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Thread: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

  1. #16

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The 7 trumpets vision is part of the 7 seals vision. The 7 trumpets are blown during the opening of the 7th seal. The 7th trumpet takes us up to the initiation of the Kingdom of God. So, the 1st half of the book of Revelation ends at the 2nd Coming. Then, more visions follow, including the 7 bowls vision, which provides more details about the end times scenario, including especially the reign of Antichrist for 3.5 years. In Rev 19 we see a final picture of Christ's 2nd Coming, although throughout the book of Revelation there are a number of distinct visions portraying the 2nd Coming in different ways.

    Clearly, the book of Revelation is not always chronological in nature. It simply has a single narrative, expressing several times in several ways the one glorious 2nd Coming of Christ. Yes, the 2nd Coming is portrayed at the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11. And yes, the 7 bowls vision follows this account. But no, it does not mean that the 7 bowls necessarily follow the 7th trumpet. I believe they overlap, and both portray the same glorious event in different ways.

    In the OT trumpets were blown at the fall of Jericho. Just like that event the 7th trumpet announces the fall of the kingdoms of this world to the Kingdom of Christ. This is a conquest of God's Kingdom on earth, led by the 2nd Coming of Christ.

    The getting "seized" and "caught up" to the clouds, indicated in 1 Thes 4, is a sort of parallel with Christ's own ascent into heaven. The reason we go to heaven in the 1st place is in order to go to Christ in heaven so that we may participate with him in his descent to earth. It all takes place in a second, in a twinkling of an eye. So there will be no spending any time in heaven at the "Rapture." It will be an instantaneous transformation into glorious bodies, as we meet and descend with the glorious Christ himself.

    I welcome your honesty and objectivity in considering the Postrib position, which I accepted many years ago. Nobody persuaded me to adopt this position. It came as I memorized the book of 2 Thessalonians. It is all right there.
    Thanks, So you don't see the Antichrist reigning in first 3.5 years? Is he not the rider in the seals?

    Also Im curious who people believe are raptured is it all believers at the conclusion of the judgments?

  2. #17

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    The 7th trumpet is not the rapture but does involve a gathering... of the children of Israel. I will try to explain without being very long. The judgments in reversing are broken down into three groups.
    1. The Jews, (wholly still in unbelief)
    2. The "false church" (rejected the gospel)
    3. The wicked (kingdom of the beast).

    Scripturally, this [Revelation] equates to:
    1. Seals and trumpets (ch.6-11)
    2. Kingdom (and mark) of beast &false prophet (ch.12-14).
    3. Vials (rejectors of the KOG).

    This can be further described as God's wrath:
    1. Upon the Jews,
    2. Those that rejected the gospel of grace,
    3. Those that rejected the gospel of the kingdom.

    From Romans 1 & 2, we learn that:
    1.Rom 1:16, the gospel (of grace) was preached the Jews first,
    2. Rom 2:24, Jews blaspheme God by rejection of the gospel,
    3.Rom 1:18, God's wrath is (to be) revealed against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness,
    4. Rom 2:5-10, God's wrath will be revealed against the Jew FIRST, then the Gentiles. With wrath upon the Jews, the result will be tribulation upon the whole world. That tribulation (not God's wrath) will manifest the righteous judgment of God upon faithful Christendom... Those "who [are] seeking for glory honor AND immortality. After patiently enduring [patience/hupomone/G5281] our greatest trials, we will be rewarded with eternal life (afterwards at the revelation) .

    Luke 17:29-30 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 shows the the righteous (the church) will receive their reward at the revelation of Jesus. Because the Jews are wholly in unbelief, and that signs are given to those that believe, no signs will precede the day of the Lord-s judgment that firstly comes upon the Jews. Paul says that the DOTL comes like a thief... without warning. The fluidity of revelation is to maintain the continuity of judgment upon the Jews. Because the rapture takes place before completion pig judgment upon the Jews ends (seals & trumpets), Rev 12 backtracks in time to the sign that is given to the church signifying the imminency of the rapture.

    Romans 11 and Ephesians 1-3 sets the order that the Jews would not be gathered until the fullness of time when the last of the Gentiles is brought in. The major point of 2 Thess 2 is the gathering together of both Jews and Gentiles into the one body of Christ, the church. The 2nd major point of 2 Thess 2 is the revelation of the man of sin. Here Paul declares that his purpose (being revealed) is to intentionally deceive (FROM GOD) all those who rejected the gospel and have pleasure in unrighteousness. Does that ring a bell? Rom 1:18 says that God's wrath is revealed from heaven against those who hold the truth (in this case, Christendom) in unrighteousness. The great tribulation, as per Romans 2, has a twofold purpose.
    1. Wrath against the Jews,
    2. Removing the tares from the wheat, producing a great falling away (departure) from the:
    A. Truth of the gospel, by the "church", and
    B. Unrighteousness from Jacob.

    Once the mark of the beast has run its full coarse against the world of the "righteous" unbelievers, then the "fullness of God's wrath(Rev 15:1)", the vials will be poured out on the remaining, wicked, who love darkness, rather than come to the light.

    Tho not explicitly revealed as to the timing, the 7th trumpet signifies the end of God's wrath upon the children of Israel. Once that ungodliness has been removed from Jacob, then will begin the regathering of the children of Israel:

    *[[Eze 39:25]] KJV* Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; [26] After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

    *[[2Th 2:1]] KJV* Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    The day of Christ, is not a single day, but is the period of (the fullness of) time [2 Thess 2 "is present"] in which the Jews will be gathered into the body of Christ.

    *[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. [12] And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. [13] The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. [14] But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. [15] And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

    *[[Isa 27:12]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. [13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    Thanks, Its no secret im not the sharpest tool in the shed, so its going to take me some time to digest and go over what you provided me here, which is great :-)

  3. #18

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This is a little snip from my rapture study

    Revelation 11:15

    The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
    “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

    The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever not for just a 1000 years
    .
    The 24 elders say in Revelation 11:18 say (at the seventh trumpet)

    The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
    The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
    and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
    and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

    The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants and for destroying those who destroy the earth. The judging of the dead happens in Revelation 20:12 after Satan is defeated and cast into hell and after the 1000 years.

    12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books
    .
    The destruction of the ones who destroyed the earth is in Revelation 20:15

    15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 22:12-13

    12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. This is the end after the 1000 years Jesus doesn’t say here that he is coming to save us from the tribulation.

    Paul states that the rapture is at the last trumpet in 1 Corr 15:51-52

    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    The last trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 as 7 is the complete and finished number of God

    Paul also states that the rapture happens at the sound of a trumpet in 1 Thess 4:16-17

    16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    Thus the 7th trumpet happens at the rapture and the final judgement of our world which happens immediately after the rapture

    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    I don't believe that they do why do you think that the bowls happen after? Revelation isn't all in chronological order

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Yes and no one will be saved after

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?

    We meet Jesus in the air and go back to heaven with Him
    I don't believe that they do why do you think that the bowls happen after? Revelation isn't all in chronological order
    Well funnily enough I only have the 7th bowl as happening concurrently or I see them as one and the same, I mean First the seal has to be opened, then the judgment has to be heralded then the bowl has to be poured out, I have no idea why people insist they happen Chronologically rather than concurrently.

    lets compare the 7th trumpet and vial, for the similarities are there to compare to and at least one can and should at least consider they are a description of the one and same event.

    First the 7th trumpet it says "the mystery of God is finished" in heaven there are voices, thunders, lightning's and an earthquake, oh and hail.

    Vs 18 of ch 11 talks about the wrath has come, and to destroy those who destroy the earth etc

    In the 7th bowl it says "It is done" is heard from the temple and there are voices, thunders, lightning's and an earthquake and great hail fell from heaven to earth upon men.

    ch 16 to give Babylon the cup of wine of His wrath etc, albeit a lot more detail of the judgment of the harlot.

    Anyway I agree the 7th trumpet is sounding the final phase and the end of the tribulation.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I think I understand what your saying, and I take a similar approach, although while agreeing the trumpets herald what is about to take place afterwards I view it as heralding what the vial has in store. Anyway when is the exact timing of the rapture do you see it at the conclusion of the vial judgments and preceding the Lords decent upon the beast and the armies gathered together, Also In the rapture who is raptured is it all the believers?
    No the vials are COMPLETELY separate to the trumpets.
    A simple example:
    Rev 8:8* The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.*
    Rev 8:9* A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.*

    Rev 16:3* The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea.

    Initially they seem the same, as in BOTH the second trumpet and the second vial it is about the sea.
    However the 2nd trumpet speaks ONLY of 1/3 of living things dying, whereas the 2nd vial has ALL the living things dying.
    Therefore these are NOT the same event.

    The trumpets then are less than the vials, even as the seals are less than the trumpets.

    The 1st seal was opened shortly after Revelation was given and the events of the letters to those specific churches.
    This 1st seal speaks of the Church Militant, or Christendom, which we see happened through Constantine.
    The seals cover a long span of time.
    The trumpets however cover much shorter periods of time.
    The vials are all compressed to within 42 months.

    This condensing of time is also seen in the gospel of John, where 3 years are covered in 10 chapters, but then 1 week is covered in 10 chapters.
    So too in Revelation 10 chapters lead up to the final week, then 10 chapters cover that final week, then we have the last chapters covering what happens after.

  5. #20
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Thanks, So you don't see the Antichrist reigning in first 3.5 years? Is he not the rider in the seals?

    Also Im curious who people believe are raptured is it all believers at the conclusion of the judgments?
    A good number of Christians today like to view the 70th Week of Daniel (Dan 9) as being separated from the 70 Weeks, and applied in the endtimes as the Reign of Antichrist. This would seem to make the Reign of Antichrist 7 years. And since only a 3.5 year period is mentioned in the book of Revelation, and in Dan 7, it is thought that there must be two separate periods of 3.5 years, together making a 7 year period.

    This is incongruent on two different levels. One, the 70 Weeks of Daniel are a single period of time, so that the 70th Week cannot be cut off from the 69 prior Weeks and applied in the endtimes. Very few of the Church Fathers did this, but a couple of them did. And so, many today do the same thing because they want to apply more Bible Prophecies to the endtimes so as to be able to prognosticate.

    And two, this doesn't make sense because there is no basis for joining together two periods of 3.5 years in the Book of Revelation. We hear of 1260 days, 42 months, and a time, times and half a time (3.5 years). But they all seem to refer to the same 3.5 year period, which goes back to Dan 7, where Antichrist reigns for 3.5 years.

    Who the riders are in the 1st 4 seals is debatable, since the passage does not specifically identify them. What that tells us is that who they are is less important than what they represent. They represent, for me, the coming of Christ's Kingdom, and the things that must take place to prepare for that day. In that day the Roman World united the Mediterranean region. But this unity must be broken up, even as the image of Nebuchadnezzar saw the final Kingdom of the age broken up into 10 kings, or states. There will be, I think, international warfare, just as Jesus predicted it will happen in his own time. The only difference is, today we have a long history of Christianity within the old Roman civilization. But as it returns to the old Roman paganism, it will become, once again, increasingly war-like and aggressive. The 4 horsemen represent God's judgment upon pagan society, I think?

    Most of the judgments in the book of Revelation are pointed to Armageddon, the final conflict, but not all. And that's because the book of Revelation is looking forward to the conquest of Christ's Kingdom over the kingdoms of this world. When Christ comes he will come with his saints and with his angels. But in order to come with his saints they must be instantly resurrected and transformed into his own glorious image, into his own perfect image, so as to judge together with him. God has consigned the judgment of this earth to Man. But it must now be Glorified Man who can properly judge this earth, and dispose of angels. It is indeed our world, along with Christ, who is Lord over all.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    That's the question. Does scripture say the "last" is the Seventh? The Seventh is ONLY the last of the Trumpets that announce plagues. What about those that call people? What if the trumpet that calls Israel is a different trumpet to that one that calls Christians? How many times are Israel called by a trumpet in the Old Testament? I dare say more than seven times. And if the Church is supposed to be called by the "last" Trump, where was the first trump, or where were the first six if that is the seventh? Let us all, including me, beware of assuming things.
    That assumption is rife in this discourse is unquestionable. I would like to explore the issues you raised and see where it leads.

    1. The trumpet calls used to summon ancient Israel for events is NOT listed in numerical order. Therefore, it is impossible to determine the first and the last.
    2. I have not come across any scripture about a Trumpet Call specially set aside for Christians.
    3. I agree that ancient Israel was called by a Trumpet Call more than 7 times, but the exact number of times is unknown. This fact in my view debunks the assertion that the purported trump call for the Feast of Booths is the 8th.
    4. To establish the 8th trump call as specifically for the Feast of Booths, naturally the preceding calls from 1-7 must also have specifically assigned purposes. But in truth, this is not the case.

    If there is an end or *last*, there must also be a beginning, and this leads to numbering. The reality for anyone interested in an objective study of the phrase "the Last Trump" is that since the trumpet calls in the OT was never listed or used in a numeric order. We cannot in good conscience, ignore the fact that the LAST TRUMP must be part of the listed group found in Revelation. It is only in the Book of Revelation that trump calls are numbered in the whole of the Bible, therefore, the last must be in that *trump call group* irrespective of the purpose of each call, i.e. whether it is for plagues or summoning the Church.

    I have tried my honest best to align my argument with scripture irrespective of whether the outcome agrees or upends my previously held position on the Rapture. This principle should guide anyone seeking the truth, so they don't force their interpretation to agree with their own position rather than the scripture's position on the Rapture. I will accept without question the assertion that the last trump in the NT is not part of the listed 1-7 in Revelation, if there's evidence or precedent of trump calls numbered in the OT. But since such numbering didn't hitherto exist, how then can one determine the first and the last? Since the Bible is inerrant, it makes no sense to seek the LAST TRUMP outside the ONLY NUMERICALLY LISTED trump calls in the whole Bible.

  7. #22
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That assumption is rife in this discourse is unquestionable. I would like to explore the issues you raised and see where it leads.

    1. The trumpet calls used to summon ancient Israel for events is NOT listed in numerical order. Therefore, it is impossible to determine the first and the last.
    2. I have not come across any scripture about a Trumpet Call specially set aside for Christians.
    3. I agree that ancient Israel was called by a Trumpet Call more than 7 times, but the exact number of times is unknown. This fact in my view debunks the assertion that the purported trump call for the Feast of Booths is the 8th.
    4. To establish the 8th trump call specifically for the Feast of Booths, naturally the preceding call from 1-7 must also have specifically assigned purposes. But in truth, this is not the case.

    If there is an end or *last*, there must also be a beginning, and this leads to numbering. The reality for anyone interested in an objective study of the phrase "the Last Trump" is that since the trumpet calls in the OT was never listed or used in a numeric order, we cannot in good conscience, ignore the fact that the LAST TRUMP must be part of the listed group found in Revelation. It is only in the Book of Revelation that trump calls are numbered in the whole of the Bible, therefore, the last must be in that *trump cal group* irrespective of the purpose of each call, i.e. whether it is for plagues or summoning the Church.

    I have tried my honest best to align my argument with scripture irrespective of whether the outcome agrees or upends my previously held position on the Rapture. This principle should guide anyone seeking the truth, so they don't force their interpretation to agree with their own position rather scripture's position on the Rapture. I will accept without question that the last trump in the NT is not part of the listed 1-7 in Revelation if there's evidence or precedent of trump calls numbered in the OT. But since such numbering didn't hitherto exist, how then can one determine the first and the last? Since the Bible is inerrant, it makes no sense to seek the LAST TRUMP outside the ONLY NUMERICALLY LISTED trump calls in the whole Bible.
    Well, you bring up a very good question. What is the "last trumpet" mentioned by Paul? It cannot refer directly to the 7 trumpets of Revelation, since Revelation had not yet been written. My assumption is that Paul referred to "last" in the sense of the end of the age, or the last day of the age. It is the end of the present order, in preparation for the new order of the Millennium.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That assumption is rife in this discourse is unquestionable. I would like to explore the issues you raised and see where it leads.

    1. The trumpet calls used to summon ancient Israel for events is NOT listed in numerical order. Therefore, it is impossible to determine the first and the last.
    2. I have not come across any scripture about a Trumpet Call specially set aside for Christians.
    3. I agree that ancient Israel was called by a Trumpet Call more than 7 times, but the exact number of times is unknown. This fact in my view debunks the assertion that the purported trump call for the Feast of Booths is the 8th.
    4. To establish the 8th trump call specifically for the Feast of Booths, naturally the preceding call from 1-7 must also have specifically assigned purposes. But in truth, this is not the case.
    Let's deal with this claim about the Feast of Booths.
    How many days are there in the Feast?
    7 days.
    Do you know what is different between this Feast and the others?
    Well like Passover and Pentecost it is a Feast to which all men are meant to come to Jerusalem, to the temple.
    Additionally though we read this:
    Deu 31:10* And Moses commanded them, “At the end of every seven years, at the set time in the year of release, at the Feast of Booths,*
    Deu 31:11* when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

    So this Feast is connected with the Jubilee.
    It is also the Feast of Ingathering.
    It is tied into the wandering in the wilderness and its end means the end of the wilderness time.

    It is the Feast mentioned in Ezra 3 when the people had returned from exile and in Nehemiah 8 when they had finally built the city walls.

    It is also the one Festival mentioned prophetically for the future time AFTER the Messiah comes:
    (Zec 14:16)* Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

    In this Feast you are to present food offerings every day.
    It is the one Festival where every day is a holy day, though some work is allowed apart from the first and 8th.

    In 1 Kings 12 it is the festival tat was replaced by Jeroboam in Israel.

    If there is an end or *last*, there must also be a beginning, and this leads to numbering. The reality for anyone interested in an objective study of the phrase "the Last Trump" is that since the trumpet calls in the OT was never listed or used in a numeric order, we cannot in good conscience, ignore the fact that the LAST TRUMP must be part of the listed group found in Revelation. It is only in the Book of Revelation that trump calls are numbered in the whole of the Bible, therefore, the last must be in that *trump cal group* irrespective of the purpose of each call, i.e. whether it is for plagues or summoning the Church.
    There is no requirement for strict numbering. Rather there is simply a requirement for a trumpet to be blown.
    There is one blown on the first day and then the second day etc.
    On the 8th day is when the last trumpet is blown for the last Festival of the Year.
    This is the Day which celebrates the entering into the Promised Land.

    There is NO requirement for it to be the 7 trumpets in Revelation.
    This is simply the last stated in a particular sequence, but NOT the last which is blown whose purpose is DIFFERENT to that of the 7 trumpets in Revelation.

    I have tried my honest best to align my argument with scripture irrespective of whether the outcome agrees or upends my previously held position on the Rapture. This principle should guide anyone seeking the truth, so they don't force their interpretation to agree with their own position rather scripture's position on the Rapture. I will accept without question that the last trump in the NT is not part of the listed 1-7 in Revelation if there's evidence or precedent of trump calls numbered in the OT. But since such numbering didn't hitherto exist, how then can one determine the first and the last? Since the Bible is inerrant, it makes no sense to seek the LAST TRUMP outside the ONLY NUMERICALLY LISTED trump calls in the whole Bible.
    One can EASILY determine the first and last without recourse to numbering. When is the first feast in the year? Passover! And when is the last? Booths! No numbers required simply an understanding of the order of events within the calendar.
    There is plenty of evidence about this.
    Num 10:10* On the day of your gladness also, and at your appointed feasts and at the beginnings of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings. They shall be a reminder of you before your God: I am the LORD your God.”

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Thanks, So you don't see the Antichrist reigning in first 3.5 years? Is he not the rider in the seals?

    Also Im curious who people believe are raptured is it all believers at the conclusion of the judgments?
    Only the church (those in right standing with God) is raptured

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, you bring up a very good question. What is the "last trumpet" mentioned by Paul? It cannot refer directly to the 7 trumpets of Revelation, since Revelation had not yet been written. My assumption is that Paul referred to "last" in the sense of the end of the age, or the last day of the age. It is the end of the present order, in preparation for the new order of the Millennium.
    Your position would suggest that either Paul spoke on his own accord or that he knew EVERYTHING about God's eschatological plans. And I'm sure you know he couldn't possibly have known everything. If we believe that the apostles, including Paul, spoke by God's inspiration then, his statement about the *last trump* cannot be negated by the fact the list of 7 trump calls were yet to be written. A common example can be found in John 5:28-29 where Jesus spoke of the resurrection of the just and unjust in a generalized sense but later gave clarity and timescale through Paul in 1 Thess 4.

    As I said previously, my position is not written in stone. I will accept that the last trump is not in the 1-7 listed in Revelation if anyone can provide a precedent where trump calls were numbered. The assumption that the last trump call will be at the end of the age is no more speculative than everything else said in between. If no one can prove with scripture, that there will be more trumpect call(s) after the 7th, then I personally have no reason to look outside the listed 1-7 for the last trump call.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Let's deal with this claim about the Feast of Booths.
    How many days are there in the Feast?
    7 days.
    Do you know what is different between this Feast and the others?
    Well like Passover and Pentecost it is a Feast to which all men are meant to come to Jerusalem, to the temple.
    Additionally though we read this:
    Deu 31:10* And Moses commanded them, “At the end of every seven years, at the set time in the year of release, at the Feast of Booths,*
    Deu 31:11* when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

    So this Feast is connected with the Jubilee.
    It is also the Feast of Ingathering.
    It is tied into the wandering in the wilderness and its end means the end of the wilderness time.

    It is the Feast mentioned in Ezra 3 when the people had returned from exile and in Nehemiah 8 when they had finally built the city walls.

    It is also the one Festival mentioned prophetically for the future time AFTER the Messiah comes:
    (Zec 14:16)* Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

    In this Feast you are to present food offerings every day.
    It is the one Festival where every day is a holy day, though some work is allowed apart from the first and 8th.

    In 1 Kings 12 it is the festival tat was replaced by Jeroboam in Israel.

    There is no requirement for strict numbering. Rather there is simply a requirement for a trumpet to be blown.
    There is one blown on the first day and then the second day etc.
    On the 8th day is when the last trumpet is blown for the last Festival of the Year.
    This is the Day which celebrates the entering into the Promised Land.

    There is NO requirement for it to be the 7 trumpets in Revelation.
    This is simply the last stated in a particular sequence, but NOT the last which is blown whose purpose is DIFFERENT to that of the 7 trumpets in Revelation.

    One can EASILY determine the first and last without recourse to numbering. When is the first feast in the year? Passover! And when is the last? Booths! No numbers required simply an understanding of the order of events within the calendar.
    There is plenty of evidence about this.
    Num 10:10* On the day of your gladness also, and at your appointed feasts and at the beginnings of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings. They shall be a reminder of you before your God: I am the LORD your God.”
    Thank you, FHG. I will research the Feast of Booths in Jewish history and revert. But I must say your post above is the first I've seen that could potentially persuade me that the last trump call is outside the listed 1-7. Although I'm not Pretrib, if your claim is true how will those like Walls who believe the Church will be raptured before the great tribulation begins respond?

  12. #27

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No the vials are COMPLETELY separate to the trumpets.
    A simple example:
    Rev 8:8* The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.*
    Rev 8:9* A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.*

    Rev 16:3* The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea.

    Initially they seem the same, as in BOTH the second trumpet and the second vial it is about the sea.
    However the 2nd trumpet speaks ONLY of 1/3 of living things dying, whereas the 2nd vial has ALL the living things dying.
    Therefore these are NOT the same event.

    The trumpets then are less than the vials, even as the seals are less than the trumpets.

    The 1st seal was opened shortly after Revelation was given and the events of the letters to those specific churches.
    This 1st seal speaks of the Church Militant, or Christendom, which we see happened through Constantine.
    The seals cover a long span of time.
    The trumpets however cover much shorter periods of time.
    The vials are all compressed to within 42 months.

    This condensing of time is also seen in the gospel of John, where 3 years are covered in 10 chapters, but then 1 week is covered in 10 chapters.
    So too in Revelation 10 chapters lead up to the final week, then 10 chapters cover that final week, then we have the last chapters covering what happens after.
    I can see 100% how you arrive at this conclusion and it is for all means and purposes perfectly logical and reasonable, BUT, Ive read verses before and within isolation they make perfect sense until I start applying other related verses then the context changes and I then read verses different, as everyone does.

    Both the trumpets and bowls follow the same pattern and correlate the same themes.

    1 The earth
    2 The sea
    3 The rivers
    4 The sun
    5 The Beast and supernatural torment
    6 The Euphrates
    7 Heaven

    So one can say they are a cycle and that the judgments of God repeat themselves with he same pattern, which would then mean there are 14 judgments. I realise there are good reasons for assuming this is so, but there are also good reasons as to why there are only 7 judgments, with the sounding of the judgment giving us part A of the description of events, and the pouring out of the judgment giving us part B of the description of the same event, which of course allows for the differences to be married together.

    Alos 7 speaks of perfectness and completion, and when one reads the 7th trumpet description there appears not to be any judgment upon the earth except the ark of his covenant is seen in heaven along with some hail, it seems without more detail a non judgment while also being the final woe.

    Also the trumpets have the 3 woes, the 5th being the 1st the 6th being the 2nd and the 7th being the third and final It seems slightly illogical to me to follow these with another 7 greater judgments.

    Also the timing of events in revelation are easier to work out to the point it becomes simple with 7 judgments, although this is not a reason to make one consider changing their thought patterns, it does seems to me hard work working out the timing of events with the 14 judgments if not impossible, the only option is to condense the final greater judgments to near the end of the tribulation, while gathering the armies together at the same time, does not make sense to me.



    So the question to me is, is it nonsensical to combine the sounding with the pouring and does it give an expanded and greater view of the judgment poured out. To me not only do they fit, but it adds greater insight to the events of tribulation.

    A simple example:
    Rev 8:8* The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.*
    Rev 8:9* A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.*

    Rev 16:3* The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea.

    Initially they seem the same, as in BOTH the second trumpet and the second vial it is about the sea.
    However the 2nd trumpet speaks ONLY of 1/3 of living things dying, whereas the 2nd vial has ALL the living things dying.
    Therefore these are NOT the same event.
    Something like a great mountain, burning with fire is thrown into the sea, I will speculate and presume a meteor or comet enters our atmosphere and enters the sea, There are lots of elements that can turn water into blood and poison the sea, the impact alone kills one third of the creatures, I imagine a great sonic boom underwater will be instant death, a tidal wave will wipe out one third of the ships.

    The bowl then describes the sea becoming like a corpse this describes to us a process, the rotting and poisoning process which causes the rest (2/3rds) of the sea life to eventually die, and no more ships are destroyed fits with a one impact viewpoint.

    Before you throw the next example at me I could go through all the trumpets and bowls in this manner, But my point is just to show both views are at least plausible and that it isn't a bad thing to go over and consider them :-)

  13. #28
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Well funnily enough I only have the 7th bowl as happening concurrently or I see them as one and the same, I mean First the seal has to be opened, then the judgment has to be heralded then the bowl has to be poured out, I have no idea why people insist they happen Chronologically rather than concurrently.

    lets compare the 7th trumpet and vial, for the similarities are there to compare to and at least one can and should at least consider they are a description of the one and same event.

    First the 7th trumpet it says "the mystery of God is finished" in heaven there are voices, thunders, lightning's and an earthquake, oh and hail.

    Vs 18 of ch 11 talks about the wrath has come, and to destroy those who destroy the earth etc

    In the 7th bowl it says "It is done" is heard from the temple and there are voices, thunders, lightning's and an earthquake and great hail fell from heaven to earth upon men.

    ch 16 to give Babylon the cup of wine of His wrath etc, albeit a lot more detail of the judgment of the harlot.

    Anyway I agree the 7th trumpet is sounding the final phase and the end of the tribulation.
    I partially agree with you that most of the seals trumpets and bowls are the same events at the same time. I see them as symbolic for the judgment in Israel in 70AD.

    But I do see the 7th trumpet & the 7th seal different as the 7th seal was the end of Jerusalem and the 7th trumpet as the end of our world

    The six seals line up with the Olivit Discourse nicely
    Last edited by marty fox; Nov 21st 2018 at 09:18 PM. Reason: added info

  14. #29
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your position would suggest that either Paul spoke on his own accord or that he knew EVERYTHING about God's eschatological plans. And I'm sure you know he couldn't possibly have known everything. If we believe that the apostles, including Paul, spoke by God's inspiration then, his statement about the *last trump* cannot be negated by the fact the list of 7 trump calls were yet to be written. A common example can be found in John 5:28-29 where Jesus spoke of the resurrection of the just and unjust in a generalized sense but later gave clarity and timescale through Paul in 1 Thess 4.

    As I said previously, my position is not written in stone. I will accept that the last trump is not in the 1-7 listed in Revelation if anyone can provide a precedent where trump calls were numbered. The assumption that the last trump call will be at the end of the age is no more speculative than everything else said in between. If no one can prove with scripture, that there will be more trumpect call(s) after the 7th, then I personally have no reason to look outside the listed 1-7 for the last trump call.
    As I said, my assumption has to be that there are no numbered trumpet blasts in sequence. The "last trumpet" is therefore simply God's metaphorical way of announcing the end of the age. It is, like the "last day," the last announcement of God, or the last military maneuver to accomplish, in preparation for the coming of Christ's Kingdom. It is, in other words, not the "last trumpet" out of 4, 5, or 6 trumpets. It isn't even the "7th trumpet." Rather, it is the last trumpet call of the age, which is God's message through angels that the current age is ending with the defeat of Antichrist, in preparation for the next age.

    This is Scriptural because there is no other context in the passage for any group of trumpets, other than the general sense that God announces, through angels, various stages in the development of His Kingdom. The "last trumpet," therefore, is, in context, the final declaration in the age, as announced by angels.

    1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    1 Cor 15.47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
    50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


    Neither passage above has a list of trumpet calls, but only one. The context is the end of the age. The Corinthians passage has, as an aid, reference to the 1st man and the second man. In the set of two men, Christ is the "last man." And thus, the "last trumpet" is the one that ends the process, from Adam to Christ, from earth to heaven, from 1st to last. The "last trumpet," therefore, is the end of this age, leading to the new heavenly age of Christ. It is when he returns to glorify his Church, and to establish his reign on the earth.

  15. #30

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I partially agree with you that most of the seals trumpets and bowls are the same events at the same time. I see them as symbolic for the judgment in Israel in 70AD.

    But I do see the 7th trumpet & the 7th seal different as the 7th seal was the end of Jerusalem and the 7th trumpet as the end of our world

    The six seals line up with the Olivit Discourse nicely
    Im trying to work out peoples viewpoints, So you are Amil? with all the seals and most of the trumpets already completed , with the 7th still future, only the 7th?

    Im curious as all amils have their individual views as well, what date did John write the book of revelation? and are all the seals future from the time of writing?

    How would you answer this about the first four seals?

    The Rider is the Antichrist, and the first Horse he rides is white, and he goes out in peace and is adored and becomes the leader of the world, by diplomacy and threat he conquers the world and sets up a collective group of countries or coalitions.
    The next horse he rides is red, and now there is war.
    The next horse he rides is black, and as a result there is now famine and massive inflation.
    The next horse is pale, and 1/4 of the world are killed as a result of this war and famine.

    Even if you disagree with my conclusions, I am curious how you can have these events from the seals as already happened or happened before 70ad? please explain how you see these seals and how they have been fulfilled? As Im re-going over these at the moment as well in my personal study.


    Sorry if im misrepresenting your view Im having a hard time working out what position all the regulars are coming from, and then when I think I do they seem to leave the assumed view at certain places lol, but Ill get there even if slowly

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