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Thread: works the most gets the most

  1. #61
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    The now says that is now not from there (hence) or out of this world, so it will be postponed as it did. An earthly kingdom needs basically three things. 1. a King, 2. Subjects, 3. a location or land. What do we see in Israels history? The King ascended to heaven, the subjects scattered over the planet and the land was taken from them. After 1900 years the Jews came back into the land, but the Lo-Ammi period didn't stop in 1948. Why? Because the service of God requires a temple, when that gets build, the second coming of its King and the Kingdom of Heaven are close.

    Of the Kingdom of Heaven (not called that way) the O.T. says: Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face , Psa. 89:14, do we see any of that? Not in this aion of which Satan is the god, 2 Cor. 4:4.

    Aristarkos
    the koh is also what is taking place on earth now, not just in the future. Let the wheat and the tare grow up together in the koh until I come and separate them? Does that sound like heaven, out of heaven, and not now? Tares, children of the wicked one, in heaven or out of heaven?

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    the koh is also what is taking place on earth now, not just in the future. Let the wheat and the tare grow up together in the koh until I come and separate them? Does that sound like heaven, out of heaven, and not now? Tares, children of the wicked one, in heaven or out of heaven?
    I understand you do not see the dispensation of the Grace nor the dispensation of the mystery. I do that's why we differ. God bless.

    Aristarkos

  3. #63
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I understand you do not see the dispensation of the Grace nor the dispensation of the mystery. I do that's why we differ. God bless.

    Aristarkos
    Why won't you address the passage? It's a clear cut, undeniable, parable about the koh that says we are in it. What does it have to do with the disp of grace/mystery anyway? I not only see it but I have explained its inception in this thread. How say you I don't see it? I am a dispensationalist, though I don't think there's a label/type for me. We are in both aspects of The Kingdom (koh/koG) in part. Neither are here in fullness and won't be until the king returns to rule it.

    That we are in the koh is also made clear in the parable of the talents in Mat 25 (koh). Its seeming "parallel" parable is Luke 19 (koG). In Matt he goes into a far country in the koh and returns. In Luke he goes away (ascends) to receive a kingdom and tells them to occupy until he returns. Note, he does not tell the servants to occupy the koh, only the koG - Church. The koh is currently occupied by the god of this world and will be until Jesus returns. In both, he returns at the end of this age to start the next and executes judgment. Note, the wicked servant in the koh parables is cast into outer darkness but the wicked servant in the koG parable is not.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Why won't you address the passage? It's a clear cut, undeniable, parable about the koh that says we are in it.
    No, it doesn't, remember what is said about the Kingom of Heaven, it was at hand, so not there. Israel's repentance is what was necessary and as a nation, its whole. There is not a single verse that says the Kingdom of Heaven is founded.

    What does it have to do with the disp of grace/mystery anyway? I not only see it but I have explained its inception in this thread. How say you I don't see it? I am a dispensationalist, though I don't think there's a label/type for me. We are in both aspects of The Kingdom (koh/koG) in part. Neither are here in fullness and won't be until the king returns to rule it.
    A lot, Israel's rejection and the events in 70 AD postponed the Kingdom of Heaven and those two dispensations started.

    That we are in the koh is also made clear in the parable of the talents in Mat 25 (koh). Its seeming "parallel" parable is Luke 19 (koG). In Matt he goes into a far country in the koh and returns. In Luke he goes away (ascends) to receive a kingdom and tells them to occupy until he returns. Note, he does not tell the servants to occupy the koh, only the koG - Church. The koh is currently occupied by the god of this world and will be until Jesus returns. In both, he returns at the end of this age to start the next and executes judgment. Note, the wicked servant in the koh parables is cast into outer darkness but the wicked servant in the koG parable is not.
    That is what you wish to believe but it never says so, it can't because is was never founded, it's King is rejected twice, first in the Gospels, then in Acts. Now we have to wait for the second coming of the Lord (Israel's King) for it to be founded. The god of this world does not occupie this Kingdom because it isn't there, It is Christ's not Satan's.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    No, it doesn't,
    It doesn't?
    Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    remember what is said about the Kingom of Heaven, it was at hand,
    In it's fullness, yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    so not there.
    How could it not be? You need to read and understand Mat 13. The word of the kingdom is only for its kingdom. How do you suggest it's being sown in another kingdom? Everything in the chapter is about what was and is happening. Here's what was happening in the koh at that time and what continued until this day and until Jesus returns...

    Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    ..........
    18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

    Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    The next parable of the mustard seed is the growth of the koh with devils living in its branches.
    The next parable of leaven is the progressive corruption of the koh.

    All this has been and is happening now. It is not describing the earthly reign of the Messiah, and their seeming "parallel" passages concerning the koG mean exactly the same, except there are no tares in the koG. Jesus is describing what was and is taking place. Notice you have not suggested what all this means if it does not mean the koh has been and is here now in part. Why is that, exactly?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Israel's repentance is what was necessary and as a nation, its whole. There is not a single verse that says the Kingdom of Heaven is founded.
    Clearly there's many.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    A lot, Israel's rejection and the events in 70 AD postponed the Kingdom of Heaven
    in its fullness, yes, I've said that a few times now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    and those two dispensations started.
    two? Grace/mystery? That's one and the same, not two.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    The god of this world does not occupie this Kingdom because it isn't there, It is Christ's not Satan's.
    What is he god of? This world, which is the koh. How is he able to blind and steal the word sown if he doesn't occupy? How is he building world armies to fight Messiah if he does not occupy? Just a few of many major holes in your theology.

  6. #66
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    That's what I meant, it is not a glaring error at all. The Kingdom of Heaven is not in Heaven, but out of the heavens. It's founder (Christ) was come out of heaven to erect it. John 18:36 says ... My kingdom is not out of (Greek: ek) this world ... . All earthly kingdoms are erected by men, are out of this world, the Kingdom of Heaven isn't as it's founder came out of heaven to erect it.

    The rest of your reply is therefore irrelevant.

    Aristarkos
    To quote you, irrelevance is how I'll describe your remark as well because the discussion is NOT about whether the kingdom of heaven is up in the sky or on earth. Every believer I know of knows that Jesus will establish his kingdom on earth when he returns and the Godhead too will be on earth at some point (Rev 21:3). I am used to discussing scripture with brothers who are capable of putting their case forward for critique, not one that resorts to indecorous comment when their theory is challenged.

    If all you have in rebuttal to my exegesis is a reminder that the KoG will be on earth; well then, you've told me all I need to know.

    Remain blessed always

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think that that is our difference. The greatest Mind of the universe, in a most calculating way, laid down every word precisely. Nothing is simple. It takes the Holy Spirit to lead us to truth. If the Almighty used the sum of those words for the Parable of the Vineyard in Matthew 20, I examine every word and insert it in my exegesis. My list that you quoted in posting #43 has at least 15 aspects. And probably I missed some. You can see what "simple" exegesis does. It makes men add and subtract from the Parable - a sure way to miss the Lord's meaning. Since we are all striving for entry into the Kingdom, I think that the lessons of Matthew 20 are vital for us. Misunderstand the map and you're bound not to reach your destination.

    Anyway, lets give it a rest. I'm sure we'll meet again over some other matter. This type of critical discussion can only be good. We'll all learn something. Go well and God bless.
    Indeed, the "lesson" of every parable is vital for us that's why Jesus said it in the first place. There is nonetheless an ever present risk of inadvertently using the parables to cause harm and damage by way of a bad interpretation. And you are of course correct that only the Holy Spirit inspired discernment will reveal the truth. I always enjoy your debate...

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I don't know who claimed that but no parable could be about that because that is not the goal and where we go. Earth is where God decided to rule and reign with man in his kingdom. No where else, that we know of.
    You seem to have unfortunately taken the bait thrown by Aristarkos by turning the discussion into the location of the kingdom of heaven. I consider that a complete digression from what is being discussed. I'm not gonna be drawn into discussing whether the KoG is up or down. But I will respond to any serious exegesis focused on the meaning of the parable.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    It doesn't?
    Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.


    In it's fullness, yes.


    How could it not be? You need to read and understand Mat 13. The word of the kingdom is only for its kingdom. How do you suggest it's being sown in another kingdom? Everything in the chapter is about what was and is happening. Here's what was happening in the koh at that time and what continued until this day and until Jesus returns...

    Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    ..........
    18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

    Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    The next parable of the mustard seed is the growth of the koh with devils living in its branches.
    The next parable of leaven is the progressive corruption of the koh.

    All this has been and is happening now. It is not describing the earthly reign of the Messiah, and their seeming "parallel" passages concerning the koG mean exactly the same, except there are no tares in the koG. Jesus is describing what was and is taking place. Notice you have not suggested what all this means if it does not mean the koh has been and is here now in part. Why is that, exactly?


    Clearly there's many.


    in its fullness, yes, I've said that a few times now.


    two? Grace/mystery? That's one and the same, not two.


    What is he god of? This world, which is the koh. How is he able to blind and steal the word sown if he doesn't occupy? How is he building world armies to fight Messiah if he does not occupy? Just a few of many major holes in your theology.
    Now you understand why I said this:

    I understand you do not see the dispensation of the Grace nor the dispensation of the mystery. I do that's why we differ. God bless.
    We are so way of, what's the point in going on with this discussion?

    Aristarkos

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    To quote you, irrelevance is how I'll describe your remark as well because the discussion is NOT about whether the kingdom of heaven is up in the sky or on earth. Every believer I know of knows that Jesus will establish his kingdom on earth when he returns and the Godhead too will be on earth at some point (Rev 21:3). I am used to discussing scripture with brothers who are capable of putting their case forward for critique, not one that resorts to indecorous comment when their theory is challenged.

    If all you have in rebuttal to my exegesis is a reminder that the KoG will be on earth; well then, you've told me all I need to know.

    Remain blessed always
    And for you the same

    Aristarkos

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You seem to have unfortunately taken the bait thrown by Aristarkos by turning the discussion into the location of the kingdom of heaven. I consider that a complete digression from what is being discussed. I'm not gonna be drawn into discussing whether the KoG is up or down. But I will respond to any serious exegesis focused on the meaning of the parable.
    No, we are discussing when, which is part of understanding the parable - when the son of man sits on the throne of his glory. Where is a given, a foregone conclusion. Earth.

  12. #72
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Now you understand why I said this:



    We are so way of, what's the point in going on with this discussion?

    Aristarkos
    Sounds like you're looking for a way out and don't want to give an answer for the passages I gave that undoubtedly show the koh is here - earth. Dispensationalism doesn't change that one bit. All I have shown IS dispenationalism. The dispensations are played out in the koh. Without the koh there would be no dispensations. Without the koh being here in part and awaiting its fullness we wouldn't be in a dispensation. Without the koG being here in part and awaiting its fullness we wouldn't be in a dispensation. But if you don't want to explain what you think the koh parables showing the koh is, in part, here now and always has been. Fine. Duly noted by all. Now go rip those passages out of your bible because that is what you have to do to believe what you do.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    No, we are discussing when, which is part of understanding the parable - when the son of man sits on the throne of his glory. Where is a given, a foregone conclusion. Earth.
    That's exactly my point, Noeb. There's nothing in the parable in Matt 20 that is about when "when" the parable will play out or the Son sitting on his Throne.

    Thereforefore, this line of discussion is no longer about the interpretation of the parable.

  14. #74
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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That's exactly my point, Noeb. There's nothing in the parable in Matt 20 that is about when "when" the parable will play out or the Son sitting on his Throne.

    Thereforefore, this line of discussion is no longer about the interpretation of the parable.
    Boy you missed that one. When is the end of the day when the workers get paid? Context tells us when. At the end of this age when the son of man sits on his throne of glory. It is in the parable.

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    Re: works the most gets the most

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Boy you missed that one. When is the end of the day when the workers get paid? Context tells us when. At the end of this age when the son of man sits on his throne of glory. It is in the parable.
    I'm really tired of hearing "context" says this, context says that. Poor Mr. Context is now used to justify every poor interpretation of scripture. Reading the parable in Matt 20, I don't get how it's about when Jesus sits on his Throne of glory? For example, immortality/eternal life is granted immediately the resurrection/rapture occurs and at that point, the Lord is still NOT on his Throne of glory on earth.

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