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Thread: works the most gets the most

  1. #16
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Maybe but I wonder how many people showed up the next day early in the morning and how many decided to show up at the 11th hour
    who's to say that the Lord would have interest in any workers at the 11th hour the next day, surly anyone trying out smart the Lord will suffer for it. but Jesus is using what many see in some southern states where men hangout looking for work some years ago home depot was a place like that where construction contractors could find extra laborers. they who would wait to show at a late hour surly will be the ones to miss out. which would be their own fault wouldn't it?
    Let there be Light

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    who's to say that the Lord would have interest in any workers at the 11th hour the next day, surly anyone trying out smart the Lord will suffer for it. but Jesus is using what many see in some southern states where men hangout looking for work some years ago home depot was a place like that where construction contractors could find extra laborers. they who would wait to show at a late hour surly will be the ones to miss out. which would be their own fault wouldn't it?
    Does the parable show that showing up late is a bad thing?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Jesus used diverse parables in his Gospel that ultimately teaches about the kingdom of heaven and how to get there. The parable of the householder and his band of labourers is no different. I believe I presented an objective rendition in post #5 and showed how the essence of the parable is no more than that salvation/eternal life is equal. No one is greater in value than the other. Notice that the opening statement says "the kingdom of heaven is like unto..."? The inference here is that ALL the labourers are qualified to enter; however, Jesus reiterated that the ticket in is the same in value irrespective of the time each came in.

    With regards to David in 1 Sam 30, I don't believe a corroboration exists with Matthew 20. Nevertheless, I will address your query. It should be recalled that in v-8 David enquired of the Lord who assured him "pursue, for thou shall surely overtake them and without fail, recover all". Now, David was astute and also understood how to please God. Consequently, when his men were bickering about who gets what, he realised that numbers didn't influence their victory since God was behind them. So whether 200 or 400 men fought, the result would still have been the same. It is therefore not difficult to understand why he made the decision for all to partake of the spoils.

    Again, the parable has nothing to do with neither the Law, the flesh, works nor grace. If the parable is a contrast between those who work under grace against those relying on the law, then your case may have merit. But the parable definitely is not any of these things.
    It is difficult to answer your posting. In your first sentence you rightly address the "Kingdom OF Heaven". Your language is remarkable. You write, "how to get there", as if it was IN Heaven. It is imperative that we understand that the Kingdom OUT OF Heaven is that period when Christ returns to earth, defeats the armies and power of the Nations, and sets Himself up as sovereign King of this earth with His headquarters and Seat of Power at Jerusalem. If you disagree with this, you may at once stop reading for we talk of different things and no solution will be forthcoming.

    Then, after introducing "how to get to the PLACE of the Kingdom out of Heaven", you introduce "salvation/eternal life". This you allude to in your posting #5 as well. To me, there is nothing said of "salvation" or "eternal life" in this parable. So it difficult to answer your posting. "Salvation" has various meanings in the Bible and the "salvation" of the Jew is very different to the "salvation" of the Church. Since the "salvation" of the Church is by FAITH, the Jews CANNOT be included in this salvation" seeing as they are ALL concluded IN UNBELIEF (e.g. six times in Romans alone). But in Romans Chapter 11 "ALL" Israel is "saved". But this salvation is defined by the prophets, and especially by Luke 1:67-79, as their sins are put away, they are revived, gathered and restored to their Land and the Temple service. Likewise, ETERNAL LIFE is ONLY gained by FAITH (Jn.3:15), so there is NO WAY for Israel to possess eternal life since they are ALL found in UNBELIEF.

    IN PARABLE, a "kingdom" is depicted as a TREE (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). And in the OLIVE TREE of Romans 11 BOTH Israel and the Church are, at the end, when God has restored the natural branches, members of this TREE. The Tree, being a king and his kingdom IS NOT THE CHURCH. It is a KINGDOM which INCLUDES the Church (wild branches grafted in BY FAITH), and Israel (natural branches cut off for UNBELIEF but re-grafted in by God's grace). So also the New Jerusalem. It has BOTH the Church AND Israel as components but they remain in separate functions (Walls and Gates). So in the Parable of the Laborers, which speaks of the KINGDOM, just like the Wedding Feast, it is absolutely normal to find BOTH Israel (unbelievers and not possessing eternal life, but "children of the kingdom) AND the Church (believers possessing eternal life, but "called" guests) TOGETHER.

    The difficulty of this Parable is to find who was "called" BUT NOT CHOSEN"! The difficulty is the ending of the parable in Matthew 20:16, "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." This statement is always used elsewhere to show men NOT attaining the Kingdom (Matt.19:30; Mk.10:31; Lk.13:28-30). The Parable does not say, but it alludes to those being last who should have been first. And the REWARD is a "penny for A DAY". Which DAY? It cannot be the day they worked for it is a reward and given AFTER the labor. I judge that the "DAY" spoken of here is the Millennial Kingdom, or "remaining Sabbath" of Hebrews 3 and 4. Then, we have another clue. In verse 14 it is "Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee." To those who accepted what was "just", there is no such dismissal! Could it be that the Israel, though part of the Kingdom of Heaven in the Millennial age because our Lord Jesus, Emmanuel, lives among them, BUT THAT THEY HAVE NO SAY IN THE RULE of the Kingdom (Matt.21:43). That is, they were under CONTRACT "for the DAY" - the Messianic Kingdom of 1,000 years, but FAILED to be PART OF THE RULING.

    But I agree. This parable is difficult. We are bound to FULLY exploit what IS THERE, and are equally bound to IGNORE what is NOT THERE. Somebody in that workforce DID NOT INHERIT THIS KINGDOM. Who was it. In the Parable of the Wedding Feast, the Talents, the Virgins and the Pounds, it shows SOME who were called NOT ATTAINING THE KINGDOM. But in this Parable, we only have (i) those under contract and those under God's grace. Difficult hey?

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Does the parable show that showing up late is a bad thing?
    really? you're a "senior member"?
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    really? you're a "senior member"?
    The forum assigned that. I assume it's based on post count and join date. No different than your "Regular Contributor" that is assigned to you as a newer member with lesser posts. At some point it will say "Senior Member".

    Why did you refuse to answer the question and instead focus on me?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Glory to God you and every believer finds it confusing! If all we had is Matthew Christianity would look a lot different. Look at the parable of the talents and see someone that did nothing be brought before the Lord and slain. Now go over to the parallel KoG passage in Luke and see he is not slain. In Matthew's Koh parable the wheat has to first be separated from the chaff, which takes place in Matt 25, but in the parallel passage in Mark there is no separation because the Lord knows who is his, they are just caught up to be with him, a completely separate event. You won't find a parallel to Mat 25 in Mark or Luke, and you won't find many other things in them like, many that call me Lord will not enter the kingdom of God. It's only found that many will not enter the Koh in the Koh passage because only Matthew, which is very Israel-centric, uses the phrase KoH and it refers what takes place on earth (now and future). The KoG refers to what takes place spiritually and is not only not Israel-centric but Jesus specifically said it would be taken from Israel and given to all that believe, both Jew and Gentile. No passage says the Koh would be taken from Israel. God would be braking his covenant to Abraham if it did. Matthew doesn't say the KoH has come upon you when demons are cast out and people are healed. It is never said that anyone entered the Koh before the scribes and pharisees. You cannot enter that which has not come. There's more. Fascinating, long term, study!

    Jesus didn't say there are mysteries because things are revealed by "revelation" or because it's so simple to understand in English everyone can understand and assume the Koh/G are synonymous. If the kingdom parables are so easily understood those without would have and been healed, but Jesus specifically said he spoke in parables so this would not happen (because they rejected him as Messiah). Why then do we just take them at face value like those that Jesus hid the meaning from did? We can make them mean whatever we want then, and unfortunately we do. No. We have to look at how Jesus defined the terms of the parables and how he interpreted the parables to the disciples privately because that's how the mysteries were given to them and us. Why do we see "mysteries" then conclude the "obvious"? Kinda silly, if you think about it.

    The goal is one kingdom but sin delayed it. The KoG has come in part. We wait for it in full. The Koh has not come in full (man ruling and reigning on earth with God), but we live in it in its broken state until it does. God decided The Kingdom would be on earth. He would dwell with and rule and reign with man here. That kingdom is spiritual and physical. These two aspects of The Kingdom are not running side by side at their full potential yet, but they will.

    Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
    What a fantastic exegesis...once again, thanks a lot for taking the time to elaborate on this.

  7. #22
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is difficult to answer your posting. In your first sentence you rightly address the "Kingdom OF Heaven". Your language is remarkable. You write, "how to get there", as if it was IN Heaven. It is imperative that we understand that the Kingdom OUT OF Heaven is that period when Christ returns to earth, defeats the armies and power of the Nations, and sets Himself up as sovereign King of this earth with His headquarters and Seat of Power at Jerusalem. If you disagree with this, you may at once stop reading for we talk of different things and no solution will be forthcoming.

    Then, after introducing "how to get to the PLACE of the Kingdom out of Heaven", you introduce "salvation/eternal life". This you allude to in your posting #5 as well. To me, there is nothing said of "salvation" or "eternal life" in this parable. So it difficult to answer your posting. "Salvation" has various meanings in the Bible and the "salvation" of the Jew is very different to the "salvation" of the Church. Since the "salvation" of the Church is by FAITH, the Jews CANNOT be included in this salvation" seeing as they are ALL concluded IN UNBELIEF (e.g. six times in Romans alone). But in Romans Chapter 11 "ALL" Israel is "saved". But this salvation is defined by the prophets, and especially by Luke 1:67-79, as their sins are put away, they are revived, gathered and restored to their Land and the Temple service. Likewise, ETERNAL LIFE is ONLY gained by FAITH (Jn.3:15), so there is NO WAY for Israel to possess eternal life since they are ALL found in UNBELIEF.
    We certainly understand the parable differently which is not usual. For what it's worth, there's no such thing as "the Kingdom OUT of heaven"! Even though I can 'guess' what you mean by that, I think the phrase is inappropriate, nonetheless. But I concur with the rest about Jesus Christ' Glorious Return to establish his millennial kingdom. What I meant by heaven and "how to get there" is a simple reference to the requirement thereto. IOW, how to get to heaven is by being saved and that means to have salvation/eternal life which is freely given. This wonderful gift is what the parable of the householder and his band of labourers (Matt 20) is about.

    It is unfortunate that you believe that the SALVATION OF THE JEW IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THE CHURCH. Your position seems to infer that there are TWO SALVATIONS; one for Israel and the other for the Gentile. This claim is as incorrect as they come. But what does the Bible actually teach about salvation/justification?

    Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    The operative word here is to *justify*, i.e. to be declared righteous, to be saved, salvation/eternal life by faith to the Jew and through faith by the Gentile. You see, salvation/eternal is the same for the Jew/Gentile - the difference is how both get there. "By" and "through" FAITH is merely nuanced as the distinction is pretty subtle.

    You have a brilliant mind, but it seems you try too hard and in the process you read far too much meaning into what is otherwise, pretty simple. For example, by using Rom 11 to justify the case that Israel is excluded in the salvation of the "church" you revealed how far off and mistaken you are. As pointed out in Rom 3 above, there's no separate salvation for the church and Israel. Even though not explicitly stated in Rom 11, we know there's ultimately a proviso to the saving of Israel. They are still required to believe the Messiah BY faith because they were never promised a get-out-of-jail-free-card to salvation/eternal life devoid of Jesus Christ. If you can't accept this, then as you said above, let's knock this on the head and move on because "no solution will be forthcoming".

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    IN PARABLE, a "kingdom" is depicted as a TREE (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). And in the OLIVE TREE of Romans 11 BOTH Israel and the Church are, at the end, when God has restored the natural branches, members of this TREE. The Tree, being a king and his kingdom IS NOT THE CHURCH. It is a KINGDOM which INCLUDES the Church (wild branches grafted in BY FAITH), and Israel (natural branches cut off for UNBELIEF but re-grafted in by God's grace). So also the New Jerusalem. It has BOTH the Church AND Israel as components but they remain in separate functions (Walls and Gates). So in the Parable of the Laborers, which speaks of the KINGDOM, just like the Wedding Feast, it is absolutely normal to find BOTH Israel (unbelievers and not possessing eternal life, but "children of the kingdom) AND the Church (believers possessing eternal life, but "called" guests) TOGETHER.
    You've lost me as I find it difficult to relate to your analogy because it just doesn't fit. If in God's kingdom, (post-resurrection) Israel and the church remain distinct, then Paul lied in Gal 3:27-28. If ever it's a choice between you and Paul on who to believe, I know who I would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The difficulty of this Parable is to find who was "called" BUT NOT CHOSEN"! The difficulty is the ending of the parable in Matthew 20:16, "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." This statement is always used elsewhere to show men NOT attaining the Kingdom (Matt.19:30; Mk.10:31; Lk.13:28-30). The Parable does not say, but it alludes to those being last who should have been first. And the REWARD is a "penny for A DAY". Which DAY? It cannot be the day they worked for it is a reward and given AFTER the labor. I judge that the "DAY" spoken of here is the Millennial Kingdom, or "remaining Sabbath" of Hebrews 3 and 4. Then, we have another clue. In verse 14 it is "Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee." To those who accepted what was "just", there is no such dismissal! Could it be that the Israel, though part of the Kingdom of Heaven in the Millennial age because our Lord Jesus, Emmanuel, lives among them, BUT THAT THEY HAVE NO SAY IN THE RULE of the Kingdom (Matt.21:43). That is, they were under CONTRACT "for the DAY" - the Messianic Kingdom of 1,000 years, but FAILED to be PART OF THE RULING.

    But I agree. This parable is difficult. We are bound to FULLY exploit what IS THERE, and are equally bound to IGNORE what is NOT THERE. Somebody in that workforce DID NOT INHERIT THIS KINGDOM. Who was it. In the Parable of the Wedding Feast, the Talents, the Virgins and the Pounds, it shows SOME who were called NOT ATTAINING THE KINGDOM. But in this Parable, we only have (i) those under contract and those under God's grace. Difficult hey?
    Naturally, what is not understood is always seen as "difficult". Matt 20:16 says that 'many are called but few chosen'. For me, this is plain as day because from the time of Jesus to his Second Coming, many are being called to salvation through the Gospel. But only a few yields to the call, these are the chosen. The FIRST called also denote Israel as they were the first to receive the oracles and covenants of God (Rom 3:2-3). But according to Rom 11 will be the LAST to experience national revival.

    I wonder how you concluded that "somebody in that workforce did not inherit the kingdom"? The passage is very clear since whether in grudge or gratitude - they ALL accepted the penny! How did you miss that? There are several parables about the kingdom of God and in each one, Jesus taught something different about the kingdom. In some parables, some are accepted and others rejected. But Matt 20 is not acceptance or rejection, rather Jesus used it to teach another attribute to the kingdom: that acceptance/entrance is on an equal basis. None is greater!

  8. #23
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The forum assigned that. I assume it's based on post count and join date. No different than your "Regular Contributor" that is assigned to you as a newer member with lesser posts. At some point it will say "Senior Member".
    True. But the joining date doesn't count because you'll find some who joined e.g 10 years before you but have fewer posts. What is taken into consideration when a title is assigned is the number of postings. Having notched up over 13,000 posts in 7 years, you've been pretty busy and deserve the title of "Senior Member".

    So well done.

  9. #24
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    We certainly understand the parable differently which is not usual. For what it's worth, there's no such thing as "the Kingdom OUT of heaven"! Even though I can 'guess' what you mean by that, I think the phrase is inappropriate, nonetheless. But I concur with the rest about Jesus Christ' Glorious Return to establish his millennial kingdom. What I meant by heaven and "how to get there" is a simple reference to the requirement thereto. IOW, how to get to heaven is by being saved and that means to have salvation/eternal life which is freely given. This wonderful gift is what the parable of the householder and his band of labourers (Matt 20) is about.

    It is unfortunate that you believe that the SALVATION OF THE JEW IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THE CHURCH. Your position seems to infer that there are TWO SALVATIONS; one for Israel and the other for the Gentile. This claim is as incorrect as they come. But what does the Bible actually teach about salvation/justification?

    Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    The operative word here is to *justify*, i.e. to be declared righteous, to be saved, salvation/eternal life by faith to the Jew and through faith by the Gentile. You see, salvation/eternal is the same for the Jew/Gentile - the difference is how both get there. "By" and "through" FAITH is merely nuanced as the distinction is pretty subtle.

    You have a brilliant mind, but it seems you try too hard and in the process you read far too much meaning into what is otherwise, pretty simple. For example, by using Rom 11 to justify the case that Israel is excluded in the salvation of the "church" you revealed how far off and mistaken you are. As pointed out in Rom 3 above, there's no separate salvation for the church and Israel. Even though not explicitly stated in Rom 11, we know there's ultimately a proviso to the saving of Israel. They are still required to believe the Messiah BY faith because they were never promised a get-out-of-jail-free-card to salvation/eternal life devoid of Jesus Christ. If you can't accept this, then as you said above, let's knock this on the head and move on because "no solution will be forthcoming".
    When brothers differ in exegesis, it usually boils down to the way they handle the language of the bible. Our difference is because you maintain that there is only one type of salvation. But you will find yourself badly offside if you do this. I will just give more than SIX examples - TREBLE what the Lord requires to establish anything (2nd Cor.13:1). I will take them ALL from the New Testament to make it easy for you.
    1. In Matthew 8:25 the disciples were saved. "And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish." Are they saved here like Ephesians 2:8? "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"
    2. In Matthew 10:22 the Disciples will be saved, but NOT by FAITH but ENDURANCE! "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." If salvation is by FAITH as written in Ephesians 2:8, then have we not a contradiction?
    3. In Acts 4:12 it states; "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved". How then is Noah "saved" by an Ark in Hebrews 11:7 below?
    4. In Romans 10:13 it states; "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." How then is one saved by being married to a believer in 1st Corinthians 7:16 immediately below?
    5. In 1st Corinthians 7:16 it is; "For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?". But is not salvation by calling on the name of the Lord in Romans 10:13?
    6. In Ephesians 2:8 it states that; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" But Paul, the same author, under inspiration, states in 1st Timothy 2:15, "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." These are ALL WORKS! Is this not a total contradiction? And how come only women can be saved since men cannot bear children?
    7. In Hebrews 11:7 it is; "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith". Is not Noah saved by being "moved by fear". And how then is the Ark to save him like Ephesians 2:8?
    8. In 1st Peter 3:20 it reads, "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." How can Noah be saved FROM water by the Ark, but at the same time be Saved BY the water?

    The answer is, of course, there are DIFFERENT SALVATIONS. Israel's SALVATION in Romans 11 is not the same as yours and mine. How could it be? They are ALL in unbelief? And a Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom. Israel's "salvation" is connected with the Kingdom - not the Lake of Fire and Eternal Life. If you had stopped to address my example, Luke 1:67-79, you might have got an inkling that Israel's salvation is not the same as ours. And Zechariah says the same as the prophets of Israel.

    I propose that you either agree with me, or spend pages on the impossible task of showing why the above "salvations" are all the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You've lost me as I find it difficult to relate to your analogy because it just doesn't fit. If in God's kingdom, (post-resurrection) Israel and the church remain distinct, then Paul lied in Gal 3:27-28. If ever it's a choice between you and Paul on who to believe, I know who I would.
    But in Galatians 3:27-28 Paul does not address Israel and the Church. He addresses those who, "... have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ!" In THIS company of men and women ethnicity is moot because they have a NEW ORIGIN - A NEW BIRTH - AND ARE A NEW MAN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Naturally, what is not understood is always seen as "difficult". Matt 20:16 says that 'many are called but few chosen'. For me, this is plain as day because from the time of Jesus to his Second Coming, many are being called to salvation through the Gospel. But only a few yields to the call, these are the chosen. The FIRST called also denote Israel as they were the first to receive the oracles and covenants of God (Rom 3:2-3). But according to Rom 11 will be the LAST to experience national revival.
    Well ... let us see about "understanding". You maintain here that "only a few yield to the calling, these are chosen". But in the following immutable scriptures, the "CALLED" are Christians!
    • Romans 11:29: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
    • 1st Corinthians 1:26: "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:"
    • 1st Corinthians 7:20: "Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called."
    • Ephesians 4:4: "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;"
    • 2nd Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
    • Hebrews 3:1: "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I wonder how you concluded that "somebody in that workforce did not inherit the kingdom"? The passage is very clear since whether in grudge or gratitude - they ALL accepted the penny! How did you miss that? There are several parables about the kingdom of God and in each one, Jesus taught something different about the kingdom. In some parables, some are accepted and others rejected. But Matt 20 is not acceptance or rejection, rather Jesus used it to teach another attribute to the kingdom: that acceptance/entrance is on an equal basis. None is greater!
    I will grant that you are correct. In almost every Parable on the Kingdom, it is either stated or implied, that some who were appointed to the Kingdom "inherited", or "entered" it, while some who were appointed to it failed to enter. So I naturally looked for this factor in this Parable too. And I found a verse concerning those who murmured. Don't forget God's reaction to murmuring - a great plague in Numbers 11 and fiery serpents in Numbers 21, both of which killed a hoard of God's People. And in this verse I found in the Parable, those who murmured were ordered to, "Take that thine is, and go thy way: ... ." (Matthew 20:14). Now, if they were in the Vineyard, "go your way" means that they must leave the vineyard! What say you to this? Did I miss something, or perhaps you ... ? I don't know, and I don't want to be quick to judge.

    Lastly, thank you for your gracious comments about my mind. But I can assure you that I'm very average. I would rather like to think that what I have learned is because God gave it. I would like to mime John Baptist in John 3:27; "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." But that, by far, does not mean I cannot err or miss something. So the debate must go on. We can all learn from each other.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If the parable is about the reward of works, then how do you explain their equal pay given the different times put in?
    If I may.....
    The key is in the corporate value of two groups - the first and the last. Jesus isn't talking about individuals here, he's comparing the nation of Israel and all it went through from their creation to the second coming of coming Christ to the beneficiaries of their work. The pay is the same and it makes no difference what these two groups went through or for how long because they will receive the reward they worked for. He says as much. They receive what they agreed to. This is completely different than the parable of the talents where they receive reward based on their works, because it is about the individual and the reward is things like what role they will play in the earthly reign, not salvation. The penny is about salvation and all get a penny.

    Jesus said this parable after an exchange with the rich young ruler. The young ruler's question was, "what shall I do that I may have eternal life?". Jesus showed him there's nothing he can do. All sin and fall short. He said it's very hard to enter the koh/earthly reign with works, but it is impossible to be born again/enter the koG with works.

    The disciples were amazed and Jesus told them it's only possible to enter the koG because of God -by grace and faith. Peter, still not understanding, questioned this. Then Jesus points out that what individuals will be paid for their sacrifice will be the same - one hundred fold. He that gave up one house will receive 100 houses worth reward. He that gave up 3, 300 houses worth. All of them equally paid AND all of them....."shall inherit everlasting life". All will receive equal pay - one hundred fold, and all will receive everlasting life. The one hundred fold is not the penny. Their's much more to be said....paid a penny (salvation) for your work but you can't do anything to enter the koG and how that seems to contradict and doesn't but.....

    Did you catch another difference in the two aspects of The Kingdom? Though very hard, a survivor of the second coming can enter the koh because of works - Matt 25, but no one enters the koG because of works.

  11. #26
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Somebody in that workforce DID NOT INHERIT THIS KINGDOM.
    Everyone in the workforce inherits everlasting life.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Everyone in the workforce inherits everlasting life.
    "Everlasting Life" is not even mentioned. The Parable is about the Kingdom. "Inherit" is different to EARN. The workers all EARNED a penny, but did the murmurers gain the Kingdom? Why are they told to "go your way"? I would appreciate your exegesis on this.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    "Everlasting Life" is not even mentioned.
    Sure it is. Did you read post #20? Ch 20:1 starts with "For" because it's not the start of a topic but a continuation from the previous chapter. 19:29, just 2 verses before 20:1, is where we find "everlasting life". We also have

    19:30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
    and
    20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last.

    So we have one continuous flow from Jesus......
    19:29 And whoever has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
    30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
    20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
    ........
    ....
    20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last.

    You can't properly interpret the parable without the backstory, what took place before it, and why Jesus told it. So you have to go back to the rich young ruler. Context is everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Parable is about the Kingdom. "Inherit" is different to EARN.
    Yes, I pointed that out in post #20. The one hundred fold for personal sacrifice cannot be a penny because everyone's sacrifice is different. One sacrifice multiplied by 100 pennies is not a penny. They were only given a penny. The penny is everlasting life from 19:29 and is what both the first and the last groups equally receive for simply participating in the work in the vineyard. Also verified in the next chapter, where Jesus shows the group that does not inherit everlasting life...

    21:28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 The boy answered, ‘I will not.’ But later he had a change of heart and went. 30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, tax collectors and prostitutes will go ahead of you into the kingdom of God! 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him. But the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe. Although you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him.

    Here we find one of the few times Matthew used the koG phrase, the spiritual aspects of The Kingdom. Those that work in the vineyard enter the koG - everlasting life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The workers all EARNED a penny, but did the murmurers gain the Kingdom?
    Yes. Jesus called him "Friend"


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Why are they told to "go your way"? I would appreciate your exegesis on this.
    19:28 says they were in it -"when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne" and 20:14 says "Take what is yours and go." Since they received the penny which is everlasting life and not reward for personal sacrifice, they got to remain in the koh and were told to go wherever they wished to go in the kingdom, or....go do what you are supposed to go do, or....the conversation is over.....

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    When brothers differ in exegesis, it usually boils down to the way they handle the language of the bible. Our difference is because you maintain that there is only one type of salvation. But you will find yourself badly offside if you do this. I will just give more than SIX examples - TREBLE what the Lord requires to establish anything (2nd Cor.13:1). I will take them ALL from the New Testament to make it easy for you.
    1. In Matthew 8:25 the disciples were saved. "And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish." Are they saved here like Ephesians 2:8? "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"
    2. In Matthew 10:22 the Disciples will be saved, but NOT by FAITH but ENDURANCE! "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." If salvation is by FAITH as written in Ephesians 2:8, then have we not a contradiction?
    3. In Acts 4:12 it states; "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved". How then is Noah "saved" by an Ark in Hebrews 11:7 below?
    4. In Romans 10:13 it states; "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." How then is one saved by being married to a believer in 1st Corinthians 7:16 immediately below?
    5. In 1st Corinthians 7:16 it is; "For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?". But is not salvation by calling on the name of the Lord in Romans 10:13?
    6. In Ephesians 2:8 it states that; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" But Paul, the same author, under inspiration, states in 1st Timothy 2:15, "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." These are ALL WORKS! Is this not a total contradiction? And how come only women can be saved since men cannot bear children?
    7. In Hebrews 11:7 it is; "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith". Is not Noah saved by being "moved by fear". And how then is the Ark to save him like Ephesians 2:8?
    8. In 1st Peter 3:20 it reads, "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." How can Noah be saved FROM water by the Ark, but at the same time be Saved BY the water?

    The answer is, of course, there are DIFFERENT SALVATIONS. Israel's SALVATION in Romans 11 is not the same as yours and mine. How could it be? They are ALL in unbelief? And a Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom. Israel's "salvation" is connected with the Kingdom - not the Lake of Fire and Eternal Life. If you had stopped to address my example, Luke 1:67-79, you might have got an inkling that Israel's salvation is not the same as ours. And Zechariah says the same as the prophets of Israel.

    I propose that you either agree with me, or spend pages on the impossible task of showing why the above "salvations" are all the same.
    Thank you, Walls, I always appreciate the depth of your arguments. But I will reiterate that SALVATION (promise of eternal life) is ONE and the same, it has no variations. Your claim to various versions thereof is unfounded.

    1. In Matt 8:25 the disciples urged the Lord to save them from drowning, hence, 'save' here refers to that of the flesh. But my focus is the saving of the soul. Bear this in mind as we progress.
    2. Matt 10:22 is the saving of the soul. It's about those who receive and believe the Gospel and went on to endure/persevere from the persecution arising from their faith to the end of their life. This is about SALVATION of the soul. By throwing Eph 2:8-9 into the mix, you're confusing the argument because the latter didn't say that the recipients of the free gift (salvation) will not suffer persecution.
    3. Acts 4:12 refers to the saving of the soul, i.e. salvation/eternal life. Heb 11:7 OTOH refers to the saving of the flesh as in Matt 8:25.
    4. Rom 10:13 is about saving the soul. In 1 Cor 7:16 Paul argued that a believing wife married to an unbelieving husband should not divorce or send him away on the hope that the wife may convert the husband in due course, thereby saving his soul.

    A careful review of your remarks plainly indicates that you consistently failed to understand the distinction between the saving of the flesh and that of the soul. For e.g., one could be saved from a gunshot wound to continue enjoying their life, but may ultimately lose their soul in hellfire when they die, depending on whether they believed in Christ or not. Once you understand this contrast, everything will fall into place.

    Again, your assertion to different salvations is unscriptural and unfounded. There's only ONE SALVATION irrespective of how, when, where or who received it. Your argument about Israel's salvation can easily be explained with the understanding that your position is not about a different salvation for Israel, rather it's about their pathway to that salvation that is on focus. For example, let's say that a football stadium is the Kingdom of Heaven. And those seeking to enter the stadium come from every nook and corner of the earth and in the end, the successful all get in and participate in the events.

    So irrespective of when Israel comes to faith, how (who persuaded them, e.g. the 2Ws, etc) or when, now or at the end times, what counts is that those who believe will ultimately accept the Messiah they have rejected all along. Their salvation will be no different from that of the Gentile since it is the same God that saves ALL.

    Unfortunately, what you presented as evidence of different salvations has failed to prove anything because 'different salvations' just doesn't exist! According to Acts 4:12 that you quoted, it says there's no other name under heaven whereby one can be saved, but Jesus. The question for you is, why is Israel in unbelief presently? Is it not because of their rejection of 'JESUS' as their Lord and saviour?. Now, with regard to Israel's salvation as you put it, is there any scripture that says they will be saved/receive salvation/eternal life without accepting Jesus? If you have such scripture, I would like to examine it.

    You see, my dear Brother, there is no such thing as different salvations. What we have are the many pathways that lead the Jew/Gentile to Christ as demonstrated in the parable in Matt 20.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But in Galatians 3:27-28 Paul does not address Israel and the Church. He addresses those who, "... have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ!" In THIS company of men and women ethnicity is moot because they have a NEW ORIGIN - A NEW BIRTH - AND ARE A NEW MAN.
    Gal 3:27-28 is further confirmation that salvation is one and the same for both Jew/Gentile. In this dispensation, can the Jew be saved without Jesus? The answer is NO. Since you believe that Paul did not address Israel and the Chruch, but "those who have been baptized into Christ"; who do you reckon this group is? Or are you advocating 3 groups now: Israel, the Church and those baptised in him?

    When people (Jew/Gentile) are saved, they will retain their ethnic identities while they remain in the flesh, but in the spirit, they are the same. This is what Paul is saying in Gal 3:27-28.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Well ... let us see about "understanding". You maintain here that "only a few yield to the calling, these are chosen". But in the following immutable scriptures, the "CALLED" are Christians!
    • Romans 11:29: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
    • 1st Corinthians 1:26: "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:"
    • 1st Corinthians 7:20: "Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called."
    • Ephesians 4:4: "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;"
    • 2nd Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
    • Hebrews 3:1: "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"
    All Israel are called by Gospel to believe in Christ, but only a few will heed the call. This is not limited to Israel alone. God's promises to the Patriarchs are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). For David's faithfulness, God assured him that his seed will forever sit on the throne in Israel (Jer 33:17, 2 Chron 6:16). You will recall that in Rom 11:7 Paul confirmed that even if the majority fail to believe in Christ, the "election" (whom God has reserved for himself, not for their righteousness but by His grace) will be saved. This statement is a validation of God's promise to the Fathers.

    The rest of the passages about "calling" refer to the hearing and belief in the Gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I will grant that you are correct. In almost every Parable on the Kingdom, it is either stated or implied, that some who were appointed to the Kingdom "inherited", or "entered" it, while some who were appointed to it failed to enter. So I naturally looked for this factor in this Parable too. And I found a verse concerning those who murmured. Don't forget God's reaction to murmuring - a great plague in Numbers 11 and fiery serpents in Numbers 21, both of which killed a hoard of God's People. And in this verse I found in the Parable, those who murmured were ordered to, "Take that thine is, and go thy way: ... ." (Matthew 20:14). Now, if they were in the Vineyard, "go your way" means that they must leave the vineyard! What say you to this? Did I miss something, or perhaps you ... ? I don't know, and I don't want to be quick to judge.

    Lastly, thank you for your gracious comments about my mind. But I can assure you that I'm very average. I would rather like to think that what I have learned is because God gave it. I would like to mime John Baptist in John 3:27; "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." But that, by far, does not mean I cannot err or miss something. So the debate must go on. We can all learn from each other.
    As I said before, the key to successfully interpreting a parable is to recognize those aspects that merely enrich or support the narrative but themselves have no direct application to the overall moral of the story. Thus the central element in the story is the "penny" and the various hours the workers came in. It is impossible to substantiate the case that those who murmured were sent out of the kingdom. Remember the opening statement..."the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man householder..." This plainly indicates that this event played out in heaven, and there's no scripture that says one can be cast out from heaven after they have entered.

    In the parable, Jesus merely expounded that the access into heaven is the same in value. Missing the substance to concentrate on the inconsequential can curtail the understanding of a text. Remember the analogy where Jesus spoke about the sons of a king who sent them on errands? The first said, yes sir, I will do but never did the father's bidding. And the other bluntly refused the father when instructed, but later changed his mind and went fulfilled his father's bidding. Jesus later ask his disciples "who among the brothers do they reckon made their father happy?"

    Also, as demonstrated above, if we accept that the events happened in the kingdom of God and ALL received the pass that allowed them in, then "take thine and go thine way" should not be interpreted as a commandment to leave heaven.

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