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Thread: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

  1. #16
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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    But we are looking at Rev 14 which is a different chapter.


    No, all Isaiah 66 18 to 21 speaks about is the great multitude NOT the 144K.
    Revelation 14:1-7 directly relates to Rev 7:1-14 Jesus stands on Mt Zion , in Jerusalem and selects the 144k out of the huge group of Christians. Where else can He find so many virgin men? The church I belong to could provide about six faithful young men. How about yours?

    Isaiah 66:18b-19 plainly says the Lord will select some of those people gathered from every tongue, to go out and proclaim His glory. Who else can they be?
    If you want to post that they couldn't be the 144k, then you must prove they are not or else be called a false teacher.

    Walls; your determination the have an ethnic Israel people of God, is impenetrable, despite the weight of evidence against it.
    There is only ONE people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11, +
    You insist the 144k are in heaven only by assumption. God's and His Throne are spiritual concepts, how can you say where they are at any specific time?

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Revelation 14:1-7 directly relates to Rev 7:1-14 Jesus stands on Mt Zion , in Jerusalem and selects the 144k out of the huge group of Christians. Where else can He find so many virgin men? The church I belong to could provide about six faithful young men. How about yours?
    Rev 14 is NOT about Jesus selecting the 144K. It is about AFTER they have been selected.

    Isaiah 66:18b-19 plainly says the Lord will select some of those people gathered from every tongue, to go out and proclaim His glory. Who else can they be?
    If you want to post that they couldn't be the 144k, then you must prove they are not or else be called a false teacher.
    People from OTHER nations are by very nature and requirement NOT of Israeli ethnicity. If they were of Israeli ethnicity then they would NOT be from other nations.
    This is a simple understanding of language.
    The 144K however are specified as being of the tribes of Israel which therefore means they are NOT of other nations.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 14 is NOT about Jesus selecting the 144K. It is about AFTER they have been selected.


    People from OTHER nations are by very nature and requirement NOT of Israeli ethnicity. If they were of Israeli ethnicity then they would NOT be from other nations.
    This is a simple understanding of language.
    The 144K however are specified as being of the tribes of Israel which therefore means they are NOT of other nations.
    Jesus is standing on Mt Zion, overlooking the 144k - Revelation 14:1.
    Someone has to select them and it has to be someone who can see into the heart of a person. Any suggestion as to who else could do it?

    You get a total fail on the question of 'who is Israel'. The entire Hew Testament makes it clear the Jesus came to extend Salvation to all who will accept Him. The list of peoples in Isaiah 66:18b-21 and Revelation 5:9-10, INCLUDES the Messianic Jews. Note how the Lord takes His priests and Levites out of that group.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev 14

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    A few things to consider....

    1. These 144,000 werer REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.
    2. They follow the Lamb and are seen with the Lamb on Sion which then would be IN HEAVEN.
    3. They are the ones singing FROM HEAVEN.
    4. This firstfruit harvest in BEFORE Christ returns as 7 vials still need to be poured out upon the earth.

    Conclusion

    The 144,000 are resurrected BEFORE the first resurrection after Christ returns. They are the firstfruits.

    Other thoughts

    1. They follow the Lamb, thus the follow him out from heaven to avenge their blood as his army. The 144,000 are God's army not the church saints (army returns before first resurrection).
    2. The 144,000 are the martys seen in Rev 20:4 already given judgement. Period, they will not fornicate and accept mark and will be virgins.
    3. And the 144,000 alone are the Bride of Christ. Many others are called to the wedding (church).
    The 144,000 are clearly of the tribes of Israel and are distinctly separated and different than the Body of Christ alive at His coming. Those of the Body are neither Jew or Gentile, yet the 144,000 are ONLY of Israel.

    In Rev 14, you correctly identified that the 144,000 are redeemed FROM the earth and stand with the Lamb of God in the heavenly city of Sion. (Yes heaven. HEB 12:22). This event happens after the 7th Trumpet blast of Rev 11:15-18, and before the 7 bowls of wrath indicated as a Wine press in Rev 14:19-20.

    They are THE FIRSTFRUIT OF THE NATION ISRAEL into heaven. They are Not the FIRSTFRUIT of All into heaven.

    Notice something: the 144,000 DO NOT WEAR WHITE in Rev 14:1-5. Also, note the similarity of these individuals to those in Rev 15. They ARE ALSO OF ISRAEL. Notice both groups have harps, sing, and ARE NOT wearing white (yet). But, now look back at the saints of the body of Christ in Rev 7:9-17. They are completely different. They hold palm branches, not harps. They don't sing, they cry out. They wear WHITE. Because they are ALREADY GLORIFIED.

    One thing you all need to stop doing is moving rev 7:9-17 to the back of the bible. That event happens between the 6th and 7th seal. Anyone who moves it makes Jesus a liar. Just saying the truth guys.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    My opinion is that these were the first believers (the number could be symbolic or literal). It's depicting the start of the church's persecution and the spread of the gospel, notably after the destruction of Jerusalem.
    I find this position most interesting! It may be that the 1st thing God determined to do in the NT era was to establish a Jewish remnant of believers, symbolically represented as 12K out of each tribe. Some tribal names were not, however, honored by mention, though their inclusion is certain.

    Tribal distinctions were, I think, much less clear in the Apostle John's time than in centuries prior. Most of the tribes had blended into the territory of Judah, where the temple was. So this seems to be a reiteration of God's original promise that all of the tribes would somehow be preserved through their descendants, whether they are clearly distinguished as tribes or not. The important thing is that all of the tribes were somehow present in their descendants, which now is being assured through John to be eternally saved by Christ.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I find this position most interesting! It may be that the 1st thing God determined to do in the NT era was to establish a Jewish remnant of believers, symbolically represented as 12K out of each tribe. Some tribal names were not, however, honored by mention, though their inclusion is certain.

    Tribal distinctions were, I think, much less clear in the Apostle John's time than in centuries prior. Most of the tribes had blended into the territory of Judah, where the temple was. So this seems to be a reiteration of God's original promise that all of the tribes would somehow be preserved through their descendants, whether they are clearly distinguished as tribes or not. The important thing is that all of the tribes were somehow present in their descendants, which now is being assured through John to be eternally saved by Christ.
    This idea is impossible, as over the 100 + generations since Jacob, everyone on earth has some of his genes.
    This shows how small our planet really is - and, indeed, always has been - a powerful reminder of how little real difference there is between us all. As Joseph T. Chang, Douglas L.T. Rhode, and Steve Olson observe in their 2004 paper on the Most Recent Common Ancestor, we're all shockingly interrelated, and getting more so all the time:
    "No matter the languages we speak or the color of our skin, we share ancestors who planted rice on the banks of the Yangtze, who first domesticated horses on the steppes of the Ukraine, who hunted giant sloths in the forests of North and South America, and who labored to build the Great Pyramid of Khufu.
    And within another two thousand years, it is likely that everyone on earth will be descended from most of us."

    The ONLY distinction between who is a person of God and who is ungodly, is the faith of the believer. Your idea of a Jewish {Israelite] redemption is a contradiction to New Testament teachings.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This idea is impossible, as over the 100 + generations since Jacob, everyone on earth has some of his genes.
    This shows how small our planet really is - and, indeed, always has been - a powerful reminder of how little real difference there is between us all. As Joseph T. Chang, Douglas L.T. Rhode, and Steve Olson observe in their 2004 paper on the Most Recent Common Ancestor, we're all shockingly interrelated, and getting more so all the time:
    "No matter the languages we speak or the color of our skin, we share ancestors who planted rice on the banks of the Yangtze, who first domesticated horses on the steppes of the Ukraine, who hunted giant sloths in the forests of North and South America, and who labored to build the Great Pyramid of Khufu.
    And within another two thousand years, it is likely that everyone on earth will be descended from most of us."

    The ONLY distinction between who is a person of God and who is ungodly, is the faith of the believer. Your idea of a Jewish [Israelite] redemption is a contradiction to New Testament teachings.
    Have you forgotten that all human live originates from Adam and Eve? So we are all related, the distinction made in ethnicity is made by God and He chose, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the twelve patriarchs > Israel. In Hebrews Paul says: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the Holy Places, having found eternal redemption for us (Hebrews) , Heb. 9:12. Please note this letter is called Hebrews, not Gentiles. Abraham was the first being called a Hebrew in Gen. 14:13, that the Jews are meant by Hebrews is clear from Exo. 2:11 ... and he (Moses) spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren . This is taught both by O.T. and N.T., so Randyk's idea of a Jewish [Israelite] redemption , is not a contradiction to New Testament teachings at all.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A Bible student is like a detective. He must approach scripture with a blank mind. He must say, "no detail must be overlooked lest we convict the wrong man". And if the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 7 are from Israel, which did not believe, are sealed, are sealed to protect them from the hurts that the earth will presently experience, then they are a different company to those 144,000 in Chapter 14 who "follow the Lamb", are without guile, are not guilty like Israel, are virgins, who are NOT sealed but have their Father's name on their foreheads, who are "redeemed FROM the earth", and who stand before the throne in the presence of Elders and Creatures who are heavenly in Chapter 4.

    To make them the same company is to ignore the evidence.
    WHY ? Under the blood of Jesus God sees us all as pure virgins, we are without guilt etc. etc. If they are in Petra and have fled Judea that means they are the 1/3 who Zechariah 13 speaks about who came through the fire, thus if they fled Judea when they saw the AoD they only knew to do so because they read Matthew 24:15-17, thus they are converts and have accepted their Messiah like Zechariah 12:10 says they will. So in that case, why can't they be the same 144,000 brother ?

    Them being on Mt. Zion with Jesus signifies that the Jews alive when Jesus returns will be the firstfruits, the rest of the Jews of old like Daniel will be raised up at the end to stand in their lots, but of course the WHEAT who remained on earth with the TARES until the end will be the First-fruit of the new Kingdom as per Gods bride , and the Jews are God's bride, thus they have the Father's name in their forehead.

    They are on their way to Armageddon with Jesus and the Bride of Christ (Church) which just arrived from Heaven. That is why Rev. 14:14 mentions the Rapture also. Then the Harvest of the Wicked is mentioned in Rev. 14:18-20.

    The chapter 4 mention is the Church/Bride that was Raptured, as is the chapter 5 and 7 mentions of the multitude.
    Last edited by Revelation Man; Nov 24th 2018 at 06:00 PM.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Have you forgotten that all human live originates from Adam and Eve? So we are all related, the distinction made in ethnicity is made by God and He chose, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the twelve patriarchs —> Israel. In Hebrews Paul says: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the Holy Places, having found eternal redemption for us (Hebrews) , Heb. 9:12. Please note this letter is called Hebrews, not Gentiles. Abraham was the first being called a Hebrew in Gen. 14:13, that the Jews are meant by Hebrews is clear from Exo. 2:11 ... and he (Moses) spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren . This is taught both by O.T. and N.T., so Randyk's idea of a Jewish [Israelite] redemption , is not a contradiction to New Testament teachings at all.

    Aristarkos
    What the idea of a general Jewish redemption is: a contradiction to the over 20 prophesies that plainly tell us the Judah will be judged and only a remnant will survive. Deny the plain Words of Paul? ….But of Israel, only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

    Paul is teaching Christians in Hebrews. Be they those who call themselves Jews or of whatever tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus is standing on Mt Zion, overlooking the 144k - Revelation 14:1.
    Someone has to select them and it has to be someone who can see into the heart of a person. Any suggestion as to who else could do it?

    You get a total fail on the question of 'who is Israel'. The entire Hew Testament makes it clear the Jesus came to extend Salvation to all who will accept Him. The list of peoples in Isaiah 66:18b-21 and Revelation 5:9-10, INCLUDES the Messianic Jews. Note how the Lord takes His priests and Levites out of that group.
    Well if you refuse to address what is stated....
    The 144K are ALL Jews. Those mentioned in Isaiah 66 are NOT Jews. It is so simple a child would understand.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What the idea of a general Jewish redemption is: a contradiction to the over 20 prophesies that plainly tell us the Judah will be judged and only a remnant will survive. Deny the plain Words of Paul? ….But of Israel, only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

    Paul is teaching Christians in Hebrews. Be they those who call themselves Jews or of whatever tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
    As usual pulling words out of CONTEXT to create a PRETEXT.
    Paul is NOT speaking of the FUTURE end result for Jews in Romans 9:27, but a PAST reality which was also a PRESENT reality for Paul.

    Rom 11:1* I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.*
    Rom 11:2* God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?*
    Rom 11:3* “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”*
    Rom 11:4* But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”*
    Rom 11:5* So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

    So Paul has noted the past in the time of Elijah and the time of Isaiah and now looks at his time. Then he looks at the FUTURE:
    Rom 11:25* Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.*
    Rom 11:26* And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;*
    Rom 11:27* “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”*

    So is a remnant ALL Israel?
    The truth is that it is ALL Israel who once the partial hardening is removed accepts Jesus.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What the idea of a general Jewish redemption is: a contradiction to the over 20 prophesies that plainly tell us the Judah will be judged and only a remnant will survive. Deny the plain Words of Paul? ….But of Israel, only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

    Paul is teaching Christians in Hebrews. Be they those who call themselves Jews or of whatever tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
    And the only way to come to this is by spiritualizing Scripture. It says Hebrews yet you magically read Christians and then blame those who correct you. A remnant of Israel is still Israel, that you fail to see.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This idea is impossible, as over the 100 + generations since Jacob, everyone on earth has some of his genes.
    This shows how small our planet really is - and, indeed, always has been - a powerful reminder of how little real difference there is between us all. As Joseph T. Chang, Douglas L.T. Rhode, and Steve Olson observe in their 2004 paper on the Most Recent Common Ancestor, we're all shockingly interrelated, and getting more so all the time:
    "No matter the languages we speak or the color of our skin, we share ancestors who planted rice on the banks of the Yangtze, who first domesticated horses on the steppes of the Ukraine, who hunted giant sloths in the forests of North and South America, and who labored to build the Great Pyramid of Khufu.
    And within another two thousand years, it is likely that everyone on earth will be descended from most of us."

    The ONLY distinction between who is a person of God and who is ungodly, is the faith of the believer. Your idea of a Jewish {Israelite] redemption is a contradiction to New Testament teachings.
    I think you misinterpret my intentions here. I completely agree with you that we are interrelated, and that tribal distinctions, or racial distinctions, are less valuable than "faith" distinctions.

    My point, however, is that God is faithful to families, in which parents are honored by God for raising their children up *in Him.* God rewards the obedient and the diligent. There are always positive effects for the obedience of a father and mother who raise their children up in the "fear of the Lord."

    God thus blessed Abraham for raising up his children in the Lord. There was no guarantee that all would share Abraham's faith. But there were positive results in his children. And by extension we could apply this to the nation Israel, who was raised up to have the faith of their patriarch Abraham.

    This has nothing to do with racism or discrimination. This has everything to do with God's wish to bless the obedient, and with God's wish to bless every nation among those who choose faith.

    God therefore promised Abraham that some out of each of the 12 tribes would preserve remnants of faith, who would be blessed for their obedience. This was, I believe, fulfilled in the preservation of the tribes all the way up until Israel became a complete nation in their land inheritance. And even after the nation had been judged, as the unbelieving corrupted the whole nation, God still remained faithful to preserve a remnant who believed, and therefore participated in the national restoration.

    And so, Rev 7 and 14 provide an account for how Israel was specifically preserved in the OT and remain preserved in the NT through their descendants. All of the tribes remain in the Jewish People, just as you indicate that the DNA of all 12 tribes are now interspersed among the Jewish People. The fact they remain distinct as a people and nation is important with respect to God's wish to do so. He specifically promised Abraham *nations.*

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This idea is impossible, as over the 100 + generations since Jacob, everyone on earth has some of his genes.
    Actually that is a false claim.
    It may be a statistical possibility that everyone on earth has his genes, but for everyone to have some means that everyone has Jacob somewhere as their great-great...grandfather.
    People living in isolated communities never mixed with those who mixed with those who mixed with those who may have mixed with those who had Jacob's genes.
    In fact it is EXTREMELY unlikely that people have his genes.
    he Jews did not mix with other peoples very much.
    Now you may say when the 10 tribes were sent away from Israel that they then blended with the peoples living in Asia who subsequently spread out into the rest of the world. However it is just as likely that they were killed by others peoples living out there and only a few might have intermarried.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think you misinterpret my intentions here. I completely agree with you that we are interrelated, and that tribal distinctions, or racial distinctions, are less valuable than "faith" distinctions.

    And so, Rev 7 and 14 provide an account for how Israel was specifically preserved in the OT and remain preserved in the NT through their descendants. All of the tribes remain in the Jewish People, just as you indicate that the DNA of all 12 tribes are now interspersed among the Jewish People. The fact they remain distinct as a people and nation is important with respect to God's wish to do so. He specifically promised Abraham *nations.*
    Yes; FAITH is what counts. Galatians 3:26-29, Hebrews 11:1 & 12:1-2

    People here are determined to have the Jewish people as all of Israel. That they are not, is acknowledged by the Jews themselves, who know they are just 2 of the 12 tribes. Some from the other tribes did join in ancient times and still do so today. They became Jews by religion.
    But Israel is as many as the sands of the sea, uncountable numbers in 'many nations', far more that the 18 million +/- of Jewish people in the world.

    That we Christians ARE the Israel of God is plainly stated in Galatians 6:14-16

    FHG, May I suggest that you do the math and just see how many ancestors there are in every persons background, even after only 10 generations.
    The figures soon become astronomical, so after 100 + generations, from the small gene pool of 2000 BC, it is obvious that we are thoroughly mixed up!

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