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Thread: Consideration of two covenants

  1. #1

    Consideration of two covenants

    If they broke the covenant this would happen...


    "For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: And the anger of the Lord was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *29:26-27‬ *KJV‬‬


    just before Moses dies.....God tells him they will break the covenant.


    "And the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle. And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.


    Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *31:15-17‬ *KJV‬‬




    this comes to pass again and again and again. The people build altars in the high places , they burn incense to false gods, they forsake God, over and over....


    “And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim, and Ashtoreth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and forsook the Lord, and served not him.


    **Judges‬ *10:6, see judges, 1 and 2 kings, 1 and 2 chronicles.....to see what God put up with....




    eventually the covenant is profaned before God, he no longer accepts thier sacrifices, he calls thier prophets fals and says do not hearten to them " not the prophets in the bible, but the false prophets of Israel mentioned by Gods prophets we read in the bible. They forsook the covenant as God said they would all along. So then he actually says through Isaiah,


    Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The Lord of hosts is his name.

    I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.”
    **Isaiah‬ *48:1-6‬ *KJV‬‬


    from the time of,Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel Ezekiel, Zechariah....God says the former things he spoke had come to pass and he was beginning to show something new...


    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.


    A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
    **Isaiah‬ *42:1, 3-9‬ *KJV‬‬




    before they come forth , God is speaking through the prophets, telling them what the new things that were coming would be. Note Jesus is who is mentioned in the first verse there...


    then Jeremiah explains


    “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

    After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

    **Jeremiah‬ *31:31-34 KJV‬‬




    The last ot prophet .


    “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”
    **Malachi‬ *3:1‬ *KJV‬‬


    then 300-400 years pass, the next thing in the bible is the birth of Jesus, the next preaching in the bible is John the Baptist, preparing the way formjesus ministry.....as soon as John is put in prison....Jesus begins speaking the new covenant......


    tho old had come to pass the moment he died. Just like Moses first spoke all the law to the people, and then he shed the blood of that covenant ( animals blood) and sprinkled it on the people and the book.


    Jesus did the same with the new covenant, he first preached all the gospel, then he shed the blood of the new covenant which put his testimony in authority. Everything begins for Christians, with Jesus Christ, the ot is all true and wonderful to,teach us right and wrong, to teach us about Gods character, his mercy, justice, wrath, faithfulness to his word.....but it is not our covenant with God, the gospel is.


    After his resurrection, he says this so we don't miss who's word we are bound to who's word we preach and hope in


    “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:18-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    the Christian doctrine is the gospel, it's like the law of Moses, and the epistles are like the prophets they are giving insight into the law of Christ, the gospel. And also they are prophesying for future things, even the destruction of the whole earth and a new heaven and earth......not promising a nation on the Middle East, but an entirely new creation after the end of this one.......we have something so much better in Christ than they had in Moses.


    just wanted to,offer this for consideration not meant to create argument. I think if we can always be willing to consider things maybe someone else can highlight, it's better than being stuck in things we " already know" we grow when we consider things we don't know and test them against the scripture.


    God god bless you indeed

  2. #2
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    If they broke the covenant this would happen...

    ....


    “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

    After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

    **Jeremiah‬ *31:31-34 KJV‬‬




    The last ot prophet .


    “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”
    **Malachi‬ *3:1‬ *KJV‬‬


    then 300-400 years pass, the next thing in the bible is the birth of Jesus, the next preaching in the bible is John the Baptist, preparing the way formjesus ministry.....as soon as John is put in prison....Jesus begins speaking the new covenant......


    tho old had come to pass the moment he died. Just like Moses first spoke all the law to the people, and then he shed the blood of that covenant ( animals blood) and sprinkled it on the people and the book.


    Jesus did the same with the new covenant, he first preached all the gospel, then he shed the blood of the new covenant which put his testimony in authority. Everything begins for Christians, with Jesus Christ, the ot is all true and wonderful to,teach us right and wrong, to teach us about Gods character, his mercy, justice, wrath, faithfulness to his word.....but it is not our covenant with God, the gospel is.


    After his resurrection, he says this so we don't miss who's word we are bound to who's word we preach and hope in


    “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:18-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    the Christian doctrine is the gospel, it's like the law of Moses, and the epistles are like the prophets they are giving insight into the law of Christ, the gospel. And also they are prophesying for future things, even the destruction of the whole earth and a new heaven and earth......not promising a nation on the Middle East, but an entirely new creation after the end of this one.......we have something so much better in Christ than they had in Moses.


    just wanted to,offer this for consideration not meant to create argument. I think if we can always be willing to consider things maybe someone else can highlight, it's better than being stuck in things we " already know" we grow when we consider things we don't know and test them against the scripture.


    God god bless you indeed
    This subject has been discussed at length - and multiple times on this Forum. Here are my observations.

    The New Covenant is predicted, as you have shown above, by Jeremiah in Chapter 31. It is again confirmed in the Book of Hebrews Chapter 8. I present the pertinent text out of Jeremiah here for THREE reasons. Jeremiah 31:27-36;

    27 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
    28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
    29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
    30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."


    1. The first reason is that the words of Jeremiah, a Jewish Prophet, writing and speaking to the Jews, in Hebrew (Except Chapter 10 verse 11), about the fate of Jews CLEARLY say that the new Covenant is with the House of ISRAEL and the House of JUDAH - not the Church
    2. The second reason is that this Covenant is a Covenant OF LAW (vs.33), and the Church is warned to leave the Law. Galatians 5:4 says to the Churches in Galatia; "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
    3. The third reason is that According to multiple verses in the new Testament, like Ephesians 3:5 and 9, that the Church was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets. So Jeremiah could not have been predicting things fr the Church

    The reason that Christians sometimes think that the New Covenant is applicable to the Church is because our Lord Jesus INCLUDED it in His presentation of His blood at the so-called Last Supper. But the blood of our Lord Jesus is for MANY things. It is for ...
    1. The sin (singular) of the WORLD (Jn.1:29)
    2. It is for the sins (trespasses - plural) of the WORLD (1st Jn.2.2)
    3. It is for the sins of Israel (Lk.1:68)
    4. It is for the recovery of the earth. Abel's blood caused the earth to be cursed and Christ's blood will undo this curse (Heb.12:24; Rom.8:20-22)
    5. And it to RATIFY the New Covenant.

    All Covenants made between God and fallen man must be RATIFIED in blood (Heb.9:18-23). The Covenant of the Rainbow with ALL FLESH (Gen.9:17) is RATIFIED by Noah's sacrifice. The Covenant of Promise with Abraham is RATIFIED by blood (Genesis 15). And the Covenant of Sinai - that of Law, was RATIFIED by blood (Ex.24:8). The New Covenant of LAW, made with COMBINED Israel, is RATIFIED in Christ's blood. The Covenant is RATIFIED, but will only be IN FORCE when the House of Israel (the ten Northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (the two Southern Tribes) are UNITED as predicted in Ezekiel 37.

    • The New Covenant is ONLY with RESTORED Israel
    • The New Covenant is one of LAW
    • The New Covenant is ALREADY ratified
    • The New Covenant will only be in force when Israel is gathered from dispersion and restored as one nation to their Land

  3. #3

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    This subject has been discussed at length - and multiple times on this Forum. Here are my observations.

    The New Covenant is predicted, as you have shown above, by Jeremiah in Chapter 31. It is again confirmed in the Book of Hebrews Chapter 8. I present the pertinent text out of Jeremiah here for THREE reasons. Jeremiah 31:27-36;

    27 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
    28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
    29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
    30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."


    1. The first reason is that the words of Jeremiah, a Jewish Prophet, writing and speaking to the Jews, in Hebrew (Except Chapter 10 verse 11), about the fate of Jews CLEARLY say that the new Covenant is with the House of ISRAEL and the House of JUDAH - not the Church
    2. The second reason is that this Covenant is a Covenant OF LAW (vs.33), and the Church is warned to leave the Law. Galatians 5:4 says to the Churches in Galatia; "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
    3. The third reason is that According to multiple verses in the new Testament, like Ephesians 3:5 and 9, that the Church was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets. So Jeremiah could not have been predicting things fr the Church

    The reason that Christians sometimes think that the New Covenant is applicable to the Church is because our Lord Jesus INCLUDED it in His presentation of His blood at the so-called Last Supper. But the blood of our Lord Jesus is for MANY things. It is for ...
    1. The sin (singular) of the WORLD (Jn.1:29)
    2. It is for the sins (trespasses - plural) of the WORLD (1st Jn.2.2)
    3. It is for the sins of Israel (Lk.1:68)
    4. It is for the recovery of the earth. Abel's blood caused the earth to be cursed and Christ's blood will undo this curse (Heb.12:24; Rom.8:20-22)
    5. And it to RATIFY the New Covenant.

    All Covenants made between God and fallen man must be RATIFIED in blood (Heb.9:18-23). The Covenant of the Rainbow with ALL FLESH (Gen.9:17) is RATIFIED by Noah's sacrifice. The Covenant of Promise with Abraham is RATIFIED by blood (Genesis 15). And the Covenant of Sinai - that of Law, was RATIFIED by blood (Ex.24:8). The New Covenant of LAW, made with COMBINED Israel, is RATIFIED in Christ's blood. The Covenant is RATIFIED, but will only be IN FORCE when the House of Israel (the ten Northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (the two Southern Tribes) are UNITED as predicted in Ezekiel 37.

    • The New Covenant is ONLY with RESTORED Israel
    • The New Covenant is one of LAW
    • The New Covenant is ALREADY ratified
    • The New Covenant will only be in force when Israel is gathered from dispersion and restored as one nation to their Land

    yeah well I haven't been here much so I wrote about it again....


    and have many different views from you.

    that said, I appreciate you taking the time to leave your thoughts, God bless you indeed.

  4. #4

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Possibly this may help.

    “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

    But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
    **Galatians‬ *4:22-26, 28, 30-31‬ *KJV‬‬


    Paul literally says plainly hagars son Ishmael represents the first covenant, the one Moses gave at horeb on Sinai in the desert, that's the Old Testament. Hagar was a servant of Sarai. Sarai doubted that she could bear a child so she had Abraham bear a son with her servant Hagar. He was born not by Gods promise, but by Sarai's will.

    Isaac, was born in a miraculous way only based on Gods promise to Abraham, it wasn't Sarah's idea, or Abrahams, but Gods promise and Abraham believed God and isaac was born when they were both past age to bear children.

    the covenant at horeb is like Ishmael , he was never to share in isaacs inheritance. The first covenant doesn't lead to inheritance of the kingdom of God, it is born of bondage. The new covenant, like Isaac is freedom and promise and faith.

  5. #5
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    yeah well I haven't been here much so I wrote about it again....

    ....
    Actually, they say that repetition is the mother of learning. I welcome the exchange.

    I would just like to add that what is difficult to understand for many Christians is why, when our Lord Jesus fulfilled the Law, it will be enforced in Israel again after their restoration in the Millennial Kingdom. The reason is TWOFOLD;
    1. In Romans 9:3-4 Paul talks about his "brethren according to the flesh" ... "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises". Israel were offered grace, and they refused it. They were offered their Messiah and they refused Him. That leaves them STILL UNDER COVENANT. If you and I made a Contract (Covenant) and one of us reneged, the Covenant does not fall away. Its penalties come into full force. So we see Israel, still under Covenant today, suffering all the curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. The restoration of Israel does not annul a Covenant, but the Covenant can be IMPROVED (Heb.8:6). The weakness of the Covenant of Law of Sinai was that it (i) addressed the flesh (Rom.7:25, 8:3), and (ii) it was written OUTSIDE of man on stone tables. The New Covenant has the same content - the Law, but (i) it is written on the hearts of men - inwardly, and (ii) the Israelites will receive new hearts and new spirits (Ezek.11:19, 18:31, 36:26)
    2. While our Lord Jesus fulfilled the Law in every respect, Israel DID NOT. So Matthew 5:17-18 says; "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Here, according to the grammar, there are TWO "fulfillings" of the Law. In verse 17 our Lord promises the fulfill the Law, but in verse 18 He sets forth a TIME (till heaven and earth pass) "till ALL be fulfilled". The first "fulfilling of the Law" was achieved by Christ, BUT ISRAEL DID NOT FULFILL THE LAW. So a TIME is set by which time the Law is to be fulfilled by ALL those under it. Heaven and earth pass at the end of the Millennium, so Israel, restored to their Land, with new hearts and spirits, with a New Covenant, are in the position to fulfill it. Let us show and example:

    In Luke 22:7-16 our Lord Feasted His last Passover. Notice that the animal had to be killed (v.7) and eaten (v.8). Then, after a room is found in which to do this, our Lord Jesus says, in verses 15-16, "... With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." By the "Kingdom of God" we understand that time when God will rule the earth through Jesus - the Millennium. It certainly could not be the Church age for (i) the Gentiles still have their time of rule, and (ii) the Church does not have the Passover to kill and eat. That means that when Christ returns and sets up God's Kingdom on earth, and Israel is restored, the Passover WILL BE KILLED AND EATEN! And concerning this our Lord Jesus says that ONLY THEN will it be FULFILLED. For us Christians, Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover, but Israel have not yet feasted this Passover in a way that fulfilled what it meant. Christ fulfilled the Passover 2,000 years ago, but Israel, under Law in the Millennium, will ONLY fulfill it then. Likewise, Christ has fulfilled the Law, but Israel refused Christ. So this fulfillment does not apply to them. They must wait until the Millennium to fulfill it THEMSELVES.

    In my first posting I quoted Jeremiah 31:27-36. I did this on purpose to include verse 36. It reads; "If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." Israel was given "those ordinances" at Sinai, and broke them. Thus, they ceased being a nation and were dispersed. Now, Jeremiah 31 predicts that the House of Israel (ten northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (two southern Tribes) will be united (as many other prophets predict). And then Israel are given the Law again, but under new and better circumstances. They are written inwardly on the heart and the Israelites are given new hearts and new spirits. It will not happen, but God, in verse 36, threatens that IF "these ordinances" ARE BROKEN under the New Covenant, Israel will cease to be "FOR EVER". The Covenant of Promise, given to Abraham, promises that Israel will get their Land. The Covenant of Law, given at Sinai, is so that Israel can STAY in the Land (Deut.4:23-27, 40, etc.). Israel broke it and adopted the habits of the Canaanites who were thrown out of the Good Land. So they too were thrown out of the Land. The New Covenant of Law will ensure that they are never thrown out of the Land again.

    Go well brother.

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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Something to think about and perhaps to discuss.

    I do not see Israel of being under any covenant except the new covenant. My reason for saying this is that a covenant was everlasting until death. Now in Jesus being God we had the end of the old in His death on the cross, but we also have the beginning of the new. He said that His blood flowed for the new covenant. I therefore can not agree fully with you saying that Israel is still part of the covenant, except if it is through the new covenant which is by grace and faith.

  7. #7
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Possibly this may help.

    “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

    But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
    **Galatians‬ *4:22-26, 28, 30-31‬ *KJV‬‬


    Paul literally says plainly hagars son Ishmael represents the first covenant, the one Moses gave at horeb on Sinai in the desert, that's the Old Testament. Hagar was a servant of Sarai. Sarai doubted that she could bear a child so she had Abraham bear a son with her servant Hagar. He was born not by Gods promise, but by Sarai's will.

    Isaac, was born in a miraculous way only based on Gods promise to Abraham, it wasn't Sarah's idea, or Abrahams, but Gods promise and Abraham believed God and isaac was born when they were both past age to bear children.

    the covenant at horeb is like Ishmael , he was never to share in isaacs inheritance. The first covenant doesn't lead to inheritance of the kingdom of God, it is born of bondage. The new covenant, like Isaac is freedom and promise and faith.
    All you have written is correct. But WHICH COVENANTS are being compared? The text reads in Galatians 4:24-29;

    24 "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."


    The ALLEGORY of Ishmael and Isaac DO NOT COMPARE THE COVENANT OF HOREB AND THE NEW COVENANT OF JEREMIAH 31! The COMPARE the Covenant of PROMISE made with Abraham and the Covenant of LAW made with Israel.

    God made a Covenant with Abraham that his seed would gain the Land of Canaan. Later, Abraham, through the efforts of his flesh, had Ishmael. This is Abrahan's seed and HEIR APPARENT, Ishmael being the FIRSTBORN. But God refuses the efforts of the flesh for His purposes. So Isaac is born "by the Spirit" because Sarah is barren. And God says in Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7 and Hebrews 11:18, "... for in Isaac shall thy seed be called." This is because in Genesis 17:19 God established WHICH SEED of Abraham's He would make the Covenant of Promise with. (Remember, Abraham was "father of many nations" and only ONE of them was chosen to gain Canaan.) It reads; "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."

    Thus, the Covenant for the GAINING OF THE LAND is made with men who came by the efforts of the SPIRIT. This is the Church. By their BIRTH they inherit the earth. Israel, in bondage to the LAW, which demands the efforts of the FLESH, CANNOT INHERIT. 1st Corinthians 15:50 says; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
    1. Israel refuse Christ and call the Holy Spirit Beelzebub. They remain under Law and in bondage to this Law, just as Ishmael was born in slavery because his mother was a slave
    2. The Church (the Galatians) embrace Christ, are born of the Holy Spirit and are thus, being Christ's (a Seed of Abraham) FREE OF LAW and FREE TO INHERIT THE EARTH (Gal.3:29; Rom.4:13)

    The Book of Galatians is written because some "false brethren" came to their Churches and taught that while one must be born again by the Holy Spirit, they must be matured and made righteous by KEEPING THE LAW. The whole Book CONTRASTS the bondage of the Law and its inability to make one mature (perfected), and the liberty of the Holy Spirit as our maturer (2nd Cor.3:18). Ishmael Typifies the Covenant of Law, but Isaac does NOT TYPIFY the New Covenant. He TYPIFIES the Covenant made with Abraham - that of Promise!

  8. #8
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Something to think about and perhaps to discuss.

    I do not see Israel of being under any covenant except the new covenant. My reason for saying this is that a covenant was everlasting until death. Now in Jesus being God we had the end of the old in His death on the cross, but we also have the beginning of the new. He said that His blood flowed for the new covenant. I therefore can not agree fully with you saying that Israel is still part of the covenant, except if it is through the new covenant which is by grace and faith.
    You are basically correct. The Covenant of Horeb is valid until death, for death ends a Covenant (1st Cor.7:39), and the Covenant of Horeb addresses the flesh. But my comments that Israel is till under the Covenant of Horeb is directed at the living Israelites. Are they not dispersed till today? Do they no live in fear. Do not Gentiles rule over them in the countries of their dispersion? Have they a king from the House of David ruling them today in Palestine? No. The curses of Mount Horeb are still with them today. Those who are dead are free from Law. But the question is, what will be their status when they are resurrected?

    Ezekiel 37 is THE Chapter of Israel's resurrection and gathering together. In verses 11-12 is the first summary of this;

    11 "Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."


    The second summary, or explanation of the vision of the sticks is given in verses 21-24. Note verse 24.

    21 "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
    23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."


    That is, those of Israel who are alive now are suffering the CURSES given at Horeb. We can see it before our eyes. Then, when a Jew dies, he is not subject to Horeb, for death of the flesh annuls a Covenant of flesh - like human marriage. The question will be; what is his status after resurrection? He will be under the New Covenant of the same "statutes" - but this time he will keep them and never be thrown out of his Land again.

    The Church was NEVER under the Covenant of Horeb. It was made exclusively with Israel (Ex.34:27). But by virtue of being IN Christ, and being Christ's by BIRTH, we are in line for the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham. As to the Law, Christ fulfilled it and the righteusness of this fulfilled Law is not REQUIRED of us, but IMPUTED to us because we are IN Christ.

    TWO things are crucial to see concerning the New Covenant:
    1. It is more than clearly said that it is with COMBINED Israel - ONE NATION. The Church is not mentioned
    2. It is already RATIFIED before God by the blood of Jesus, but will only be INITIATED when Israel is ONE nation again IN their Land

  9. #9
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You are basically correct. The Covenant of Horeb is valid until death, for death ends a Covenant (1st Cor.7:39), and the Covenant of Horeb addresses the flesh. But my comments that Israel is till under the Covenant of Horeb is directed at the living Israelites. Are they not dispersed till today? Do they no live in fear. Do not Gentiles rule over them in the countries of their dispersion? Have they a king from the House of David ruling them today in Palestine? No. The curses of Mount Horeb are still with them today. Those who are dead are free from Law. But the question is, what will be their status when they are resurrected?

    Ezekiel 37 is THE Chapter of Israel's resurrection and gathering together. In verses 11-12 is the first summary of this;

    11 "Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."


    The second summary, or explanation of the vision of the sticks is given in verses 21-24. Note verse 24.

    21 "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
    23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."


    That is, those of Israel who are alive now are suffering the CURSES given at Horeb. We can see it before our eyes. Then, when a Jew dies, he is not subject to Horeb, for death of the flesh annuls a Covenant of flesh - like human marriage. The question will be; what is his status after resurrection? He will be under the New Covenant of the same "statutes" - but this time he will keep them and never be thrown out of his Land again.

    The Church was NEVER under the Covenant of Horeb. It was made exclusively with Israel (Ex.34:27). But by virtue of being IN Christ, and being Christ's by BIRTH, we are in line for the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham. As to the Law, Christ fulfilled it and the righteusness of this fulfilled Law is not REQUIRED of us, but IMPUTED to us because we are IN Christ.

    TWO things are crucial to see concerning the New Covenant:
    1. It is more than clearly said that it is with COMBINED Israel - ONE NATION. The Church is not mentioned
    2. It is already RATIFIED before God by the blood of Jesus, but will only be INITIATED when Israel is ONE nation again IN their Land
    To me you can only be resurrected in Christ. The old covenant is dead and of no effect today. Do Israel have a king today? Yes. The fact that they do not recognize Him do not make that He is not their king. Pontius Pilate made it clear with the sign on the cross and this King is alive today.

  10. #10
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    To me you can only be resurrected in Christ.
    Correct. 1st Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive". That includes Hitler and king Saul. "ALL" is "ALL" who dies IN Adam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    The old covenant is dead and of no effect today.
    You must be very isolated. The terms of the Covenant of Law are, in Leviticus 26:36-39;

    36 "And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
    37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
    38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
    39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them."


    Ever heard of the holocaust? Ever heard of the pogroms? I quote the "Times of Israel" newspaper of recent;

    "Pittsburgh shooting is latest in series of recent attacks on Jewish institutions. From Seattle to Toulouse to Istanbul, attackers, whether neo-Nazis or jihadists, have repeatedly targeted synagogues, schools and community centers (28 October 2018, 8:24 am)

    A man kneels to light a candle beneath a police cordon outside the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, after a shooting there left 11 people dead on October 27, 2018 (Brendan Smialowski / AFP)"


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Do Israel have a king today? Yes. The fact that they do not recognize Him do not make that He is not their king. Pontius Pilate made it clear with the sign on the cross and this King is alive today.
    And where is His palace? What was His latest decree from the Capital City? Was He obeyed? Does a king rule by the people's consensus, or is He crowned by God? The last I heard from Israel was
    1. God said you are "LO-ammi" - you are NOT my people (Hos.1:9)
    2. that in the presence of Pilate, it was Pilate who proclaimed Him King. This was the answer from Israel;

    14 "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he (Pilate) saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
    15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar"
    (John 19:14-15)

    But what think ye of Ezekiel 37 in my last posting. It is future, for Israel has not been resurrected, nor gathered from their dispersion and in verse 24, when it happens, DAVID will rule over them? How? David is dead and buried (Act.2:29)!

  11. #11
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Correct. 1st Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive". That includes Hitler and king Saul. "ALL" is "ALL" who dies IN Adam.
    I do not agree. All died in Adam because of sin. We know no one is without sin and therefore is it true that all had died in Adam. Yet it is only the believers who are made alive in Christ. None being made alive is without Christ and therefore is it true to say that all is made alive in Christ, but this is of the believers not of the unbelievers. At Christ's second coming all will be resurrected, some to life and other to death.

    You must be very isolated. The terms of the Covenant of Law are, in Leviticus 26:36-39;

    36 "And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
    37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
    38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
    39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them."


    Ever heard of the holocaust? Ever heard of the pogroms? I quote the "Times of Israel" newspaper of recent;

    "Pittsburgh shooting is latest in series of recent attacks on Jewish institutions. From Seattle to Toulouse to Istanbul, attackers, whether neo-Nazis or jihadists, have repeatedly targeted synagogues, schools and community centers (28 October 2018, 8:24 am)

    A man kneels to light a candle beneath a police cordon outside the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, after a shooting there left 11 people dead on October 27, 2018 (Brendan Smialowski / AFP)"
    I think it is stretching to connect this with the old covenant which is dead and of no effect. This is unfortunate and despicable as is the Rwandan genocide, the Greek, Assyrian and Armenian genocide in the Ottoman empire. There are many more in the history of the world with famine and natural disasters and plagues and sickness also aplenty. That being said I do not dismiss the curses of the old covenant, I only believe it all were fulfilled with the last one at 70 AD.

    And where is His palace? What was His latest decree from the Capital City? Was He obeyed? Does a king rule by the people's consensus, or is He crowned by God? The last I heard from Israel was
    1. God said you are "LO-ammi" - you are NOT my people (Hos.1:9)
    2. that in the presence of Pilate, it was Pilate who proclaimed Him King. This was the answer from Israel;

    14 "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he (Pilate) saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
    15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar"
    (John 19:14-15)

    But what think ye of Ezekiel 37 in my last posting. It is future, for Israel has not been resurrected, nor gathered from their dispersion and in verse 24, when it happens, DAVID will rule over them? How? David is dead and buried (Act.2:29)!
    Where is His kingdom? It is inside of you. Our God do not need a palace for all belongs to Him. Still He said that He will come to us and dwell with us in the new city of Jerusalem. This is our hope and the promised land we are promised to inherit.

    To me it is not future. The only future is Christ's second coming and judgments and then the NHNE and the new Jerusalem.

  12. #12
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Possibly this may help.

    “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

    But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
    **Galatians‬ *4:22-26, 28, 30-31‬ *KJV‬‬


    Paul literally says plainly hagars son Ishmael represents the first covenant, the one Moses gave at horeb on Sinai in the desert, that's the Old Testament. Hagar was a servant of Sarai. Sarai doubted that she could bear a child so she had Abraham bear a son with her servant Hagar. He was born not by Gods promise, but by Sarai's will.

    Isaac, was born in a miraculous way only based on Gods promise to Abraham, it wasn't Sarah's idea, or Abrahams, but Gods promise and Abraham believed God and isaac was born when they were both past age to bear children.

    the covenant at horeb is like Ishmael , he was never to share in isaacs inheritance. The first covenant doesn't lead to inheritance of the kingdom of God, it is born of bondage. The new covenant, like Isaac is freedom and promise and faith.
    scripturally you are way out there in left field, "your view or views" are simply your opinion and we all know opinions are like backsides everyone has one. what is to be sot is the Truth which isn't a opinion, its what God says and does in this case.

    the "covenants" that have any meaning to the Almighty is Adam, Noah, Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, David, and Jesus Christ, which is the fulfillment of all before to God's satisfaction that no one could do but Jesus Christ, on purpose. the Maker of man knows man cannot fulfill the covenants, only the only begotten Son of God can.




    one could include the law or ten commandments but they seem to be more important to those who seek fault in others then it does with the Lord God seeing He was able to make covenant with those of His chosen without the law, but the Torah has its place in the list of covenants seeing a nation is a established with it.
    Let there be Light

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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I do not agree. All died in Adam because of sin. We know no one is without sin and therefore is it true that all had died in Adam. Yet it is only the believers who are made alive in Christ. None being made alive is without Christ and therefore is it true to say that all is made alive in Christ, but this is of the believers not of the unbelievers. At Christ's second coming all will be resurrected, some to life and other to death.



    I think it is stretching to connect this with the old covenant which is dead and of no effect. This is unfortunate and despicable as is the Rwandan genocide, the Greek, Assyrian and Armenian genocide in the Ottoman empire. There are many more in the history of the world with famine and natural disasters and plagues and sickness also aplenty. That being said I do not dismiss the curses of the old covenant, I only believe it all were fulfilled with the last one at 70 AD.



    Where is His kingdom? It is inside of you. Our God do not need a palace for all belongs to Him. Still He said that He will come to us and dwell with us in the new city of Jerusalem. This is our hope and the promised land we are promised to inherit.

    To me it is not future. The only future is Christ's second coming and judgments and then the NHNE and the new Jerusalem.
    To me you can only be resurrected in Christ. The old covenant is dead and of no effect today. Does Israel have a king today? Yes. The fact that they do not recognize Him do not make that He is not their king. Pontius Pilate made it clear with the sign on the cross and this King is alive today
    Precisely. ........ ...
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.



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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I do not agree. All died in Adam because of sin. We know no one is without sin and therefore is it true that all had died in Adam. Yet it is only the believers who are made alive in Christ. None being made alive is without Christ and therefore is it true to say that all is made alive in Christ, but this is of the believers not of the unbelievers. At Christ's second coming all will be resurrected, some to life and other to death.



    I think it is stretching to connect this with the old covenant which is dead and of no effect. This is unfortunate and despicable as is the Rwandan genocide, the Greek, Assyrian and Armenian genocide in the Ottoman empire. There are many more in the history of the world with famine and natural disasters and plagues and sickness also aplenty. That being said I do not dismiss the curses of the old covenant, I only believe it all were fulfilled with the last one at 70 AD.



    Where is His kingdom? It is inside of you. Our God do not need a palace for all belongs to Him. Still He said that He will come to us and dwell with us in the new city of Jerusalem. This is our hope and the promised land we are promised to inherit.

    To me it is not future. The only future is Christ's second coming and judgments and then the NHNE and the new Jerusalem.
    Thank you for your reply. Our appreciation of language and its grammar is so far apart that I fear it would be fruitless to continue. Nevertheless, God bless.

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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your reply. Our appreciation of language and its grammar is so far apart that I fear it would be fruitless to continue. Nevertheless, God bless.
    .

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