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Thread: works the most gets the most

  1. #46
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Why will they be the first? Because they go into life and the others who have already labored have to get up (resurrected) first. That is the resurrection at the last day, John 11:24. Those who are the last and still be the first, live and labor all those days (and perhaps more) for the Kingdom.
    How long does scripture say it takes to get up and be with the Lord? Also, the resurrected return with him, so I don't see how the resurrection has anything to do with the order.

  2. #47
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Kingdom is ripped away from Israel. Matthew 21:43, 45; "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof .... 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them."
    This does not say the koh would be taken from Israel. It also does not say the koG would be taken from Israel. It says the koG would be taken from the leaders. The first church was full of Israeli's. Which takes me to your next point.....


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In the preceding Parable (21:33-42), which forms the context of Matthew 21:43, also on the Vineyard, Israel is meant. There can be no doubt that as far as the Kingdom of Heaven goes, Israel will be SUBJECTS and not rulers being FRUITLESS. But there is another Vineyard, because Christ is a Vine (Jn.15). A Tree in Parable is always a king and his kingdom, and the Vineyard of Chapter 19 is a Parable of those who heeded the call to work in it. Israel refused it, so the Laborers of Chapter 19 CANNOT be Israelites.
    The first church was full of Israeli's. There was then, and there has always been, a remnant.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    How long does scripture say it takes to get up and be with the Lord? Also, the resurrected return with him, so I don't see how the resurrection has anything to do with the order.
    It is not about how long it takes for the resurrection to take place, but when does it take place. Those laboring at the eleventh hour don't die so they are already there.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Please read post #5 and give your critique.

    Remain blessed.
    I've read it, and I think I've already shown my objections in my previous posts #38, #40 and #42.

    It is obvious we see things entirely different, which is quite normal for whoever discusses Scripture with me.

    Aristarkos

  5. #50
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    It is not about how long it takes for the resurrection to take place, but when does it take place. Those laboring at the eleventh hour don't die so they are already there.

    Aristarkos
    But when he appears they are changed in a twinkling of an eye and go with the resurrected to be with the Lord.

  6. #51
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    It is not about how long it takes for the resurrection to take place, but when does it take place. Those laboring at the eleventh hour don't die so they are already there.Aristarkos
    The glaring error of your position highlighted in the emboldened remark is your failure to realize that the scenario (the householder and his band of labourers) played out in HEAVEN! Therefore, the parable is not about the rapture or who gets to heaven first! Jesus started by saying:

    Matt 20:1 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.


    From the above, we know immediately that the scenario is being played out in heaven, which means that all the labourers are in the KoG since the vineyard they worked in represents heaven. The parable is not about how to get to heaven as some have falsely claimed. As we know, in every parable Jesus teaches something new about the kingdom/heaven. Some parables highlight how some are rejected and others accepted, etc.

    But in this case, Jesus simply used the parable to teach another attribute of heaven - which is that the key to heaven represented by the penny or (salvation/eternal life) is the same for everyone irrespective of the time in their life that they became saved.

    Notice also, that despite being told to "take thine and go thy way" the murmuring worker was not denied the penny! Since there is no scripture that says that someone already in heaven can be sent out, we can easily deduce that "go thine way" is not an ejection from heaven. So from the first worker to the last, ALL are in heaven.

    The penny is the only thing CONSTANT and equal in the narrative and Jesus wants the reader to pay attention to it. It is regrettable that we all can't see how the narrative revolves around it.

  7. #52
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I certainly agree that we have stated our views of the parable and can do no more. I can't say my exegesis is more plausible any more than you can make such a claim. I laid out a concise easy to understand rendition of the parable and have used several posts thereafter to defend it. I have nothing more to add. It's there for the discerning reader to decide for themselves. But I will not indulge in the over theorization of a simple narrative by pulling unrelated passages in the air to claim they share similarities with the parable.
    I think that that is our difference. The greatest Mind of the universe, in a most calculating way, laid down every word precisely. Nothing is simple. It takes the Holy Spirit to lead us to truth. If the Almighty used the sum of those words for the Parable of the Vineyard in Matthew 20, I examine every word and insert it in my exegesis. My list that you quoted in posting #43 has at least 15 aspects. And probably I missed some. You can see what "simple" exegesis does. It makes men add and subtract from the Parable - a sure way to miss the Lord's meaning. Since we are all striving for entry into the Kingdom, I think that the lessons of Matthew 20 are vital for us. Misunderstand the map and you're bound not to reach your destination.

    Anyway, lets give it a rest. I'm sure we'll meet again over some other matter. This type of critical discussion can only be good. We'll all learn something. Go well and God bless.

  8. #53
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    However we do on this forum assume Scriptural knowledge.



    The problem is that you and I see rebirth and new creation differently, it appears for you they are the same, for me they are not. So according to what I understand of Scripture, the next aion is the one the Lord calles the regeneration in Mat. 19:28 and the aion after that is the new creation. This explains why we see things differently.



    I think I did, I pointed out where they were first used in Scripture and where they were used later on. Again I think it is our different opinion of Scripture that is the real problem here.



    I think you mean these I'll qoute them again:



    1. Faith is only mentioned by Paul the way you are meaning it, since this is about Israel it is about work.

    2. Faith in what? You have to go to where the Israelite were at that time, they believed in YHWH and most didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah. Even the apostles didn't believe He had to die and suffer Mat. 16:21 in v. 20 they were told not to tell He was the Christ. In v. 22 Peter says to Him ... Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not (ou me) be unto thee . So mistaken this for the faith Paul talks about, being baptized in His death (Rom. 6:3), being in Christ (Rom. 8:3) is just that, a mistake. The gospels do not go beyond repentance.

    3. That is not what I said, the parable is not divided into parts, what the parable portrays is. There are groups which the parable portrays by the clock, third our, sixth our, ninth our, eleventh our. I've given the groups in my previous post. Your denying of Israels kingdom is what stands in the way of seeing what I said.

    4. There is no one time resurrection, there are more then one. The last day, the last hour, the last second of this aion is the resurrection Martha expected John 11:24. If there was only one, how about the taking up of 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess 4? When the Lord returns, this aion isn't finished yet, almost, but not yet. So there are more resurrections. The last trump is of course the 7th of Revelation 11:15 which unfolds in 7 bowls.

    5. It does, but again because you do not see Israel's kingdom in the future you believe it isn't there. The eleventh our is after the interruption of our dispensation.

    6. If you would see the four ministries you would see why those working at the eleventh our are still alive when the Lord returns, it has nothing to do with the length of day.

    If you still feel this is private interpretation, equally good friends.

    Aristarkos
    OK. Thanks for your answer. As with brother Trivalee, I suggest that we've given the Parable a good workout and we can take a rest. No really new information is coming out of it. Take care and God bless.

  9. #54
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    This does not say the koh would be taken from Israel. It also does not say the koG would be taken from Israel. It says the koG would be taken from the leaders. The first church was full of Israeli's. Which takes me to your next point.....


    The first church was full of Israeli's. There was then, and there has always been, a remnant.
    According to the New Testament ALL Israel is in UNBELIEF. To see and enter the Kingdom one needs the New Birth, and THAT is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13, 3:3-5). The Nation of Israel will have special status in the Millennial Kingdom because of (i) God's Promises, and (ii) Emmanuel living among them in Jerusalem. But they have no ruling function. The Kingdom is FORFEIT for ALL Israel. And so on into eternity. In New Jerusalem they are Gates, NOT the City. They are Pearls while the Walls are precious stones. It is the City that reigns (Rev.22:5). The Gates only vet who may enter.

    It is IMPOSSIBLE to have an Israeli in the Church.
    2nd Corinthians 5:17; "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
    Galatians 3:28; "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
    Colossians 3:11; "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

    Some members of the Local Church might have the passport of their nation, but in God's eyes, ethnicity, gender and social status do not exist in the Church. "ALL THINGS" are become NEW!

  10. #55
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    According to the New Testament ALL Israel is in UNBELIEF.
    So the person that wrote that was in unbelief?


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To see and enter the Kingdom one needs the New Birth
    The koh or koG? Koh no, many from all nations will enter and not be born again. KoG of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is IMPOSSIBLE to have an Israeli in the Church.

    Some members of the Local Church might have the passport of their nation, but in God's eyes, ethnicity, gender and social status do not exist in the Church. "ALL THINGS" are become NEW!
    Since I was talking nationality it's not impossible so I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. Is this what you meant when you said no Israeli's worked in the vineyard?

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The glaring error of your position highlighted in the emboldened remark is your failure to realize that the scenario (the householder and his band of labourers) played out in HEAVEN! Therefore, the parable is not about the rapture or who gets to heaven first! Jesus started by saying:

    Matt 20:1 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.


    From the above, we know immediately that the scenario is being played out in heaven, which means that all the labourers are in the KoG since the vineyard they worked in represents heaven. The parable is not about how to get to heaven as some have falsely claimed. As we know, in every parable Jesus teaches something new about the kingdom/heaven. Some parables highlight how some are rejected and others accepted, etc.

    But in this case, Jesus simply used the parable to teach another attribute of heaven - which is that the key to heaven represented by the penny or (salvation/eternal life) is the same for everyone irrespective of the time in their life that they became saved.

    Notice also, that despite being told to "take thine and go thy way" the murmuring worker was not denied the penny! Since there is no scripture that says that someone already in heaven can be sent out, we can easily deduce that "go thine way" is not an ejection from heaven. So from the first worker to the last, ALL are in heaven.

    The penny is the only thing CONSTANT and equal in the narrative and Jesus wants the reader to pay attention to it. It is regrettable that we all can't see how the narrative revolves around it.
    That's what I meant, it is not a glaring error at all. The Kingdom of Heaven is not in Heaven, but out of the heavens. It's founder (Christ) was come out of heaven to erect it. John 18:36 says ... My kingdom is not out of (Greek: ek) this world ... . All earthly kingdoms are erected by men, are out of this world, the Kingdom of Heaven isn't as it's founder came out of heaven to erect it.

    The rest of your reply is therefore irrelevant.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    But when he appears they are changed in a twinkling of an eye and go with the resurrect to be with the Lord.
    Well yes, but they never died. So they experience everything.

    Aristarkos

  13. #58

    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    Mat 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
    Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
    Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
    Mat 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
    Mat 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
    Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
    Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
    Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
    Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
    Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
    Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
    Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
    Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
    Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
    Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
    Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    how is it just that the ones who labored for the leat amount of time receive the same as the ones who suffered the brunt of the day? surly we see it just for a man to recieve according to his effort. he who works the most gets the most. or is the reward in the case of the Kingdom of Heaven is that the same is for all? The Lord God did tell Abraham He was Abraham's great reward, but it would seem the parable of the talents shows otherwise when it comes to amounts. Jesus says this result in the parable of the laborers is right and just or "good" so therefore it is.

    Is it simply the agreement? The fulfillment of the agreement according to the agreement is right and just. and one is only entitle the fulfillment of the agreement at hand. therefore the Lord describes it evil to expect otherwise.

    I think I hear " it's not our money to begin with, we should be grateful for eternal life, and grateful that it is extended to those who will accept him. All of us should thank the lord for his patience, it means salvation for more people." It reminds me of the elder brother who is upset because his father has a feast when the younger son who did it all wrong, comes home.......they too had the same even though the elder brother didn't make the same mistakes.....he always had everything the father had at his disposal, now the prodigal also was in the same position.


    we need to,learn to love those who we perceive " haven't earned it" cuz neither have we. Even the Angels in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents, a new brother or sister as young as they may be, are a blessing to the family.



    eternal life is the pay. It's a gift, given of his goodness,

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    From the above, we know immediately that the scenario is being played out in heaven, which means that all the labourers are in the KoG since the vineyard they worked in represents heaven.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    That's what I meant, it is not a glaring error at all. The Kingdom of Heaven is not in Heaven, but out of the heavens. It's founder (Christ) was come out of heaven to erect it. John 18:36 says ... My kingdom is not out of (Greek: ek) this world ... . All earthly kingdoms are erected by men, are out of this world, the Kingdom of Heaven isn't as it's founder came out of heaven to erect it.

    The rest of your reply is therefore irrelevant.

    Aristarkos
    Definately not in heaven, but I can't hang with this out of heaven bit either. Jesus said "but NOW my kingdom is not of this world" not that it is not of this world, only because it was not coming at that time because he was rejected. The koh is most definitely of this world, it's an earthly reign. That's the point. Every passage about the koh is about what takes place here on earth. All of them, no exception. He and his servants will come and fight and he will rule with a rod of iron like many before him. Also, the koh is also what is taking place on earth now, not just in the future. Let the wheat and the tare grow up together in the koh until I come and separate them? Does that sound like heaven, out of heaven, and not now? Tares, children of the wicked one, in heaven or out of heaven? Nope. We cannot understand the mysteries and will have flaws in our understanding and theology, until we grasp that the koh and koG are different aspects of the kingdom and that they are both here now and forever and always have been.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The parable is not about how to get to heaven as some have falsely claimed.
    I don't know who claimed that but no parable could be about that because that is not the goal and where we go. Earth is where God decided to rule and reign with man in his kingdom. No where else, that we know of.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Definately not in heaven, but I can't hang with this out of heaven bit either. Jesus said "but NOW my kingdom is not of this world" not that it is not of this world, only because it was not coming at that time because he was rejected. The koh is most definitely is of this world, it's an earthly reign. That's the point. Every passage about the koh is about what takes place here on earth. All of them, no exception. He and his servants will come and fight and he will rule with a rod of iron like many before him. Also, the koh is also what is taking place on earth now, not just in the future. Let the wheat and the tare grow up together in the koh until I come and separate them? Does that sound like heaven, out of heaven, and not now? Tares, children of the wicked one, in heaven or out of heaven? Nope. We cannot understand the mysteries and will have flaws in our understanding and theology, until we grasp that the koh and koG are different aspects of the kingdom and that they are both here now and forever and always have been.

    [...]
    The now says that is now not from there (hence) or out of this world, so it will be postponed as it did. An earthly kingdom needs basically three things. 1. a King, 2. Subjects, 3. a location or land. What do we see in Israels history? The King ascended to heaven, the subjects scattered over the planet and the land was taken from them. After 1900 years the Jews came back into the land, but the Lo-Ammi period didn't stop in 1948. Why? Because the service of God requires a temple, when that gets build, the second coming of its King and the Kingdom of Heaven are close.

    Of the Kingdom of Heaven (not called that way) the O.T. says: Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face , Psa. 89:14, do we see any of that? Not in this aion of which Satan is the god, 2 Cor. 4:4.

    Aristarkos

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