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Thread: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

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    Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Rev 14

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    A few things to consider....

    1. These 144,000 werer REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.
    2. They follow the Lamb and are seen with the Lamb on Sion which then would be IN HEAVEN.
    3. They are the ones singing FROM HEAVEN.
    4. This firstfruit harvest in BEFORE Christ returns as 7 vials still need to be poured out upon the earth.

    Conclusion

    The 144,000 are resurrected BEFORE the first resurrection after Christ returns. They are the firstfruits.

    Other thoughts

    1. They follow the Lamb, thus the follow him out from heaven to avenge their blood as his army. The 144,000 are God's army not the church saints (army returns before first resurrection).
    2. The 144,000 are the martys seen in Rev 20:4 already given judgement. Period, they will not fornicate and accept mark and will be virgins.
    3. And the 144,000 alone are the Bride of Christ. Many others are called to the wedding (church).

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Isaiah 66:18b-21....people from every language will come.....I shall put a sign on some of them and send them out to all the nations to proclaim My Glory....and some I shall take for My priests and Levites.
    This proves that the 144,000 are selected out of the 'vast multitude' of Rev 7:9 and it is them who spread 'the Eternal Gospel', not an angel as Revelation 14:6-7 metaphorically states.
    Luke 10:1-10 is a preview of this. They went out in pairs; 72+72=144 [some Bibles say 70, but 72 is correct]

    Never at any time do they, or anyone other than the 2 Witnesses, leave the earth. they are not killed, so it isn't them who are resurrected at the Return, Just the martyrs of the last 3 1/2 years. Revelation 20:4

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    No, Rev 14 is speaking of AFTER Jesus returns to Mount Zion.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, Rev 14 is speaking of AFTER Jesus returns to Mount Zion.
    Jesus is revealed to His people, as we are told in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, not to all the world, as yet.
    He is with His people always, Spiritually, Matthew 28:20, and He has revealed Himself physically to many people from Paul until now. I know one personally.

    Jesus will personally select the 144,000 from the vast multitude of His Christian followers. Exactly as John saw in Revelation 7:1-14, gathered in all of the holy Land, soon after the great Day of the Lord's wrath has cleared and cleansed it. As 2 Thess 1:6-9 and Revelation 6:12-17 tell us.
    There is no change of location between verses 6 and 7. You are adding to scripture to say there is.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus is revealed to His people, as we are told in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, not to all the world, as yet.
    He is with His people always, Spiritually, Matthew 28:20, and He has revealed Himself physically to many people from Paul until now. I know one personally.

    Jesus will personally select the 144,000 from the vast multitude of His Christian followers. Exactly as John saw in Revelation 7:1-14, gathered in all of the holy Land, soon after the great Day of the Lord's wrath has cleared and cleansed it. As 2 Thess 1:6-9 and Revelation 6:12-17 tell us.
    There is no change of location between verses 6 and 7. You are adding to scripture to say there is.
    Rev 14:1 states this is on Mount Zion.
    So either it is a picture of AFTER these events have occurred, or you have Jesus in Jerusalem BEFORE He returns.
    Now it could be that this picture is about Zech 14:5 and that He leads the 144K and anyone else as they flee into the wilderness. Thta is a possibility.
    However i have no idea what your comment about verse 6 and 7 is about.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 14:1 states this is on Mount Zion.
    So either it is a picture of AFTER these events have occurred, or you have Jesus in Jerusalem BEFORE He returns.
    Now it could be that this picture is about Zech 14:5 and that He leads the 144K and anyone else as they flee into the wilderness. Thta is a possibility.
    However i have no idea what your comment about verse 6 and 7 is about.
    The faithful Christian people of the Lord will be gathered soon after the Day of darkness and cloud. Ezekiel 34:11-16 That will be the Sixth Seal event.
    2 Thess 1:10 is clear; Jesus is revealed to His saints; to all that believe in Him. Not to all the world, as at the glorious Return, much later.

    My comment on Revelation 7:6-7 is that there is no mention of a change of location then. From Revelation 7:1-3, we know John is viewing an earthly scene. The 144,000 are selected and sealed with God's mark. Then John saw a vast multitude of people from every tribe, race nation and language, standing before the Lamb and the Throne of God, waving palm branches, which denotes an earthly event. [The Throne of God can and has been seen on earth; Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56]
    Saying they are all in heaven simply doesn't fit scripture and is only done to suit the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

    We are told who they all are; people who have passed through the great ordeal [tribulation] of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, by standing firm in their faith and trusting in the Lord to protect them. They are not killed, they are the holy people that are in the Land when the 'beast' conquers them and has world control for 1260 days. Daniel 7:23-25, Revelation 13:7
    THEY; all faithful Christians, are the people who will say: Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev 14

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    A few things to consider...….

    1. These 144,000 werer REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.
    2. They follow the Lamb and are seen with the Lamb on Sion which then would be IN HEAVEN.
    3. They are the ones singing FROM HEAVEN.
    4. This firstfruit harvest in BEFORE Christ returns as 7 vials still need to be poured out upon the earth.

    Conclusion

    The 144,000 are resurrected BEFORE the first resurrection after Christ returns. They are the firstfruits.

    Other thoughts

    1. They follow the Lamb, thus the follow him out from heaven to avenge their blood as his army. The 144,000 are God's army not the church saints (army returns before first resurrection).
    2. The 144,000 are the martys seen in Rev 20:4 already given judgement. Period, they will not fornicate and accept mark and will be virgins.
    3. And the 144,000 alone are the Bride of Christ. Many others are called to the wedding (church).
    Most people try and say the 144,000 are "Jewish Preachers" but the bible says no such thing. In Rev. 7 we see that the Trumpets are ordered to be halted (hurt not the Sea, Tree, Earth) until the 144,000 are Sealed. So I see this number as a Metaphor for the Jews who Flee Judea for Petra, God IMHO, orders the Angles to wait until the Jews reach Petra before they blow the Trumpet horns that bring the Trumpet plagues to pass. So these are people, or they would be in no danger of being hurt right ? So these are human beings alive on earth. I think the 12 x 12 x 12 = ALL Israel of every tribe, it is assumed John didn't use the tribe of Dan because there was a legend that the Anti-Christ would come out of the tribe of Dan.

    I think the 144,000 in Rev. 14 that show up with Jesus on Mt. Zion show us THREE HARVESTS..........They are gathered into the Barn as the Wheat who remain on earth with the Tares until the end. Verse 14 shows us the Rapture Harvest of souls via Jesus thrusting in the sickle from on top a cloud. Then an Angel thrusts in a sickle to Harvest the Wicked at Armageddon, where the blood arises to the mouths of the horses.

    Its the 1/3 of the Jews who repent, it is ALL Israel who flee to Petra. Rev. 18:4 shows God telling them to come out of Babylon lest they partake in her sins and Judgment plagues.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    My opinion is that these were the first believers (the number could be symbolic or literal). It's depicting the start of the church's persecution and the spread of the gospel, notably after the destruction of Jerusalem.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev 14

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    A few things to consider....

    1. These 144,000 werer REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.
    2. They follow the Lamb and are seen with the Lamb on Sion which then would be IN HEAVEN.
    3. They are the ones singing FROM HEAVEN.
    4. This firstfruit harvest in BEFORE Christ returns as 7 vials still need to be poured out upon the earth.

    Conclusion

    The 144,000 are resurrected BEFORE the first resurrection after Christ returns. They are the firstfruits.

    Other thoughts

    1. They follow the Lamb, thus the follow him out from heaven to avenge their blood as his army. The 144,000 are God's army not the church saints (army returns before first resurrection).
    2. The 144,000 are the martys seen in Rev 20:4 already given judgement. Period, they will not fornicate and accept mark and will be virgins.
    3. And the 144,000 alone are the Bride of Christ. Many others are called to the wedding (church).
    The answer is relatively simple.

    When a man dies his three parts are torn apart. His body returns to the elements of the earth (Gen.3:19), his spirit, which is his vitality (Jas.2:26) returns to God Who gave it (Eccl.3:21, 12:7), and his SOUL, which is the man, goes to Hades under the earth. When our Lord Jesus died His body was placed in a Tomb on the surface of the earth, He commended His human spirit to God in heaven, and He went to Hades in te heart of the earth (Matt.12:40; Act.2:31 - "Hades", not "hell" is correct). So for a man to "stand" means he is alive and "whole". 1st Thessalonians 5;23 says that a man who has all three parts is "whole". The 144,000 of Revelation 14 are ALIVE.

    Next, they must be in the sky.
    • They are "redeemed FROM the earth"
    • They are before the Throne which has not yet been set up on earth
    • The four Creatures and 24 Elders are present and from Chapter 4 we see that they are heavenly beings
    • The verses after verse 5 show that the Great Tribulation is still ongoing. Christ does not touch down on earth until it is finished (Matt.24:29-30)

    The objection that Mount Sion is on the earth at Jerusalem cannot be upheld. In Hebrews 12:22, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels", there is a Mount Sion in heaven as well. And in 1st Peter 2:6, "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded", concerns the Church - a "SPIRITUAL HOUSE" and "SPIRITUAL OFFERINGS" to God. Thus, the "Corner Stone" must be "spiritual", and if so, the there is a "SPIRITUAL SION".

    The evidence is that the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 14 are;
    1. Christians
    2. Firstfruits
    3. Alive
    4. Overcomers
    5. Resurrected
    6. Raptured

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The faithful Christian people of the Lord will be gathered soon after the Day of darkness and cloud. Ezekiel 34:11-16 That will be the Sixth Seal event.
    2 Thess 1:10 is clear; Jesus is revealed to His saints; to all that believe in Him. Not to all the world, as at the glorious Return, much later.

    My comment on Revelation 7:6-7 is that there is no mention of a change of location then. From Revelation 7:1-3, we know John is viewing an earthly scene. The 144,000 are selected and sealed with God's mark. Then John saw a vast multitude of people from every tribe, race nation and language, standing before the Lamb and the Throne of God, waving palm branches, which denotes an earthly event. [The Throne of God can and has been seen on earth; Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56]
    Saying they are all in heaven simply doesn't fit scripture and is only done to suit the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
    This is Rev 14 which is a number of scene changes later.

    We are told who they all are; people who have passed through the great ordeal [tribulation] of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, by standing firm in their faith and trusting in the Lord to protect them. They are not killed, they are the holy people that are in the Land when the 'beast' conquers them and has world control for 1260 days. Daniel 7:23-25, Revelation 13:7
    THEY; all faithful Christians, are the people who will say: Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!
    Talking about the 144K not the great multitude.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This is Rev 14 which is a number of scene changes later.


    Talking about the 144K not the great multitude.
    My point was; there is no scene changes in Revelation 7. Thinking that any of that chapter is in heaven, is to add to scripture.

    That the 144k are selected out of the great multitude is proved by Isaiah 66:18b-21. It is also logical and plainly obvious to all who keep away from false theories.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    My point was; there is no scene changes in Revelation 7. Thinking that any of that chapter is in heaven, is to add to scripture.

    That the 144k are selected out of the great multitude is proved by Isaiah 66:18b-21. It is also logical and plainly obvious to all who keep away from false theories.
    A Bible student is like a detective. He must approach scripture with a blank mind. He must say, "no detail must be overlooked lest we convict the wrong man". And if the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 7 are from Israel, which did not believe, are sealed, are sealed to protect them from the hurts that the earth will presently experience, then they are a different company to those 144,000 in Chapter 14 who "follow the Lamb", are without guile, are not guilty like Israel, are virgins, who are NOT sealed but have their Father's name on their foreheads, who are "redeemed FROM the earth", and who stand before the throne in the presence of Elders and Creatures who are heavenly in Chapter 4.

    To make them the same company is to ignore the evidence.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A Bible student is like a detective. He must approach scripture with a blank mind. He must say, "no detail must be overlooked lest we convict the wrong man". And if the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 7 are from Israel, which did not believe, are sealed, are sealed to protect them from the hurts that the earth will presently experience, then they are a different company to those 144,000 in Chapter 14 who "follow the Lamb", are without guile, are not guilty like Israel, are virgins, who are NOT sealed but have their Father's name on their foreheads, who are "redeemed FROM the earth", and who stand before the throne in the presence of Elders and Creatures who are heavenly in Chapter 4.

    To make them the same company is to ignore the evidence.
    You have assumed that the 144,000 are genetic Israelites. That they are not genetic but spiritual Israelites, all people who are the Israel of God by faith, Galatians 3:26-29, + the whole reason Jesus came to save His lost people, scattered among the nations.
    It is in fact nonsense to assign all of Israel to the Jews. They represent only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. So they alone cannot make up the 144,000.

    ransomed from the earth....does not mean taken away from the earth, just out of the peoples of the earth. The Throne and all of the heavenly host can be seen from the earth if God wills it. Ezekiel saw it all, and Stephen.

    You do realize that Jesus said, in 5 scriptures that going to heaven for normal Christians was impossible?

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    My point was; there is no scene changes in Revelation 7. Thinking that any of that chapter is in heaven, is to add to scripture.
    But we are looking at Rev 14 which is a different chapter.

    That the 144k are selected out of the great multitude is proved by Isaiah 66:18b-21. It is also logical and plainly obvious to all who keep away from false theories.
    No, all Isaiah 66 18 to 21 speaks about is the great multitude NOT the 144K.

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    Re: Is there a firstfruits resurrection of the 144,000?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You have assumed that the 144,000 are genetic Israelites. That they are not genetic but spiritual Israelites, all people who are the Israel of God by faith, Galatians 3:26-29, + the whole reason Jesus came to save His lost people, scattered among the nations.
    It is in fact nonsense to assign all of Israel to the Jews. They represent only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. So they alone cannot make up the 144,000.

    I did not assume anything. The Holy Spirit named the Tribes from which the 144,000 in Chapter 7 come from. Dan is missing. Throughout the Bible these Tribes are Israelites. There is no such term or concept in the Bible as "spiritual Israelites". This a a self-made term by you to make things the Holy Spirit has written, mean something else. Be an honest detective and do not add evidence that was not there before. Also, I did not mention "Jews" in the posting you answered. Please refrain from adding things I did not write and then arguing as if I write them.

    Galatians 3:26-29 DOES NOT ADDRESS ISRAEL. Let us see:

    26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Israel are in UNBELIEF. These are "children" BY FAITH. They are Christians
    27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Israel was NOT Baptized INTO Christ. The rejected and murdered Him. This verse addresses BELIEVERS who obeyed the command to be immersed.
    28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." You say, "spiritual Israelite". This verse says NO JEWS! The "YE" refers to those in the previous verses - those Baptized INTO Christ, the Church
    29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." This addresses those who BELONG to Christ - those PURCHASED and Redeemed at great price. This redemption Israel REFUSED. They refused God's Law, they refused the prophets and killed some, they refused the Holy Spirit and attributed His works to Beelzebub, they refused the signs and wonders done by Messiah, and they called for His blood to be upon them and their children in responsibility for His slaughter. To say that Galatians 3:26-29 speaks of Israel is unthinkable. Israel is CIRCUMVENTED by being IN Christ. By being IN Christ a Gentile can be heir to the Covenant pf Promise with Abraham and HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE JEWS/ISRAELITES.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    ransomed from the earth....does not mean taken away from the earth, just out of the peoples of the earth. The Throne and all of the heavenly host can be seen from the earth if God wills it. Ezekiel saw it all, and Stephen.
    No! "just out of peoples" is covered by Revelation 14:4, "... These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." "Redeemed FROM the earth" means that they are presently NOT THERE. The Throne is NOT "SEEN". The 144,000 "STAND BEFORE IT!" You again add things to setup - like a detective who plants false evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You do realize that Jesus said, in 5 scriptures that going to heaven for normal Christians was impossible?
    Do you think that these are NORMAL Christians? Could you match their standard? They have no GUILE. You add evidence to the scene and invent names that the Holy Spirit does not use. You add words as if your opponent had said them, and then argue against them. You add Israel to Galatians 3:26-29 when they are not even mentioned. Israel is NEVER brought into connection with the 144,000 of Chapter 14.

    C'mon bro. Let's deal ONLY with what the Holy Spirit has inspired men to say and write. Anything else is to MISLEAD.

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