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Thread: Consideration of two covenants

  1. #46
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    I grew up being taught that the Law was a good moral standard, and yet an instrument of death. It confused me, later on, when I discovered Psalm 119 and the praises being sung on behalf of the Law. How can something so glorious, so beautiful, be an "instrument of death?"

    I came to discover, over time, that the Law was actually a picture of Jesus, who produces righteousness in us and yet died for our sins. All we have to do is to yield to his righteousness, and let his cross be the legal atonement for our sins. Many of the "shadows" of the Law were merely pictures of what only Christ could do for us. It was Israel's job to simply portray that need for Christ's redemption. There is no longer any need to portray the need for something that is already done.

    It is, in my view, a very respectful thing to view the Law as a picture of Christ's righteousness, and yet get beyond the shadows to Grace. We must live in righteousness and love. But we no longer need to show our inadequacies under the Law. We've been redeemed. No need for temple, priesthood, or sacrifice. No need for festival, Sabbath, or circumcision. No need for special foods, nor for division between us and pagan nations. We can unite all nations in the righteousness of Christ when we defer to him, and abandon our sins.

  2. #47

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I grew up being taught that the Law was a good moral standard, and yet an instrument of death. It confused me, later on, when I discovered Psalm 119 and the praises being sung on behalf of the Law. How can something so glorious, so beautiful, be an "instrument of death?"

    I came to discover, over time, that the Law was actually a picture of Jesus, who produces righteousness in us and yet died for our sins. All we have to do is to yield to his righteousness, and let his cross be the legal atonement for our sins. Many of the "shadows" of the Law were merely pictures of what only Christ could do for us. It was Israel's job to simply portray that need for Christ's redemption. There is no longer any need to portray the need for something that is already done.

    It is, in my view, a very respectful thing to view the Law as a picture of Christ's righteousness, and yet get beyond the shadows to Grace. We must live in righteousness and love. But we no longer need to show our inadequacies under the Law. We've been redeemed. No need for temple, priesthood, or sacrifice. No need for festival, Sabbath, or circumcision. No need for special foods, nor for division between us and pagan nations. We can unite all nations in the righteousness of Christ when we defer to him, and abandon our sins.
    the law in my view, pales in comparison, the righteousness in the law is as Paul says, dung, and loss compared to Christs. It's not a magical thing however it's something we seek after, we need to abide in his doctrine. Here's what some of the apostles say about this matter.

    “Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
    **John‬ *7:16-17‬ *KJV‬‬


    "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
    **2 John‬ *1:9-10‬ *KJV‬‬

    If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
    **1 Timothy‬ *6:3-5‬ *KJV

    “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness....

    But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
    **Romans‬ *6:15-18, 22-23‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
    **John‬ *8:31-36‬ *KJV

    the doctrine of Jesus , his teachings we need those above everything in order to be set free, Peter also says it obeying the truth is what imparts righteousness. when a person studies witchcraft long enough, those teachings impart an evil spirit, the wrong ideas and thoughts which become part of the mind and heart.......same thing with the gospel. We need to,either study or hear someone who understands which things to teach. The gospel, all the gospel it's where we see his face, where we learn his heart and mind.

    “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
    **John‬ *6:63‬ *KJV‬‬


    to yield to his righteousness, we first have to understand what it is he teaches....it sure isn't Moses doctrine.

  3. #48

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I grew up being taught that the Law was a good moral standard, and yet an instrument of death. It confused me, later on, when I discovered Psalm 119 and the praises being sung on behalf of the Law. How can something so glorious, so beautiful, be an "instrument of death?"

    I came to discover, over time, that the Law was actually a picture of Jesus, who produces righteousness in us and yet died for our sins. All we have to do is to yield to his righteousness, and let his cross be the legal atonement for our sins. Many of the "shadows" of the Law were merely pictures of what only Christ could do for us. It was Israel's job to simply portray that need for Christ's redemption. There is no longer any need to portray the need for something that is already done.

    It is, in my view, a very respectful thing to view the Law as a picture of Christ's righteousness, and yet get beyond the shadows to Grace. We must live in righteousness and love. But we no longer need to show our inadequacies under the Law. We've been redeemed. No need for temple, priesthood, or sacrifice. No need for festival, Sabbath, or circumcision. No need for special foods, nor for division between us and pagan nations. We can unite all nations in the righteousness of Christ when we defer to him, and abandon our sins.

    the law is holy, it's just not meant for the redeemed of God, it's meant for sinners .

    “But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
    **1 Timothy‬ *1:8-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    the law came to those Unspiritual people, sold as slaves to sin. They knew every word of the law, but they couldn't obey it, thier hearts were contrary to the holy law, it was meant to reveal sin in mankind. Think about it what happens when sinful people receive a holy law and are commanded to keep it to the letter ? The effect because men had been corrupted in the heart...is this


    “But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

    For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

    Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


    I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
    **Romans‬ *7:8-14, 18-19, 21-24‬ *KJV‬‬


    Thats the end result of Moses law, to,reveal sin for what it is, and to make us understand the law is good, we are not we were sold into sin by Adam. The law brings us to,that point and then the law of the spirit of,life in Christ, sets us free, inwardly so we are able to walk out the truth of righteousness, the things Jesus taught us, true tangible love in action when others need, real godly love laying ourself down for the sake of others.....


    The law is essential, but it has its purpose once it brings us to Jesus this way, it has no more redemptive value, still is good for learning right and wrong, but no help to,us who need to do the right things willingly without grievance.

  4. #49
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    Aug 2011
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    bro I don't disagree with the scripture, your conclusion that the new covenant didn't begin with Christ, that's where I disagree. The things you have offered don't show what you are saying, to me anyways, I understand what you see, but I think you are over examining things laid bare that just need acceptance and not so much figuring out. I'm sort of where you are in this, you aren't really addressing the many things I've shown you in scripture either, we may need to just let it sit awhile.
    OK. Now you have stated it clearly. My arguments for the TIME that the New Covenant was RATIFIED, and the TIME that the New Covenant comes into EFFECT, are in my first posting - posting #2. The TIME that the New Covenant was RATIFIED was on Golgotha where Christ shed His blood. The TIME that the New Covenant comes into effect is "that day" when the House of Israel (ten northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (the two southern Tribes) are ONE NATION again, and one nation IN THEIR LAND. Since we both know that this has not yet happened, the INSTITUTION of the New Covenant has not yet occurred. But the blood that RATIFIED the New Covenant has already been shed on Golgotha about 1,970 years ago. There is no problem with this. The Fist Covenant of Law was RATIFIED within TWO YEARS of Israel leaveing Egypt. But the Laws concerning Jerusalem came into EFFECT more than 40 years later and the Laws concerning their king came into EFFECT about 500 years later.

    here's my conclusion.

    “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake


    do you understand that's the giving of the mosaic covenant? I'll show you below


    But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:18-24‬ *KJV‬‬

    Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Do you agree? Very simple there right?

    “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
    **Hebrews‬ *13:20-21‬ *KJV‬‬

    whose blood was shed of the eternal covenant? When did that happen? And what was the purpose of shedding the blood?

    here's the first covenant being set into effect with blood of animals

    “And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.”

    the words of the law, and then the shedding of the blood of animals.

    Jesus preached all the gospel, made clear to everyone my words are Gods words, obey my words, keep my words, then Jesus the mediator shown above

    “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
    **Matthew‬ *26:28‬ *KJV‬‬


    then of course he went to the cross, shed his blood making the eternal covenant, .....the eternal covenant. His words, his blood, his life. There will never be a different one. There was the one at Sinai, mediated by Moses to the children of Israel, this covenant as I showed you before God said as he was giving it to them....Moses these people will turn to other gods and I will turn away and forsake them......after this, he promises a new covenant, forgiving sins...which you seem to be saying isn't the gospel ? When the gospel is about forgiveness of sins through his blood....again the mediator of the new.

    “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”
    **Hebrews‬ *9:15‬ *KJV‬‬


    The covenant likened to Isaac, the heir, not Ishmael who was sent away that he should not share the inheritance.




    I just think it's simple, the old covenant was meant to lead to the new all along, it's not as if God made a mistake and then decided to make a new, he told them all along they would brake it. You are saying " a covenant has to be a spoken agreement.....it doesn't that's the difference. Abrahams covenant was that of faith, God spoke to him he obeyed. That's what Peter and Paul both identify as the gospel covenant. Again as I have shown you in this thread.


    I'm thinking you are over examining, there's no way to God but through Christ and his gospel, his blood, his word, his resurrection that's the new covenant. As above says he is the mediator of the new covenant, so what is even your argument? You seem to think the church has no covenant.....yet would you say the forgiveness comes through his blood? If so......what are you saying the blood of the new covenant, doesn't apply to the new covenant? It doesn't make sense to me brother what you are saying, that's all I mean to say, what the scripture says is those in Christ are in the new covenant, forgiven through his blood, whether gentile Christian, or Jewish Christian. There's no difference, all must come through faith alone. No other way.





    when Jesus did as Moses did, spoke all his word, said you must keep these things....then she'd his blood saying this is my blood in the New Testament which is shed for you.... That's where the covenant is, his words, then his blood shed for the remission of the first testament. You may say " wrote what you want" but what I'm saying is clearly written.

    “If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


    And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
    **Hebrews‬ *7:11-12, 15-19‬ *KJV‬‬




    Jesus words, changed the law, because the priesthood changed from levitical to melchezideks order, everything changed over when Jesus took his last breath, from earth, to the true things in heaven. The real priesthood is Jesus priesthood, the real law is Jesus word, the real covenant blood is his blood.....everything before was a foreshadow so he would make sense to them and us who learn long after.


    There's only the two covenants required by God for his people. I would study Hebrews, why do you think it's all about two covenants? One given through the prophets before, and one given through Gods son? If there's some other different covenant for Israelites.......I don't see it. Because I don't think it's there.


    agreed bro im glad to find someone who understands the value of not taking offense to enable discussion, we can't change people's ideas......but God can when the spirit of discussion is proper. God bless you.
    To this second section of your answer, your main argument seems to be that the New Covenant must be in force because of the repeated statements in scripture that it is, "the blood of the New Covenant" like Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1st Corinthians 11:25 and Hebrews 12:24. But not one verses addresses the TIME of INSTITUTION. It only addresses what the blood was for - the RATIFICATION of this new Covenant. You have taken your verses mostly from Hebrews - and it is well so. What is the Book of Hebrews about?

    The Book of Hebrews addresses those Christians who were once Jews, or better said - Hebrews, who had converted to Christianity. What had happened is that through persecution and loss of their worldly goods, they were in danger of slipping back to Moses and the Law. In Hebrews 10:32-35 we see the author's arguments. It reads:

    32 "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
    33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
    34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
    35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward."


    Under the Law of Moses, an Israelite who kept these Laws was blessed in material goods and protected from his enemies. Now the Isrealites had obeyed the gospel and embraced Jesus Christ. And all of a sudden, for doing this, they are hounded, hated and persecuted, and became poorer as their enemies took their goods. So the converted Hebrews said to themselves; "Man-o-man, under Moses we prospered and defeated our enemies. Under Jesus Christ we are suffering persecution and the loss of all our things! LET US RETURN TO MOSES!" So the whole Book of Hebrews is made of (i) the revelation of the SUPERIORITY of Christ to all things including Moses and the Angels, and (ii) FIVE dire warnings to the ex-Hebrew who went back to Moses. But in His argument, the Holy Spirit knows that you cannot shake 1,500 years of the culture of Moses off in a day, and the Holy Spirit knows that in the back of the Hebrew mind is always a question.

    The question is; "IF Israel has broken the Law, been evil in all things, been dispersed, been chastised, and after all this, still murdered their Messiah, WHAT CHANCE DO THEY HAVE OF RECOVERY?" So when the author of Hebrews addresses the blood of Jesus, He emphasizes Israel's RECOVERY and RESTITUTION TO THEIR LAND. This is the message of the Prophets, staring from Moses in Deuteronomy 30:1-5. The message is, "Israel are evil, Israel are warned of the consequences, Israel do not care and continue in their evil, Israel are chastised, but Israel will one day find favor with Jehovah AND BE RESTORED." So when the Holy Spirit mentions the blood of Jesus FOR ANY REASON, He takes the opportunity to remind ex-Jews that there will come "that day" mentioned in Jeremiah 31, where both Houses of Israel will be together, united, IN THEIR LAND with a brand New Covenant.

    If you read EVERY scripture concerning the blood of Christ, and every scripture concerning the "blood of the New Covenant", you will NOT find one that says the New Testament is now in force. Read every verse above that you posted. They are rich in revelation and content, but NOT ONE OF THEM SAY THAT THE NEW COVENANT IS ALREADY INSTITUTED. Those that address the "blood" of Jesus ONLY say what the BLOOD WAS FOR.

    I realize that contemporary Christianity teaches that the New Covenant is in force, that we are under it, and that it is a covenant of grace. But the pure Words of the Bible say;
    1. that the New Covenant will be made "IN THAT DAY" when the two Houses of Israel are together
    2. that the New Covenant is ONLY made with these two Houses of Israel
    3. that it is a Covenant of Law

    And if you are still not sure (because you will have to overturn what you have held for years maybe), ask yourself the following:
    1. If the Church gets a New Covenant, what was their Old one?
    2. If the Church gets a New Covenant, what are the conditions that both parties must hold to, and the penalties that will be applied?
    3. Were are the verses that tell of these things?

    Go well my brother.

  5. #50

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Now you have stated it clearly. My arguments for the TIME that the New Covenant was RATIFIED, and the TIME that the New Covenant comes into EFFECT, are in my first posting - posting #2. The TIME that the New Covenant was RATIFIED was on Golgotha where Christ shed His blood. The TIME that the New Covenant comes into effect is "that day" when the House of Israel (ten northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (the two southern Tribes) are ONE NATION again, and one nation IN THEIR LAND. Since we both know that this has not yet happened, the INSTITUTION of the New Covenant has not yet occurred. But the blood that RATIFIED the New Covenant has already been shed on Golgotha about 1,970 years ago. There is no problem with this. The Fist Covenant of Law was RATIFIED within TWO YEARS of Israel leaveing Egypt. But the Laws concerning Jerusalem came into EFFECT more than 40 years later and the Laws concerning their king came into EFFECT about 500 years later.



    To this second section of your answer, your main argument seems to be that the New Covenant must be in force because of the repeated statements in scripture that it is, "the blood of the New Covenant" like Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1st Corinthians 11:25 and Hebrews 12:24. But not one verses addresses the TIME of INSTITUTION. It only addresses what the blood was for - the RATIFICATION of this new Covenant. You have taken your verses mostly from Hebrews - and it is well so. What is the Book of Hebrews about?

    The Book of Hebrews addresses those Christians who were once Jews, or better said - Hebrews, who had converted to Christianity. What had happened is that through persecution and loss of their worldly goods, they were in danger of slipping back to Moses and the Law. In Hebrews 10:32-35 we see the author's arguments. It reads:

    32 "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
    33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
    34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
    35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward."


    Under the Law of Moses, an Israelite who kept these Laws was blessed in material goods and protected from his enemies. Now the Isrealites had obeyed the gospel and embraced Jesus Christ. And all of a sudden, for doing this, they are hounded, hated and persecuted, and became poorer as their enemies took their goods. So the converted Hebrews said to themselves; "Man-o-man, under Moses we prospered and defeated our enemies. Under Jesus Christ we are suffering persecution and the loss of all our things! LET US RETURN TO MOSES!" So the whole Book of Hebrews is made of (i) the revelation of the SUPERIORITY of Christ to all things including Moses and the Angels, and (ii) FIVE dire warnings to the ex-Hebrew who went back to Moses. But in His argument, the Holy Spirit knows that you cannot shake 1,500 years of the culture of Moses off in a day, and the Holy Spirit knows that in the back of the Hebrew mind is always a question.

    The question is; "IF Israel has broken the Law, been evil in all things, been dispersed, been chastised, and after all this, still murdered their Messiah, WHAT CHANCE DO THEY HAVE OF RECOVERY?" So when the author of Hebrews addresses the blood of Jesus, He emphasizes Israel's RECOVERY and RESTITUTION TO THEIR LAND. This is the message of the Prophets, staring from Moses in Deuteronomy 30:1-5. The message is, "Israel are evil, Israel are warned of the consequences, Israel do not care and continue in their evil, Israel are chastised, but Israel will one day find favor with Jehovah AND BE RESTORED." So when the Holy Spirit mentions the blood of Jesus FOR ANY REASON, He takes the opportunity to remind ex-Jews that there will come "that day" mentioned in Jeremiah 31, where both Houses of Israel will be together, united, IN THEIR LAND with a brand New Covenant.

    If you read EVERY scripture concerning the blood of Christ, and every scripture concerning the "blood of the New Covenant", you will NOT find one that says the New Testament is now in force. Read every verse above that you posted. They are rich in revelation and content, but NOT ONE OF THEM SAY THAT THE NEW COVENANT IS ALREADY INSTITUTED. Those that address the "blood" of Jesus ONLY say what the BLOOD WAS FOR.

    I realize that contemporary Christianity teaches that the New Covenant is in force, that we are under it, and that it is a covenant of grace. But the pure Words of the Bible say;
    1. that the New Covenant will be made "IN THAT DAY" when the two Houses of Israel are together
    2. that the New Covenant is ONLY made with these two Houses of Israel
    3. that it is a Covenant of Law

    And if you are still not sure (because you will have to overturn what you have held for years maybe), ask yourself the following:
    1. If the Church gets a New Covenant, what was their Old one?
    2. If the Church gets a New Covenant, what are the conditions that both parties must hold to, and the penalties that will be applied?
    3. Were are the verses that tell of these things?

    Go well my brother.

    brother, the old things are a figure, they aren't reality. Israel, is a figure of what was to come. God was never only the God of Israel. Taking them from Egypt, was the beginning of him redeeming those who would believe in Christ. Israel, is no different from any other nation, Gods elect are those in Christ.

    Theres no difference , there's believers in Christ, Jew, gentile, male female... Doesn't matter, the seed of Abraham are those who believe in Christ. It's not something we need to figure out, it's written plainly.

    even circumcision, was a figure the truth of circumcision happens in the new covenant not of the flesh, but the circumcision of the heart the removal of the sin in us, done by the gospel. This discussion has been pretty thorough, I'll remain in the new covenant mediated by the word of Christ, purchased with his blood, there is nothing to come, or nothing that applies before.

    do you understand the term mediator? There's only the one mediation between God and man. And it's not Moses mediation to the Israelites.

    “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
    **1 Timothy‬ *2:3-6‬ *KJV‬‬

    there's only the one mediator, what did he mediate?

    “And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:24-25‬ *KJV‬‬

    One, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, very plainly written in your bible also. Yet your argument is that he didn't mediate the new covenant?

    the blood of the new, matters because the covenant goes into effect when the one who spoke it dies. As soon as Jesus died, the covenant was the authority over all men forever. There's no other covenant to come, no other covenant Thant superceeds for any man, there's only the way, truth and life, whether gentile or Jew. Same gospel of the kingdom to Jew and gentile. Jesus is the new covenant.

    God bless you study Hebrews just for what it says throughout. And realize this regarding Abraham


    “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

    Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
    **Hebrews‬ *11:8-10, 12-16‬ *KJV‬‬

    “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *2:9‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”
    **Revelation‬ *21:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬


    Its not a restoration of the old thing, it's coming from the heavens, from God. There is natural Jerusalem, which had a man made temple, that was destroyed and rebuilt, then made desolate and utterly destroyed in ad 70. That temple will never be restored, it was only a pattern of the true temple in heaven where Jesus sits as high priest.







    the land Abraham was promised, he only saw from far away, it was a figure of the heaven,y city prepared by God for those of faith. We're as they were strangers and pilgrims in this world, the promised land has never been seen by our eyes, nor those eyes looking in Israel now, those things are part of the first creation, but as you probably know, all things are new. We no longer look to this earth, we look to the heavenly things the promises Jesus made.

    the new covenant begins with Christ, and will never change, be altered made of no effect, it's eternal. The restoration of Israel, is happening as we speak through the church, we are the seed of Abraham anyone Jew or gentile who belong to Christ Jesus. Isaac was a figure, of Christ.

    looking to the natural things is a fruitless view because

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:10-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    this earth all the cities and things in it are slated for utter destruction, it's not out home, there's no city of God here, it's in heaven where Jesus is siting at Gods right hand in the true temple , you seem to be waiting to be rebuilt. It's in heaven, that's where our high priest Jesus went, to make the true atonement and enter into the true holy of Holies......we in the new covenant, are waiting for our new home , this place is not where any restoration will happen, were of the heavenly, the thing Abraham was seeking in a figure.

    it was always about God redeeming the world, not choosing a small group, but offering salvation to all people of the earth, that's the promise in Genesis 12:3, the law separates Jew and gentile, it was fulfilled in Christ, there is no longer a distinction between us. As Paul states in another place, the dividing wall of hostility has been abolished. In Christ gentile and Jew means nothing, faith in him is what makes children of God.

    I hope to discuss a different subject bro, I don't think this one is even really a debate in my view, seems to be just plainly what it is. I've pretty much shown and said what I believe on the matter, as you have, but I simply disagree with your interpretations. What you are saying isn't there in context, it's why you have to explain so much that the word doesn't say.


    can you admit Jesus mediated the new covenant at least when it's so plainly stated in Hebrews 12:24-25? I mean that's just a straight forward statement. And if he mediated the new covenant? If you can , start there with the study realize why it begins telling of God speaking once in the past through prophets in various ways....and says " but in these last days he has spoken to us through his son.....

    those are the two covenants. Then realize, why Hebrews is distinguishing between the blood shed by Moses after speaking the first covenant at horeb....and the blood Jesus shed after speaking the gospel. ask why Jesus says heaven and earth will pass away, but his words will never pass away? Why does he say " this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to every corner of the earth as a witness, and then the end will come?

    some can't accept the gospel, because it requires them to give themselves to Christ. That's the covenant, the gospel, mediated by Jesus Christ, paid for with his blood , and sent to Jew, and gentile.

  6. #51

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Now you have stated it clearly. My arguments for the TIME that the New Covenant was RATIFIED, and the TIME that the New Covenant comes into EFFECT, are in my first posting - posting #2. The TIME that the New Covenant was RATIFIED was on Golgotha where Christ shed His blood. The TIME that the New Covenant comes into effect is "that day" when the House of Israel (ten northern Tribes) and the House of Judah (the two southern Tribes) are ONE NATION again, and one nation IN THEIR LAND. Since we both know that this has not yet happened, the INSTITUTION of the New Covenant has not yet occurred. But the blood that RATIFIED the New Covenant has already been shed on Golgotha about 1,970 years ago. There is no problem with this. The Fist Covenant of Law was RATIFIED within TWO YEARS of Israel leaveing Egypt. But the Laws concerning Jerusalem came into EFFECT more than 40 years later and the Laws concerning their king came into EFFECT about 500 years later.



    To this second section of your answer, your main argument seems to be that the New Covenant must be in force because of the repeated statements in scripture that it is, "the blood of the New Covenant" like Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1st Corinthians 11:25 and Hebrews 12:24. But not one verses addresses the TIME of INSTITUTION. It only addresses what the blood was for - the RATIFICATION of this new Covenant. You have taken your verses mostly from Hebrews - and it is well so. What is the Book of Hebrews about?

    The Book of Hebrews addresses those Christians who were once Jews, or better said - Hebrews, who had converted to Christianity. What had happened is that through persecution and loss of their worldly goods, they were in danger of slipping back to Moses and the Law. In Hebrews 10:32-35 we see the author's arguments. It reads:

    32 "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
    33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
    34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
    35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward."


    Under the Law of Moses, an Israelite who kept these Laws was blessed in material goods and protected from his enemies. Now the Isrealites had obeyed the gospel and embraced Jesus Christ. And all of a sudden, for doing this, they are hounded, hated and persecuted, and became poorer as their enemies took their goods. So the converted Hebrews said to themselves; "Man-o-man, under Moses we prospered and defeated our enemies. Under Jesus Christ we are suffering persecution and the loss of all our things! LET US RETURN TO MOSES!" So the whole Book of Hebrews is made of (i) the revelation of the SUPERIORITY of Christ to all things including Moses and the Angels, and (ii) FIVE dire warnings to the ex-Hebrew who went back to Moses. But in His argument, the Holy Spirit knows that you cannot shake 1,500 years of the culture of Moses off in a day, and the Holy Spirit knows that in the back of the Hebrew mind is always a question.

    The question is; "IF Israel has broken the Law, been evil in all things, been dispersed, been chastised, and after all this, still murdered their Messiah, WHAT CHANCE DO THEY HAVE OF RECOVERY?" So when the author of Hebrews addresses the blood of Jesus, He emphasizes Israel's RECOVERY and RESTITUTION TO THEIR LAND. This is the message of the Prophets, staring from Moses in Deuteronomy 30:1-5. The message is, "Israel are evil, Israel are warned of the consequences, Israel do not care and continue in their evil, Israel are chastised, but Israel will one day find favor with Jehovah AND BE RESTORED." So when the Holy Spirit mentions the blood of Jesus FOR ANY REASON, He takes the opportunity to remind ex-Jews that there will come "that day" mentioned in Jeremiah 31, where both Houses of Israel will be together, united, IN THEIR LAND with a brand New Covenant.

    If you read EVERY scripture concerning the blood of Christ, and every scripture concerning the "blood of the New Covenant", you will NOT find one that says the New Testament is now in force. Read every verse above that you posted. They are rich in revelation and content, but NOT ONE OF THEM SAY THAT THE NEW COVENANT IS ALREADY INSTITUTED. Those that address the "blood" of Jesus ONLY say what the BLOOD WAS FOR.

    I realize that contemporary Christianity teaches that the New Covenant is in force, that we are under it, and that it is a covenant of grace. But the pure Words of the Bible say;
    1. that the New Covenant will be made "IN THAT DAY" when the two Houses of Israel are together
    2. that the New Covenant is ONLY made with these two Houses of Israel
    3. that it is a Covenant of Law

    And if you are still not sure (because you will have to overturn what you have held for years maybe), ask yourself the following:
    1. If the Church gets a New Covenant, what was their Old one?
    2. If the Church gets a New Covenant, what are the conditions that both parties must hold to, and the penalties that will be applied?
    3. Were are the verses that tell of these things?

    Go well my brother.

    try this one just reading what Paul is saying, to understand the oneness between Jew and gentile where he's explaining, the division of Jew and gentile by law, is abolished and two made one


    “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;”
    **Ephesians‬ *2:11-16, 18-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    the restoration of Israel, and Judah, is a foreshadow , a figure of Jew and gentile being made one people before God, that is Jew, and non Jew. All people made one. There's no difference because we're in the new covenant mediated by Christ. Israel and Judah were part of the same plan it's purpose is to lead anyone who will believe to Jesus, there's no other mediator between God and man, just Jesus , no other blood that can atone for sins, just Jesus blood, no other gospel that can save, just Jesus gospel. There's nothing and no one unless we belong to Jesus.....and those who belong to Jesus gentile or Jew are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise.

    “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:26-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    look to the spiritual things brother, the old is the flesh, the new is the spirit, the flesh seed inherited a promised land, then were destroyed and cast from it because of thier rejection of Gods word. The spirit seed are promised a land beyond our ability to comprehend, a city made by God, where he dwells among the people, where they see his face.....faith is what we live by, like Abraham were persuaded of the promises Jesus made, and he didn't promise a land that was temporary that would be corrupted with sin....but and enduring one, wherein dwells righteousness and truth, never to be corrupted ......

    two testaments, two covenants. Flesh that is lost to sin, and spirit that is alive into righteousness

  7. #52
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    try this one just reading what Paul is saying, to understand the oneness between Jew and gentile where he's explaining, the division of Jew and gentile by law, is abolished and two made one


    “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;”
    **Ephesians‬ *2:11-16, 18-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    the restoration of Israel, and Judah, is a foreshadow , a figure of Jew and gentile being made one people before God, that is Jew, and non Jew. All people made one. There's no difference because we're in the new covenant mediated by Christ. Israel and Judah were part of the same plan it's purpose is to lead anyone who will believe to Jesus, there's no other mediator between God and man, just Jesus , no other blood that can atone for sins, just Jesus blood, no other gospel that can save, just Jesus gospel. There's nothing and no one unless we belong to Jesus.....and those who belong to Jesus gentile or Jew are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise.

    “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:26-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    look to the spiritual things brother, the old is the flesh, the new is the spirit, the flesh seed inherited a promised land, then were destroyed and cast from it because of thier rejection of Gods word. The spirit seed are promised a land beyond our ability to comprehend, a city made by God, where he dwells among the people, where they see his face.....faith is what we live by, like Abraham were persuaded of the promises Jesus made, and he didn't promise a land that was temporary that would be corrupted with sin....but and enduring one, wherein dwells righteousness and truth, never to be corrupted ......

    two testaments, two covenants. Flesh that is lost to sin, and spirit that is alive into righteousness
    Brother,

    I have read and noted your two postings above. Thank you. You have stated your position and there is not much more I can say. Thank you for the exchange. I hope it was profitable for us both. Go well, and God bless.

  8. #53
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    the law is holy, it's just not meant for the redeemed of God, it's meant for sinners .

    “But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
    **1 Timothy‬ *1:8-10‬ *KJV‬‬

    the law came to those Unspiritual people, sold as slaves to sin. They knew every word of the law, but they couldn't obey it, thier hearts were contrary to the holy law, it was meant to reveal sin in mankind. Think about it what happens when sinful people receive a holy law and are commanded to keep it to the letter ? The effect because men had been corrupted in the heart...is this

    “But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

    For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

    Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

    I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
    **Romans‬ *7:8-14, 18-19, 21-24‬ *KJV‬‬

    Thats the end result of Moses law, to,reveal sin for what it is, and to make us understand the law is good, we are not we were sold into sin by Adam. The law brings us to,that point and then the law of the spirit of,life in Christ, sets us free, inwardly so we are able to walk out the truth of righteousness, the things Jesus taught us, true tangible love in action when others need, real godly love laying ourself down for the sake of others.....

    The law is essential, but it has its purpose once it brings us to Jesus this way, it has no more redemptive value, still is good for learning right and wrong, but no help to,us who need to do the right things willingly without grievance.
    Lots of good Scriptures there, but they need to be properly understood. Some do not. Law itself is not a bad thing, and still applies in Christ. Righteousness is still part of our obedience to Christ. Christ has commandments. Therefore, we have obedience and lawfulness.

    What needs to be understood is that the *Law of Moses* was written for sinful Man prior to Christ's redemption. As such, it showed Israel's sin, as well as their need for eternal redemption from Christ. As such, "the Law was made for sinners."

    This does not, however, mean that Law in Christ is not good for us, now that we have been redeemed from the condemnation of sin. We still sin, and we still need law. We just don't need the "Law of Moses," which portrayed the as-yet unfinished process of redemption which Christ would accomplish. Now that Christ has won our redemption, we don't need to observe a Law to show this need anymore.

    Although we still follow Law in Christ, it can be deceptive because it can send the message that our sin nature still separates us from Christ. It doesn't. The Law in Christ only shows us the pathway that we must take to be righteous in Christ. And it also shows us that our righteousness comes from him, as a gift from him through his spirit. Whenever we fail under the Law, we must know that we still have free access to Christ, through whom we are forgiven and given eternal access to God.

  9. #54

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Brother,

    I have read and noted your two postings above. Thank you. You have stated your position and there is not much more I can say. Thank you for the exchange. I hope it was profitable for us both. Go well, and God bless.

    amen brother, over time, good discussion sinks in when two come together seeking the things of God. Very fruitful discussion, even if we don't yet grasp the type of fruit. No doubt God is able to get through to us.

  10. #55

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Lots of good Scriptures there, but they need to be properly understood. Some do not. Law itself is not a bad thing, and still applies in Christ. Righteousness is still part of our obedience to Christ. Christ has commandments. Therefore, we have obedience and lawfulness.

    What needs to be understood is that the *Law of Moses* was written for sinful Man prior to Christ's redemption. As such, it showed Israel's sin, as well as their need for eternal redemption from Christ. As such, "the Law was made for sinners."

    This does not, however, mean that Law in Christ is not good for us, now that we have been redeemed from the condemnation of sin. We still sin, and we still need law. We just don't need the "Law of Moses," which portrayed the as-yet unfinished process of redemption which Christ would accomplish. Now that Christ has won our redemption, we don't need to observe a Law to show this need anymore.

    Although we still follow Law in Christ, it can be deceptive because it can send the message that our sin nature still separates us from Christ. It doesn't. The Law in Christ only shows us the pathway that we must take to be righteous in Christ. And it also shows us that our righteousness comes from him, as a gift from him through his spirit. Whenever we fail under the Law, we must know that we still have free access to Christ, through whom we are forgiven and given eternal access to God.

    brother, Christ and the gospel is the law to us, we do have to abide his doctrine. His doctrine is contrary to the law of Moses. The law is good as i said, but it is not for the redeemed, it's purpose is clearly stated not only to show Israel it's sinfulness, but to this end was the law of Moses given

    “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”
    **Romans‬ *3:19-25, 27-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    no one can be just in Gods sight by the law of Moses, that is all based on whether you or I, are righteous apart from Jesus. No one is. There are three men identified to be righteous and deliver themselves, Noah, job, and Daniel. None of them were righteous by the deeds of the mosaic law, job and Noah were before the law came, and Daniels faith made him righteous. Like when he refused to abstain from praying to,God, and was cast into,the lions den, his faith saved him, not the deeds of the law of Moses.


    anyone who is baptized into Jesus, is dead to the mosaic law. What that means is for example, an adulterer. The law of Moses commands the adulterer, must surely be put to death. When the adulterer is stoned and dies.....the law is fulfilled it no longer has any authority over the adulterer, they sinned, they were executed.....that's as far as Moses law goes. A sinner, dies.....the end.

    Jesus is the. " propitiation" for a believers sins, the reason he died, is for the purpose of delivering us from the mosaic law that demands a sinner to be put to death. He died, in your place, for whatever you had done, that the law demands you die for. That means, the law ends for the dead man. The believer.

    Paul uses this very descriptive analogy to explain it , think of the mosaic law like the law of marriage, when one of the two married people die, by law the marriage commitments end. Same with the mosaic law

    “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

    the next sentence explains what he's saying....

    Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
    **Romans‬ *7:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬

    do you recall how fruit comes forth according to Jesus?

    “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
    **John‬ *15:3-5, 7-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    Moses didn't write the Christian law, Jesus spoke it forth coming from heaven, speaking things from God, the law of the spirit of life. The law ends when a person dies after that it has no authority. It's the difference between the laws righteousness, and the righteousness that comes by faith in Christ Jesus. Baptism, is when God recognizes our death to the mosaic law......

    “God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
    **Romans‬ *6:2-4, 6-7‬ *KJV‬‬


    we don't die through the law, be raised up again in Christ and then return to the law intended to make us guilty. The law of Moses is good , righteous and holy, it's not for the ones who are in Christ, they are already dead to the law, therefore dead to sin because.

    “Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.”
    **Romans‬ *4:15‬ *KJV‬‬


    Moses law as shown above in the beginning of this post is for the intent of holding all people guilty the whole world guilty before God according to the hundreds of individual commands in Moses law. That's where it ends , and the only way home to God, is through the law of Christ, the law of the spirit of life notice Jesus came preaching repentance and forgiveness of sins? It's because everyone had been held guilty, even those yet born mankind is guilty before God.......Christ his message is " though you have sinned according to the law and are condemned, I love you so much, I will give my life in your place under law, take your punishment, and all you need to do, is follow me who did all that for you.....


    compare the mosaic law, with the gospel, I bet you find contrary doctrine. We do indeed have a law, the heart of our law is to bear each other's burdens, to love as Christ taught us to love....in that there is no sin.

  11. #56
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    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    brother, Christ and the gospel is the law to us, we do have to abide his doctrine. His doctrine is contrary to the law of Moses. The law is good as i said, but it is not for the redeemed, it's purpose is clearly stated not only to show Israel it's sinfulness, but to this end was the law of Moses given

    “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”
    **Romans‬ *3:19-25, 27-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    no one can be just in Gods sight by the law of Moses, that is all based on whether you or I, are righteous apart from Jesus. No one is. There are three men identified to be righteous and deliver themselves, Noah, job, and Daniel. None of them were righteous by the deeds of the mosaic law, job and Noah were before the law came, and Daniels faith made him righteous. Like when he refused to abstain from praying to,God, and was cast into,the lions den, his faith saved him, not the deeds of the law of Moses.


    anyone who is baptized into Jesus, is dead to the mosaic law. What that means is for example, an adulterer. The law of Moses commands the adulterer, must surely be put to death. When the adulterer is stoned and dies.....the law is fulfilled it no longer has any authority over the adulterer, they sinned, they were executed.....that's as far as Moses law goes. A sinner, dies.....the end.

    Jesus is the. " propitiation" for a believers sins, the reason he died, is for the purpose of delivering us from the mosaic law that demands a sinner to be put to death. He died, in your place, for whatever you had done, that the law demands you die for. That means, the law ends for the dead man. The believer.

    Paul uses this very descriptive analogy to explain it , think of the mosaic law like the law of marriage, when one of the two married people die, by law the marriage commitments end. Same with the mosaic law

    “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

    the next sentence explains what he's saying....

    Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
    **Romans‬ *7:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬

    do you recall how fruit comes forth according to Jesus?

    “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
    **John‬ *15:3-5, 7-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    Moses didn't write the Christian law, Jesus spoke it forth coming from heaven, speaking things from God, the law of the spirit of life. The law ends when a person dies after that it has no authority. It's the difference between the laws righteousness, and the righteousness that comes by faith in Christ Jesus. Baptism, is when God recognizes our death to the mosaic law......

    “God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
    **Romans‬ *6:2-4, 6-7‬ *KJV‬‬


    we don't die through the law, be raised up again in Christ and then return to the law intended to make us guilty. The law of Moses is good , righteous and holy, it's not for the ones who are in Christ, they are already dead to the law, therefore dead to sin because.

    “Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.”
    **Romans‬ *4:15‬ *KJV‬‬


    Moses law as shown above in the beginning of this post is for the intent of holding all people guilty the whole world guilty before God according to the hundreds of individual commands in Moses law. That's where it ends , and the only way home to God, is through the law of Christ, the law of the spirit of life notice Jesus came preaching repentance and forgiveness of sins? It's because everyone had been held guilty, even those yet born mankind is guilty before God.......Christ his message is " though you have sinned according to the law and are condemned, I love you so much, I will give my life in your place under law, take your punishment, and all you need to do, is follow me who did all that for you.....


    compare the mosaic law, with the gospel, I bet you find contrary doctrine. We do indeed have a law, the heart of our law is to bear each other's burdens, to love as Christ taught us to love....in that there is no sin.
    I don't know why you address this to me? I never said we are still under the Law of Moses! In fact, I said the exact opposite. So I have no idea why you think you're correcting my position, which is that we are *not* under the Law of Moses?

    On the other hand, like you I believe Christ himself presents a law in the sense that his person presents the moral example and the spiritual life that produces eternal righteousness. Following his example, and participating in his spirituality, enables us to live under the law of morality he exhibited.

    As I said, the Law of Moses was an adequate example of righteousness before Christ justified us. He provided a moral example and the spirituality necessary to produce righteousness and a real relationship with God. But this was temporary. This Law also required that Israel display a need for a greater righteousness, for an eternal justification. Once that eternal justification was obtained there was no longer any need to display things like temple worship, priestly service, animal sacrifice, food discrimination, circumcision, festival adherence, purifications, etc. All these things displayed Israel's need, under the OT, for Christ's eternal justification. Only Christ could fulfill these things.

    But the lawfulness apparent under the Law of Moses were also present in Christ. And so, it is his righteousness that we follow, just as OT Israel followed the Law that foreshadowed him.

    There is nothing wrong with being lawful in the NT era. What we need to do is to be lawful and have faith in Christ's eternal justification. To have faith in Christ is to have faith that he covers our sinfulness, accepting our righteousness.

  12. #57

    Re: Consideration of two covenants

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know why you address this to me? I never said we are still under the Law of Moses! In fact, I said the exact opposite. So I have no idea why you think you're correcting my position, which is that we are *not* under the Law of Moses?

    On the other hand, like you I believe Christ himself presents a law in the sense that his person presents the moral example and the spiritual life that produces eternal righteousness. Following his example, and participating in his spirituality, enables us to live under the law of morality he exhibited.

    As I said, the Law of Moses was an adequate example of righteousness before Christ justified us. He provided a moral example and the spirituality necessary to produce righteousness and a real relationship with God. But this was temporary. This Law also required that Israel display a need for a greater righteousness, for an eternal justification. Once that eternal justification was obtained there was no longer any need to display things like temple worship, priestly service, animal sacrifice, food discrimination, circumcision, festival adherence, purifications, etc. All these things displayed Israel's need, under the OT, for Christ's eternal justification. Only Christ could fulfill these things.

    But the lawfulness apparent under the Law of Moses were also present in Christ. And so, it is his righteousness that we follow, just as OT Israel followed the Law that foreshadowed him.

    There is nothing wrong with being lawful in the NT era. What we need to do is to be lawful and have faith in Christ's eternal justification. To have faith in Christ is to have faith that he covers our sinfulness, accepting our righteousness.

    I'm not correcting anything bro, I thought we were discussing, no offense intended.


    I'm not saying you think we're under Moses law at all, I understand what you were saying, you I don't think, are connecting the law, and sin. The law of Moses, is what causes sin to work in us. That's why I quoted chapter 7 earlier in what I thought was a discussion between you and I. Why do you suppose Paul teaches that Christians are dead to the law? Again no offense intended at all, God bless , hope to find a different subject, with no offense.

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