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Thread: Consideration of two covenants

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    From Cain to Noah, man's nature, poisoned by the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of god and Evil, ONLY produced EVIL, and that, CONTINUOUSLY (Gen.6:5). The two sins named by the Holy Spirit are "violence" (Gen.6:11-13) and "angels mating with human women" (Gen.6:4). Both of these sins are special. In the Garden of Eden, Satan had been witness to God's prediction that his head would one day be "overwhelmed" (lit. Heb.) by the "the seed of the woman". So Satan's main thrust among men is TWOFOLD;
    1. Tamper with the seed. If Satan can corrupt the seed of the woman, the Promises seed would not come. When a hybrid is made, it is (i) usually infertile and does not reproduce, and (ii) is not the same character as the original species. So Satan caused his angels to mate with women to corrupt the seed and even end it. That is why Noah found favor with God. Not because he was without sin, but because his "generations were PERFECT" (Ge.6:9). That is, Noah's line went back with interference to Adam and Eve. Noah, his wife and his sons and their wives were not produced by the influence of an angel.
    2. Kill. If Satan can provoke envy, hate and anger, and draw it to the natural conclusion that Cain was drawn to, men could be wiped off the face of the earth. The first killing was because of jealousy. Ask police experts who does the bulk of killings. They will tell you it is usually because the killer does not have something the victim has (money, woman, fame and talent).

    So when Noah exited the Ark he was given human government over the earth. That is, he was to install order. And this order was to put a curb on violence. God advised Adam that if any man killed another man, men must kill the killer. Notice how strict the Law is. It makes no room for accidents. To kill anybody with intent or by accident meant your death. It might seem a brutal Law, but if it was properly enforced, think how careful people would be with everything to do with their neighbor.

    To curb angels mating with woman, God made a Prison under the ground for "spirits" called Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4 - lit Gk.). Angels, used to the glory and freedom of heaven, would be petrified of a dark subterranean prison. However, it did not fully stop this illegal mating for we read in Genesis 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." It seems that at least the sons of Canaan promoted it because Canaan had giants in it (Nu.13:33, etc).

    But God had a third restriction. The vitality of a man is his human spirit (Jas.2:26). But the physical life of a man is in the blood. His blood not only maintains his physical life, but it carries the diseases and the blood type of his offspring, or seed. And, although modern medical science has theories, we Christians who believe God's Word, appreciate that the blood is part of the reproductive system in man. We read in Acts 17:25b-26; "..., seeing he (God) giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation." Thus, not only the DNA of a man, not only genetic qualities, not only diseases, are transmitted by the blood, but the corrupt nature of man is transmitted by the blood. So God forbids the drinking of blood*. This formed the basis for the Covenant of the Rainbow.

    * Immediately, the astute student of scripture will object. Did not our Lord Jesus command us to drink His blood in John 6:53-55? Yes He did! How then can we explain this? It is quite involved and would make this posting very long, so I will try to be brief.
    1. Christ's blood did not come from Adam. Mary was inseminated by the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35). Thus, Christ's blood (i) does not carry the sin-nature of Adam that we all inherit at conception (Rom.5:12), and (ii) according to the immutable Law that God put in place in Genesis 1:11-12, that is, that every species that has seed in itself will produce like itself, Christ's blood would impart the Divine Life. Now, we know that our Lord Jesus squashed the idea of drinking His physical blood because He says in verse 63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." That is, if I am to come and give divine life to you, I will not do it via the flesh. I will do it via the Spirit. This brings us to the next point.
    2. Our Lord Jesus is the Second Person of the Tri-une God. That is, He existed together with and equally with the Father from all eternity. But God is a Spirit, so when our Lord Jesus took human form, it was a NEW thing for the eternal God. And in Christ's human life, His conception, birth, childhood, baptism, ministry, obedience in all things to the Father, death and resurrection, He ADDED the full spectrum of human life to the Godhead. So when we receive the Holy Spirit, we not only receive the divine part and become "partakers of the divine life" (2nd Pet.1:3-4), but the whole human experience of our Lord Jesus is imparted into our spirits. You see, God made us men - not angels. If he wants to do some extraordinary powerful work, He can call on angels. But God wanted us to be men. "Let us make MAN ... ." And the type of MAN that God wants is a man with Christ's attributes. So the divine life of Christ is important, but so is the physical life - the visible behavior of a man IN Christ. Thus, to symbolize this vital aspect of God's plan, Christ said, "... Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you" (John 6:53). God's plan is found in Romans 8:29: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." That is, man must think, feel, decide and act like Jesus, and this can only be achieved if the divine AND physical life are IN the predestinated one.

    Heavy stuff if you are hearing this for the first time. So take time to chew it, file it away and wait for the Holy Spirit to either confirm it or not.
    Thank you for your reply.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  2. #32
    Join Date
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    yeah, honestly I think some overthink what Paul clearly said, it's not as if the first covenant ever could have made anyone holy, or sanctified, that agin can only come through Christ. Sometimes we just need to understand what's there, Paul was speaking everything in clarity, we don't treat his words as if they are mysterious or anything. Paul makes it super clear, many times actually. His ministry was hidden in the ot, that Gentiles were together co heirs with Israel. It's why Paul is talking of the promise made before the law was given ... The promise is that through Abrahams seed, all kind reds and peoples of the earth would be blessed, again, before the law was ever given.
    What many don't understand is that the incapacity of the Law to give men eternal life did not render it a worthless instrument. It was a legitimate covenant relationship that it produced, and it clearly worked for a time. It just couldn't work for the *whole nation* over time, since the lawless always appeared to overtake the lawful. This was the demonstration of the incapacity of a nation with respect to removing the lawless among them.

    But the Law was never meant to produce eternal life--only to produce a real relationship between God and the nation until a better covenant could be produced that removed the lawless and gave the lawful eternal life. So the Law was not a failure, but it could neither produce eternal life nor remove the lawless from the nation. In other words, the Law was not a bad thing, regardless of its limitations. It did succeed in keeping the nation together in relationship with God at various times, and it kept Israel's hope alive even at its worst times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977
    Paul's mystery ...

    “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:”
    The key phrase here is "God, who created all things." In other words, God didn't just give Christ a portion of the world, such as the nation Israel. He gave Christ *the whole creation,* including all races and nations on earth. So, the mystery for Paul was that Israel, though apparently chosen alone, was actually just the stepping stone towards reaching out to the whole world for Christ. This had not been apparent under the Law, because by the Law Israel was defined as "the saints," or the "People of God," and the rest of the world were viewed as pagan nations to be avoided at all costs--at least, their *paganism* was to be avoided.

    But the mystery was that paganism would be removed, along with a Law that separated the world into these two divergent groups. Christ would be revealed to the pagan nations, just as God had revealed Himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977
    it's really sort of plain, there is only one covenant recognized by God, what happens is when the two are put together, you get the darkened veil that causes blindness
    Yes, the Law actually produced partiality, racism, and judgmentalism, in the Jews towards the Gentiles. It wasn't, again, that the Law was a bad document. It simply couldn't extinguish, for all time, the corrupting influences that kept the Gentiles from being introduced to the same grace the Jews had experienced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,
    was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


    How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

    For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

    And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

    But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
    **2 Corinthians‬ *3:6-9, 11, 13-18‬ *KJV‬‬
    I think perhaps that the Law could not be unveiled for Israel because the nation was at that time mixed, between believers and unbelievers. Moses actually could see God to some extent. And under the New Covenant all true believers may look, unveiled, at Christ. But the veiling of the Old Covenant meant that it was not yet time to advance the Kingdom from Israel to the rest of the nations, because Christ had to come to separate the sheep from the goats in Israel, sending only the sheep into the world's harvest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977
    there's only the ministry of death written on stone,.....and the ministry of the spirit, written by the Holy Ghost through the words of the one mediator Jesus Christ. Whether Jew or gentile, black white, there's only 1 way
    *
    Clearly, once the New Covenant of Christ had come, there was no going back to the old ways of the Law, to a mixed nation, to a nation not yet with the fulfillment of eternal life, to a Law that had yet to advance its blessings to the rest of the world. Any attempt to return to the Law is an attempt to return to shadows of things that transcended the strictly national laws of Israel. The true message was for the world, once the reality had come. The shadows had to go away.

  3. #33

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Hebrews says that Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant (Heb. 8:6). That covenant is identified as the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15).

    Hebrews 8:6 WEB But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which on better promises has been given as law.

    Hebrews 9:15 For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Walls, you seem to say that the New Covenant has nothing to do with Christians. Consider that the disciples drank from the cup of the New Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25; John 6:53). This means that Christians like Peter, James, and John are full participants in the New Covenant.

    1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me.”

    John 6:53 Jesus therefore said to them, “Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don’t have life in yourselves.
    amen and amen........

  4. #34

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What many don't understand is that the incapacity of the Law to give men eternal life did not render it a worthless instrument. It was a legitimate covenant relationship that it produced, and it clearly worked for a time. It just couldn't work for the *whole nation* over time, since the lawless always appeared to overtake the lawful. This was the demonstration of the incapacity of a nation with respect to removing the lawless among them.

    But the Law was never meant to produce eternal life--only to produce a real relationship between God and the nation until a better covenant could be produced that removed the lawless and gave the lawful eternal life. So the Law was not a failure, but it could neither produce eternal life nor remove the lawless from the nation. In other words, the Law was not a bad thing, regardless of its limitations. It did succeed in keeping the nation together in relationship with God at various times, and it kept Israel's hope alive even at its worst times.



    The key phrase here is "God, who created all things." In other words, God didn't just give Christ a portion of the world, such as the nation Israel. He gave Christ *the whole creation,* including all races and nations on earth. So, the mystery for Paul was that Israel, though apparently chosen alone, was actually just the stepping stone towards reaching out to the whole world for Christ. This had not been apparent under the Law, because by the Law Israel was defined as "the saints," or the "People of God," and the rest of the world were viewed as pagan nations to be avoided at all costs--at least, their *paganism* was to be avoided.

    But the mystery was that paganism would be removed, along with a Law that separated the world into these two divergent groups. Christ would be revealed to the pagan nations, just as God had revealed Himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.



    Yes, the Law actually produced partiality, racism, and judgmentalism, in the Jews towards the Gentiles. It wasn't, again, that the Law was a bad document. It simply couldn't extinguish, for all time, the corrupting influences that kept the Gentiles from being introduced to the same grace the Jews had experienced.



    I think perhaps that the Law could not be unveiled for Israel because the nation was at that time mixed, between believers and unbelievers. Moses actually could see God to some extent. And under the New Covenant all true believers may look, unveiled, at Christ. But the veiling of the Old Covenant meant that it was not yet time to advance the Kingdom from Israel to the rest of the nations, because Christ had to come to separate the sheep from the goats in Israel, sending only the sheep into the world's harvest.



    Clearly, once the New Covenant of Christ had come, there was no going back to the old ways of the Law, to a mixed nation, to a nation not yet with the fulfillment of eternal life, to a Law that had yet to advance its blessings to the rest of the world. Any attempt to return to the Law is an attempt to return to shadows of things that transcended the strictly national laws of Israel. The true message was for the world, once the reality had come. The shadows had to go away.

    agree with everything you wrote, I sort of think this was put to sleep in acts chapter 15 honestly, but many haven't read or let that change thier understanding. I mean the chief apostle Peter, Paul and James. Addressed the very issue of whether keeping the law of Moses is Christian doctrine. And if it isn't, then the first covenant is finished because it is to obey the whole law of Moses.

    And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

    And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

    But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


    peters response Simon Peter the chief apostle of our lord.

    And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    Then barnabus and Paul......Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. And after they had held their peace, .........then James .....James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name......

    Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.”
    **Acts‬ *15:3-14, 19-20‬ *KJV‬‬

    they decide to write the letter to the churches regarding this matter of whether they need circumcision, and to keep the mosaic law.

    “And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

    It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

    For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”
    **Acts‬ *15:23-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    I'm. It sure how a Christian can argue with that. If the law of Moses is not our doctrine then we are in the new covenant, Christs doctrine which doesn't lead to breaking the commandments, but to keeping them from inside so they aren't grievous. We don't need to hear don kill....were born of God, we heal and help by that nature we take on. We don't need to hear don't steal....we give and share and help....by that new heart created through the gospel....we don't need to hear do not commit adultery...we learn to rid our hearts of lust, and adultery is not something we even consider.......the gospel, is written on hearts, what's in our hearts works through our conscience, leading us not against our sinful will, but by the will his words create in us, by faith in who he is and why he came

  5. #35

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hi Brother. I know that this is complicated so I'm going to just write a summary about TWO things:

    1. The Covenants
    2. The Peoples of this earth and their relationship with God


    The Covenants:
    A Covenant is an agreement or arrangement between two parties or two persons in which both parties have obligations and both parties face penalties for non-compliance.
    1. The first Covenant between God and man was that made with Noah. God's side was that He would not destroy the earth with water again, and man's side was (i) the death penalty for murder, and (ii) man was not allowed to eat blood
    2. The Second Covenant made by God was that He unilaterally Promised that Abraham's seed would gain and inherit and occupy the Good Land, then called Canaan. Initially it was a Promise because God said He would do it, but Abraham, having no offspring (no seed), asked God for a sign. God then made a "sign" for Abraham. He commanded that ever male seed of Abraham should cut of the flesh of the foreskin - circumcision. If any Israelite broke this Covenant and refused circumcision, he would be counted as having been cast out from among Israel and not inherit the Good Land.
    3. Four hundred and thirty years later, Israel, seed of Abraham, had grown to 2 million people and were on their way to subdue and occupy the Good Land. But on the way God made an additional Covenant. He gave them His Laws concerning honoring God, honoring man and honoring the creature. The reason for this Covenant was that Israel would administer the Good Land God's way, and God's side was that He would protect Israel from their enemies, that He would bless Israel materially, and that Israel would have the right to stay in the Land forever. If Israel broke this Covenant God would not protect them, not bless them, curse them, allow foreigners to rule them and ultimately kick them out of the Good Land.
    4. In Addition to this Covenant of Law, God made some more covenants - the Covenant of the Passover, the Covenant of the Sabbath and the Covenant with king David. I will not take time to go into these as they are not part of our discussion.

    Now, as to the Covenant with Abraham, God obviously did not fulfill it YET. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jacob's sons and all Israelites up until Joshua, did not gain ownership of Canaan. Under Joshua the FIFTH generation entered and occupied the Good Land. About 750 years later, because of Israel's repeated breaking of the Covenant of Law, they were defeated by Assyria and ten Northern Tribes of Israel were carried off into captivity and ultimate dispersion. They are now scattered throughout the earth and have never returned to the Good Land. Then, about 120 years later, the remaining TWO Southern Tribes, Judah and Benjamin, were defeated and carried off into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. 70 years later, God moved the king, now Cyrus of the Medo-Persians to free all Jews and send them back to the Good Land. Only 2½% of the captive Judaeans responded. The other 97.5% volunteered to stay in Babylon and they there and scattered among all nations today.

    The 2.5% that went back formed the State of Israel when our Lord Jesus arrived on earth. The were in crisis. Rome ruled them. Their Governor was an Edomite. They were riddled with sickness, poverty and demon possession - all signs tat the Law continued to be broken. After rejecting and murdering our Lord Jesus, and after 40 years of the gospel, which they mostly rejected, God carried out the final act of the conditions of the Covenant of Law and kicked Judah out of their Land and dispersed them. This was in 70 AD.

    But while the Covenant of Law had been broken and its penalties applied, God was still bound by His Covenant of PROMISE to Abraham. As long as Jews, where ever they were in the world, were being circumcised, God was obliged to give them their Land. Added to this, there were literally millions of Jews - the first generations of Israel, and all those millions born in foreign Lands, who were still under the Covenant of Promise. So God sends prophets to tell Israel that while He is chastising them according to the Covenant of Law, He has not forgotten His Covenant of PROMISE. God predicts that ALL Israel will again occupy and live in the Good Land. But there is a problem. Even if Gid brings Israel back to their Land, what will stop them breaking the Law again and being kicked out forever?

    The answer is that God will MODIFY the Covenant. He does NOT modify the CONDITIONS of the Covenant which is the Law of Moses, BUT He does TWO THINGS THAT WILL ALLOW ISRAEL TO KEEP THE LAW. (i) He gives the Israelites a new spirit and a new heart, and then (ii) He writes those Laws on the heart and mind of the Israelite. This is the New Covenant made with the House of Israel (ten northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (the two southern Tribes). So, the New Covenant;
    • replaces that of SINAI
    • still has the Law as its Content
    • will be instituted when the ten northern Tribes and the two southern Tribes are united and in the Land again
    • is built so that the Israelites will keep it and never be thrown out again

    The Peoples of this earth and their relationship with God:
    • From Adam, via Noah God made the Nations. They are with us today - about 195 of them
    • From Abraham via Isaac, God made another and special Nation - Israel. They are with us today, some still in dispersion and some in Judea
    • From Abraham via Jesus Christ, God made another and New Nation by a birth by the Holy Spirit. They are before our eyes today even if in an apostate state


    • If one of the Nations believes in, and calls on our Lord Jesus, he is NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE NATIONS. He is a New Man and all old things including his ethnicity, are wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). He might still have his national passport, but this does not count in a relationship with God. Also, since he NEVER had the Covenant of Law, he continues WITHOUT the Covenant of Law.
    • If one of the Nation of Israel believes in, and calls on our Lord Jesus, he is NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL. He is a New Man and all old things including his ethnicity, are wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). He might still have an Israeli passport, but this does not count in a relationship with God. Added to this, because his past falls away, HE IS NO LONGER UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW
    • Any other man of Israel who refuses Jesus REMAINS UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW. The Covenant of Law is only REPLACED "in that day" when Israel and Judah are united again. From that day on the Israeli is UNDER THE NEW COVENANT OF LAW.

    So when one studies the Bible, and especially who IS and who ISN'T under Law, and Covenant, one must be very sure who the context is showing.
    1. If the context is taking about the Church, THEY ARE NOT UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW - OLD OR NEW. They ARE under the Covenant of the Rainbow (Noah's Covenant), and by being IN Christ they are under the Covenant of PROMISE made with Abraham
    2. If the context is talking of Israelites, THEY ARE UNDER THE COVENANT OF LAW OF SINAI until God restores them ALL to the their Land. THEN they will be under the NEW COVENANT but of the SAME LAW
    3. If the context talks of the Nations, THEY ARE NOT UNDER ANY COVENANT EXCEPT THAT OF NOAH

    Let's hammer it home with an example. Joe Soap is a US citizen. He has a US passport. What covenant is he under? ONLY that of Noah. So he must uphold the death penalty for murder and not eat blood. Joe Soap sympathizes with the Jews, especially after hearing about the Holocaust, and decides to convert to Jewry. He is circumcised and swears allegiance to the Law and eventually emigrates to Israel. What Covenant is he under? ALL OF THEM, from Noah's Covenant to the Davidic, and his blessings and/or cursings come via the Law of Moses - the Covenant of Sinai. But God, seeing the heart of Joe Soap, reveals to him Jesus Christ. In a painful but necessary step, Joe Soap believes in Jesus and calls out His name. He is now a believer of the Church. What Covenant(s) is he under? AS A CHRISTIAN HE IS UNDER NOAH'S COVENANT AND ABRAHAM'S COVENANT. He must deny, refuse, and set aside the Covenant of Law of Sinai. He must stop practicing the Sabbath, he can eat pork and his circumcision now counts for nothing. He is warned by Galatians 5:4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." And when the new Covenant is instituted - WHAT THEN??? THEN - NOTHING!!! He is a new Creature and belongs, in God's eyes, neither to the USA, NOR to Israel, BUT the Church. And the Church is under NEITHER OLD OR NEW COVENANT!

    Take your time to read this. If you want scripture proof of any one thing, just ask.

    I read your post bro, I just don't agree with some of,it

    Are you understanding that every one of Jesus disciples were Israelites in the gospel ? Are you saying they are under Moses covenant because they were born isrealites? ......yet they are all the ones exclaiming were of the new covenants? Peter says clearly no one kept the law not him, the other apostles or elders none of them, no one ever did. Even Moses died not entering into the promised land, and he was the mediator of the covenant .

    the old covenant applies to no one, it was broken, defiled from its people to its priests to its prophets, God condemns all of them throughout the prophets like Ezekiel, Zechariah, Malachi.....that covenant was never ever going to be eternal, nor does it offer eternal life, it offers earthly blessings and long years before you die and rest with all the others.....who were all waiting on the resurrection and life to come. Of course that's Jesus which I'm sure you know,


    bro think of it, who is Peter preaching to right here? Israelites or Gentiles?

    “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, >>>>>>saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

    Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
    **Acts‬ *3:13-15, 17-26‬ *KJV‬‬


    the law and prophets, foretold of Jesus the messiah who would come, the covenant there Peter refers to, is found in Genesis 22 not coincidentally, after he offers his only recognized son Isaac, ( who again represents the new) then Abraham in faith says as he is leading Isaac to sacrifice, " God himself will provide the lamb for the offering" ........then John sees Jesus coming near and says " look the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

    the gospel was promised in the 3 red verse of chapter 12 " in thee all peoples of the earth will be blessed" afterwards, in 15, he tells of Israel going into captivity, being delivered and eventually given the covenant at Sinai. The gospel, was promised before the law was given, it was given 430 years after the promise in ch 22" in thy seed shall all people of the earth be blessed" that's about Jesus, not Israel. Even in the beginning promises you see the two distinct covenants, actually look at ishmaels life it only takes 10 minutes to read look what God promises him, compared to Isaac and then you sort of see the point of Galatians 3-4


    but God bless you sincerely, even if we disagree on points regarding somewhat complex things, there should be no hard feelings or no upset in the spirit, no offense for either I like the discussions that are that way , you seem a very mature Christian by you demeanor and I appreciate that a lot, it's rare haha

    I'm not a proud guy man, it may be that you have. A deeper understanding about this, I tried to see your points and agree with some, but also a lot of the points, I find for me to be thoroughly, explained. They broke the covenant, was always meant to be that way so they would be sent into the earth, one of the punishments, in order to spread the law and gospel to the world.

    the law isn't of no use, anyone rejecting Christ, is under that law, but it will condemn them the last day, if they convert, Jesus can save them through the gospel, through faith. Like Abraham, believing into salvation




    see Deuteronomy 18 beginning at verse 15 to understand what Peter is talking about what Moses said....Christ was hidden as a promise, all along , he is all through the law and prophets in various ways. They just had no eyes or ears.

  6. #36

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK: I hear you. And no offense is taken even in the most vehement counter arguments.

    You would like to peg the two Covenants alluded to in Galatians to the Covenant of Law of Horeb and the new Covenant of Law of Jeremiah 31:31. Let us examine the text. But first, just for information, let us consider Galatians 3:17. "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." Which two Covenants were given 430 years apart? The answer is easy. That of PROMISE to Abraham, and 430 years later, that of LAW to Israel at Horeb.

    Now, we move to your scripture and its context - Galatians 4:21-28;

    21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
    22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."


    The Galatian Churches had started so well. But now men crept in, from Jerusalem, and said that while the rebirth and eternal life were to be had by faith, sanctification (or perfection) was to be had by keeping the Law of Moses. By the ned of Chapter 3 Paul establishes that the Christian is not under Law but that he IS under Promise.
    • In verse 21 he says to those who wanted to embrace and be subject to the Law of Moses, "let the Law speak for itself"!
    • In verse 22 Abraham had TWO SONS, one born in slavery (for Hagar is a slave and therefore her sons are slaves), and one born by Promise because Sarah was barren
    • In verse 23 TWO WOMEN and their conceptions are brought into view. Abraham thought he would help God and by the power of his and Hagar's FLESH, brought forth Ishmael. But Sarah, a free woman, conceived by intervention of the Holy Spirit seeing as she was barren
    • In verse 24 it says "these THINGS". What things? The manner of CONCEPTION of the TWO SONS. And this manner of conception of the TWO sons is an allegory for TWO COVENANTS. The first is said outright. That SON born in BONDAGE, or "slavery" speaks of the Law given at Sinai
    • In verse 25 this is confirmed. Israel, or Judah, were still under this Law. They had refused their Messiah and were where they were 100, or 500 years before - under the BONDAGE of Law
    • In verse 26 the instruction returns to Sarah. She is the other woman, but she is given a new name - "Jerusalem which is above" and "mother of us all". Before we go to why she is suddenly called this, let us conclude the thought from verse 27 and 28. Sarah received a Promise, and that Promise ended with Isaac. God intervenes in the the barren womna's life and produces Isaac. So Sarah is still in view. And so Isaac, and all his seed after him, are called "children of the PROMISE" and "born in FREEDOM". THIS ALL IS THE OTHER COVENANT SPOKEN OF - THE COVENANT MADE WITH ABRAHAM ABOUT HIS SEED VIA SARAH.

    Now we must return to verse 26 and answer why Sarah is suddenly called "Jerusalem which is above" and "mother of US all"

    Jerusalem: What is Jerusalem?
    It is "city of the great King" (Matt.5:35). That is, it is the PLACE on earth from which universal rule will one day go out. It is a City, part of which is the House of God - the dwelling place of Jehovah ON EARTH. The Place where His Name is. If Israel had kept the Law, and/or embraced their Messiah, rule over the whole earth would have gone out from Jerusalem and God would have dwelt with His People in the Temple. But Jerusalem "which is now" failed to attain to this high standing because the Law, which addresses the flesh, brought Israel down. So the Messiah returns to heaven and Jerusalem, "which now is", brings the logical end to a Law that could not do its job because of the weakness of men's flesh (Rom.8:2). The men of Jerusalem remain in bondage to a Law which, instead of making them a the leading nation, makes them CAPTIVES of all nations and disperse them. The PROMISE to Abraham was that his seed "would possess the gates of his enemies" meaning that they would rule over their enemies. But instead - they are ruled.

    Jerusalem above
    The tragedy of Jerusalem "which now is" is to be overturned in due time. Instead of the Kingdom of Israel, the Lord raises up a Jewish King who will (i) be from heaven, and (ii) bring heavenly rule to the earth. It will be called "the Kingdom of Heaven". Not the Kingdom IN Heaven, but the Kingdom OUT OF Heaven. The King's prayer is "Thy (God's) Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy (God's) will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven" (Matt.6:10). So a "Heavenly Kingdom and a Heavenly House is to replace the ones that now are.

    Mother of us all
    The earthly Jerusalem is populated with ONE seed - Israel. But to Sarah, THREE Seeds are promised.
    1. A SEED (singular) Who would bring the blessings of Abraham to the Gentiles and in Whom all the families of the earth would be blessed
    2. SEED as the sand of the sea shore In Parable, the sea is the nations (e.g. Isa.9:1, 17:12; Ezek.26:3). So which People are a nation which dwell next to the Nations? Israel of course. So from Isaac comes a People like the sand of the sea shore which are born of the flesh.
    3. SEED as the stars of heaven. And which People are NOT of the dust, but heavenly? The Church of course (Heb.3:1). Their BIRTH is not via the flesh BUT FROM ABOVE (Jn.3:3 lit. Gk.)
    4. And who is MOTHER of these ALL? Sarah! Isaac, by the intervention of the Holy Spirit, produces Israel (1st Seed). An Israelite, Mary, by intervention of the Holy Spirit, brings forth Jesus (the SEED - singular). And our Lord Jesus, after having undergone the full experience of a man under law, and after a Substitutionary death for all men, brings forth Seed by the Holy Spirit - the Church. Since Sarah is given ONLY PROMISE, and is a FREE Woman, She is MOTHER of ALL who make up the Heavenly Jerusalem which comes down to earth.


    1. Israel, seed of Promise but of the flesh gets Canaan
    2. Our Lord Jesus, Seed of Sarah bring heavenly rule to the whole earth
    3. The Church, born from above and heavenly in nature, co-rules with Christ AND is God's House

    Where do we find this setup again?
    1. The Olive Tree of Romans Chapter 11. A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). The root is Holy and thus must be Christ. The natural branches are Israel. And the wild branches are the Church
    2. Revelation 12 - a WOMAN from heaven with (i) SEED that keeps God's Commandments and (ii) Seed that has the Testimony of Jesus Christ. They are BOTH seed of a heavenly woman
    3. Revelation 21 - Jerusalem which comes from heaven but has Christ as the Tabernacle, Walls built of Christians and Gates built of Jews

    I have expanded more than I wanted to, and if you are faced with this for the first time, it will take more than one reading to check every statement. But the bottom line is that World Rule and Ownership of the Land or the earth, is by the SEED of Sarah VIA the COVENANT of PROMISE. The Covenant of Sinai was unable to achieve this because of the flesh. The Covenant of Promise is never removed, as we see in Galatians 3:17 above, but that of Sinai - the Law, is replaced by the New Covenant of the same Law.

    The Galatian believers were SEED of Sarah VIA JESUS and thus FREE from the Law as the Law was fulfilled for them by Jesus. The Jews who brought the Law of Moses to the Galatian Believers were STILL IN BONDAGE because they refused the fulfilling of the Law by Jesus and promoted it as the way to sanctification.
    The Galatian believers were SEED of Sarah VIA JESUS and thus FREE from the Law as the Law was fulfilled for them by Jesus. The Jews who brought the Law of Moses to the Galatian Believers were STILL IN BONDAGE because they refused the fulfilling of the Law by Jesus and promoted it as the way to sanctification.[/QUOTE]

    haha yeah, I agree with some this, now I got ya, I think the confusion wasn't a total disagreement but a matter of saying the same things with different words.

    God bless, he's not only the jidiazers, but even the whole world is in thier position. Because the law....

    “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”
    **Romans‬ *2:12-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    you see, even Gentiles have the law in them, because we all originate from the same man who was made in Gods image, humans have residue from that in us, it's why even a non believer kills a man, he hides it from others knowing internally it's wrong.....this " thou shalt not kill" is written on his heart and conscience. When a person cheats on a spouse...they hide it believer or not, because " thou shalt not commit adultery" is inside of them still, thou corrupt and not appearing as Gods image and likeness, there is residue, left in sinners because we are made of what came out of God, he breathed his breath into his nostrils...and man became a living soul"


    even those who have never heard the law, will be judged and condemned by it. Definitely more understand what you are saying, sometimes I need to look at a persons last paragraph, and it clicks, but I was lost in some of your posts not that they were wrong, but the confusion was mine. God bless thanks for the patience brother the only real difference I see between us, if I'm understanding what you are saying is you believe the church has no covenant.....which , I obviously believe the gospel to be the new and eternal covenant, for either Jew, or gentile believer. That's the church, doesn't matter thier bloodline, what matters is the covenant and the blood by which it is atoned for, and signified by.

    The church doctrine, the words of,our covenant, are those Jesus preached. We're bound to obedience by his word, and blood. Remember how Paul is explaining there, the covenant was made by promise to Abraham, you are saying a covenant has to be an agreement, Abraham simply believed for his end of the covenant, obedience comes if we believe.


    What I'm saying is if you believe that ther is 1 million dollars in your yard buried 5 feet down in the center of your yard, you will go dig for it. But if someone you don't believe tells you it's there, your not going to waste your time. Belief isn't only saying I believe, but faith produces works or,it isn't faith. Abraham believed.....so of course he did what God told him packed his belongings and set out as commanded. He never agreed , he believed so he acted because his belief was true. That's the covenant of promise, Paul talks of and also Peter identifies it as the covenant.

    “Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.”
    **Acts‬ *3:25‬ *KJV‬‬

    You are looking to the mosaic covenant, when he read all the words of the law, they agreed to,obey it, and then he shed the blood of animals saying " this is the blood of,the covenant which God has enjoined to,you"

    Do you see how the promise of the gospel, came before the law?

    And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
    **Genesis‬ *12:3‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:8‬ *KJV‬‬

    But they both Paul and Peter refer to the covenant promise, when Abraham offers Isaac his only begotten in obedience to,God. Saying after

    And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
    **Genesis‬ *22:2, 4, 6-12, 15-18‬ *KJV‬‬

    The covenant is confirmed here, for,God says " by myself I have sworn.....and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed"

    peter identifies this as the covenant promise above there in chapter 3 and Paul also does it more than once, but in the 2 chapters in Galatians we were discussing. The idea is, the gospel, came before the law covenant, the gospel like Isaac was born because God said he would be, he was born of faith.

    the he law came after Jacob took them into Egypt, they became bound and enslaved, and thier journey really looks like ishmaels promises, and his life. But the promise, is not of that law, it came beforehand, and the law is in between, but because the law came, it does not dissannul the promise made to,Abraham. The law was to,lead mankind to Jesus, until the time was complete, then appears the lamb Abraham spoke of when he offered Isaac. And Jesus begins saying the time is at hand repent and believe the gospel......That's how we know it is for certain the new covenant, will never change, be altered, fade away. His words are everlasting and immutable, because his life is such,his sacrifice is such, he is,such. There's no more God has to,promise other than Jesus he is everything, and his promises are beyond our ability to grasp,or imagine what he has prepared for,those who love him.....and loving him is easy to grasp.....if you love me you will keep my commandments,...if a man loves me he will obey me...if he does not love me, he will not obey me...these words are not mine but the father who sent me....

    Obedience to,Jesus is eternal life, our covenant is the gospel. It's why Paul preached the kingdom to,both Jew and gentile alike

  7. #37

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What many don't understand is that the incapacity of the Law to give men eternal life did not render it a worthless instrument. It was a legitimate covenant relationship that it produced, and it clearly worked for a time. It just couldn't work for the *whole nation* over time, since the lawless always appeared to overtake the lawful. This was the demonstration of the incapacity of a nation with respect to removing the lawless among them.

    But the Law was never meant to produce eternal life--only to produce a real relationship between God and the nation until a better covenant could be produced that removed the lawless and gave the lawful eternal life. So the Law was not a failure, but it could neither produce eternal life nor remove the lawless from the nation. In other words, the Law was not a bad thing, regardless of its limitations. It did succeed in keeping the nation together in relationship with God at various times, and it kept Israel's hope alive even at its worst times.



    The key phrase here is "God, who created all things." In other words, God didn't just give Christ a portion of the world, such as the nation Israel. He gave Christ *the whole creation,* including all races and nations on earth. So, the mystery for Paul was that Israel, though apparently chosen alone, was actually just the stepping stone towards reaching out to the whole world for Christ. This had not been apparent under the Law, because by the Law Israel was defined as "the saints," or the "People of God," and the rest of the world were viewed as pagan nations to be avoided at all costs--at least, their *paganism* was to be avoided.

    But the mystery was that paganism would be removed, along with a Law that separated the world into these two divergent groups. Christ would be revealed to the pagan nations, just as God had revealed Himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.



    Yes, the Law actually produced partiality, racism, and judgmentalism, in the Jews towards the Gentiles. It wasn't, again, that the Law was a bad document. It simply couldn't extinguish, for all time, the corrupting influences that kept the Gentiles from being introduced to the same grace the Jews had experienced.



    I think perhaps that the Law could not be unveiled for Israel because the nation was at that time mixed, between believers and unbelievers. Moses actually could see God to some extent. And under the New Covenant all true believers may look, unveiled, at Christ. But the veiling of the Old Covenant meant that it was not yet time to advance the Kingdom from Israel to the rest of the nations, because Christ had to come to separate the sheep from the goats in Israel, sending only the sheep into the world's harvest.



    Clearly, once the New Covenant of Christ had come, there was no going back to the old ways of the Law, to a mixed nation, to a nation not yet with the fulfillment of eternal life, to a Law that had yet to advance its blessings to the rest of the world. Any attempt to return to the Law is an attempt to return to shadows of things that transcended the strictly national laws of Israel. The true message was for the world, once the reality had come. The shadows had to go away.

    I read this a second time and found it to be very sound edifying stuff, thank you I appreciate the time you took.

    it's been incredibly wonderful for me since I realized the law and prophets were always preaching Jesus through that veil. I find shadows of Christ in everything . ended up finding out the bible is full of those bright flashing arrows no one can miss, all pointing to the gospel of,our lord and savior Jesus Christ! The Old Testament points forward to him, the new is a witness that he had come, turns out in my very limited understanding....the entire bible is about Jesus, and his word.

  8. #38

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Many think Moses taught the same doctrine as Jesus, I remember the gospel of grace " teachers" disciples of,Joseph prince, les Feldick, and those types explaining how Jesus re taught the mosaic law, to,which I would show them his ministry compared to Moses, and eventually they would explain how lost and backwards I was.. The reason was because they didn't look anything like jesusmteachings, so,then they could not admit it was the truth ofmGods doctrine.

    I'd show them Paul explaining " anyone who will not consent to godly doctrine, even unto the words of,our lord Jesus Christ, he knows nothing....ect but they'd explain how it didn't really mean that and Paul was the only one to,hear and he only said Grace.....yet I'd show them Galatians 5, Ephesians 5, Thessalonians, Hebrews....ect showing them yeah Paul taught all the same things Jesus did....yet still they rejected again and again Jesus the lords words. Even with me showing them so many times him saying " my words are life, my words are spirit, keep my words, the Holy Ghost will bring to mind all that I've said to,you, go,into the world teach them all that I've taught you, teach them to,obey it.....nothing would ever get through...


    I realized that's the danger of false doctrine, it builds a wall brick by brick and eventually blinds us to,truth. The thing is the gospel teachings appear so,difficult because we are selfish humans, corrupt at the heart when we first see it. The key is to,accept those things that offend our self righteousness, to,believe what he's saying, because he's Jesus and we know he loves us that he should die for us......we keep,those words knowing its truth, and through faith it becomes part of,our minds.

    not unlike a man who wants to be a doctor, he stUndies the right knowledge, and it sinks in. So when he is doing surgery, he doesn't have to check the books, it's in him, part of his understanding, he does what is in him performing the surgery almost by nature......the gospel,works in a similar way, through the conscience we are led as we refuse to dent his word. It's all the power of Gods word working in man. Just like he said...let ther be light...and it began shining from darkness......his word has the power, our place is to,accept and believe unto sanctification. Where there is sanctification there is complete freedom from the law of sin , freedom to,walk in the things prepared for,us by God

  9. #39
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    I read your post bro, I just don't agree with some of,it

    Are you understanding that every one of Jesus disciples were Israelites in the gospel ? Are you saying they are under Moses covenant because they were born isrealites? ......yet they are all the ones exclaiming were of the new covenants? Peter says clearly no one kept the law not him, the other apostles or elders none of them, no one ever did. Even Moses died not entering into the promised land, and he was the mediator of the covenant .

    the old covenant applies to no one, it was broken, defiled from its people to its priests to its prophets, God condemns all of them throughout the prophets like Ezekiel, Zechariah, Malachi.....that covenant was never ever going to be eternal, nor does it offer eternal life, it offers earthly blessings and long years before you die and rest with all the others.....who were all waiting on the resurrection and life to come. Of course that's Jesus which I'm sure you know,


    bro think of it, who is Peter preaching to right here? Israelites or Gentiles?

    “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, >>>>>>saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

    Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
    **Acts‬ *3:13-15, 17-26‬ *KJV‬‬


    the law and prophets, foretold of Jesus the messiah who would come, the covenant there Peter refers to, is found in Genesis 22 not coincidentally, after he offers his only recognized son Isaac, ( who again represents the new) then Abraham in faith says as he is leading Isaac to sacrifice, " God himself will provide the lamb for the offering" ........then John sees Jesus coming near and says " look the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

    the gospel was promised in the 3 red verse of chapter 12 " in thee all peoples of the earth will be blessed" afterwards, in 15, he tells of Israel going into captivity, being delivered and eventually given the covenant at Sinai. The gospel, was promised before the law was given, it was given 430 years after the promise in ch 22" in thy seed shall all people of the earth be blessed" that's about Jesus, not Israel. Even in the beginning promises you see the two distinct covenants, actually look at ishmaels life it only takes 10 minutes to read look what God promises him, compared to Isaac and then you sort of see the point of Galatians 3-4


    but God bless you sincerely, even if we disagree on points regarding somewhat complex things, there should be no hard feelings or no upset in the spirit, no offense for either I like the discussions that are that way , you seem a very mature Christian by you demeanor and I appreciate that a lot, it's rare haha

    I'm not a proud guy man, it may be that you have. A deeper understanding about this, I tried to see your points and agree with some, but also a lot of the points, I find for me to be thoroughly, explained. They broke the covenant, was always meant to be that way so they would be sent into the earth, one of the punishments, in order to spread the law and gospel to the world.

    the law isn't of no use, anyone rejecting Christ, is under that law, but it will condemn them the last day, if they convert, Jesus can save them through the gospel, through faith. Like Abraham, believing into salvation




    see Deuteronomy 18 beginning at verse 15 to understand what Peter is talking about what Moses said....Christ was hidden as a promise, all along , he is all through the law and prophets in various ways. They just had no eyes or ears.
    Hi Brother, and thank you for your reply. No offense is taken if we disagree. In actual fact, if you've been around long enough in Christian circles, you will find that no two brothers agree 100% with each other. WE are all on a journey through life and also through the Bible. One has seen this, and one has seen that. We are all different members of Christ's Body, and have different functions and different Talents. The thing is to set forth what one has seen, WITH scriptures, so that the others can follow your thoughts, and then see if somebody finds a mistake with it, or can add to it. Then we can discuss it. Finally, it is the Holy Spirit that gives us light (Jn.16:13), so it is no use for any of us to get angry or offended.

    Of course you then get brothers who make it personal, as if we all set out to teach false things. But I find very few of on this Forum who actively try to mislead everyone. Most of us are here because we love God's Word and want to share what we think we have seen.

    Your answer is difficult for me to answer though. I have made a list of statements to get to my conclusion. You are free of course to write what you like, but have you noticed that you did not address one of those statements of mine. If you disagree, which statement do you find incorrect? Till then we can't really discuss.

    Take care bro, and God bless.

  10. #40
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    "The Galatian believers were SEED of Sarah VIA JESUS and thus FREE from the Law as the Law was fulfilled for them by Jesus. The Jews who brought the Law of Moses to the Galatian Believers were STILL IN BONDAGE because they refused the fulfilling of the Law by Jesus and promoted it as the way to sanctification."

    haha yeah, I agree with some this, now I got ya, I think the confusion wasn't a total disagreement but a matter of saying the same things with different words.

    God bless, he's not only the jidiazers, but even the whole world is in thier position. Because the law....

    “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”
    **Romans‬ *2:12-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    you see, even Gentiles have the law in them, because we all originate from the same man who was made in Gods image, humans have residue from that in us, it's why even a non believer kills a man, he hides it from others knowing internally it's wrong.....this " thou shalt not kill" is written on his heart and conscience. When a person cheats on a spouse...they hide it believer or not, because " thou shalt not commit adultery" is inside of them still, thou corrupt and not appearing as Gods image and likeness, there is residue, left in sinners because we are made of what came out of God, he breathed his breath into his nostrils...and man became a living soul"


    even those who have never heard the law, will be judged and condemned by it. Definitely more understand what you are saying, sometimes I need to look at a persons last paragraph, and it clicks, but I was lost in some of your posts not that they were wrong, but the confusion was mine. God bless thanks for the patience brother the only real difference I see between us, if I'm understanding what you are saying is you believe the church has no covenant.....which , I obviously believe the gospel to be the new and eternal covenant, for either Jew, or gentile believer. That's the church, doesn't matter thier bloodline, what matters is the covenant and the blood by which it is atoned for, and signified by.

    The church doctrine, the words of,our covenant, are those Jesus preached. We're bound to obedience by his word, and blood. Remember how Paul is explaining there, the covenant was made by promise to Abraham, you are saying a covenant has to be an agreement, Abraham simply believed for his end of the covenant, obedience comes if we believe.


    What I'm saying is if you believe that ther is 1 million dollars in your yard buried 5 feet down in the center of your yard, you will go dig for it. But if someone you don't believe tells you it's there, your not going to waste your time. Belief isn't only saying I believe, but faith produces works or,it isn't faith. Abraham believed.....so of course he did what God told him packed his belongings and set out as commanded. He never agreed , he believed so he acted because his belief was true. That's the covenant of promise, Paul talks of and also Peter identifies it as the covenant.

    “Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.”
    **Acts‬ *3:25‬ *KJV‬‬

    You are looking to the mosaic covenant, when he read all the words of the law, they agreed to,obey it, and then he shed the blood of animals saying " this is the blood of,the covenant which God has enjoined to,you"

    Do you see how the promise of the gospel, came before the law?

    And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
    **Genesis‬ *12:3‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:8‬ *KJV‬‬

    But they both Paul and Peter refer to the covenant promise, when Abraham offers Isaac his only begotten in obedience to,God. Saying after

    And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
    **Genesis‬ *22:2, 4, 6-12, 15-18‬ *KJV‬‬

    The covenant is confirmed here, for,God says " by myself I have sworn.....and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed"

    peter identifies this as the covenant promise above there in chapter 3 and Paul also does it more than once, but in the 2 chapters in Galatians we were discussing. The idea is, the gospel, came before the law covenant, the gospel like Isaac was born because God said he would be, he was born of faith.

    the he law came after Jacob took them into Egypt, they became bound and enslaved, and thier journey really looks like ishmaels promises, and his life. But the promise, is not of that law, it came beforehand, and the law is in between, but because the law came, it does not dissannul the promise made to,Abraham. The law was to,lead mankind to Jesus, until the time was complete, then appears the lamb Abraham spoke of when he offered Isaac. And Jesus begins saying the time is at hand repent and believe the gospel......That's how we know it is for certain the new covenant, will never change, be altered, fade away. His words are everlasting and immutable, because his life is such,his sacrifice is such, he is,such. There's no more God has to,promise other than Jesus he is everything, and his promises are beyond our ability to grasp,or imagine what he has prepared for,those who love him.....and loving him is easy to grasp.....if you love me you will keep my commandments,...if a man loves me he will obey me...if he does not love me, he will not obey me...these words are not mine but the father who sent me....

    Obedience to,Jesus is eternal life, our covenant is the gospel. It's why Paul preached the kingdom to,both Jew and gentile alike
    OK. Here I can agree with most of what you have said. One point that stood out was that the Nations, the Gentiles, while they do not have the Law of Moses, have a Law written in their hearts. This is correct. The Bible calls it conscience. The big difference is that the Law of Moses did not only have a moral side. It had a ritual side that was intended to keep Israel pure and clean so that a Holy God could dwell with them and not be offended. So, while the Gentile innately knows that murder, stealing, lying and adultery are wrong, and does them in a hidden way, he does nor care about the service to the Temple, the Sabbath, the Passover, wearing clothes of different materials and keeping the sexual laws that Moses required.

    So when Galatians discusses the Law, it means not only the moral side, but the ritual side as well. The thing that changed RADICALLY from the Old Testament to the New was that God, in Israel, lived WITH them. He lived in a special House with a Veil to separate Himself from them. Aaron, once a year, with special washings and special clothes, could go through the Veil once a year. The rest of Israel were declared to be profane, and anybody who tried to go through the Veil got killed. But in the New Testament, God comes to live IN the believer. The problem of the profane flesh is dealt with in two ways. (1) It is counted to be dead by Baptism (Rom.6:1-7; Gal.2:20), and (2) Christ becomes our special washing and clothing (Jn.13:1-10; Rom.13:14; Gal.3:27). All the rituals of the Law are fulfilled in Christ and imputed to us because only He fulfilled them all and correctly. Any attempt by a Christian to fulfill one dot of the Law is to say that (i) Jesus wasn't good enough, and (ii) he/she can do it better. The Father of course, is furious with such blasphemy because it is HE that decides what is good enough or not. It is HIS HOLINESS that is being protected and is is HE Who sets the standard.

    So the Covenant of Law, whether it be the Covenant of Sinai, or the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BELIEVERS. It has to do with Israel who have Emmanuel - God WITH us, (not IN us). In the Millennium our Lord Jesus will live WITH Israel in Jerusalem. So Israel, who refused to believe, must again fulfill all the rituals for cleanliness before God. And when the Nations go up to worship at Jerusalem (Zech.14:16), they have to go through these rituals as well. But for the Believer - the Christian, Christ's cleansing, washing, and being our clothing, our garment, is more than enough. So we have nothing to do with the ANY Covenant of Law.

  11. #41

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hi Brother, and thank you for your reply. No offense is taken if we disagree. In actual fact, if you've been around long enough in Christian circles, you will find that no two brothers agree 100% with each other. WE are all on a journey through life and also through the Bible. One has seen this, and one has seen that. We are all different members of Christ's Body, and have different functions and different Talents. The thing is to set forth what one has seen, WITH scriptures, so that the others can follow your thoughts, and then see if somebody finds a mistake with it, or can add to it. Then we can discuss it. Finally, it is the Holy Spirit that gives us light (Jn.16:13), so it is no use for any of us to get angry or offended.

    Of course you then get brothers who make it personal, as if we all set out to teach false things. But I find very few of on this Forum who actively try to mislead everyone. Most of us are here because we love God's Word and want to share what we think we have seen.

    Your answer is difficult for me to answer though. I have made a list of statements to get to my conclusion. You are free of course to write what you like, but have you noticed that you did not address one of those statements of mine. If you disagree, which statement do you find incorrect? Till then we can't really discuss.

    Take care bro, and God bless.

    bro I don't disagree with the scripture, your conclusion that the new covenant didn't begin with Christ, that's where I disagree. The things you have offered don't show what you are saying, to me anyways, I understand what you see, but I think you are over examining things laid bare that just need acceptance and not so much figuring out. I'm sort of where you are in this, you aren't really addressing the many things I've shown you in scripture either, we may need to just let it sit awhile.

    here's my conclusion.

    “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake


    do you understand that's the giving of the mosaic covenant? I'll show you below


    But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:18-24‬ *KJV‬‬

    Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Do you agree? Very simple there right?

    “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
    **Hebrews‬ *13:20-21‬ *KJV‬‬

    whose blood was shed of the eternal covenant? When did that happen? And what was the purpose of shedding the blood?

    here's the first covenant being set into effect with blood of animals

    “And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.”

    the words of the law, and then the shedding of the blood of animals.

    Jesus preached all the gospel, made clear to everyone my words are Gods words, obey my words, keep my words, then Jesus the mediator shown above

    “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
    **Matthew‬ *26:28‬ *KJV‬‬


    then of course he went to the cross, shed his blood making the eternal covenant, .....the eternal covenant. His words, his blood, his life. There will never be a different one. There was the one at Sinai, mediated by Moses to the children of Israel, this covenant as I showed you before God said as he was giving it to them....Moses these people will turn to other gods and I will turn away and forsake them......after this, he promises a new covenant, forgiving sins...which you seem to be saying isn't the gospel ? When the gospel is about forgiveness of sins through his blood....again the mediator of the new.

    “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”
    **Hebrews‬ *9:15‬ *KJV‬‬


    The covenant likened to Isaac, the heir, not Ishmael who was sent away that he should not share the inheritance.




    I just think it's simple, the old covenant was meant to lead to the new all along, it's not as if God made a mistake and then decided to make a new, he told them all along they would brake it. You are saying " a covenant has to be a spoken agreement.....it doesn't that's the difference. Abrahams covenant was that of faith, God spoke to him he obeyed. That's what Peter and Paul both identify as the gospel covenant. Again as I have shown you in this thread.


    I'm thinking you are over examining, there's no way to God but through Christ and his gospel, his blood, his word, his resurrection that's the new covenant. As above says he is the mediator of the new covenant, so what is even your argument? You seem to think the church has no covenant.....yet would you say the forgiveness comes through his blood? If so......what are you saying the blood of the new covenant, doesn't apply to the new covenant? It doesn't make sense to me brother what you are saying, that's all I mean to say, what the scripture says is those in Christ are in the new covenant, forgiven through his blood, whether gentile Christian, or Jewish Christian. There's no difference, all must come through faith alone. No other way.





    when Jesus did as Moses did, spoke all his word, said you must keep these things....then she'd his blood saying this is my blood in the New Testament which is shed for you.... That's where the covenant is, his words, then his blood shed for the remission of the first testament. You may say " wrote what you want" but what I'm saying is clearly written.

    “If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


    And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
    **Hebrews‬ *7:11-12, 15-19‬ *KJV‬‬




    Jesus words, changed the law, because the priesthood changed from levitical to melchezideks order, everything changed over when Jesus took his last breath, from earth, to the true things in heaven. The real priesthood is Jesus priesthood, the real law is Jesus word, the real covenant blood is his blood.....everything before was a foreshadow so he would make sense to them and us who learn long after.


    There's only the two covenants required by God for his people. I would study Hebrews, why do you think it's all about two covenants? One given through the prophets before, and one given through Gods son? If there's some other different covenant for Israelites.......I don't see it. Because I don't think it's there.


    agreed bro im glad to find someone who understands the value of not taking offense to enable discussion, we can't change people's ideas......but God can when the spirit of discussion is proper. God bless you.

  12. #42
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    I'm. It sure how a Christian can argue with that. If the law of Moses is not our doctrine then we are in the new covenant, Christs doctrine which doesn't lead to breaking the commandments, but to keeping them from inside so they aren't grievous. We don't need to hear don kill....were born of God, we heal and help by that nature we take on. We don't need to hear don't steal....we give and share and help....by that new heart created through the gospel....we don't need to hear do not commit adultery...we learn to rid our hearts of lust, and adultery is not something we even consider.......the gospel, is written on hearts, what's in our hearts works through our conscience, leading us not against our sinful will, but by the will his words create in us, by faith in who he is and why he came
    You provided some really good references there, brother! No question that if we aren't going to practice circumcision as a *requirement,* then we aren't under the Law of Moses. It is no different with Jews--after all, it was Paul--a Jew--who was denying that circumcision was necessary in Christ!

    It isn't just the fact that we keep the Law of Christ in our heart, though. It is that we don't have to keep any Law perfectly so as to achieve favor with God, in order to achieve eternal life. That has been obtained *for us* by Christ! We simply accept Christ in our hearts, and that is what makes this a "small burden." We are still obligated to follow Christ and his Law. But we are not burdened with the need for perfection. We simply abide in his love.

    Neither could the Jews follow the Law of Moses perfectly. But it was a burden nevertheless--not just because they couldn't achieve perfection, but also because there were so many laws to keep! It was a huge burden to do all of these things, and then to place the burden of national salvation on the shoulders of those who could not even achieve this! God only asked of His followers that they be faithful, and maintain adherence to the Law. Christ would take care of the "perfection" part!

    Some make a big issue of the fact that Gentiles were still required to perform some Moses-like laws. They forget that Paul required of Christians commitment to a law of love in which we do not put stumbling blocks in front of others. Some felt they had to keep certain laws. For their sake we are not to try to impose what for them seemed like "lawless behavior." For Jews still immersed in circumcision, not knowing Christ, it was a good idea for Jewish believers to be circumcised so as to maintain recognition by those they wished to win to Christ.

    But great arguments from Scriptures! I trust others will read and accept!

  13. #43

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Here I can agree with most of what you have said. One point that stood out was that the Nations, the Gentiles, while they do not have the Law of Moses, have a Law written in their hearts. This is correct. The Bible calls it conscience. The big difference is that the Law of Moses did not only have a moral side. It had a ritual side that was intended to keep Israel pure and clean so that a Holy God could dwell with them and not be offended. So, while the Gentile innately knows that murder, stealing, lying and adultery are wrong, and does them in a hidden way, he does nor care about the service to the Temple, the Sabbath, the Passover, wearing clothes of different materials and keeping the sexual laws that Moses required.

    So when Galatians discusses the Law, it means not only the moral side, but the ritual side as well. The thing that changed RADICALLY from the Old Testament to the New was that God, in Israel, lived WITH them. He lived in a special House with a Veil to separate Himself from them. Aaron, once a year, with special washings and special clothes, could go through the Veil once a year. The rest of Israel were declared to be profane, and anybody who tried to go through the Veil got killed. But in the New Testament, God comes to live IN the believer. The problem of the profane flesh is dealt with in two ways. (1) It is counted to be dead by Baptism (Rom.6:1-7; Gal.2:20), and (2) Christ becomes our special washing and clothing (Jn.13:1-10; Rom.13:14; Gal.3:27). All the rituals of the Law are fulfilled in Christ and imputed to us because only He fulfilled them all and correctly. Any attempt by a Christian to fulfill one dot of the Law is to say that (i) Jesus wasn't good enough, and (ii) he/she can do it better. The Father of course, is furious with such blasphemy because it is HE that decides what is good enough or not. It is HIS HOLINESS that is being protected and is is HE Who sets the standard.

    So the Covenant of Law, whether it be the Covenant of Sinai, or the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BELIEVERS. It has to do with Israel who have Emmanuel - God WITH us, (not IN us). In the Millennium our Lord Jesus will live WITH Israel in Jerusalem. So Israel, who refused to believe, must again fulfill all the rituals for cleanliness before God. And when the Nations go up to worship at Jerusalem (Zech.14:16), they have to go through these rituals as well. But for the Believer - the Christian, Christ's cleansing, washing, and being our clothing, our garment, is more than enough. So we have nothing to do with the ANY Covenant of Law.

    what do you think the Holy Ghost is brother? Both Jew and gentile receive the Holy Ghost through only the gospel. thats when God is with us. The old covenant is a foreshadow, seen through a dark veil so you can't really see the truth. God living with them, in thier camp, is a foretelling through that veil that he would dwell in the midst and among his church. Everything in the law, all the ritualistic things, the rites they performed all thier sacrifices all of those things, were shadows of the true things done by Christ.

    the moral things in the law still apply to the full, what's right will always be right, what's wrong will always be wrong, the morality in the law, applies, but we don't need to go read it to learn not to kill, steal lie, cheat, sleep with our family members, or the many social laws. Those things apply to Christians, but to be right we need to keep the gospel, that will keep us from those things. It's about taking on a new nature through the gospel. The mosaic covenant was only meant to bridge between the promise of Christ to Abraham, and the appearing of Christ in the gospel, like Paul says it was like a tutor , meant only to,last until Christ.


    now, the law isn't abolished to the world, anyone rejecting Jesus, needs the laws condemnation, the biggest issue with the world is no one will accept thier wrong and thier condemned by sin. The law teaches that, so that we can understand our need for the savior. Until someone knows thier condemned to die, they'll never change course for life. The laws purpose is to show our unrighteousness before God, that he may be the one to justify us from everything we could not justify ourselves from.

    “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”
    **Romans‬ *3:19-26‬ *KJV‬‬

    God wants us to understand, we cannot be just before him ourselves by keeping a law any law, he wants us to depend on him, and what's more he doesn't want us to see him as a devouring fire wanting to destroy us for our mistakes, he wants us to grasp he loves us so much he would suffer and die on our behalf, in order to justify us by his mercy alone. When we see the truth of God, obedience becomes a desire, not a yoke.



    the law kept them from dying when his angels presence went in thier camp, when his glory shined so brightly among them, but it could never make them clean inside, it was to keep the flesh in check. What happened when they sinned though? One of the harshest laws I see is a girl is married, it's found out she's not a virgin. They then are commanded to bring her to her fathers door, then he and the congregation throw stones until she dies......


    is that the truth of Gods will do you think? That a girl who had unmarried sex once , be forever lost and stoned by her fellow sinners?.......no, not at all, it was how God looked to,them as they looked through a darkened veil of thier sins, hardened hearts. Jesus makes a reference to why Moses law was as it was " because of the hardness of your hearts...." They were sinners having spent 400 years in the most idolatrous nation ever, ancient Egypt. It shows well as soon as Moses leaves they build an idol to worship after all they had seen God do....the Old Testament is only a shadow ministry, it's all they had to them until Christ it was the only path, but notice no one ever lived, they all eventually died. No one was ever promised resurrection ....they were told do,these things and you will live, but if you don't do it all, I will destroy you with famine, pestilence, war, a sword......it was always meant to bring men to the grave being lost and being aware of it, so that Christ would come as the shining light of life he is to those formerly aware of thier state of condemnation.

    study Hebrews thoroughly and look for what I'm saying, those things were of no benefit, they were a shadow of the true things now we have in Christ.

  14. #44

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You provided some really good references there, brother! No question that if we aren't going to practice circumcision as a *requirement,* then we aren't under the Law of Moses. It is no different with Jews--after all, it was Paul--a Jew--who was denying that circumcision was necessary in Christ!

    It isn't just the fact that we keep the Law of Christ in our heart, though. It is that we don't have to keep any Law perfectly so as to achieve favor with God, in order to achieve eternal life. That has been obtained *for us* by Christ! We simply accept Christ in our hearts, and that is what makes this a "small burden." We are still obligated to follow Christ and his Law. But we are not burdened with the need for perfection. We simply abide in his love.

    Neither could the Jews follow the Law of Moses perfectly. But it was a burden nevertheless--not just because they couldn't achieve perfection, but also because there were so many laws to keep! It was a huge burden to do all of these things, and then to place the burden of national salvation on the shoulders of those who could not even achieve this! God only asked of His followers that they be faithful, and maintain adherence to the Law. Christ would take care of the "perfection" part!

    Some make a big issue of the fact that Gentiles were still required to perform some Moses-like laws. They forget that Paul required of Christians commitment to a law of love in which we do not put stumbling blocks in front of others. Some felt they had to keep certain laws. For their sake we are not to try to impose what for them seemed like "lawless behavior." For Jews still immersed in circumcision, not knowing Christ, it was a good idea for Jewish believers to be circumcised so as to maintain recognition by those they wished to win to Christ.

    But great arguments from Scriptures! I trust others will read and accept!

    the words of Christ are Everything we need to keep. And as you say, not perfectly at all, his words are meant to change is by faith into those who don't need laws telling us what not to do.....we become born in the truth, through his word in our minds, flowing into our hearts and conscience. The obedience isn't on us, just having faith is on us and even that is provided! Good post brother thank you


    you are right, it's not the letter of the mosaic laws written in stone, the gospel is different. The gospel is the spirit, not the letter. What happens is because we believe in Jesus, we accept his words, not what others tell us he may have said, but those in the gospel , whether we study and learn or another teaches us the gospel. In the gospel, there is mercy, to those who fall short, but there is equally, teachings and ways to learn and grow into. We do absolutely have to obey the lord Jesus, but by accepting his word, with faith, he is able to change us inwardly. It's actually sort of impossible to obey his word as a rule, like the law was.

    what we do is take in his teachings, into,our hearts simply our faith is in the one who said it, like Abraham. He believed God, and was accounted as righteous because of that. He didn't just say I believe, he believed and so he did what God said to do. Faith.

    Jesus teachings impart his mind and heart to,us, we keep them by faith and as faith grows we begin seeing the obedience that is all through the gospel. There is no possible way for any Christian to remove his doctrine, from Christianity. We grow into obedience, to his word. Salvation comes by faith, but faith produces works. All gods power in us, if we don't obey Christ, were deceiving ourselves.

    it's not a hardened obey me or die.........it's I'm telling you what God said, do this and live forever. If we have faith in Jesus, we have absolutely got to,learn his words and keep,them as truth in us, God does the rest. It hurts at times when we see something he taught that makes us see our own flaws and sin, but there's a point we can say " naw that's not for me" because it seems hard to do, or seems to condemn us. Or we can have faith, and understand " yes what Jesus said is the truth from God, I believe him.......we need to believe him, it's how sanctification happens.

    his words are very different, they are focused on the inner man, because that's the issue that causes us to desire sin, the problem is in our heart and consciences. Believing and taking his word, will produce the right spirit in us.


    his words both assure us of,life, and Gods love for us, Gods will to save us by faith, but those same words also teach us who we need to be, how we need to be to others in order to walk in the light of the children of God. We need his word in us daily, especially the things we know we're not walking in in our lives. Ultimately, saying I believe, is one thing. But believing is another.


    if Jesus arrived and said to you there's a billion dollars in your yard dig it up and it's yours.........time to dig because you have faith in the one who said it.

    but if you don't believe the guy telling you, you probably aren't going to waste your time digging. Like children we grow and learn more responsibility.....eventually we become adults and our responsibility progresses. Definitely not unconditional salvation, but if we have faith, we can rest assured.

  15. #45

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Here's an example of how his teachings work in us.

    suppose a believer struggles with lust and fornication, he believes in Jesus truly then he runs across this teaching

    “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (the law)

    But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”
    **Matthew‬ *5:27-30‬ *KJV‬‬


    if this were the law of the letter, we'd need to chop off hands and pluck eyes out, but it's spiritual truth. Now the believer takes this in believing, he's my lord and he taught this....it's meant to put the truth of how serious lust is , it will bring to,light the lust in us, because that lust in our hearts and minds is the only thing that causes us to sin sexually. His teachings turn our attention inward where we can actually overcome the sin, because we rid the spirit that causes it out of us.

    we don't chop hands off of course, that doesn't stop lust. A blind guy can lust from a touch , a thought a sound.....the teaching is find the root of the problem, learn to stop looking at women with lustful ideas. It was only through Jesus I even understood that we can control what we think, if we will learn the right things, and resist the wrong things.....adultery isn't an issue we need deal with, a clean heart will lead to a clean upright life, just because we believe the words of our Lord.

    same with greed if one struggles with brotherly love, the deeds and truth kind, well then we need the understandings Jesus taught about the deceit of wealth, about sharing and making it a point to look for those in need we have the ability to help....again same thing, we take that in even if it's hard to accept, his word because we believe in him, will work if we keep,it and refuse to deny it.

    like when he said sell your possessions and give to the poor.....that offends people who love money like the Pharisees did. They want not to have that as part of the lords word, but it's evident through the gospel, and epistles. We need to,refuse to deny his words, even if we're not at the moment able to be like he's saying.......his words are truly spirit and life that quickens us within.

    like David's prayers " create in me a clean heart o lord...quicken me and I will be strong" Gods word has not lost its power. He spoke forth everything saying let there be light...let there be .....and what he spoke became........same with the gospel, he's speaking that forth into the darkness of our hearts making the true light to shine.

    “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
    **2 Corinthians‬ *4:6‬ *KJV‬‬


    he's imparting the righteousness of the children of God to believers.

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