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Thread: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

  1. #31
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    m trying to work out peoples viewpoints, So you are Amil? with all the seals and most of the trumpets already completed , with the 7th still future, only the 7th?

    Im curious as all amils have their individual views as well, what date did John write the book of revelation? and are all the seals future from the time of writing?
    I would say that i,m closest to amil and I think that the 7th trumpet is still in the future. I also think that John wrote the book of revelation in the early 60's of the first century and the first 6 seals was the start of and the siege on Jerusalem by Rome. The seals trumpets and bowls are symbolic signs of judgement

    How would you answer this about the first four seals?

    The Rider is the Antichrist, and the first Horse he rides is white, and he goes out in peace and is adored and becomes the leader of the world, by diplomacy and threat he conquers the world and sets up a collective group of countries or coalitions.
    The next horse he rides is red, and now there is war.
    The next horse he rides is black, and as a result there is now famine and massive inflation.
    The next horse is pale, and 1/4 of the world are killed as a result of this war and famine.
    I see the 4 horse men as the war and judgement on Israel started by Nero.

    The white horse was Rome who was the great conqueror on the world

    The red horse was the civil war happened within Jerusalem during the Roman siege

    The black horse was the massive starvation which happen within Jerusalem when the zealots burnt the food store houses during the siege

    The pale horse was the massive death of over one million people during the siege

    Even if you disagree with my conclusions, I am curious how you can have these events from the seals as already happened or happened before 70ad? please explain how you see these seals and how they have been fulfilled? As Im re-going over these at the moment as well in my personal study.
    The first 6 seals line up with the events Jesus talked about in Matthew 24.

    The 5th seal is call for vengeance of all of the saints who were killed by the Jews in the first century.

    The 6th seal as the fall of Jerusalem and the following of Gods wrath on those nations in the following years

    Sorry if im misrepresenting your view Im having a hard time working out what position all the regulars are coming from, and then when I think I do they seem to leave the assumed view at certain places lol, but Ill get there even if slowly
    No worries and yes you will

    i also see the trumpets blown as announcements for events to occur

  2. #32
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I can see 100% how you arrive at this conclusion and it is for all means and purposes perfectly logical and reasonable, BUT, Ive read verses before and within isolation they make perfect sense until I start applying other related verses then the context changes and I then read verses different, as everyone does.

    Both the trumpets and bowls follow the same pattern and correlate the same themes.

    1 The earth
    2 The sea
    3 The rivers
    4 The sun
    5 The Beast and supernatural torment
    6 The Euphrates
    7 Heaven
    Yes they do follow the same pattern and yet there are clear differences which are NOT possible at the same time.

    So one can say they are a cycle and that the judgments of God repeat themselves with he same pattern, which would then mean there are 14 judgments. I realise there are good reasons for assuming this is so, but there are also good reasons as to why there are only 7 judgments, with the sounding of the judgment giving us part A of the description of events, and the pouring out of the judgment giving us part B of the description of the same event, which of course allows for the differences to be married together.
    You miss out the 7 seals.
    Are the 7 trumpets actually judgements the same as the 7 vials?
    No, for the trumpets affect everyone EXCEPT His own.

    Yet the vials affect those who have taken the Mark (IOW made a stand against God).

    Also 7 speaks of perfectness and completion, and when one reads the 7th trumpet description there appears not to be any judgment upon the earth except the ark of his covenant is seen in heaven along with some hail, it seems without more detail a non judgment while also being the final woe.
    This is where you err. The 7th trumpet is then speaking of all that occurs next. Just as the 7th seal has the same and speaks of the 7 trumpets, so the 7th trumpet has the 7 vials.

    Also the trumpets have the 3 woes, the 5th being the 1st the 6th being the 2nd and the 7th being the third and final It seems slightly illogical to me to follow these with another 7 greater judgments.
    The 7 last ones are greater because we are in the last period BEFORE Jesus returns and you might notice the refrain:
    Rev 16:9* They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.*

    Also the timing of events in revelation are easier to work out to the point it becomes simple with 7 judgments, although this is not a reason to make one consider changing their thought patterns, it does seems to me hard work working out the timing of events with the 14 judgments if not impossible, the only option is to condense the final greater judgments to near the end of the tribulation, while gathering the armies together at the same time, does not make sense to me.
    The 7 vials ALL occur with the final 42 months. Notice none of them have a length of time connected.
    The 6th trumpet though is for longer than 1260 days and the 5th trumpet for 5 months.

    So the question to me is, is it nonsensical to combine the sounding with the pouring and does it give an expanded and greater view of the judgment poured out. To me not only do they fit, but it adds greater insight to the events of tribulation.
    IF they added insight by being the SAME then I would agree, but it does NOT, in fact it takes away.
    A greater insight is seen when the 7 vials are more intense versions of what occurred with the trumpets.
    It isn't nonsensical the question is are the compatible, and the ultimate answer is no they are not.
    You CANNOT have BOTH 1/3 dying AND ALL dying at the same time.

    Something like a great mountain, burning with fire is thrown into the sea, I will speculate and presume a meteor or comet enters our atmosphere and enters the sea, There are lots of elements that can turn water into blood and poison the sea, the impact alone kills one third of the creatures, I imagine a great sonic boom underwater will be instant death, a tidal wave will wipe out one third of the ships.

    The bowl then describes the sea becoming like a corpse this describes to us a process, the rotting and poisoning process which causes the rest (2/3rds) of the sea life to eventually die, and no more ships are destroyed fits with a one impact viewpoint.

    Before you throw the next example at me I could go through all the trumpets and bowls in this manner, But my point is just to show both views are at least plausible and that it isn't a bad thing to go over and consider them :-)
    IF all the creature were to die then it would state that, but it doesn't.
    So the affects are limited at that time to 1/3.
    A later event causes the rest to be killed.
    It isn't plausible IF we believe it is prophetically telling us what happens.
    Last edited by ForHisglory; Nov 25th 2018 at 06:12 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Originally Posted by Walls
    That's the question. Does scripture say the "last" is the Seventh? The Seventh is ONLY the last of the Trumpets that announce plagues. What about those that call people? What if the trumpet that calls Israel is a different trumpet to that one that calls Christians? How many times are Israel called by a trumpet in the Old Testament? I dare say more than seven times. And if the Church is supposed to be called by the "last" Trump, where was the first trump, or where were the first six if that is the seventh? Let us all, including me, beware of assuming things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That assumption is rife in this discourse is unquestionable. I would like to explore the issues you raised and see where it leads.

    1. The trumpet calls used to summon ancient Israel for events is NOT listed in numerical order. Therefore, it is impossible to determine the first and the last.
    2. I have not come across any scripture about a Trumpet Call specially set aside for Christians.
    3. I agree that ancient Israel was called by a Trumpet Call more than 7 times, but the exact number of times is unknown. This fact in my view debunks the assertion that the purported trump call for the Feast of Booths is the 8th.
    4. To establish the 8th trump call as specifically for the Feast of Booths, naturally the preceding calls from 1-7 must also have specifically assigned purposes. But in truth, this is not the case.

    If there is an end or *last*, there must also be a beginning, and this leads to numbering. The reality for anyone interested in an objective study of the phrase "the Last Trump" is that since the trumpet calls in the OT was never listed or used in a numeric order. We cannot in good conscience, ignore the fact that the LAST TRUMP must be part of the listed group found in Revelation. It is only in the Book of Revelation that trump calls are numbered in the whole of the Bible, therefore, the last must be in that *trump call group* irrespective of the purpose of each call, i.e. whether it is for plagues or summoning the Church.

    I have tried my honest best to align my argument with scripture irrespective of whether the outcome agrees or upends my previously held position on the Rapture. This principle should guide anyone seeking the truth, so they don't force their interpretation to agree with their own position rather than the scripture's position on the Rapture. I will accept without question the assertion that the last trump in the NT is not part of the listed 1-7 in Revelation, if there's evidence or precedent of trump calls numbered in the OT. But since such numbering didn't hitherto exist, how then can one determine the first and the last? Since the Bible is inerrant, it makes no sense to seek the LAST TRUMP outside the ONLY NUMERICALLY LISTED trump calls in the whole Bible.
    Although the thread has run away from me while I slept, I would like to answer you, even if out of courtesy. And I must concurr with your attitude. If any one single verse upsets our train of belief, it must examined and re-examined until it is in harmony. Or else we must admit that we hold a doctrine but that there are some holes in it.

    The term "Last Trump" only occurs ONCE in scripture. That is in 1st Corinthians 15:52; "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." The first inspired letter to Corinth is written, "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1st Corinthians 1:2). That this trumpet is the same as the "Trumpet of God" in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 is clear as it has to do with the same events of the resurrection of Christians. I propose that "the LAST trump" here is the last Trumpet FOR Christians.

    Other Trumpets will blow for the Jews, for they are gathered (Matt.24:31), and yet other trumpets will blow for the plagues. Maybe even trumpets will blow for the nations, seeing as they are gathered at the Throne in Matthew 25 (at the end of this age) and the "rest of the dead" are gathered at the White Throne at the end of the next age. But to try and equate the "last Trump" of 1st Corinthians 15:52 to with the seventh trumpet of the plagues is not warranted. This of course will upset some because they have hinged their timelines on the seven Trumpets of Revelation Chapter 8. But it cannot be helped.

  4. #34
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Im trying to work out peoples viewpoints, So you are Amil? with all the seals and most of the trumpets already completed , with the 7th still future, only the 7th?

    Im curious as all amils have their individual views as well, what date did John write the book of revelation? and are all the seals future from the time of writing?

    How would you answer this about the first four seals?

    The Rider is the Antichrist, and the first Horse he rides is white, and he goes out in peace and is adored and becomes the leader of the world, by diplomacy and threat he conquers the world and sets up a collective group of countries or coalitions.
    The next horse he rides is red, and now there is war.
    The next horse he rides is black, and as a result there is now famine and massive inflation.
    The next horse is pale, and 1/4 of the world are killed as a result of this war and famine.

    Even if you disagree with my conclusions, I am curious how you can have these events from the seals as already happened or happened before 70ad? please explain how you see these seals and how they have been fulfilled? As Im re-going over these at the moment as well in my personal study.


    Sorry if im misrepresenting your view Im having a hard time working out what position all the regulars are coming from, and then when I think I do they seem to leave the assumed view at certain places lol, but Ill get there even if slowly
    It is speculative, but may well be true. FGH posted a persuasive insight into the Feast of Booths yesterday which I'm still studying for hard facts. But it looks like both of you might be right.

  5. #35
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Although the thread has run away from me while I slept, I would like to answer you, even if out of courtesy. And I must concurr with your attitude. If any one single verse upsets our train of belief, it must examined and re-examined until it is in harmony. Or else we must admit that we hold a doctrine but that there are some holes in it.

    The term "Last Trump" only occurs ONCE in scripture. That is in 1st Corinthians 15:52; "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." The first inspired letter to Corinth is written, "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1st Corinthians 1:2). That this trumpet is the same as the "Trumpet of God" in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 is clear as it has to do with the same events of the resurrection of Christians. I propose that "the LAST trump" here is the last Trumpet FOR Christians.

    Other Trumpets will blow for the Jews, for they are gathered (Matt.24:31), and yet other trumpets will blow for the plagues. Maybe even trumpets will blow for the nations, seeing as they are gathered at the Throne in Matthew 25 (at the end of this age) and the "rest of the dead" are gathered at the White Throne at the end of the next age. But to try and equate the "last Trump" of 1st Corinthians 15:52 to with the seventh trumpet of the plagues is not warranted. This of course will upset some because they have hinged their timelines on the seven Trumpets of Revelation Chapter 8. But it cannot be helped.
    Now that you've elaborated on what you meant by Trumpet Call for Christians, I agree since no unbeliever will hear it. However, we seem polarised on Matt 24:31. While you posit they are for Jews, my position is that it also refers to the Rapture of the Church. I can understand why you believe it's a call to Israel given that Jesus spoke to his disciples.

    But if you accept that the Olivet Discourse transcends the Jews as it is a cumulative account of worldwide events leading to his Glorious Return, then you'd think twice before making the claim that the trump call is exclusively to gather Israel. You will agree that Matt 24 is not in chronology as we see the events of the Rapture expounded from verses 37-41.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry
    I currently hold to the pre trib view, But that doesn't mean I don't revaluate it every now and again. I am just going over the seals, trumpet judgements and vials again, and every time I do I am always reminded of the mid/post? trib view that the seventh trumpet is the last trump, this always seemed contradictory to me, I mean is it a judgment or the rapture, how can it be both?

    Ive always thought relating the last trump to the 7th trumpet was plucking at strings, is there any other reasons why one could associate the last trumpet to the timing of the rapture, so it actually plays a melody?


    I also realised that by dismissing this view previously I don't fully understand the logistics of holding this viewpoint so for a start If you could answer these questions it will help my understanding.


    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?
    I think that the seals, trumpets, and vials run concurrently with each other. At the end of the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial the rapture takes place. IOW, the trumpets take place at the same time as the last 'seal', and the vials take place at the same time as the last 'trumpet.'


    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  7. #37

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I would say that i,m closest to amil and I think that the 7th trumpet is still in the future. I also think that John wrote the book of revelation in the early 60's of the first century and the first 6 seals was the start of and the siege on Jerusalem by Rome. The seals trumpets and bowls are symbolic signs of judgement



    I see the 4 horse men as the war and judgement on Israel started by Nero.

    The white horse was Rome who was the great conqueror on the world

    The red horse was the civil war happened within Jerusalem during the Roman siege

    The black horse was the massive starvation which happen within Jerusalem when the zealots burnt the food store houses during the siege

    The pale horse was the massive death of over one million people during the siege



    The first 6 seals line up with the events Jesus talked about in Matthew 24.

    The 5th seal is call for vengeance of all of the saints who were killed by the Jews in the first century.

    The 6th seal as the fall of Jerusalem and the following of Gods wrath on those nations in the following years



    No worries and yes you will

    i also see the trumpets blown as announcements for events to occur
    Thanks for taking the time explaining, it sure is interesting but for me it raises more questions than answers :-)

    Like hadn't Rome already conquered and was ruling the world, especially Jerusalem, before John even wrote the rider would go forth and conquer.

    And the pale horse the name of him who sat on it is death and a forth of the earth was given over to kill with the sword, hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth, I think although not 100% that the results of the wars and famine of the previous seals leads to one forth of the worlds population dying at this point, I have trouble relating all this to 70 ad so my question is how this could all equate to 1 million dying in Jerusalem?


    The 6th seal as the fall of Jerusalem and the following of Gods wrath on those nations in the following years
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    I cant quite correlate your view with this, the great day always seems to be the tribulation.

  8. #38

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes they do follow the same pattern and yet there are clear differences which are NOT possible at the same time.


    You miss out the 7 seals.
    Are the 7 trumpets actually judgements the same as the 7 vials?

    No, for the trumpets affect everyone EXCEPT His own.

    Yet the vials affect those who have taken the Mark (IOW made a stand against God).
    Im a bit confused, which isn't hard to do, lol, you may need to elaborate more for me :-)

    Are you saying the trumpets don't affect those who are sealed? which means those with the mark could theoretically be affected, and are you saying the vials effect those who have taken the mark?


    This is where you err. The 7th trumpet is then speaking of all that occurs next. Just as the 7th seal has the same and speaks of the 7 trumpets, so the 7th trumpet has the 7 vials.
    So with the final 3 soundings of the trumpets we have the final 3 woes, yet the 3rd woe the seventh trumpet is actually the seven vial judgments?


    The 7 last ones are greater because we are in the last period BEFORE Jesus returns and you might notice the refrain:
    Rev 16:9* They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.*


    The 7 vials ALL occur with the final 42 months. Notice none of them have a length of time connected.
    The 6th trumpet though is for longer than 1260 days and the 5th trumpet for 5 months.
    If the 6th trumpet is longer than 1260 days then do you have the vial judgments overlapping or happening at the time?

    Im beginning to see our chronology and time frames of events may effect our thinking here and if quite different would take a huge amount of work from both of us to explain and elaborate to understand each other views, which is why Im leaving the seals alone.


    IF they added insight by being the SAME then I would agree, but it does NOT, in fact it takes away.
    A greater insight is seen when the 7 vials are more intense versions of what occurred with the trumpets.
    It isn't nonsensical the question is are the compatible, and the ultimate answer is no they are not.
    You CANNOT have BOTH 1/3 dying AND ALL dying at the same time.
    Yet if a huge meteor made up of some element that is toxic and turns water like blood impacted the pacific ocean, I don't see it as unrealistic or unreasonable to assume it would be a 1/3 on impact and yet capable of spreading and killing all the sea life, likewise such an impact would have to have consequences and near kill everything anyway, rendering the vial as a second judgment unwarranted.



    IF all the creature were to die then it would state that, but it doesn't.
    So the affects are limited at that time to 1/3.
    A later event causes the rest to be killed.
    It isn't plausible IF we believe it is prophetically telling us what happens.
    I blame the gospels, the events seem to contradict one another in each gospel, then I learned to start filling in the gaps and getting a bigger more complete picture, Im not saying Im right for doing that here, its just Ive gotten use to doing that when reading scripture and is why I am applying it here, if its wrong Ill have to change my mind so I will keep going over it for sure.

  9. #39
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Thanks for taking the time explaining, it sure is interesting but for me it raises more questions than answers :-)

    Like hadn't Rome already conquered and was ruling the world, especially Jerusalem, before John even wrote the rider would go forth and conquer.

    And the pale horse the name of him who sat on it is death and a forth of the earth was given over to kill with the sword, hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth, I think although not 100% that the results of the wars and famine of the previous seals leads to one forth of the worlds population dying at this point, I have trouble relating all this to 70 ad so my question is how this could all equate to 1 million dying in Jerusalem?
    Your welcome and yes Rome did already rule and conquered the known world before but this part focusses on Nero crushing the Jewish revolt

    We have to read the book of Revelation not in our times but standing in the shoes of the people that it was written to what would all of this mean to them.

    Some believe as I do that 1/4 of the world means apart of but not all.

    1.1 million people died during the siege and only 97000 survived. I think that the 4th seal is the result of the first 3 seals as it is called death.

    I cant quite correlate your view with this, the great day always seems to be the tribulation
    It depends on which tribulation

    The great tribulation is the persecution that started on the day Stephen was martyred see below

    Rev 7:13-14
    13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Jesus also states that there will be great tribulation in Matthew 24 but this isn't "The great tribulation" but "a great tribulation". This accrued during the first century leading upto 70AD

    The wrath of God is Gods wrath on His enemies which is different from tribulations

    .

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Im a bit confused, which isn't hard to do, lol, you may need to elaborate more for me :-)
    Are you saying the trumpets don't affect those who are sealed? which means those with the mark could theoretically be affected, and are you saying the vials effect those who have taken the mark?
    When the trumpets are blown NOBODY has taken the Mark of the beast. Notice ZERO mention of that Mark until AFTER the 7th trumpet.
    Secondly, we are sealed by God and you may have noticed the 144K are also noted as sealed. This is tied into the destruction to come on the earth and sea.
    Thirdly this should cause us to consider what happened when disaster befell Egypt at the time of the Ten Plagues.
    Fourthly, we should note these two things:
    Rev 9:4* They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.*
    Rev 9:5* They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.*
    Rev 9:6* And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

    So this says the 5th trumpet affects EVERYBODY who is NOT in Jesus - have not been sealed by God.

    The comparatives are these:
    Rev 16:8* The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire.*
    Rev 16:9* They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.*

    This states people again and so seems to be everyone (EXCEPT those who have repented - note the refrain given), just like the 5th trumpet.
    Yet we have a narrowing down with the next vial:
    Rev 16:10* The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish*
    Rev 16:11* and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.*

    Here it is only on the beast's kingdom.
    yet note this also:
    Rev 14:9* And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,*
    Rev 14:10* he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.*
    Rev 14:11* And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

    And we are told this:
    Rev 16:2* So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

    This suggests that the people mentioned in connection with the vials are those who have the Mark.

    So with the final 3 soundings of the trumpets we have the final 3 woes, yet the 3rd woe the seventh trumpet is actually the seven vial judgments?
    Almost. The actual woe is this:
    Rev 12:12* Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”*

    The 3rd woe is the duration of the 7th trumpet events, even as the 2nd woe is the duration of the time from the blowing of the 6th trumpet until its end and the 1st woe was from the blowing of the 5th trumpet until the end of its events.
    The cause though is Satan being cast out of heaven and so being on earth to give authority to the beast and for the beast then to rule - which is the GT.

    If the 6th trumpet is longer than 1260 days then do you have the vial judgments overlapping or happening at the time?
    No, the vials are not until after the 7th trumpet is blown.

    Im beginning to see our chronology and time frames of events may effect our thinking here and if quite different would take a huge amount of work from both of us to explain and elaborate to understand each other views, which is why Im leaving the seals alone.
    The only thing to note about the seals for now is that IF you believe that the Rapture occurs BEFORE the 1st seal is opened, then this will cause a lot of chronological problems to fit everything into a 7 year time-frame.

    Yet if a huge meteor made up of some element that is toxic and turns water like blood impacted the pacific ocean, I don't see it as unrealistic or unreasonable to assume it would be a 1/3 on impact and yet capable of spreading and killing all the sea life, likewise such an impact would have to have consequences and near kill everything anyway, rendering the vial as a second judgment unwarranted.
    The point is that the statement has that whatever the cause - meteor or whatever, the RESULT is 1/3rd dead. The RESULT cannot be BOTH 1/3rd AND the whole.

    I blame the gospels, the events seem to contradict one another in each gospel, then I learned to start filling in the gaps and getting a bigger more complete picture, Im not saying Im right for doing that here, its just Ive gotten use to doing that when reading scripture and is why I am applying it here, if its wrong Ill have to change my mind so I will keep going over it for sure.
    I have no contradictions in the gospels so I don't do that. I do take things form one gospel to help understand another as none of them are complete.
    However there is no way for 1/3rd to also mean a whole. It would mean one statement of truth would not be true. There can NEVER be a contradiction, so if we find one it means we aren't understanding correctly.

  11. #41

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    I think that the seals, trumpets, and vials run concurrently with each other. At the end of the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial the rapture takes place. IOW, the trumpets take place at the same time as the last 'seal', and the vials take place at the same time as the last 'trumpet.'


    Thanks Cyber and cool pic, I hope you are premil so you can answer these questions ;-)

    Who do you have entering the 1000yr period, regarding believing and unbelieving Jews and gentiles and who exactly is raptured, the more reasoning for your viewpoint the better

  12. #42
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Hey, sorry Boangry, Im Amillennial. The diagram works for amill but also for postrib/premil. However, premils have to explain the bowl judgements as only ‘scorching’ the surface of the earth, then having it salvaged and renewed for another 1000 years.

    That is possible, but doubtful in my opinion. I believe the planet will be consumed in the bowl judgements and that the rapture will occur during that stage. There will be a "resurrection of the just and the unjust" and the rapture will happen at the same time. I look forward to a “new heavens and a new earth.”
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  13. #43

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post


    The point is that the statement has that whatever the cause - meteor or whatever, the RESULT is 1/3rd dead. The RESULT cannot be BOTH 1/3rd AND the whole.


    I have no contradictions in the gospels so I don't do that. I do take things form one gospel to help understand another as none of them are complete.
    However there is no way for 1/3rd to also mean a whole. It would mean one statement of truth would not be true. There can NEVER be a contradiction, so if we find one it means we aren't understanding correctly.
    If I can start here, this pretty much seems to be your main point, I know it appears a contradiction to you yet it causes no problem for me, Its just like the differences in the gospel, if I said in one account there is only one angel outside the tomb and in another there is two angels outside the empty tomb, you will note the difference and harmonise it, for as you say scripture does not contradict.

    As you keep repeating 1/3 cannot mean a whole to me, it really has about the same effect as if you were trying to tell me one angel does not mean two so they were at different times or at different tombs, yet and this is why I love studying the gospels for scripture does this continually it has apparent contradictions (differences) to attract our attention to cause deeper study and find out things that are written for our learning.


    And I still consider the possibility that your right, its just this point doesnt have any bearing on it for me.


    When the trumpets are blown NOBODY has taken the Mark of the beast. Notice ZERO mention of that Mark until AFTER the 7th trumpet.


    Secondly, we are sealed by God and you may have noticed the 144K are also noted as sealed. This is tied into the destruction to come on the earth and sea.
    Thirdly this should cause us to consider what happened when disaster befell Egypt at the time of the Ten Plagues.
    Fourthly, we should note these two things:
    Rev 9:4* They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.*
    Rev 9:5* They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.*
    Rev 9:6* And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

    So this says the 5th trumpet affects EVERYBODY who is NOT in Jesus - have not been sealed by God.

    The comparatives are these:
    Rev 16:8* The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire.*
    Rev 16:9* They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.*

    This states people again and so seems to be everyone (EXCEPT those who have repented - note the refrain given), just like the 5th trumpet.
    Yet we have a narrowing down with the next vial:
    Rev 16:10* The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish*
    Rev 16:11* and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.*

    Here it is only on the beast's kingdom.
    yet note this also:
    Rev 14:9* And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,*
    Rev 14:10* he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.*
    Rev 14:11* And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

    And we are told this:
    Rev 16:2* So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

    This suggests that the people mentioned in connection with the vials are those who have the Mark.
    Thanks, appreciate your viewpoint, some good food for thought.


    Almost. The actual woe is this:
    Rev 12:12* Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”*

    The 3rd woe is the duration of the 7th trumpet events, even as the 2nd woe is the duration of the time from the blowing of the 6th trumpet until its end and the 1st woe was from the blowing of the 5th trumpet until the end of its events.
    The cause though is Satan being cast out of heaven and so being on earth to give authority to the beast and for the beast then to rule - which is the GT.


    No, the vials are not until after the 7th trumpet is blown.
    What I mean is from the sounding 6th trumpet you have the time frame for it being 1260 days, so if you see it as only effecting those that don't have the seal of God, and the first vial only effects those with the mark of the beast, therefore I can deduce you must have the 6th trumpet at least 3 and a half years before to finish before the first bowl judgment, So I can also guess that you see the GT as a lot less than 3 1/2 years otherwise for example you would have to have the 6th trumpet beginning at the start of the 7 year period, to make the bowls have 1260 days of wrath, sorry I have a bad memory I for some reason thought you were of the view the GT was 1260 days now im thinking you have less?


    The only thing to note about the seals for now is that IF you believe that the Rapture occurs BEFORE the 1st seal is opened, then this will cause a lot of chronological problems to fit everything into a 7 year time-frame.
    This is what I really want to know, how is this so?

  14. #44

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Hey, sorry Boangry, Im Amillennial.
    Oh sorry about that
    The diagram works for amill but also for postrib/premil. However, premils have to explain the bowl judgements as only ‘scorching’ the surface of the earth, then having it salvaged and renewed for another 1000 years.

    That is possible, but doubtful in my opinion. I believe the planet will be consumed in the bowl judgements and that the rapture will occur during that stage. There will be a "resurrection of the just and the unjust" and the rapture will happen at the same time. I look forward to a “new heavens and a new earth.”
    Agree It will be a pretty beaten up and scarred planet, pretty much like after the flood, yet there will be survivors at the end so still liveable.

  15. #45
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Oh sorry about that
    Don’t be sorry for me bro. I’m going to be on the new earth doing a bit of trout fishing. Can’t wait.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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