernacle, Walls built of Christians and Gates built of Jews

    I have expanded more than I wanted to, and if you are faced with this for the first time, it will take more than one reading to check every statement. But the bottom line is that World Rule and Ownership of the Land or the earth, is by the SEED of Sarah VIA the COVENANT of PROMISE. The Covenant of Sinai was unable to achieve this because of the flesh. The Covenant of Promise is never removed, as we see in Galatians 3:17 above, but that of Sinai - the Law, is replaced by the New Covenant of the same Law.

    The Galatian believers were SEED of Sarah VIA JESUS and thus FREE from the Law as the Law was fulfilled for them by Jesus. The Jews who brought the Law of Moses to the Galatian Believers were STILL IN BONDAGE because they refused the fulfilling of the Law by Jesus and promoted it as the way to sanctification.

    I think we're very far apart honestly. Are you one of those who thinks that Jesus gospel was not for the church? I've ran into many people who think that. I honestly don't follow what you are trying to say.

    when Paul talks of the 430 years later when the law was given, it's the gospel that was promised first, the law came because of transgression, and doesn't dis annul the promise made to Abraham. The promise was first, then the law came for transgression.....which led to Christ. There's no way to the father for any man, but through Christ and the gospel. No one kept the law, they learned it trusted it....but it blinded them to the messiah, which the law was proclaiming all along.

    the kingdom of God is the only gospel, whether first preached to Israel, and then sent to the world through his disciples, it was always the plan, no one knew it until Christ came and sent the Holy Spirit. The first covenant, was never for redemption, was meant to bring men down to death, that Christ could give life. It's purpose was to lead the world to Jesus, that's it. When he becomes lord, the old wax etch away, being near vanishing. Those in Christ, are dead to the law, those who reject him will be judged by the law. There's no path to God through the first shadow covenant. It's all about the flesh....

    Paul says plainly there, Isaac and Ishmael represent the two covenants. There's only the one through Moses, and the one through Christ Jesus. Those who hope in the first will never accept the true because the purpose of the first, is to bring us to the truth. It's all it was ever for. I see your pretty convicted and everything, but I'd study Paul a bit, and just take what he is saying in, he's not guessing or seeing a hazy vision, he's speaking revealed truth, or revelation.

    Gentiles were always to be co heirs with Israel, from the promise to Abraham, which came 430 years before the covenant was made with Israel through Moses. The gospel was preached to Abraham, then darkness comes and he's told of the Hebrews deliverance from Egypt. It was always a promise to all people

    “How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
    **Ephesians‬ *3:3-6‬ *KJV‬‬

    let's look at the scripture again just what Paul's saying

    “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:6-9‬ *KJV‬‬

    Who are the children of Abraham? Is it those born of the flesh....or those born of the faith? Again, what's Paul say?

    he continues

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    but that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:10-14‬ *KJV‬‬


    Do you understand what he is saying there? Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, so that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, through faith and receive the promise of the spirit.

    he continues

    “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. ( Moses)

    Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:16-19, 21-29‬ *KJV‬‬



    how can you argue with Paul?

    whether Jew or gentile....there's only the gospel, one rejects one accepts whether Jew or gentile, male or female...doesn't matter who were born to in the flesh......it matters if we're born of God. There's only the one way . But that's just what I believe, I suppose the lord knows better than all of us.


    God bless. I was just wondering if there was scripture explaining things about re keeping the law after Christ comes and established the new covenant, which, I'm not sure if you think he did. But Hebrews just after thier speaking of Jeremiah 31..... Then explains the Holy Spirit we receive through Christ, is the fulfillment of that covenant promise, and that's how his word gets written on our hearts.....through Christ and the gospel. I'm not aware myself of a third covenant or that we're going back to the law that is meant for death....

  11. #26

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Here's where in Hebrews thier explaining that Jeremiah 31 is speaking of the new living way, by the spirit

    “Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:”
    **Hebrews‬ *10:15-24‬ *KJV‬‬


    remember the book of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31 just before this.....that's the covenant that Jesus brought, the new one that's NOT according to the one made at horeb, it's actually written there in it to show the distinction between the two, it says.....they broke the covenant and he regarded them not but promised the new that would be written on the heart.....that's where the Holy Ghost comes into effect, writing the gospel on our hearts and leading us through our conscience.

    “For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish
    away.”
    **Hebrews‬ *8:8-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    then one needs to grasp who is the house of Israel, if not the children of Abraham? And they again are those who belong to Christ, those of faith of the gospel. As taught in Galatians 3.

    honestly people miss that when the first was given at horeb, God already told Moses, they would brake it, and he would turn away from them and send his judgements upon them, even says the book of the law, is for the purpose of witnessing against the people, where as we in Christ have Jesus the word, advocating for us.

    the first covenant at horeb never had a chance here's why.

    “And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

    And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?

    For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *31:16-18, 24-27, 29‬ *KJV‬‬


    we know there is a remnant that would still be saved.....that's those who accept Christ. there's no life to be had in the mosaic law, it condemns and accuses because we're all sinners at some point, were condemned by the law. That's how it leads to Christ....a condemned man calling for mercy, and hope.....he sees the dawning of the messiah, his only hope. Given by God for salvation from where we lead ourselves by law.

  12. #27

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Hebrews says that Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant (Heb. 8:6). That covenant is identified as the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15).

    Hebrews 8:6 WEB But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which on better promises has been given as law.

    Hebrews 9:15 For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Walls, you seem to say that the New Covenant has nothing to do with Christians. Consider that the disciples drank from the cup of the New Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25; John 6:53). This means that Christians like Peter, James, and John are full participants in the New Covenant.

    1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me.”

    John 6:53 Jesus therefore said to them, “Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don’t have life in yourselves.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    Europe
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    I think we're very far apart honestly. Are you one of those who thinks that Jesus gospel was not for the church? I've ran into many people who think that. I honestly don't follow what you are trying to say.

    ....

    whether Jew or gentile....there's only the gospel, one rejects one accepts whether Jew or gentile, male or female...doesn't matter who were born to in the flesh......it matters if we're born of God. There's only the one way . But that's just what I believe, I suppose the lord knows better than all of us.


    God bless. I was just wondering if there was scripture explaining things about re keeping the law after Christ comes and established the new covenant, which, I'm not sure if you think he did. But Hebrews just after thier speaking of Jeremiah 31..... Then explains the Holy Spirit we receive through Christ, is the fulfillment of that covenant promise, and that's how his word gets written on our hearts.....through Christ and the gospel. I'm not aware myself of a third covenant or that we're going back to the law that is meant for death....
    Hi Brother. I know that this is complicated so I'm going to just write a summary about TWO things:
    1. The Covenants
    2. The Peoples of this earth and their relationship with God


    The Covenants:
    A Covenant is an agreement or arrangement between two parties or two persons in which both parties have obligations and both parties face penalties for non-compliance.
    1. The first Covenant between God and man was that made with Noah. God's side was that He would not destroy the earth with water again, and man's side was (i) the death penalty for murder, and (ii) man was not allowed to eat blood
    2. The Second Covenant made by God was that He unilaterally Promised that Abraham's seed would gain and inherit and occupy the Good Land, then called Canaan. Initially it was a Promise because God said He would do it, but Abraham, having no offspring (no seed), asked God for a sign. God then made a "sign" for Abraham. He commanded that ever male seed of Abraham should cut of the flesh of the foreskin - circumcision. If any Israelite broke this Covenant and refused circumcision, he would be counted as having been cast out from among Israel and not inherit the Good Land.
    3. Four hundred and thirty years later, Israel, seed of Abraham, had grown to 2 million people and were on their way to subdue and occupy the Good Land. But on the way God made an additional Covenant. He gave them His Laws concerning honoring God, honoring man and honoring the creature. The reason for this Covenant was that Israel would administer the Good Land God's way, and God's side was that He would protect Israel from their enemies, that He would bless Israel materially, and that Israel would have the right to stay in the Land forever. If Israel broke this Covenant God would not protect them, not bless them, curse them, allow foreigners to rule them and ultimately kick them out of the Good Land.
    4. In Addition to this Covenant of Law, God made some more covenants - the Covenant of the Passover, the Covenant of the Sabbath and the Covenant with king David. I will not take time to go into these as they are not part of our discussion.

    Now, as to the Covenant with Abraham, God obviously did not fulfill it YET. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jacob's sons and all Israelites up until Joshua, did not gain ownership of Canaan. Under Joshua the FIFTH generation entered and occupied the Good Land. About 750 years later, because of Israel's repeated breaking of the Covenant of Law, they were defeated by Assyria and ten Northern Tribes of Israel were carried off into captivity and ultimate dispersion. They are now scattered throughout the earth and have never returned to the Good Land. Then, about 120 years later, the remaining TWO Southern Tribes, Judah and Benjamin, were defeated and carried off into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. 70 years later, God moved the king, now Cyrus of the Medo-Persians to free all Jews and send them back to the Good Land. Only 2½% of the captive Judaeans responded. The other 97.5% volunteered to stay in Babylon and they there and scattered among all nations today.

    The 2.5% that went back formed the State of Israel when our Lord Jesus arrived on earth. The were in crisis. Rome ruled them. Their Governor was an Edomite. They were riddled with sickness, poverty and demon possession - all signs tat the Law continued to be broken. After rejecting and murdering our Lord Jesus, and after 40 years of the gospel, which they mostly rejected, God carried out the final act of the conditions of the Covenant of Law and kicked Judah out of their Land and dispersed them. This was in 70 AD.

    But while the Covenant of Law had been broken and its penalties applied, God was still bound by His Covenant of PROMISE to Abraham. As long as Jews, where ever they were in the world, were being circumcised, God was obliged to give them their Land. Added to this, there were literally millions of Jews - the first generations of Israel, and all those millions born in foreign Lands, who were still under the Covenant of Promise. So God sends prophets to tell Israel that while He is chastising them according to the Covenant of Law, He has not forgotten His Covenant of PROMISE. God predicts that ALL Israel will again occupy and live in the Good Land. But there is a problem. Even if Gid brings Israel back to their Land, what will stop them breaking the Law again and being kicked out forever?

    The answer is that God will MODIFY the Covenant. He does NOT modify the CONDITIONS of the Covenant which is the Law of Moses, BUT He does TWO THINGS THAT WILL ALLOW ISRAEL TO KEEP THE LAW. (i) He gives the Israelites a new spirit and a new heart, and then (ii) He writes those Laws on the heart and mind of the Israelite. This is the New Covenant made with the House of Israel (ten northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (the two southern Tribes). So, the New Covenant;
    • replaces that of SINAI
    • still has the Law as its Content
    • will be instituted when the ten northern Tribes and the two southern Tribes are united and in the Land again
    • is built so that the Israelites will keep it and never be thrown out again

    The Peoples of this earth and their relationship with God:
    • From Adam, via Noah God made the Nations. They are with us today - about 195 of them
    • From Abraham via Isaac, God made another and special Nation - Israel. They are with us today, some still in dispersion and some in Judea
    • From Abraham via Jesus Christ, God made another and New Nation by a birth by the Holy Spirit. They are before our eyes today even if in an apostate state

    • If one of the Nations believes in, and calls on our Lord Jesus, he is NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE NATIONS. He is a New Man and all old things including his ethnicity, are wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). He might still have his national passport, but this does not count in a relationship with God. Also, since he NEVER had the Covenant of Law, he continues WITHOUT the Covenant of Law.
    • If one of the Nation of Israel believes in, and calls on our Lord Jesus, he is NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL. He is a New Man and all old things including his ethnicity, are wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). He might still have an Israeli passport, but this does not count in a relationship with God. Added to this, because his past falls away, HE IS NO LONGER UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW
    • Any other man of Israel who refuses Jesus REMAINS UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW. The Covenant of Law is only REPLACED "in that day" when Israel and Judah are united again. From that day on the Israeli is UNDER THE NEW COVENANT OF LAW.

    So when one studies the Bible, and especially who IS and who ISN'T under Law, and Covenant, one must be very sure who the context is showing.
    1. If the context is taking about the Church, THEY ARE NOT UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW - OLD OR NEW. They ARE under the Covenant of the Rainbow (Noah's Covenant), and by being IN Christ they are under the Covenant of PROMISE made with Abraham
    2. If the context is talking of Israelites, THEY ARE UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW OF SINAI until God restores them ALL to the their Land. THEN they will be under the NEW COVENANT but of the SAME LAW
    3. If the context talks of the Nations, THEY ARE NOT UNDER ANY COVENANT EXCEPT THAT OF NOAH

    Let's hammer it home with an example. Joe Soap is a US citizen. He has a US passport. What covenant is he under? ONLY that of Noah. So he must uphold the death penalty for murder and not eat blood. Joe Soap sympathizes with the Jews, especially after hearing about the Holocaust, and decides to convert to Jewry. He is circumcised and swears allegiance to the Law and eventually emigrates to Israel. What Covenant is he under? ALL OF THEM, from Noah's Covenant to the Davidic, and his blessings and/or cursings come via the Law of Moses - the Covenant of Sinai. But God, seeing the heart of Joe Soap, reveals to him Jesus Christ. In a painful but necessary step, Joe Soap believes in Jesus and calls out His name. He is now a believer of the Church. What Covenant(s) is he under? AS A CHRISTIAN HE IS UNDER NOAH'S COVENANT AND ABRAHAM'S COVENANT. He must deny, refuse, and set aside the Covenant of Law of Sinai. He must stop practicing the Sabbath, he can eat pork and his circumcision now counts for nothing. He is warned by Galatians 5:4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." And when the new Covenant is instituted - WHAT THEN??? THEN - NOTHING!!! He is a new Creature and belongs, in God's eyes, neither to the USA, NOR to Israel, BUT the Church. And the Church is under NEITHER OLD OR NEW COVENANT!

    Take your time to read this. If you want scripture proof of any one thing, just ask.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    207

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hi Brother. I know that this is complicated so I'm going to just write a summary about TWO things:
    1. The Covenants
    2. The Peoples of this earth and their relationship with God


    The Covenants:
    A Covenant is an agreement or arrangement between two parties or two persons in which both parties have obligations and both parties face penalties for non-compliance.
    1. The first Covenant between God and man was that made with Noah. God's side was that He would not destroy the earth with water again, and man's side was (i) the death penalty for murder, and (ii) man was not allowed to eat blood
    2. The Second Covenant made by God was that He unilaterally Promised that Abraham's seed would gain and inherit and occupy the Good Land, then called Canaan. Initially it was a Promise because God said He would do it, but Abraham, having no offspring (no seed), asked God for a sign. God then made a "sign" for Abraham. He commanded that ever male seed of Abraham should cut of the flesh of the foreskin - circumcision. If any Israelite broke this Covenant and refused circumcision, he would be counted as having been cast out from among Israel and not inherit the Good Land.
    3. Four hundred and thirty years later, Israel, seed of Abraham, had grown to 2 million people and were on their way to subdue and occupy the Good Land. But on the way God made an additional Covenant. He gave them His Laws concerning honoring God, honoring man and honoring the creature. The reason for this Covenant was that Israel would administer the Good Land God's way, and God's side was that He would protect Israel from their enemies, that He would bless Israel materially, and that Israel would have the right to stay in the Land forever. If Israel broke this Covenant God would not protect them, not bless them, curse them, allow foreigners to rule them and ultimately kick them out of the Good Land.
    4. In Addition to this Covenant of Law, God made some more covenants - the Covenant of the Passover, the Covenant of the Sabbath and the Covenant with king David. I will not take time to go into these as they are not part of our discussion.

    Now, as to the Covenant with Abraham, God obviously did not fulfill it YET. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jacob's sons and all Israelites up until Joshua, did not gain ownership of Canaan. Under Joshua the FIFTH generation entered and occupied the Good Land. About 750 years later, because of Israel's repeated breaking of the Covenant of Law, they were defeated by Assyria and ten Northern Tribes of Israel were carried off into captivity and ultimate dispersion. They are now scattered throughout the earth and have never returned to the Good Land. Then, about 120 years later, the remaining TWO Southern Tribes, Judah and Benjamin, were defeated and carried off into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. 70 years later, God moved the king, now Cyrus of the Medo-Persians to free all Jews and send them back to the Good Land. Only 2½% of the captive Judaeans responded. The other 97.5% volunteered to stay in Babylon and they there and scattered among all nations today.

    The 2.5% that went back formed the State of Israel when our Lord Jesus arrived on earth. The were in crisis. Rome ruled them. Their Governor was an Edomite. They were riddled with sickness, poverty and demon possession - all signs tat the Law continued to be broken. After rejecting and murdering our Lord Jesus, and after 40 years of the gospel, which they mostly rejected, God carried out the final act of the conditions of the Covenant of Law and kicked Judah out of their Land and dispersed them. This was in 70 AD.

    But while the Covenant of Law had been broken and its penalties applied, God was still bound by His Covenant of PROMISE to Abraham. As long as Jews, where ever they were in the world, were being circumcised, God was obliged to give them their Land. Added to this, there were literally millions of Jews - the first generations of Israel, and all those millions born in foreign Lands, who were still under the Covenant of Promise. So God sends prophets to tell Israel that while He is chastising them according to the Covenant of Law, He has not forgotten His Covenant of PROMISE. God predicts that ALL Israel will again occupy and live in the Good Land. But there is a problem. Even if Gid brings Israel back to their Land, what will stop them breaking the Law again and being kicked out forever?

    The answer is that God will MODIFY the Covenant. He does NOT modify the CONDITIONS of the Covenant which is the Law of Moses, BUT He does TWO THINGS THAT WILL ALLOW ISRAEL TO KEEP THE LAW. (i) He gives the Israelites a new spirit and a new heart, and then (ii) He writes those Laws on the heart and mind of the Israelite. This is the New Covenant made with the House of Israel (ten northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (the two southern Tribes). So, the New Covenant;
    • replaces that of SINAI
    • still has the Law as its Content
    • will be instituted when the ten northern Tribes and the two southern Tribes are united and in the Land again
    • is built so that the Israelites will keep it and never be thrown out again

    The Peoples of this earth and their relationship with God:
    • From Adam, via Noah God made the Nations. They are with us today - about 195 of them
    • From Abraham via Isaac, God made another and special Nation - Israel. They are with us today, some still in dispersion and some in Judea
    • From Abraham via Jesus Christ, God made another and New Nation by a birth by the Holy Spirit. They are before our eyes today even if in an apostate state

    • If one of the Nations believes in, and calls on our Lord Jesus, he is NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE NATIONS. He is a New Man and all old things including his ethnicity, are wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). He might still have his national passport, but this does not count in a relationship with God. Also, since he NEVER had the Covenant of Law, he continues WITHOUT the Covenant of Law.
    • If one of the Nation of Israel believes in, and calls on our Lord Jesus, he is NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL. He is a New Man and all old things including his ethnicity, are wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). He might still have an Israeli passport, but this does not count in a relationship with God. Added to this, because his past falls away, HE IS NO LONGER UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW
    • Any other man of Israel who refuses Jesus REMAINS UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW. The Covenant of Law is only REPLACED "in that day" when Israel and Judah are united again. From that day on the Israeli is UNDER THE NEW COVENANT OF LAW.

    So when one studies the Bible, and especially who IS and who ISN'T under Law, and Covenant, one must be very sure who the context is showing.
    1. If the context is taking about the Church, THEY ARE NOT UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW - OLD OR NEW. They ARE under the Covenant of the Rainbow (Noah's Covenant), and by being IN Christ they are under the Covenant of PROMISE made with Abraham
    2. If the context is talking of Israelites, THEY ARE UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW OF SINAI until God restores them ALL to the their Land. THEN they will be under the NEW COVENANT but of the SAME LAW
    3. If the context talks of the Nations, THEY ARE NOT UNDER ANY COVENANT EXCEPT THAT OF NOAH

    Let's hammer it home with an example. Joe Soap is a US citizen. He has a US passport. What covenant is he under? ONLY that of Noah. So he must uphold the death penalty for murder and not eat blood. Joe Soap sympathizes with the Jews, especially after hearing about the Holocaust, and decides to convert to Jewry. He is circumcised and swears allegiance to the Law and eventually emigrates to Israel. What Covenant is he under? ALL OF THEM, from Noah's Covenant to the Davidic, and his blessings and/or cursings come via the Law of Moses - the Covenant of Sinai. But God, seeing the heart of Joe Soap, reveals to him Jesus Christ. In a painful but necessary step, Joe Soap believes in Jesus and calls out His name. He is now a believer of the Church. What Covenant(s) is he under? AS A CHRISTIAN HE IS UNDER NOAH'S COVENANT AND ABRAHAM'S COVENANT. He must deny, refuse, and set aside the Covenant of Law of Sinai. He must stop practicing the Sabbath, he can eat pork and his circumcision now counts for nothing. He is warned by Galatians 5:4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." And when the new Covenant is instituted - WHAT THEN??? THEN - NOTHING!!! He is a new Creature and belongs, in God's eyes, neither to the USA, NOR to Israel, BUT the Church. And the Church is under NEITHER OLD OR NEW COVENANT!

    Take your time to read this. If you want scripture proof of any one thing, just ask.

    I agree with most everything that you say here. One great point that you make is that the new covenant is not the Abrahamic covenant. I would make the clarification that Galatians 3:17 says that Christ odds the one seed that CONFIRMS the covenant made with Abraham, and that promise will be fulfilled in us in the resurrection. That covenant gives what the covenant of the law could not give... life!

    *[[Gal 3:21]] KJV* Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given LIFE, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    It is clear that the covenant of Abraham preceded the covenant of law by 430 years. In Hebrews, the new covenant [OF LAW] is viewed as the 2nd covenant, of which the first was made at Mt Sinai. Unless one wants to falsely believe that we are the children of Israel, rather than children of Abraham, we are not walking under the new covenant. Heb 9:1 goes so far as to say that the new covenant will involve a worldly sanctuary:

    *[[Heb 9:1]] KJV* Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

    Could you elaborate a little more on the covenant of Noah?

    Blessings
    The PuP

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I agree with most everything that you say here. One great point that you make is that the new covenant is not the Abrahamic covenant. I would make the clarification that Galatians 3:17 says that Christ odds the one seed that CONFIRMS the covenant made with Abraham, and that promise will be fulfilled in us in the resurrection. That covenant gives what the covenant of the law could not give... life!

    *[[Gal 3:21]] KJV* Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given LIFE, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    It is clear that the covenant of Abraham preceded the covenant of law by 430 years. In Hebrews, the new covenant [OF LAW] is viewed as the 2nd covenant, of which the first was made at Mt Sinai. Unless one wants to falsely believe that we are the children of Israel, rather than children of Abraham, we are not walking under the new covenant. Heb 9:1 goes so far as to say that the new covenant will involve a worldly sanctuary:

    *[[Heb 9:1]] KJV* Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

    Could you elaborate a little more on the covenant of Noah?

    Blessings
    The PuP
    From Cain to Noah, man's nature, poisoned by the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of god and Evil, ONLY produced EVIL, and that, CONTINUOUSLY (Gen.6:5). The two sins named by the Holy Spirit are "violence" (Gen.6:11-13) and "angels mating with human women" (Gen.6:4). Both of these sins are special. In the Garden of Eden, Satan had been witness to God's prediction that his head would one day be "overwhelmed" (lit. Heb.) by the "the seed of the woman". So Satan's main thrust among men is TWOFOLD;
    1. Tamper with the seed. If Satan can corrupt the seed of the woman, the Promises seed would not come. When a hybrid is made, it is (i) usually infertile and does not reproduce, and (ii) is not the same character as the original species. So Satan caused his angels to mate with women to corrupt the seed and even end it. That is why Noah found favor with God. Not because he was without sin, but because his "generations were PERFECT" (Ge.6:9). That is, Noah's line went back with interference to Adam and Eve. Noah, his wife and his sons and their wives were not produced by the influence of an angel.
    2. Kill. If Satan can provoke envy, hate and anger, and draw it to the natural conclusion that Cain was drawn to, men could be wiped off the face of the earth. The first killing was because of jealousy. Ask police experts who does the bulk of killings. They will tell you it is usually because the killer does not have something the victim has (money, woman, fame and talent).

    So when Noah exited the Ark he was given human government over the earth. That is, he was to install order. And this order was to put a curb on violence. God advised Adam that if any man killed another man, men must kill the killer. Notice how strict the Law is. It makes no room for accidents. To kill anybody with intent or by accident meant your death. It might seem a brutal Law, but if it was properly enforced, think how careful people would be with everything to do with their neighbor.

    To curb angels mating with woman, God made a Prison under the ground for "spirits" called Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4 - lit Gk.). Angels, used to the glory and freedom of heaven, would be petrified of a dark subterranean prison. However, it did not fully stop this illegal mating for we read in Genesis 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." It seems that at least the sons of Canaan promoted it because Canaan had giants in it (Nu.13:33, etc).

    But God had a third restriction. The vitality of a man is his human spirit (Jas.2:26). But the physical life of a man is in the blood. His blood not only maintains his physical life, but it carries the diseases and the blood type of his offspring, or seed. And, although modern medical science has theories, we Christians who believe God's Word, appreciate that the blood is part of the reproductive system in man. We read in Acts 17:25b-26; "..., seeing he (God) giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation." Thus, not only the DNA of a man, not only genetic qualities, not only diseases, are transmitted by the blood, but the corrupt nature of man is transmitted by the blood. So God forbids the drinking of blood*. This formed the basis for the Covenant of the Rainbow.

    * Immediately, the astute student of scripture will object. Did not our Lord Jesus command us to drink His blood in John 6:53-55? Yes He did! How then can we explain this? It is quite involved and would make this posting very long, so I will try to be brief.
    1. Christ's blood did not come from Adam. Mary was inseminated by the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35). Thus, Christ's blood (i) does not carry the sin-nature of Adam that we all inherit at conception (Rom.5:12), and (ii) according to the immutable Law that God put in place in Genesis 1:11-12, that is, that every species that has seed in itself will produce like itself, Christ's blood would impart the Divine Life. Now, we know that our Lord Jesus squashed the idea of drinking His physical blood because He says in verse 63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." That is, if I am to come and give divine life to you, I will not do it via the flesh. I will do it via the Spirit. This brings us to the next point.
    2. Our Lord Jesus is the Second Person of the Tri-une God. That is, He existed together with and equally with the Father from all eternity. But God is a Spirit, so when our Lord Jesus took human form, it was a NEW thing for the eternal God. And in Christ's human life, His conception, birth, childhood, baptism, ministry, obedience in all things to the Father, death and resurrection, He ADDED the full spectrum of human life to the Godhead. So when we receive the Holy Spirit, we not only receive the divine part and become "partakers of the divine life" (2nd Pet.1:3-4), but the whole human experience of our Lord Jesus is imparted into our spirits. You see, God made us men - not angels. If he wants to do some extraordinary powerful work, He can call on angels. But God wanted us to be men. "Let us make MAN ... ." And the type of MAN that God wants is a man with Christ's attributes. So the divine life of Christ is important, but so is the physical life - the visible behavior of a man IN Christ. Thus, to symbolize this vital aspect of God's plan, Christ said, "... Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you" (John 6:53). God's plan is found in Romans 8:29: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." That is, man must think, feel, decide and act like Jesus, and this can only be achieved if the divine AND physical life are IN the predestinated one.

    Heavy stuff if you are hearing this for the first time. So take time to chew it, file it away and wait for the Holy Spirit to either confirm it or not.

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