Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 66

Thread: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

  1. #31

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    My opinion is that these were the first believers (the number could be symbolic or literal). It's depicting the start of the church's persecution and the spread of the gospel, notably after the destruction of Jerusalem.
    Matthew 27:52,53

    John gives us a picture of the (just) risen Christ, “a Lamb as were it slain”, "standing on the Mountain" and "WITH him", the 144K.
    John’s description of the 144K perfectly agrees with EVERY characteristic of SINLESS persons --- they are called and in actual fact WERE, the "FIRSTBORN" of the resurrection from among men. They were therefore GLORIFIED in their “BODIES” from their graves, and as IMMORTALS “appeared to many”.

    After they “appeared” as WITNESSES of and to the RISEN Jesus “in the city”, the hundred and forty four thousand were “taken captives” with Jesus "in a cloud" and “ascended into heaven".

    I cannot find a single trait concerning the 144K not fully elucidated in the resurrected saints mentioned by Matthew and referred to by Paul. They were the FIRST messengers of the Gospel of Christ, and that is why they sang the Song of Moses and of the Lamb as were it a “New” song about the (original) redemption from Egypt.
    That is also why John while he has not in the relevant context used the word 'angel' before, summarily continues to speak of "ANOTHER angel / messenger". Speaking of “another” “angel” or “messenger”, means the 144000 of whom John has just written, were a “messenger” – collectively as The Body of Christ’s Own Delight, in fact, messengers that proclaimed the Good News of Jesus Christ’s Resurrection from the dead on strength of which they were resurrected themselves.

    The Message which this Body of Christ’s “Redeemed from the earth” sounded, was most sublime “Song as were it NEW”, and they were the “Messenger” of “The Everlasting Gospel”, described by John by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    The Message in Song was FIRST “SUNG”, “in the city” of Jerusalem, on the very “delight” and “Holy Day of the LORD” as “all flesh” represented by “an hundred and forty and four thousand from all the tribes of Israel”, “came forth” from their graves’ ark like the redeemed from Noah’s ark, to “bring an offering in a CLEAN vessel into the House (the Church) of the LORD” “the Living God”, Jesus Christ. 1Timothy 3:15.

    So I have NO doubt the 144K are not as almost always nowadays claimed, the ‘LAST generation’, but they were the “firstfruits” of FIRST-generation Christianity who were resurrected from _the DEAD_ when Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead. Revelation 14:1-5 and Matthew 27:51,52.

    After only “forty days” of the “messenger” from the DEAD, the next “messenger” was the first to be actually called an “angel” / “messenger”, BECAUSE it was the first from _the LIVING_, the 'sent' - the Apostles, from “the day of pentecost fully come”, until the end of the first century AD. Revelation 14:6,7.

    For thirteen long centuries the Church gradually lost its first love and vigour and purity, before “there followed another” and third, “angel” / “messenger”, to announce the bad state into which the Church deteriorated, the “messenger-angel” of the Reformation. Revelation 14:8.
    This - "another angel" - and last “messenger” was “the third angel” of the Protestant Reformation who “with a loud voice”, announced that the Roman Catholic Church, had fallen to become "Babylon", THIS SAME "messenger" will proclaim and eventually announce Christ’s Second Coming.

    In the meantime the Church shall live by this rule: “Here is the patience of the saints; here is the perseverance of them who live by the law of God, even the Faith of Jesus.” Revelation 14:9-12.
    Therefore the 144K must have witnessed after Jesus' Resurrection for the 40 days until He ascended to his Father.

    What is there that does not make perfect sense? For what else could this perception be exchanged that might do better? I have found GREAT CONSOLATION through this, to me, great discovery! Thank God and praise Him for it! Thank God and praise Him for the BONE-day of Christ’s Passover-SUFFERING-AND-TRIUMPH!

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Yuma, AZ where chocolate melts in the fridge
    Posts
    16

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    To understand the bible, the first thing you must get straight is to whom it is addressed. Just like a letter to your uncle, you can read it and learn from it, but when it commands something you are not bound by that command because it was not addressed to you. Portions of the bible are addressed to Jews, gentiles, or the church of God. The entire law of Moses was addressed to the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, the people we now call Jews. The other tribes of the Israelites were not bound by the law, neither were gentiles, and neither are Christians.

    Revelation 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
    4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    The named churches are all Jewish synagogues. Each synagogue had a mail clerk called "the messenger." That is why it says to write to the "angel" of each church; "angel" means "messenger". This book is addressed to Jews. All the figures of speech are Jewish; that is why goyim can't understand them.

    We Christians will all be in heaven attending the wedding supper of the lamb while those things are playing out down on Earth. So anybody who gets saved in this period is a Jew.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,950
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector View Post
    To understand the bible, the first thing you must get straight is to whom it is addressed. Just like a letter to your uncle, you can read it and learn from it, but when it commands something you are not bound by that command because it was not addressed to you. Portions of the bible are addressed to Jews, gentiles, or the church of God. The entire law of Moses was addressed to the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, the people we now call Jews. The other tribes of the Israelites were not bound by the law, neither were gentiles, and neither are Christians.

    Revelation 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
    4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    The named churches are all Jewish synagogues. Each synagogue had a mail clerk called "the messenger." That is why it says to write to the "angel" of each church; "angel" means "messenger". This book is addressed to Jews. All the figures of speech are Jewish; that is why goyim can't understand them.

    We Christians will all be in heaven attending the wedding supper of the lamb while those things are playing out down on Earth. So anybody who gets saved in this period is a Jew.
    Incorrect claim. Most of these churches were Gentile churches.
    Some of the towns also had Jewish synagogues in them.
    A synagogue did NOT have a mail clerk.
    Angel is a Greek word which does mean messenger, so you have that correct.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,641

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector View Post
    To understand the bible, the first thing you must get straight is to whom it is addressed. Just like a letter to your uncle, you can read it and learn from it, but when it commands something you are not bound by that command because it was not addressed to you. Portions of the bible are addressed to Jews, gentiles, or the church of God. The entire law of Moses was addressed to the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, the people we now call Jews. The other tribes of the Israelites were not bound by the law, neither were gentiles, and neither are Christians.

    Revelation 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
    4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    The named churches are all Jewish synagogues. Each synagogue had a mail clerk called "the messenger." That is why it says to write to the "angel" of each church; "angel" means "messenger". This book is addressed to Jews. All the figures of speech are Jewish; that is why goyim can't understand them.

    We Christians will all be in heaven attending the wedding supper of the lamb while those things are playing out down on Earth. So anybody who gets saved in this period is a Jew.
    I can't say I buy into that. I think the churches in Asia Minor were Christian churches--not synagogues. The Original Church was all Jewish. But by the time Revelation was written, I'm sure lots of evangelization among the Gentiles had been done. And Gentile converts would not've been welcome in synagogues!

    I don't accept the idea that Christians are in heaven prematurely--I'm Postrib. There's not a word about a premature Rapture of the Church in the Bible!

    The main focus of biblical eschatology is on the coming of the Kingdom of Christ. That happens on the last day of this age. That is where we should be focusing ourselves, in my opinion.

    I do think the "messengers" of the 7 churches could be either human messengers or angelic messengers. I favor the latter position, because there are angels throughout the book of Revelation. At a couple different points I think there are mentioned 7 angels and 7 spirits?

    The 144,000 is a number that represents people sealed in the Early Church. It was the "memory device" God uses to select a Christian remnant from among the Jews from generation to generation. His standard is, they must be actually descended, physically, from Abraham. Of course, today's Jews are a blend of *all* of the 12 tribes of Israel, so that they represent true heirs of *all* the tribes!

    This is meant to show that in the endtimes, when Israel is still in her Jewish Diaspora, she will not go extinct, but will instead be preserved on behalf of the "firstfruit" Christians. This is to say that the nation Israel has a future as a Christian nation, and is being preserved for that reason. The current existence of a Christian remnant among the Jews is a sign that God still plans to restore Israel to become a Christian nation.

  5. #35

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    I think the 144,000 are ethnic Israelites from the 12 tribes who believed in Jesus. A special rapture/resurrection is not needed if they were already dead by that time. Hebrews 12:22 talks about Mount Zion which is in heaven.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    4,817
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I think the 144,000 are ethnic Israelites from the 12 tribes who believed in Jesus. A special rapture/resurrection is not needed if they were already dead by that time. Hebrews 12:22 talks about Mount Zion which is in heaven.
    Actually they are not the 12 tribes Dan is replaced by Manasseh

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,641

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I think the 144,000 are ethnic Israelites from the 12 tribes who believed in Jesus. A special rapture/resurrection is not needed if they were already dead by that time. Hebrews 12:22 talks about Mount Zion which is in heaven.
    In my understanding, the 12 tribes were largely mixed and jumbled by the time of John's Revelation. Following the Babylonian Captivity the Northern tribes were largely "lost," except that many of them likely migrated back to Israel over time. When Judah was restored in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah the 12 tribes were, I think, still in possession of genealogies, but were losing connection with those migrating from the 10 lost tribes. And by the time of Jesus, the "Jews" were an all-inclusive term, even if some still knew their genealogical roots.

    The point is, the prophecy of a future group of segregated Hebrew tribes is impossible, in my opinion. It would be something we could not decipher--not even with DNA kits. It would be meaningless.

    So what did the Revelation mean to say in ch. 7? It was that the Jewish People would comprise all 12 tribes in a continuing remnant of believing Jews until the last days.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,641

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Segregated Hebrew tribes is impossible, in my opinion. It would be something we could not decipher--not even with DNA kits. It would be meaningless.

    So what did the Revelation mean to say in ch. 7? It was that the Jewish People would comprise all 12 tribes in a continuing remnant of believing Jews until the last days.
    I think perhaps the number 12,000 from each tribe indicates a minimal number x 12 to indicate a continuing number of believers among the Jews until Israel's final restoration. It is like the "7000 that have not bowed the knee to Baal" in Elijah's time. It is symbolic, but also possibly literal. It symbolizes a larger group, but must contain this minimal group.

  9. #39

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Actually they are not the 12 tribes Dan is replaced by Manasseh
    Don't know why that is. Rev. 7:4 doesn't say 12 tribes, but "all" the tribes of Israel.

  10. #40

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In my understanding, the 12 tribes were largely mixed and jumbled by the time of John's Revelation. Following the Babylonian Captivity the Northern tribes were largely "lost," except that many of them likely migrated back to Israel over time. When Judah was restored in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah the 12 tribes were, I think, still in possession of genealogies, but were losing connection with those migrating from the 10 lost tribes. And by the time of Jesus, the "Jews" were an all-inclusive term, even if some still knew their genealogical roots.

    The point is, the prophecy of a future group of segregated Hebrew tribes is impossible, in my opinion. It would be something we could not decipher--not even with DNA kits. It would be meaningless.

    So what did the Revelation mean to say in ch. 7? It was that the Jewish People would comprise all 12 tribes in a continuing remnant of believing Jews until the last days.
    “Many Pashtun have family traditions identifying with specific tribes. Those from the tribe of Yusufzai, for example, believe they are descended from Joseph, Lewani from Levi, Rebbani from Reuven, Afridi from Ephraim, Gaghai from Gad, and Benyamin from Benjamin.” (https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/1...n-lost-tribes/)

  11. #41

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think perhaps the number 12,000 from each tribe indicates a minimal number x 12 to indicate a continuing number of believers among the Jews until Israel's final restoration. It is like the "7000 that have not bowed the knee to Baal" in Elijah's time. It is symbolic, but also possibly literal. It symbolizes a larger group, but must contain this minimal group.
    I think there will be more than 144,000 Israelite Christians, but they may not be numbered among these fruitfruits. There are an estimated 350,000 Messianic Jews worldwide today (https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...y-land/265670/).

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,950
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think perhaps the number 12,000 from each tribe indicates a minimal number x 12 to indicate a continuing number of believers among the Jews until Israel's final restoration. It is like the "7000 that have not bowed the knee to Baal" in Elijah's time. It is symbolic, but also possibly literal. It symbolizes a larger group, but must contain this minimal group.
    The 7,000 is not symbolic. It may not be EXACTLY 7,000 for there may have 7,002 or 6,985 or whatever, but it still speaks of a number which we would have no problem calling 7,000.
    The 12,000 from each tribe may be a minimum number or a figure of close to that number, but it isn't metaphorically or symbolic.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,950
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I think the 144,000 are ethnic Israelites from the 12 tribes who believed in Jesus. A special rapture/resurrection is not needed if they were already dead by that time. Hebrews 12:22 talks about Mount Zion which is in heaven.
    Mount Zion is a PHYSICAL place on earth.
    However there is a heavenly Jerusalem which will be coming to the earth as the NJ. The PHYSICAL is sometimes a shadow or copy of what is in heaven.
    There are 13 tribes of Jews, but often Levi is missed off because he has no land and is to minister to the others. Yet in Rev 7 it is Dan who is missed off possibly due to Dan's response to God in the past. Manasseh is often called the half-tribe along with his brother Ephraim, but in Rev 7 Ephraim is known as Joseph and Manasseh stated separately. Genesis 498 & 49 make for interesting reading to understand this.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,641

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    “Many Pashtun have family traditions identifying with specific tribes. Those from the tribe of Yusufzai, for example, believe they are descended from Joseph, Lewani from Levi, Rebbani from Reuven, Afridi from Ephraim, Gaghai from Gad, and Benyamin from Benjamin.” (https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/1...n-lost-tribes/)
    Yes, many people today have genealogical evidence of where they came from centuries ago. I certainly have! But Rev 7 seems to be speaking of distinctly separate groups of tribes--something that hasn't existed since the original inheritance of the 12 tribes. After all, they eventually coalesced into 2 kingdoms, and after the Captivity, a single nation. The 12 tribes were vestigially included in the Jewish People, and were all represented in a single people, no longer having these tribal divisions.

    So I've had to conclude that John, in Rev 7, was saying something different than predicting the reemergence of tribal divisions. Incidentally, we see a similar thing in the strange prophecy of Eze 40-48! Some people believe there will be a literal fulfillment of 12 tribal divisions once again. I do not--I think it's all symbolic to show the importance, to God, of keeping His promises to Abraham, and the importance, to Him, of maintaining a people directly descended from all 12 tribes.

    So the 144,000 are nothing but Jews to me, who have literally descended from all 12 tribes. The tribal distinctions only need to be in the gene-pool--there no longer needs to be tribal distinctions, since the nation is the actual fulfillment of the tribes.

    In my view, there must be a minimum of 144,000 Jewish believers in the present age, to represent the future Christian conversion of Israel, the Jewish Hope. Clearly, there may be more than just these 144,000 Jews who have converted to Christianity! And so, I'm just suggesting that in God's mind there must always be at least 144,000 Jewish converts representing, equally, all 12 tribes in the gene pool.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    128

    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are just who the Scripture says they are, Israelites, not all Jews, but all Israelites.

    The idea that only Jews are the seed of Israel is a myth.

    In reality the Jews of the "house of Judah" represent only one portion of the seed of Israel. This history begins in 1 Kings 11 when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, and gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to reign as king over the ten tribes that dwelt in the northern lands of Israel. The southern "kingdom of Judah" was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and eventually Levi, and some small remnants of the northern tribes that refused to be under the northern king Jeroboam of Ephraim.

    After the split, the southern kingdom was also called the "house of Judah" or just "Judah" or "Jerusalem", and the northern kingdom was called the "house of Israel" or just "Israel" or "Ephraim". This distinction is written in Bible Scripture after the split. The majority of Israelites were of the northern "kingdom of Israel".

    If you don't know this history, then you won't know who all those tribes in Rev.7 are for the end of this world. They all still exist, but not all as Jews today. The ten northern tribes were scattered separately from the Jews, and lost their heritage as Israel. The Jews did not lose their heritage as Israel. Genesis 49 is a prophecy Jacob gave to his 12 sons as to what would befall them in the "last days". So the peoples of all 12 tribes of Israel are still around today. It's only that the ten tribes are lost to the Jews and to the world, but not to God. Our Heavenly Father declared through His OT prophets that He will gather the lost ten tribes in final.

    The timing of Revelation 7 about the 144,000 is prior to the time of great tribulation. The sealing is by The Holy Spirit, so these 144,000 all represent sealed Israelite Christians. The tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not mentioned, and is because their rebelliousness in the last days. But they are added back in final per Ezekiel 47 & 48. The sealing is against the Revelation 9 idea of 'stinging'. Remember that on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe period only those NOT sealed with God's seal are to be stung by the locusts for five months.

    The Revelation 7 event about the "great multitude" mentioned after the 144,000 represent believing Gentiles that are sealed for the end, and overcome the tribulation through Christ.

    So Revelation 7 is really about the sealed of Christ's Church for the end.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. James 1:18 - Firstfruits - who are they?
    By Nick in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Nov 4th 2013, 03:36 PM
  2. What does it mean to be firstfruits?
    By Firstfruits in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 111
    Last Post: Mar 31st 2011, 09:59 AM
  3. 144,000 FirstFruits
    By Beckrl in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: Mar 2nd 2010, 11:15 AM
  4. Christ The Firstfruits!!!!!
    By Firstfruits in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: Jan 20th 2010, 09:05 AM
  5. The Firstfruits
    By ZAB in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: Aug 21st 2009, 10:01 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •