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Thread: works the most gets the most

  1. #31
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    "Everlasting Life" is not even mentioned. The Parable is about the Kingdom. "Inherit" is different to EARN. The workers all EARNED a penny, but did the murmurers gain the Kingdom? Why are they told to "go your way"? I would appreciate your exegesis on this.
    So how do you explain the penny they received like everyone else? Is their penny any less than those who weren't asked to "go thine way"?

  2. #32
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Sure it is. Did you read post #20? Ch 20:1 starts with "For" because it's not the start of a topic but a continuation from the previous chapter. 19:29, just 2 verses before 20:1, is where we find "everlasting life". We also have

    19:30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
    and
    20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last.

    So we have one continuous flow from Jesus......
    19:29 And whoever has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
    30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
    20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
    ........
    ....
    20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last.

    You can't properly interpret the parable without the backstory, what took place before it, and why Jesus told it. So you have to go back to the rich young ruler. Context is everything.


    Yes, I pointed that out in post #20. The one hundred fold for personal sacrifice cannot be a penny because everyone's sacrifice is different. One sacrifice multiplied by 100 pennies is not a penny. They were only given a penny. The penny is everlasting life from 19:29 and is what both the first and the last groups equally receive for simply participating in the work in the vineyard. Also verified in the next chapter, where Jesus shows the group that does not inherit everlasting life...

    21:28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 The boy answered, ‘I will not.’ But later he had a change of heart and went. 30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, tax collectors and prostitutes will go ahead of you into the kingdom of God! 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him. But the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe. Although you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him.

    Here we find one of the few times Matthew used the koG phrase, the spiritual aspects of The Kingdom. Those that work in the vineyard enter the koG - everlasting life.


    Yes. Jesus called him "Friend"


    19:28 says they were in it -"when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne" and 20:14 says "Take what is yours and go." Since they received the penny which is everlasting life and not reward for personal sacrifice, they got to remain in the koh and were told to go wherever they wished to go in the kingdom, or....go do what you are supposed to go do, or....the conversation is over.....
    I have read your reply and noted it. I appreciate your effort in this comprehensive answer. Well have you said that the Parable is based on the dialogue of the end of Chapter 19, and my only comment is that is that in this preamble some will, and some will not enter the Kingdom. The rich man will NOT, unless he casts himself on God. Then, the Apostles will sit on thrones BECAUSE they forsook all. Implied is that a man who does not forsake all will not sit on a throne. And it is again implied in the last verses that one who does not forsake, "... houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake", shall NOT, "... receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

    The preamble in Chapter 19 EMPHASIZES that some will NOT enter the Kingdom.

    Your argument that our Lord Jesus called him "Friend" is a good one. It is generally positive. But consider these:
    • In Matthew 22:12 the one cast out of the wedding feast was called "Friend"
    • In Matthew 26:50 our Lord Jesus called Judas, who had a devil, "Friend"

    But I agree that you might be correct and that the Parable might not show who got into the Kingdom or Not. It starts with who is first and then who is last. That must be the main theme.

    Go well brother.

    P.S. Have you ever thought of doing a study to find out the difference between "HAVING" eternal life and "ENTERING" or "INHERITING" everlasting life. It is quite interesting. All the scriptures that talk of HAVING eternal life indicate FAITH as the way. But all the scriptures that talk of inheriting, or entering everlasting life talk of WORKS. Interesting.

  3. #33
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thank you, Walls, I always appreciate the depth of your arguments. But I will reiterate that SALVATION (promise of eternal life) is ONE and the same, it has no variations. Your claim to various versions thereof is unfounded.

    1. In Matt 8:25 the disciples urged the Lord to save them from drowning, hence, 'save' here refers to that of the flesh. But my focus is the saving of the soul. Bear this in mind as we progress.
    2. Matt 10:22 is the saving of the soul. It's about those who receive and believe the Gospel and went on to endure/persevere from the persecution arising from their faith to the end of their life. This is about SALVATION of the soul. By throwing Eph 2:8-9 into the mix, you're confusing the argument because the latter didn't say that the recipients of the free gift (salvation) will not suffer persecution.
    3. Acts 4:12 refers to the saving of the soul, i.e. salvation/eternal life. Heb 11:7 OTOH refers to the saving of the flesh as in Matt 8:25.
    4. Rom 10:13 is about saving the soul. In 1 Cor 7:16 Paul argued that a believing wife married to an unbelieving husband should not divorce or send him away on the hope that the wife may convert the husband in due course, thereby saving his soul.

    A careful review of your remarks plainly indicates that you consistently failed to understand the distinction between the saving of the flesh and that of the soul. For e.g., one could be saved from a gunshot wound to continue enjoying their life, but may ultimately lose their soul in hellfire when they die, depending on whether they believed in Christ or not. Once you understand this contrast, everything will fall into place.

    Again, your assertion to different salvations is unscriptural and unfounded. There's only ONE SALVATION irrespective of how, when, where or who received it. Your argument about Israel's salvation can easily be explained with the understanding that your position is not about a different salvation for Israel, rather it's about their pathway to that salvation that is on focus. For example, let's say that a football stadium is the Kingdom of Heaven. And those seeking to enter the stadium come from every nook and corner of the earth and in the end, the successful all get in and participate in the events.

    So irrespective of when Israel comes to faith, how (who persuaded them, e.g. the 2Ws, etc) or when, now or at the end times, what counts is that those who believe will ultimately accept the Messiah they have rejected all along. Their salvation will be no different from that of the Gentile since it is the same God that saves ALL.

    Unfortunately, what you presented as evidence of different salvations has failed to prove anything because 'different salvations' just doesn't exist! According to Acts 4:12 that you quoted, it says there's no other name under heaven whereby one can be saved, but Jesus. The question for you is, why is Israel in unbelief presently? Is it not because of their rejection of 'JESUS' as their Lord and saviour?. Now, with regard to Israel's salvation as you put it, is there any scripture that says they will be saved/receive salvation/eternal life without accepting Jesus? If you have such scripture, I would like to examine it.

    You see, my dear Brother, there is no such thing as different salvations. What we have are the many pathways that lead the Jew/Gentile to Christ as demonstrated in the parable in Matt 20.
    OK: You stated your appreciation of the matter and I think that nothing more I say will change it. I'll draw the line here on the matter. Go well bro.

  4. #34
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So how do you explain the penny they received like everyone else? Is their penny any less than those who weren't asked to "go thine way"?
    See my posting #32 to brother Noeb. God bless.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    See my posting #32 to brother Noeb. God bless.
    I've read it but I'm not sure of its relevance to Matt 20. Apparently, you were responding to a remark made by Noeb that I haven't read so, unfortunately, hence I couldn't get a handle on what the argument is all about.

  6. #36
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So how do you explain the penny they received like everyone else? Is their penny any less than those who weren't asked to "go thine way"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I've read it but I'm not sure of its relevance to Matt 20. Apparently, you were responding to a remark made by Noeb that I haven't read so, unfortunately, hence I couldn't get a handle on what the argument is all about.
    As I have said, there is not much more to be said by both of us. We've stated our views of the Parable, some with exegesis. The interested reader will note the arguments and/or lack of argument in some posts, and decide. If you note the postings, you will note that no definitive interpretation was given of;
    • The setting - the continuation of Chapter 19 with three cases of some entering the Kingdom and the implication that some would not
    • The Vineyard as an element of the Kingdom
    • The workers who had an agreement with the Master in regard to the Kingdom - not salvation
    • The workers in the marketplace in relation to the Kingdom
    • The workers who made no agreement in relation to the Kingdom
    • The penny that all received equally irrespective of time served
    • What "Day" the penny applied to
    • Why those who had an agreement were told to "go their way"
    • Why are the first are last and visa versa in regard to the Kingdom.
    • Why some posters insert "salvation" when it is not mentioned in the Parable
    • Why some posters insert "everlasting life" when it is not mentioned in the Parable

    You will note of course that the Parable is directed at the Disciples, that is, they are already followers of Christ. You will note also that Matthew assumes the rebirth for the Disciples for the Lord speaks to THEM of "YOUR Father" (in at least 15 verses of Matthew). Your Father is the one you were born of. Doubly, Matthew assumes the rebirth for Disciples because you cannot SEE the Kingdom without rebirth (Jn.3:3). So rebirth and salvation and eternal life are ASSUMED. The Parable explains then the Kingdom ONLY.

    Matthew 13:10-13 gives the reason for the Parables. They are ONLY for the Disciples. But equally they are "mysteries" of the Kingdom. What then is the "mystery" of the Vineyard and its Workers? What say you to these critical points? You have been fascinated by this Parable for some time. What is your understanding of these points?

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I have read your reply and noted it. I appreciate your effort in this comprehensive answer. Well have you said that the Parable is based on the dialogue of the end of Chapter 19, and my only comment is that is that in this preamble some will, and some will not enter the Kingdom. The rich man will NOT, unless he casts himself on God.
    I agree. Last we heard the rich man wasn't willing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Then, the Apostles will sit on thrones BECAUSE they forsook all. Implied is that a man who does not forsake all will not sit on a throne.
    You don't really think everyone that forsakes all will sit on a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel do ya? There's only twelve thrones for this after all. Jesus is talking about those that followed him during his earthly ministry - 12 disciples. I can't apply this to everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    And it is again implied in the last verses that one who does not forsake, "... houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake", shall NOT, "... receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
    Of course. Those that do not don't work in the vineyard do not inherit. All that work in the vineyard inherit. That is clear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The preamble in Chapter 19 EMPHASIZES that some will NOT enter the Kingdom.
    Where are you looking? Of course some don't inherit because not all forsake and labor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your argument that our Lord Jesus called him "Friend" is a good one. It is generally positive. But consider these:
    • In Matthew 22:12 the one cast out of the wedding feast was called "Friend"
    • In Matthew 26:50 our Lord Jesus called Judas, who had a devil, "Friend"
    OK, I will say then that we know the Friend at the wedding feast was cast out, much is said about Judas so we know what is going on there, and the Friend in Mat 20 remained in the koh as far as we know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But I agree that you might be correct and that the Parable might not show who got into the Kingdom or Not.
    I don't recall saying that. I said all that all that worked in the vineyard received everlasting life/received a penny because that is what Jesus said. Just because we receive something doesn't mean we can't lose it. The earthly reign is not the end after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It starts with who is first and then who is last. That must be the main theme.
    Agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Go well brother.
    You as well brother!


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    P.S. Have you ever thought of doing a study to find out the difference between "HAVING" eternal life and "ENTERING" or "INHERITING" everlasting life. It is quite interesting. All the scriptures that talk of HAVING eternal life indicate FAITH as the way. But all the scriptures that talk of inheriting, or entering everlasting life talk of WORKS. Interesting.
    I have and have, and yo are correct. Faith has works. If it does not it doesn't exist - is dead.

  8. #38
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    Mat 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
    Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
    Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
    Mat 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
    Mat 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
    Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
    Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
    Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
    Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
    Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
    Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
    Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
    Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
    Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
    Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
    Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    how is it just that the ones who labored for the leat amount of time receive the same as the ones who suffered the brunt of the day? surly we see it just for a man to recieve according to his effort. he who works the most gets the most. or is the reward in the case of the Kingdom of Heaven is that the same is for all? The Lord God did tell Abraham He was Abraham's great reward, but it would seem the parable of the talents shows otherwise when it comes to amounts. Jesus says this result in the parable of the laborers is right and just or "good" so therefore it is.

    Is it simply the agreement? The fulfillment of the agreement according to the agreement is right and just. and one is only entitle the fulfillment of the agreement at hand. therefore the Lord describes it evil to expect otherwise.
    I think the following is meant: All workers receive the same amount, but the latter go for the first. Those who labor all day are those who followed Christ in His earthly ministry. Those who came at the third hour are those who come with the Outpouring of the Spirit. Who come at 6th and 9th hours are like the Samaritans and Cornelius. Those who come at the 11th hour are those who will preach the gospel of the Kingdom in the future as a testimony, to all nations Mat. 24:14. Then it is the last hour, 1 John. 2:18. (John writes in advance this word and only then gets its full fulfillment).

    Again it turns out that Kingdom of Heaven is the earthly kingdom for Israel. The last called to preach the gospel of the Kingdom will be the first to receive their wages. That reward is aionic life, that is, the life of the coming aion.

    Why will they be the first? Because they go into life and the others who have already labored have to get up (resurrected) first. That is the resurrection at the last day, John 11:24. Those who are the last and still be the first, live and labor all those days (and perhaps more) for the Kingdom.

    Where now the Kingdom has been postponed by other dispensations, this part of God's word, namely the work in the vineyard, which is the house of Israel, Isa. 5:7, is also interrupted. Now the vine is brought out of Egypt, Psa. 80:8, burned with fire and cut off, 16. First Israel must be brought back (at least in part) v. 19, the Lord will be able to make His face shine, that is, to redeem them. During the partial recovery, the last hour runs.

    Although Israel is back in the land, it is still Lo-Ammi and the dispensation of the Grace and the dispensation of the Mystery still run, so this is still future do date.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I think the following is meant: All workers receive the same amount, but the latter go for the first. Those who labor all day are those who followed Christ in His earthly ministry. Those who came at the third hour are those who come with the Outpouring of the Spirit. Who come at 6th and 9th hours are like the Samaritans and Cornelius. Those who come at the 11th hour are those who will preach the gospel of the Kingdom in the future as a testimony, to all nations Mat. 24:14. Then it is the last hour, 1 John. 2:18. (John writes in advance this word and only then gets its full fulfillment).

    Again it turns out that Kingdom of Heaven is the earthly kingdom for Israel. The last called to preach the gospel of the Kingdom will be the first to receive their wages. That reward is aionic life, that is, the life of the coming aion.

    Why will they be the first? Because they go into life and the others who have already labored have to get up (resurrected) first. That is the resurrection at the last day, John 11:24. Those who are the last and still be the first, live and labor all those days (and perhaps more) for the Kingdom.

    Where now the Kingdom has been postponed by other dispensations, this part of God's word, namely the work in the vineyard, which is the house of Israel, Isa. 5:7, is also interrupted. Now the vine is brought out of Egypt, Psa. 80:8, burned with fire and cut off, 16. First Israel must be brought back (at least in part) v. 19, the Lord will be able to make His face shine, that is, to redeem them. During the partial recovery, the last hour runs.

    Although Israel is back in the land, it is still Lo-Ammi and the dispensation of the Grace and the dispensation of the Mystery still run, so this is still future do date.

    Aristarkos
    Since you give no reason from scripture for your exegesis, it must be called "private interpretation". Private interpretation always ends badly (2nd Pet.1:20). You have one insurmountable problem in your posting above. The Kingdom cannot mean Israel. The Kingdom is ripped away from Israel. Matthew 21:43, 45; "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof .... 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them."

    In the preceding Parable (21:33-42), which forms the context of Matthew 21:43, also on the Vineyard, Israel is meant. There can be no doubt that as far as the Kingdom of Heaven goes, Israel will be SUBJECTS and not rulers being FRUITLESS. But there is another Vineyard, because Christ is a Vine (Jn.15). A Tree in Parable is always a king and his kingdom, and the Vineyard of Chapter 19 is a Parable of those who heeded the call to work in it. Israel refused it, so the Laborers of Chapter 19 CANNOT be Israelites.

    Here are further problems with your understanding;
    • The Parable is not about those who followed Christ. That is a matter of FAITH. These Laborers OBEYED - a WORK
    • The Parable is not about having Eternal Life - a product of FAITH. It is about SERVING - a WORK
    • The Parable could not be divided into parts of the age of grace because those who followed Christ in His earthly ministry did not serve during the WHOLE age of grace. They, like all men, died, and their service ended
    • The resurrection for the Kingdom is ONE event and the Living must wait for this and go TOGETHER (1st Thess.4:16-17). Thus, there is no "first-last" in the resurrection
    • The Parable does not show any "interruption". The workers of the early morning worked ALL DAY without pause
    • The "first being last" is a matter of the Master handing out reward, not the length of the day

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Since you give no reason from scripture for your exegesis, it must be called "private interpretation". Private interpretation always ends badly (2nd Pet.1:20).
    Amazing you see it that way, I wasn't aware I have to supply all Scripture everywhere, do you?

    You have one insurmountable problem in your posting above.
    No I really don't.

    The Kingdom cannot mean Israel. The Kingdom is ripped away from Israel. Matthew 21:43, 45; "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof .... 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them."
    Ripped away are your words, not Scriptures. It says « The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof ». This nation (singular) is still Israel but Israel in the future, the Gentiles are never called a nation.

    In the preceding Parable (21:33-42), which forms the context of Matthew 21:43, also on the Vineyard, Israel is meant. There can be no doubt that as far as the Kingdom of Heaven goes, Israel will be SUBJECTS and not rulers being FRUITLESS. But there is another Vineyard, because Christ is a Vine (Jn.15). A Tree in Parable is always a king and his kingdom, and the Vineyard of Chapter 19 is a Parable of those who heeded the call to work in it. Israel refused it, so the Laborers of Chapter 19 CANNOT be Israelites.
    Why not? Christ — while in the flesh — says I'm a vine, Israel is the vineyard Isa. 5:7, Gentiles are not called a vineyard.

    Are you aware of the symbolism of Judges 9? I'll keep is short with the risk you accuse me again of private interpretation but so be it.

    The four trees mentioned symbolized four aspects of Israel. First find the fig tree, Gen. 3:7, then the bramble, Gen. 3:18, the olive tree, Gen 8:11, then the vine, Gen. 9:20.

    1. The fig tree in particular symbolizes Israel's national position. This is particularly evident from the first three Gospels. Israel, with respect to its national position, was like a fig tree planted in a vineyard, Luke 13. The vineyard here refers more to the land of Canaan, not Israel as a people.

    Luke 13:6 — 9 points to Israel's failure. The lord of the vineyard came and sought fruit for three years in a row, but none of them was found. He wants to have the tree hewn out now because it uses its place unprofitable. At the request of the dresser, it may remain for another year; it will be fertilized; if it does not produce fruit after that, it will be hewn out.

    In Mat. 21:19 — 21 and Mark 11:13, 14, 20 and 21 we find the history of the withered fig tree and the word of the curse: « Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever ». This symbolizes Israel's rejection and its duration. It will no longer produce fruit as a nation « forever ».
    Some comments are needed here.
    First, something about « forever ». This term can mean two things:
    a: during the age in which one lives;
    b: always lasting while the subject or object to which it relates is there.
    I believe that both meanings are contained here in the one term. Related to the tree it means here by the denial: never again; it would never produce fruit. Related to the symbol, Israel as a people, it means: no fruit during this aion. This runs until Christ's return. Only then will it fulfill its national calling again.

    Secondly, about the seemingly absurd, that the tree was cursed because it had no fruit, yet it was not the time of the fruit. It should be noted that the fig tree blooms before it has leaves (as in our case, for example, the willow tree). The rich leave therefore assumed a powerful, luxuriant tree, between the leaves might very well be expected to be young figs. It was not yet the time of the ripe figs of the fully grown fruits, but the unripe ones were also eaten. As soon as the winter was over, the fig tree produced its young figs, Song of Songs 2:13. That could also have been the case with this tree. Nah. 3:12 speaks of the first fruits of the fig tree; if they are shaken, they fall on the mouth of who wants to eat. This shows that fruit might be expected and even if it was not mature, it could have been there in principle. The judgment was therefore just; a lot of leaves, but no fruit, an image of Israel's external righteousness, but no true godliness. The luxuriant and good fruit were missing.

    The judgment on the fig tree came instantly; that about Israel is postponed « one year ». Luke 13 « Year » should of course not be taken literally by itself. If we see Luke 13 figuratively, we will understand the meaning. The Lord had let Israel work through three ministries (that is, the three years). In it the people were called to repentance. That's what John the Baptist did, Mat. 3:2, the Lord Jesus Himself, 4:17, and He did that through His apostles, Acts 2:38, 3:19.

    But also no fruit at that time. Once again He did it through Paul's conversion, that should provoke Israel to jealousy. This has not helped either and so the tree has been hewn out afterwards.

    Forever? No. See Luke 21: « And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand ». The tree that has been hewed out will spring up again when the summer — Christ's government on earth — is near and then produce its fruit. The good figs will according to Jer. 24:6 and 7 be brought back and they (Israel) become God 's people, for they will return with their whole heart.

    2. The bramble symbolizes Israel in the end time. There is no direct evidence for this. It follows laterally from other Scriptures. Once the apostasy comes over Israel, 2 Thes. 2:3, Dan. 8:23. Then the time of the bramble begins. The power that will once dominate the world will go under and the power that gave that dominion will take it back by force. Shechem's citizens stand to Abimelech, as the world leaders will once stand to Israel. First caught up, later rejected. Then the apostate part of Israel becomes the bramble that will then go up in flames. Babel, its center, will be burned with literal fire.

    3. The olive tree symbolizes especially Israel's spiritual privileges. Its oil served for the lamps of the candlestick, Exo. 27:20, 30:24, Lev. 24:2. It is particularly connected to the house of God. David wishes to be an olive tree in the house of God, Psa. 52:10. That gives blessing for others. The olive oil gives illumination and fatness, the one for the house of God, the other for the eater of its fruit. The olive tree symbolizes the bearer of the words of God, Rom. 3:2 to be familiar with His revealed will and to use it for the enlightenment of others and not for one's own benefit, hence Paul had to be sent out and fulfill Israel's service. It also wasn't useful for own benefit, because it thought as the bearer of the Words of God to be freed of the punishments contained in it. It sought to establish its own righteousness and did not come to the law of righteousness, Rom. 9:31, 32.

    That the olive tree does not symbolize Israel as a nation, but in another sense, is shown by Rom. 11. In it Paul speaks of two olive trees, the tame and the wild. The wild symbolizes the Gentiles, but not according to their nationality, but to their spiritual goods. The tame also symbolizes Israel to those goods. After all, those who were grafted into the tame olive tree did not become Jews or Israelites. It shows that this is not something national, but something else. The nations were no light bearers; they were not entrusted with the words of God. The wild olive tree was appreciated for its wood, 1 Kon. 6:23, 31, but its oil was inferior to that of the tame ones. If we convey this metaphorically, we can say that beautiful figures from the Gentile world have come up looking for the foundation of things (for example, Plato, Socrates, etc.) but their light is inferior in comparison to the revelation of God given to Israel. Psa. 147:19 and 20 say: « He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD ». None of the nations had a promise, no supernatural illumination, no special revelation. They were without Christ, strangers of the covenants, without hope and without (knowledge of the true) God in the world, Eph. 2:12. Israel, on the other hand, was the bearer of many words and promises, many prophecies and predictions. They were part of enlightenment and fatness and that could also become the personal property of the Israelite. Did not Moses already desire that all the people of the Lord be prophets? I keep the olive tree for the symbol of the enlightenment of Israel. As soon as it was followed by the regeneration, it could become greasy for the person concerned. Then it could make them drink (be filled) with the fatness of God's house, Psa. 36:8.

    4. The vine symbolizes Israel's social privileges. Isa. 5 points to that. God waited for justice and righteousness but it became scabies and screams. The wine that makes the heart of God and people happy is not produced. Is this « wine » not doing justice to civil and civic grounds. Israel's princes were apostates, companions of the thieves, contractors of gifts. They did not do justice to the orphans, they did not deal with the cause of the widows, Isa. 1:23. Whoever wanted to see his sin forgiven, had to begin to discard the evil of his actions before God's eyes, to abandon evil, to learn to do good, to seek justice, to help the oppressed, to do justice to the orphan, to deal with the dispute of the widow, Isa. 1:16, 17. Only then could he come before God, v. 18. The vine, for example, looks at Israel's social privileges, the civil law and society of the chosen people.

    Israel as a vineyard has failed. The Lord says this in Jer. 2:21: « Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me? » And in Hos. 10:1: « Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself », that is, it only produces fruit for itself. It did not produce either for God nor the people. Nothing was made from the wood of the natural vine, not even a pin. It was only burned when it was withered, Eze. 15. So would also Israel perish.

    Christ calls Himself the true vine. He produced fruit that will delight the heart of God and man and rejoice in the future. He will bring forth justice and righteousness on earth and will rule. « And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins » Isa. 10:5. « Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment ». 32:1.

    In John 15 we find the familiar resemblance. He the vine, His the branches. Those who do not remain in Him are taken away. His own are cleansed by the word of truth. Israel as a people had no part in Him. Here the image is used to indicate community of life.

    I believe that where they relate to Israel as a people in the Land, one should not transfer the symbolism to « the » church of today. First of all, there is no single church at present, but the generations of heaven and earth are being prepared, and applying both to Israel as a whole is incorrect. That is why they should not be transferred to « the » Church to which one wants to give more fullness than Israel had. Third, the fig tree represents the national blessing, the vine the civil-social. How will it be transferred to « the » church, which one grants a heavenly calling? At most, one could do this with the olive tree as a bearer of spiritual blessings on the basis of Rom. 11: the grafting in the tame. But then one is stuck with Scripture and reality. Now there is no Israel (still Lo-Ammi) to graft the wild olive in, for Israel has been rejected. That was only true in the days when Paul wrote it (and before that, from his separation in Acts 13). God has already foretold that the olive would be burned. « The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken » Jer. 11:16. One can say: that concerns Israel's exile to Babylon. I admit that. But the fact that Israel was later taken out of its Land again and its cities were burned proves that we may also apply the word to the year 70 AD. Even then, the olive tree was taken away. And therefore one can not apply the idea of olive to « the » church. And fourthly, one speaks of « the » church and willingly presents the prophecies and other Scriptures to this church spiritually, while one loses sight of the fact that « the » church that is actually meant, has been an absolute mystery in God until after Rom. 11 so that one can not transfer the preceding images without mixing what God has separated. For me there is now also not the condition of Rom. 11, the wild olive grafted in the tame, because the Olive tree is burned.

    Here are further problems with your understanding;
    • The Parable is not about those who followed Christ. That is a matter of FAITH. These Laborers OBEYED - a WORK
    • The Parable is not about having Eternal Life - a product of FAITH. It is about SERVING - a WORK
    • The Parable could not be divided into parts of the age of grace because those who followed Christ in His earthly ministry did not serve during the WHOLE age of grace. They, like all men, died, and their service ended
    • The resurrection for the Kingdom is ONE event and the Living must wait for this and go TOGETHER (1st Thess.4:16-17). Thus, there is no "first-last" in the resurrection
    • The Parable does not show any "interruption". The workers of the early morning worked ALL DAY without pause
    • The "first being last" is a matter of the Master handing out reward, not the length of the day
    Aristarkos

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Amazing you see it that way, I wasn't aware I have to supply all Scripture everywhere, do you?
    I like to think that I do, but "everywhere" ... probably not. But in interpreting a Parable the relavent scriptures should be there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Ripped away are your words, not Scriptures. It says « The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof ». This nation (singular) is still Israel but Israel in the future, the Gentiles are never called a nation.
    The meaning of the Greek word used, "airo", is "snatched away". Its sense can be seen in its usage in John 1:29 where our sin and that of the world, are "snatched away" by Christ's awful death. Its more gentle meaning is "hoisted up" like a ship in dry dock, but this still implies power is used. AS to the word "nation", it is "Ethnos" in the Greek and its true meaning is "People of a common origin". And who this "Ethnos" is is seen clearly in Matthew 16 and 18. The "keys of the Kingdom" are given to the disciples who are taken OUT of Israel and have become a New Man. Added to this, the QUALIFICATION for seeing and entering the Kingdom is REBIRTH. This is by faith (Jn.1:12-13, 3:3-5). ALL Israel is in UNBELIEF (Rom.11.32).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Why not? Christ — while in the flesh — says I'm a vine, Israel is the vineyard Isa. 5:7, Gentiles are not called a vineyard.

    Are you aware of the symbolism of Judges 9? I'll keep is short with the risk you accuse me again of private interpretation but so be it.

    The four trees mentioned symbolized four aspects of Israel. First find the fig tree, Gen. 3:7, then the bramble, Gen. 3:18, the olive tree, Gen 8:11, then the vine, Gen. 9:20.

    1. The fig tree in particular symbolizes Israel's national position. This is particularly evident from the first three Gospels. Israel, with respect to its national position, was like a fig tree planted in a vineyard, Luke 13. The vineyard here refers more to the land of Canaan, not Israel as a people.

    Luke 13:6 — 9 points to Israel's failure. The lord of the vineyard came and sought fruit for three years in a row, but none of them was found. He wants to have the tree hewn out now because it uses its place unprofitable. At the request of the dresser, it may remain for another year; it will be fertilized; if it does not produce fruit after that, it will be hewn out.

    In Mat. 21:19 — 21 and Mark 11:13, 14, 20 and 21 we find the history of the withered fig tree and the word of the curse: « Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever ». This symbolizes Israel's rejection and its duration. It will no longer produce fruit as a nation « forever ».
    Some comments are needed here.
    First, something about « forever ». This term can mean two things:
    a: during the age in which one lives;
    b: always lasting while the subject or object to which it relates is there.
    I believe that both meanings are contained here in the one term. Related to the tree it means here by the denial: never again; it would never produce fruit. Related to the symbol, Israel as a people, it means: no fruit during this aion. This runs until Christ's return. Only then will it fulfill its national calling again.

    Secondly, about the seemingly absurd, that the tree was cursed because it had no fruit, yet it was not the time of the fruit. It should be noted that the fig tree blooms before it has leaves (as in our case, for example, the willow tree). The rich leave therefore assumed a powerful, luxuriant tree, between the leaves might very well be expected to be young figs. It was not yet the time of the ripe figs of the fully grown fruits, but the unripe ones were also eaten. As soon as the winter was over, the fig tree produced its young figs, Song of Songs 2:13. That could also have been the case with this tree. Nah. 3:12 speaks of the first fruits of the fig tree; if they are shaken, they fall on the mouth of who wants to eat. This shows that fruit might be expected and even if it was not mature, it could have been there in principle. The judgment was therefore just; a lot of leaves, but no fruit, an image of Israel's external righteousness, but no true godliness. The luxuriant and good fruit were missing.

    The judgment on the fig tree came instantly; that about Israel is postponed « one year ». Luke 13 « Year » should of course not be taken literally by itself. If we see Luke 13 figuratively, we will understand the meaning. The Lord had let Israel work through three ministries (that is, the three years). In it the people were called to repentance. That's what John the Baptist did, Mat. 3:2, the Lord Jesus Himself, 4:17, and He did that through His apostles, Acts 2:38, 3:19.

    But also no fruit at that time. Once again He did it through Paul's conversion, that should provoke Israel to jealousy. This has not helped either and so the tree has been hewn out afterwards.

    Forever? No. See Luke 21: « And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand ». The tree that has been hewed out will spring up again when the summer — Christ's government on earth — is near and then produce its fruit. The good figs will according to Jer. 24:6 and 7 be brought back and they (Israel) become God 's people, for they will return with their whole heart.

    2. The bramble symbolizes Israel in the end time. There is no direct evidence for this. It follows laterally from other Scriptures. Once the apostasy comes over Israel, 2 Thes. 2:3, Dan. 8:23. Then the time of the bramble begins. The power that will once dominate the world will go under and the power that gave that dominion will take it back by force. Shechem's citizens stand to Abimelech, as the world leaders will once stand to Israel. First caught up, later rejected. Then the apostate part of Israel becomes the bramble that will then go up in flames. Babel, its center, will be burned with literal fire.

    3. The olive tree symbolizes especially Israel's spiritual privileges. Its oil served for the lamps of the candlestick, Exo. 27:20, 30:24, Lev. 24:2. It is particularly connected to the house of God. David wishes to be an olive tree in the house of God, Psa. 52:10. That gives blessing for others. The olive oil gives illumination and fatness, the one for the house of God, the other for the eater of its fruit. The olive tree symbolizes the bearer of the words of God, Rom. 3:2 to be familiar with His revealed will and to use it for the enlightenment of others and not for one's own benefit, hence Paul had to be sent out and fulfill Israel's service. It also wasn't useful for own benefit, because it thought as the bearer of the Words of God to be freed of the punishments contained in it. It sought to establish its own righteousness and did not come to the law of righteousness, Rom. 9:31, 32.

    That the olive tree does not symbolize Israel as a nation, but in another sense, is shown by Rom. 11. In it Paul speaks of two olive trees, the tame and the wild. The wild symbolizes the Gentiles, but not according to their nationality, but to their spiritual goods. The tame also symbolizes Israel to those goods. After all, those who were grafted into the tame olive tree did not become Jews or Israelites. It shows that this is not something national, but something else. The nations were no light bearers; they were not entrusted with the words of God. The wild olive tree was appreciated for its wood, 1 Kon. 6:23, 31, but its oil was inferior to that of the tame ones. If we convey this metaphorically, we can say that beautiful figures from the Gentile world have come up looking for the foundation of things (for example, Plato, Socrates, etc.) but their light is inferior in comparison to the revelation of God given to Israel. Psa. 147:19 and 20 say: « He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD ». None of the nations had a promise, no supernatural illumination, no special revelation. They were without Christ, strangers of the covenants, without hope and without (knowledge of the true) God in the world, Eph. 2:12. Israel, on the other hand, was the bearer of many words and promises, many prophecies and predictions. They were part of enlightenment and fatness and that could also become the personal property of the Israelite. Did not Moses already desire that all the people of the Lord be prophets? I keep the olive tree for the symbol of the enlightenment of Israel. As soon as it was followed by the regeneration, it could become greasy for the person concerned. Then it could make them drink (be filled) with the fatness of God's house, Psa. 36:8.

    4. The vine symbolizes Israel's social privileges. Isa. 5 points to that. God waited for justice and righteousness but it became scabies and screams. The wine that makes the heart of God and people happy is not produced. Is this « wine » not doing justice to civil and civic grounds. Israel's princes were apostates, companions of the thieves, contractors of gifts. They did not do justice to the orphans, they did not deal with the cause of the widows, Isa. 1:23. Whoever wanted to see his sin forgiven, had to begin to discard the evil of his actions before God's eyes, to abandon evil, to learn to do good, to seek justice, to help the oppressed, to do justice to the orphan, to deal with the dispute of the widow, Isa. 1:16, 17. Only then could he come before God, v. 18. The vine, for example, looks at Israel's social privileges, the civil law and society of the chosen people.

    Israel as a vineyard has failed. The Lord says this in Jer. 2:21: « Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me? » And in Hos. 10:1: « Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself », that is, it only produces fruit for itself. It did not produce either for God nor the people. Nothing was made from the wood of the natural vine, not even a pin. It was only burned when it was withered, Eze. 15. So would also Israel perish.

    Christ calls Himself the true vine. He produced fruit that will delight the heart of God and man and rejoice in the future. He will bring forth justice and righteousness on earth and will rule. « And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins » Isa. 10:5. « Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment ». 32:1.

    In John 15 we find the familiar resemblance. He the vine, His the branches. Those who do not remain in Him are taken away. His own are cleansed by the word of truth. Israel as a people had no part in Him. Here the image is used to indicate community of life.

    I believe that where they relate to Israel as a people in the Land, one should not transfer the symbolism to « the » church of today. First of all, there is no single church at present, but the generations of heaven and earth are being prepared, and applying both to Israel as a whole is incorrect. That is why they should not be transferred to « the » Church to which one wants to give more fullness than Israel had. Third, the fig tree represents the national blessing, the vine the civil-social. How will it be transferred to « the » church, which one grants a heavenly calling? At most, one could do this with the olive tree as a bearer of spiritual blessings on the basis of Rom. 11: the grafting in the tame. But then one is stuck with Scripture and reality. Now there is no Israel (still Lo-Ammi) to graft the wild olive in, for Israel has been rejected. That was only true in the days when Paul wrote it (and before that, from his separation in Acts 13). God has already foretold that the olive would be burned. « The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken » Jer. 11:16. One can say: that concerns Israel's exile to Babylon. I admit that. But the fact that Israel was later taken out of its Land again and its cities were burned proves that we may also apply the word to the year 70 AD. Even then, the olive tree was taken away. And therefore one can not apply the idea of olive to « the » church. And fourthly, one speaks of « the » church and willingly presents the prophecies and other Scriptures to this church spiritually, while one loses sight of the fact that « the » church that is actually meant, has been an absolute mystery in God until after Rom. 11 so that one can not transfer the preceding images without mixing what God has separated. For me there is now also not the condition of Rom. 11, the wild olive grafted in the tame, because the Olive tree is burned.

    Aristarkos
    Thank you for the time and effort you put into this one. Some of the things here we can agree on. You've really done your homework and I salute you. But again, in interpreting the four trees you (i) did not supply supporting scriptures for your thesis, and (ii) you ignored the main meaning which is that a Tree in Parable represents a king and his kingdom. Then, you practically ignored the Parable of the Vineyard of Matthew 21. This is important because in NEITHER Vineyard does Israel do any WORK. We could go on about what you said but the discussion at hand is the Vineyard of Matthew 20 and its Workers - people who OBEYED the call to be in the vineyard and work for fruit.

    Unfortunately you have not yet answered my last objections. But before I say anything I would like to give you the chance - say 24 hours? You'll probably need a new posting because of the length of this one above, and you need the time. I know, my lengthy explanations take a lot of time.

    Take care bro.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I like to think that I do, but "everywhere" ... probably not. But in interpreting a Parable the relavent scriptures should be there.
    However we do on this forum assume Scriptural knowledge.

    The meaning of the Greek word used, "airo", is "snatched away". Its sense can be seen in its usage in John 1:29 where our sin and that of the world, are "snatched away" by Christ's awful death. Its more gentle meaning is "hoisted up" like a ship in dry dock, but this still implies power is used. AS to the word "nation", it is "Ethnos" in the Greek and its true meaning is "People of a common origin". And who this "Ethnos" is is seen clearly in Matthew 16 and 18. The "keys of the Kingdom" are given to the disciples who are taken OUT of Israel and have become a New Man. Added to this, the QUALIFICATION for seeing and entering the Kingdom is REBIRTH. This is by faith (Jn.1:12-13, 3:3-5). ALL Israel is in UNBELIEF (Rom.11.32).
    The problem is that you and I see rebirth and new creation differently, it appears for you they are the same, for me they are not. So according to what I understand of Scripture, the next aion is the one the Lord calles the regeneration in Mat. 19:28 and the aion after that is the new creation. This explains why we see things differently.

    Thank you for the time and effort you put into this one. Some of the things here we can agree on. You've really done your homework and I salute you. But again, in interpreting the four trees you (i) did not supply supporting scriptures for your thesis, and (ii) you ignored the main meaning which is that a Tree in Parable represents a king and his kingdom. Then, you practically ignored the Parable of the Vineyard of Matthew 21. This is important because in NEITHER Vineyard does Israel do any WORK. We could go on about what you said but the discussion at hand is the Vineyard of Matthew 20 and its Workers - people who OBEYED the call to be in the vineyard and work for fruit.
    I think I did, I pointed out where they were first used in Scripture and where they were used later on. Again I think it is our different opinion of Scripture that is the real problem here.

    Unfortunately you have not yet answered my last objections. But before I say anything I would like to give you the chance - say 24 hours? You'll probably need a new posting because of the length of this one above, and you need the time. I know, my lengthy explanations take a lot of time.
    I think you mean these I'll qoute them again:

    Here are further problems with your understanding;
    1. The Parable is not about those who followed Christ. That is a matter of FAITH. These Laborers OBEYED - a WORK
    2. The Parable is not about having Eternal Life - a product of FAITH. It is about SERVING - a WORK
    3. The Parable could not be divided into parts of the age of grace because those who followed Christ in His earthly ministry did not serve during the WHOLE age of grace. They, like all men, died, and their service ended
    4. The resurrection for the Kingdom is ONE event and the Living must wait for this and go TOGETHER (1st Thess.4:16-17). Thus, there is no "first-last" in the resurrection
    5. The Parable does not show any "interruption". The workers of the early morning worked ALL DAY without pause
    6. The "first being last" is a matter of the Master handing out reward, not the length of the day
    1. Faith is only mentioned by Paul the way you are meaning it, since this is about Israel it is about work.

    2. Faith in what? You have to go to where the Israelite were at that time, they believed in YHWH and most didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah. Even the apostles didn't believe He had to die and suffer Mat. 16:21 in v. 20 they were told not to tell He was the Christ. In v. 22 Peter says to Him « ... Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not (ou me) be unto thee ». So mistaken this for the faith Paul talks about, being baptized in His death (Rom. 6:3), being in Christ (Rom. 8:3) is just that, a mistake. The gospels do not go beyond repentance.

    3. That is not what I said, the parable is not divided into parts, what the parable portrays is. There are groups which the parable portrays by the clock, third our, sixth our, ninth our, eleventh our. I've given the groups in my previous post. Your denying of Israels kingdom is what stands in the way of seeing what I said.

    4. There is no one time resurrection, there are more then one. The last day, the last hour, the last second of this aion is the resurrection Martha expected John 11:24. If there was only one, how about the taking up of 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess 4? When the Lord returns, this aion isn't finished yet, almost, but not yet. So there are more resurrections. The last trump is of course the 7th of Revelation 11:15 which unfolds in 7 bowls.

    5. It does, but again because you do not see Israel's kingdom in the future you believe it isn't there. The eleventh our is after the interruption of our dispensation.

    6. If you would see the four ministries you would see why those working at the eleventh our are still alive when the Lord returns, it has nothing to do with the length of day.

    If you still feel this is private interpretation, equally good friends.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    As I have said, there is not much more to be said by both of us. We've stated our views of the Parable, some with exegesis. The interested reader will note the arguments and/or lack of argument in some posts, and decide. If you note the postings, you will note that no definitive interpretation was given of;
    • The setting - the continuation of Chapter 19 with three cases of some entering the Kingdom and the implication that some would not
    • The Vineyard as an element of the Kingdom
    • The workers who had an agreement with the Master in regard to the Kingdom - not salvation
    • The workers in the marketplace in relation to the Kingdom
    • The workers who made no agreement in relation to the Kingdom
    • The penny that all received equally irrespective of time served
    • What "Day" the penny applied to
    • Why those who had an agreement were told to "go their way"
    • Why are the first are last and visa versa in regard to the Kingdom.
    • Why some posters insert "salvation" when it is not mentioned in the Parable
    • Why some posters insert "everlasting life" when it is not mentioned in the Parable

    You will note of course that the Parable is directed at the Disciples, that is, they are already followers of Christ. You will note also that Matthew assumes the rebirth for the Disciples for the Lord speaks to THEM of "YOUR Father" (in at least 15 verses of Matthew). Your Father is the one you were born of. Doubly, Matthew assumes the rebirth for Disciples because you cannot SEE the Kingdom without rebirth (Jn.3:3). So rebirth and salvation and eternal life are ASSUMED. The Parable explains then the Kingdom ONLY.

    Matthew 13:10-13 gives the reason for the Parables. They are ONLY for the Disciples. But equally they are "mysteries" of the Kingdom. What then is the "mystery" of the Vineyard and its Workers? What say you to these critical points? You have been fascinated by this Parable for some time. What is your understanding of these points?
    I certainly agree that we have stated our views of the parable and can do no more. I can't say my exegesis is more plausible any more than you can make such a claim. I laid out a concise easy to understand rendition of the parable and have used several posts thereafter to defend it. I have nothing more to add. It's there for the discerning reader to decide for themselves. But I will not indulge in the over theorization of a simple narrative by pulling unrelated passages in the air to claim they share similarities with the parable.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I think the following is meant: All workers receive the same amount, but the latter go for the first. Those who labor all day are those who followed Christ in His earthly ministry. Those who came at the third hour are those who come with the Outpouring of the Spirit. Who come at 6th and 9th hours are like the Samaritans and Cornelius. Those who come at the 11th hour are those who will preach the gospel of the Kingdom in the future as a testimony, to all nations Mat. 24:14. Then it is the last hour, 1 John. 2:18. (John writes in advance this word and only then gets its full fulfillment).

    Again it turns out that Kingdom of Heaven is the earthly kingdom for Israel. The last called to preach the gospel of the Kingdom will be the first to receive their wages. That reward is aionic life, that is, the life of the coming aion.

    Why will they be the first? Because they go into life and the others who have already labored have to get up (resurrected) first. That is the resurrection at the last day, John 11:24. Those who are the last and still be the first, live and labor all those days (and perhaps more) for the Kingdom.

    Where now the Kingdom has been postponed by other dispensations, this part of God's word, namely the work in the vineyard, which is the house of Israel, Isa. 5:7, is also interrupted. Now the vine is brought out of Egypt, Psa. 80:8, burned with fire and cut off, 16. First Israel must be brought back (at least in part) v. 19, the Lord will be able to make His face shine, that is, to redeem them. During the partial recovery, the last hour runs.

    Although Israel is back in the land, it is still Lo-Ammi and the dispensation of the Grace and the dispensation of the Mystery still run, so this is still future do date.

    Aristarkos
    1. If the "last" to preach the Gospel is the first to receive wages, what then is the WAGE? Why is significant that they get paid first?
    2. According to you, those who laboured from the start represent those that followed Christ' earthly ministry [the 12 disciples and other apostles like Paul?] What is your argument about them, or they different from the rest or what?
    3. Care to elaborate on the claim that those who came in between the hours are the Samaritans and Cornelius?
    4. According to Paul "those in Christ," i.e. from the Apostolic age saints to those who die at the time of his coming will arise at the SAME time. I agree there is more than one resurrection, but not as you claim.

    Try as much as I can, it is impossible to relate your interpretation to the Parable of the householder and his labourers, to be honest. But what do I know, eh?

  15. #45
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    However we do on this forum assume Scriptural knowledge.
    Please read post #5 and give your critique.

    Remain blessed.

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