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Thread: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

  1. #1

    The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    I currently hold to the pre trib view, But that doesn't mean I don't revaluate it every now and again. I am just going over the seals, trumpet judgements and vials again, and every time I do I am always reminded of the mid/post? trib view that the seventh trumpet is the last trump, this always seemed contradictory to me, I mean is it a judgment or the rapture, how can it be both?

    Ive always thought relating the last trump to the 7th trumpet was plucking at strings, is there any other reasons why one could associate the last trumpet to the timing of the rapture, so it actually plays a melody?


    I also realised that by dismissing this view previously I don't fully understand the logistics of holding this viewpoint so for a start If you could answer these questions it will help my understanding.


    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I currently hold to the pre trib view, But that doesn't mean I don't revaluate it every now and again. I am just going over the seals, trumpet judgements and vials again, and every time I do I am always reminded of the mid/post? trib view that the seventh trumpet is the last trump, this always seemed contradictory to me, I mean is it a judgment or the rapture, how can it be both?

    Ive always thought relating the last trump to the 7th trumpet was plucking at strings, is there any other reasons why one could associate the last trumpet to the timing of the rapture, so it actually plays a melody?


    I also realised that by dismissing this view previously I don't fully understand the logistics of holding this viewpoint so for a start If you could answer these questions it will help my understanding.


    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?
    Maybe there is another view to consider. Almost exclusively a "trumpet" was a shrill piercing musical instrument to call people to a gathering. But not so the Trumpets of Revelation Chapter 8. They are to announce plagues upon men. So the Bible shows TWO trumpets; One for calling a gathering of God's people, and Another for announcing the plagues of the great Tribulation. And so, the "last" Trumpet of 1st Corinthians 15:52 is the same "Trumpet of God" in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 calling the dead in Christ to resurrection and then Rapture with the living. But the Trumpets announcing plagues on the rest of men are different Trumpets. To try and fit the seventh Trumpet of Plague in Revelation to the "Last" Trump of God is not warranted. Even the wording is different. If scripture makes a difference - so should we.

    Just as an added thought, in Matthew 24:31 Israel is gathered from the "four winds". Only Israel was dispersed there (Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9; Zech.2:6), and the whole context of Matthew 24:1-31 is Jewish. Now, Israel is gathered AFTER the Church. But they too have a "Trumpet". So even if one wants to but the "last Trump" as the seventh Trumpet, there must be an eighth - and it is then the last one. This strengthens the argument that there are DIFFERENT trumpets.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    A key festival to understand is the last in the year:
    Lev 23:33* And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,*
    Lev 23:34* “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, On the fifteenth day of this seventh month and for seven days is the Feast of Booths to the LORD.*
    Lev 23:35* On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.*
    Lev 23:36* For seven days you shall present food offerings to the LORD. On the eighth day you shall hold a holy convocation and present a food offering to the LORD. It is a solemn assembly; you shall not do any ordinary work.*
    Lev 23:37* “These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim as times of holy convocation, for presenting to the LORD food offerings, burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each on its proper day,*
    Lev 23:38* besides the LORD's Sabbaths and besides your gifts and besides all your vow offerings and besides all your freewill offerings, which you give to the LORD.*
    Lev 23:39* “On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD seven days. On the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest.*
    Lev 23:40* And you shall take on the first day the fruit of splendid trees, branches of palm trees and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.*
    Lev 23:41* You shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It is a statute forever throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.*
    Lev 23:42* You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All native Israelites shall dwell in booths,*
    Lev 23:43* that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.”*

    Now every day they were to blow a trumpet - 7 days means 7 trumpets.
    Yet with this festival there is an 8th day.
    It is the day to return to your home and leave your booth, the sojourn in the wilderness is over. That 8th day also has a trumpet blown for the holy gathering.
    It is the Last Trumpet of the year and I believe the Last for the Rapture.

    As Walls put the other 7 in trumpet all herald something, none of which is the Rapture.
    The 7th trumpet heralds the start of the Jesus as King of Kings in the heavens, with Satan cast out.
    It is also the final woe, which has the 7 vials and the rule of the beast for 42 months.

    As I can't find a single scripture supporting pre-trib it is hard to help you. as clearly these 7 trumpets are blown AFTER the supposed pre-trib rapture usually taught as coinciding with Rev 4.

  4. #4

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Maybe there is another view to consider. Almost exclusively a "trumpet" was a shrill piercing musical instrument to call people to a gathering. But not so the Trumpets of Revelation Chapter 8. They are to announce plagues upon men. So the Bible shows TWO trumpets; One for calling a gathering of God's people, and Another for announcing the plagues of the great Tribulation. And so, the "last" Trumpet of 1st Corinthians 15:52 is the same "Trumpet of God" in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 calling the dead in Christ to resurrection and then Rapture with the living. But the Trumpets announcing plagues on the rest of men are different Trumpets. To try and fit the seventh Trumpet of Plague in Revelation to the "Last" Trump of God is not warranted. Even the wording is different. If scripture makes a difference - so should we.

    Just as an added thought, in Matthew 24:31 Israel is gathered from the "four winds". Only Israel was dispersed there (Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9; Zech.2:6), and the whole context of Matthew 24:1-31 is Jewish. Now, Israel is gathered AFTER the Church. But they too have a "Trumpet". So even if one wants to but the "last Trump" as the seventh Trumpet, there must be an eighth - and it is then the last one. This strengthens the argument that there are DIFFERENT trumpets.
    Thanks Walls, makes sense

  5. #5

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    A key festival to understand is the last in the year:
    Lev 23:33* And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,*
    Lev 23:34* “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, On the fifteenth day of this seventh month and for seven days is the Feast of Booths to the LORD.*
    Lev 23:35* On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.*
    Lev 23:36* For seven days you shall present food offerings to the LORD. On the eighth day you shall hold a holy convocation and present a food offering to the LORD. It is a solemn assembly; you shall not do any ordinary work.*
    Lev 23:37* “These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim as times of holy convocation, for presenting to the LORD food offerings, burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each on its proper day,*
    Lev 23:38* besides the LORD's Sabbaths and besides your gifts and besides all your vow offerings and besides all your freewill offerings, which you give to the LORD.*
    Lev 23:39* “On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD seven days. On the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest.*
    Lev 23:40* And you shall take on the first day the fruit of splendid trees, branches of palm trees and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.*
    Lev 23:41* You shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It is a statute forever throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.*
    Lev 23:42* You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All native Israelites shall dwell in booths,*
    Lev 23:43* that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.”*

    Now every day they were to blow a trumpet - 7 days means 7 trumpets.
    Yet with this festival there is an 8th day.
    It is the day to return to your home and leave your booth, the sojourn in the wilderness is over. That 8th day also has a trumpet blown for the holy gathering.
    It is the Last Trumpet of the year and I believe the Last for the Rapture.

    As Walls put the other 7 in trumpet all herald something, none of which is the Rapture.
    The 7th trumpet heralds the start of the Jesus as King of Kings in the heavens, with Satan cast out.
    It is also the final woe, which has the 7 vials and the rule of the beast for 42 months.

    As I can't find a single scripture supporting pre-trib it is hard to help you. as clearly these 7 trumpets are blown AFTER the supposed pre-trib rapture usually taught as coinciding with Rev 4.
    Thanks FHG, I am trying to understand the view of those where the 7th trumpet is the rapture but it also makes sense if none hold this view, does seem a little out there the more I think about it, , So do you have the rapture of the church after the vials and the gathering of Israel after the vials as the one and the same event?

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I currently hold to the pre trib view,
    Boangry, I don't believe in the rapture all (used to) however I will answer your question.

    Ive always thought relating the last trump to the 7th trumpet was plucking at strings, is there any other reasons why one could associate the last trumpet to the timing of the rapture, so it actually plays a melody?
    Let's reexamine the I thess 4 rapture verse. Interestingly I was always taught this explains the pretrib rapture however it actually denies it.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Let's focus for a minute on the "dead in Christ shall rise first". So if the dead in Christ rise BEFORE those which are alive and remain are taken then the timing of a supposed rapture could ONLY be around the 7th trumpet when the resurrection occurs. AND we do so happen to see a "trump of God" associated with the event. Thus eliminating a possibility of a pre trib rapture however still allowing a post trib.

    The post trib fails as for one sin still requires death, a quickening of our bodies requires death and the term "alive and remain" is actually the state those are in after being resurrected.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Thanks FHG, I am trying to understand the view of those where the 7th trumpet is the rapture but it also makes sense if none hold this view, does seem a little out there the more I think about it, , So do you have the rapture of the church after the vials and the gathering of Israel after the vials as the one and the same event?
    I have the vials occurring DURING the 42 months of the beast's (AC's) rule, which is the 3rd woe which is connected with the 7th trumpet:
    Rev 11:14* The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.*
    Rev 11:15* Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet

    As for those who have the rapture with the 7th trumpet, they basically change the 3rd woe to being the return of Jesus and somehow also have the vials occur at His coming or shortly afterwards.
    I couldn't make it work either, which is why I abandoned the 7th trumpet being the rapture.
    In fact the ONLY reason for considering it, beyond being the last trumpet mentioned in revelation is this phrase:
    Rev 11:15* Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.

    The idea being that this declaration is then the moment of the Rapture.
    However I find this insufficient not only for chronological problems but also for scriptural ones:

    Rev 12:10* And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

    Notice this statement echoes that of Rev 11:15 - it says NOW salvation has come etc. Yet it is in fact the moment when Satan is cast out of heaven.
    We find a similar idea in Jesus' parable of the 10 virgins where they announce:
    Mat 25:6* But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’

    Now IF the Bridegroom was literally there then all 10 virgins would enter in, but in fact this announcement is that the Bridegroom has made ready and is NOW a Bridegroom. The Start of the End as it were.
    All Trumpets herald what will take place afterwards, never what has happened. Yet the language confuses as it states "has become" and "has come". This is why CONTEXT must come before a simplistic approach.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Maybe there is another view to consider. Almost exclusively a "trumpet" was a shrill piercing musical instrument to call people to a gathering. But not so the Trumpets of Revelation Chapter 8. They are to announce plagues upon men. So the Bible shows TWO trumpets; One for calling a gathering of God's people, and Another for announcing the plagues of the great Tribulation. And so, the "last" Trumpet of 1st Corinthians 15:52 is the same "Trumpet of God" in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 calling the dead in Christ to resurrection and then Rapture with the living. But the Trumpets announcing plagues on the rest of men are different Trumpets. To try and fit the seventh Trumpet of Plague in Revelation to the "Last" Trump of God is not warranted. Even the wording is different. If scripture makes a difference - so should we.

    Just as an added thought, in Matthew 24:31 Israel is gathered from the "four winds". Only Israel was dispersed there (Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9; Zech.2:6), and the whole context of Matthew 24:1-31 is Jewish. Now, Israel is gathered AFTER the Church. But they too have a "Trumpet". So even if one wants to but the "last Trump" as the seventh Trumpet, there must be an eighth - and it is then the last one. This strengthens the argument that there are DIFFERENT trumpets.
    It has been speculated that the 8th Trumpet is for the Feast of Booths. But I'm not sure this is not exactly that - speculation. Why would the scripture list 1-7 trumpet calls and then say the LAST is not the 7th?

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I currently hold to the pre trib view, But that doesn't mean I don't revaluate it every now and again. I am just going over the seals, trumpet judgements and vials again, and every time I do I am always reminded of the mid/post? trib view that the seventh trumpet is the last trump, this always seemed contradictory to me, I mean is it a judgment or the rapture, how can it be both?

    Ive always thought relating the last trump to the 7th trumpet was plucking at strings, is there any other reasons why one could associate the last trumpet to the timing of the rapture, so it actually plays a melody?


    I also realised that by dismissing this view previously I don't fully understand the logistics of holding this viewpoint so for a start If you could answer these questions it will help my understanding.


    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?
    The 7 trumpets vision is part of the 7 seals vision. The 7 trumpets are blown during the opening of the 7th seal. The 7th trumpet takes us up to the initiation of the Kingdom of God. So, the 1st half of the book of Revelation ends at the 2nd Coming. Then, more visions follow, including the 7 bowls vision, which provides more details about the end times scenario, including especially the reign of Antichrist for 3.5 years. In Rev 19 we see a final picture of Christ's 2nd Coming, although throughout the book of Revelation there are a number of distinct visions portraying the 2nd Coming in different ways.

    Clearly, the book of Revelation is not always chronological in nature. It simply has a single narrative, expressing several times in several ways the one glorious 2nd Coming of Christ. Yes, the 2nd Coming is portrayed at the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11. And yes, the 7 bowls vision follows this account. But no, it does not mean that the 7 bowls necessarily follow the 7th trumpet. I believe they overlap, and both portray the same glorious event in different ways.

    In the OT trumpets were blown at the fall of Jericho. Just like that event the 7th trumpet announces the fall of the kingdoms of this world to the Kingdom of Christ. This is a conquest of God's Kingdom on earth, led by the 2nd Coming of Christ.

    The getting "seized" and "caught up" to the clouds, indicated in 1 Thes 4, is a sort of parallel with Christ's own ascent into heaven. The reason we go to heaven in the 1st place is in order to go to Christ in heaven so that we may participate with him in his descent to earth. It all takes place in a second, in a twinkling of an eye. So there will be no spending any time in heaven at the "Rapture." It will be an instantaneous transformation into glorious bodies, as we meet and descend with the glorious Christ himself.

    I welcome your honesty and objectivity in considering the Postrib position, which I accepted many years ago. Nobody persuaded me to adopt this position. It came as I memorized the book of 2 Thessalonians. It is all right there.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It has been speculated that the 8th Trumpet is for the Feast of Booths. But I'm not sure this is not exactly that - speculation. Why would the scripture list 1-7 trumpet calls and then say the LAST is not the 7th?
    That's the question. Does scripture say the "last" is the Seventh? The Seventh is ONLY the last of the Trumpets that announce plagues. What about those that call people? What if the trumpet that calls Israel is a different trumpet to that one that calls Christians? How many times are Israel called by a trumpet in the Old Testament? I dare say more than seven times. And if the Church is supposed to be called by the "last" Trump, where was the first trump, or where were the first six if that is the seventh? Let us all, including me, beware of assuming things.

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I currently hold to the pre trib view, But that doesn't mean I don't revaluate it every now and again. I am just going over the seals, trumpet judgements and vials again, and every time I do I am always reminded of the mid/post? trib view that the seventh trumpet is the last trump, this always seemed contradictory to me, I mean is it a judgment or the rapture, how can it be both?

    Ive always thought relating the last trump to the 7th trumpet was plucking at strings, is there any other reasons why one could associate the last trumpet to the timing of the rapture, so it actually plays a melody?


    I also realised that by dismissing this view previously I don't fully understand the logistics of holding this viewpoint so for a start If you could answer these questions it will help my understanding.


    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?
    The 7th trumpet is not the rapture but does involve a gathering... of the children of Israel. I will try to explain without being very long. The judgments in reversing are broken down into three groups.
    1. The Jews, (wholly still in unbelief)
    2. The "false church" (rejected the gospel)
    3. The wicked (kingdom of the beast).

    Scripturally, this [Revelation] equates to:
    1. Seals and trumpets (ch.6-11)
    2. Kingdom (and mark) of beast &false prophet (ch.12-14).
    3. Vials (rejectors of the KOG).

    This can be further described as God's wrath:
    1. Upon the Jews,
    2. Those that rejected the gospel of grace,
    3. Those that rejected the gospel of the kingdom.

    From Romans 1 & 2, we learn that:
    1.Rom 1:16, the gospel (of grace) was preached the Jews first,
    2. Rom 2:24, Jews blaspheme God by rejection of the gospel,
    3.Rom 1:18, God's wrath is (to be) revealed against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness,
    4. Rom 2:5-10, God's wrath will be revealed against the Jew FIRST, then the Gentiles. With wrath upon the Jews, the result will be tribulation upon the whole world. That tribulation (not God's wrath) will manifest the righteous judgment of God upon faithful Christendom... Those "who [are] seeking for glory honor AND immortality. After patiently enduring [patience/hupomone/G5281] our greatest trials, we will be rewarded with eternal life (afterwards at the revelation) .

    Luke 17:29-30 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 shows the the righteous (the church) will receive their reward at the revelation of Jesus. Because the Jews are wholly in unbelief, and that signs are given to those that believe, no signs will precede the day of the Lord-s judgment that firstly comes upon the Jews. Paul says that the DOTL comes like a thief... without warning. The fluidity of revelation is to maintain the continuity of judgment upon the Jews. Because the rapture takes place before completion pig judgment upon the Jews ends (seals & trumpets), Rev 12 backtracks in time to the sign that is given to the church signifying the imminency of the rapture.

    Romans 11 and Ephesians 1-3 sets the order that the Jews would not be gathered until the fullness of time when the last of the Gentiles is brought in. The major point of 2 Thess 2 is the gathering together of both Jews and Gentiles into the one body of Christ, the church. The 2nd major point of 2 Thess 2 is the revelation of the man of sin. Here Paul declares that his purpose (being revealed) is to intentionally deceive (FROM GOD) all those who rejected the gospel and have pleasure in unrighteousness. Does that ring a bell? Rom 1:18 says that God's wrath is revealed from heaven against those who hold the truth (in this case, Christendom) in unrighteousness. The great tribulation, as per Romans 2, has a twofold purpose.
    1. Wrath against the Jews,
    2. Removing the tares from the wheat, producing a great falling away (departure) from the:
    A. Truth of the gospel, by the "church", and
    B. Unrighteousness from Jacob.

    Once the mark of the beast has run its full coarse against the world of the "righteous" unbelievers, then the "fullness of God's wrath(Rev 15:1)", the vials will be poured out on the remaining, wicked, who love darkness, rather than come to the light.

    Tho not explicitly revealed as to the timing, the 7th trumpet signifies the end of God's wrath upon the children of Israel. Once that ungodliness has been removed from Jacob, then will begin the regathering of the children of Israel:

    *[[Eze 39:25]] KJV* Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; [26] After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

    *[[2Th 2:1]] KJV* Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    The day of Christ, is not a single day, but is the period of (the fullness of) time [2 Thess 2 "is present"] in which the Jews will be gathered into the body of Christ.

    *[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. [12] And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. [13] The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. [14] But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. [15] And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

    *[[Isa 27:12]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. [13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I currently hold to the pre trib view, But that doesn't mean I don't revaluate it every now and again. I am just going over the seals, trumpet judgements and vials again, and every time I do I am always reminded of the mid/post? trib view that the seventh trumpet is the last trump, this always seemed contradictory to me, I mean is it a judgment or the rapture, how can it be both?

    Ive always thought relating the last trump to the 7th trumpet was plucking at strings, is there any other reasons why one could associate the last trumpet to the timing of the rapture, so it actually plays a melody?


    I also realized that by dismissing this view previously I don't fully understand the logistics of holding this viewpoint so for a start If you could answer these questions it will help my understanding.


    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?
    This is a little snip from my rapture study

    Revelation 11:15

    The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
    “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

    The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever not for just a 1000 years
    .
    The 24 elders say in Revelation 11:18 say (at the seventh trumpet)

    The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
    The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
    and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
    and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

    The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants and for destroying those who destroy the earth. The judging of the dead happens in Revelation 20:12 after Satan is defeated and cast into hell and after the 1000 years.

    12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books
    .
    The destruction of the ones who destroyed the earth is in Revelation 20:15

    15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 22:12-13

    12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. This is the end after the 1000 years Jesus doesn’t say here that he is coming to save us from the tribulation.

    Paul states that the rapture is at the last trumpet in 1 Corr 15:51-52

    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    The last trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 as 7 is the complete and finished number of God

    Paul also states that the rapture happens at the sound of a trumpet in 1 Thess 4:16-17

    16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    Thus the 7th trumpet happens at the rapture and the final judgement of our world which happens immediately after the rapture

    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    I don't believe that they do why do you think that the bowls happen after? Revelation isn't all in chronological order

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Yes and no one will be saved after

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?

    We meet Jesus in the air and go back to heaven with Him

  13. #13
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    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I currently hold to the pre trib view, But that doesn't mean I don't revaluate it every now and again. I am just going over the seals, trumpet judgements and vials again, and every time I do I am always reminded of the mid/post? trib view that the seventh trumpet is the last trump, this always seemed contradictory to me, I mean is it a judgment or the rapture, how can it be both?

    Ive always thought relating the last trump to the 7th trumpet was plucking at strings, is there any other reasons why one could associate the last trumpet to the timing of the rapture, so it actually plays a melody?


    I also realised that by dismissing this view previously I don't fully understand the logistics of holding this viewpoint so for a start If you could answer these questions it will help my understanding.


    If the seventh angel sounds his trumpet with the impending bowl judgment to follow then am I to correctly conclude the bowl judgment occurs after the rapture?

    Does this remove all believers from earth and will there be anyone saved after this point?

    Do we go up to the clouds and hang out there till we descend or do we ascend to heaven via the clouds?
    Paul taught us things via SHADOWS at times. The truth is he used the Feasts of old because in the Feasts of Leviticus God showed us the whole history of Israel and the Church. LOL, It is true. The "LAST TRUMP" Paul is referring to comes from his understanding of what this means. Notice the verbiage in Rev. 4:1

    Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    The Feasts...........

    Spring Feasts
    1.) Passover ( Jesus fulfilled this, we are the covered in his blood )
    2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread ( Jesus fulfilled this, he was without sin )
    3.) Feast of First-fruits ( Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave/dead )

    The Summer Feast is ALL ALONE on the Calendar unto itself
    4.) The Feast of Weeks (Harvest/Pentecost) We are now in the Harvest or Church Age. Jesus is the sower and we are the body, we are seeking souls to save as we go through this life, Amen. The Church Age is THE HARVEST. The Jewish Harvest always ended by the sounding of a TRUMPET !! The Feast of Trumpets !!

    Fall Feasts

    5.) Feast of Trumpets ( This never did much, it announced that the Feast of weeks (Harvest) was over and that the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacles were nigh at hand.
    6.) Feast of Atonement ( After the Rapture Israel's eyes are opened by God, they must needs ATONE before the 70th week ends. Israel ATONE'S or turns back unto God )
    7.) Feast of Tabernacle ( To Tabernacle means to DWELL with God, so after Israel Repents and turns to God, Jesus will return and Rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years or DWELL WITH Israel which means Tabernacle !!

    So the Rapture happens at the LAST TRUMP.........Jesus calls us home and that verbiage ends the HARVEST or Church Age on earth. Israel is then back on the clock via the 70th week, they must REPENT/Atone, then Jesus will come back and save them from the Beast and his minions and then dwell in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

  14. #14

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    [QUOTE=ross3421;3481161]
    Boangry, I don't believe in the rapture all (used to) however I will answer your question.
    Do you believe some are caught up into the clouds though?



    Let's reexamine the I thess 4 rapture verse. Interestingly I was always taught this explains the pretrib rapture however it actually denies it.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Let's focus for a minute on the "dead in Christ shall rise first". So if the dead in Christ rise BEFORE those which are alive and remain are taken then the timing of a supposed rapture could ONLY be around the 7th trumpet when the resurrection occurs. AND we do so happen to see a "trump of God" associated with the event. Thus eliminating a possibility of a pre trib rapture however still allowing a post trib.
    If the seventh trumpet sounds and is the timing does not the vial judgement follow, and would not this therefore then be mid/latish trib rather than post?

    The post trib fails as for one sin still requires death, a quickening of our bodies requires death and the term "alive and remain" is actually the state those are in after being resurrected.
    So your saying those that are alive and remain means killed and resurrected? or are you saying that those who are alive and remain on earth have not partaken of the resurrection therefore remain?

    Sorry as you can see I am having a hard time following... But ill get there

  15. #15

    Re: The 7th trumpet, rapture please explain

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I have the vials occurring DURING the 42 months of the beast's (AC's) rule, which is the 3rd woe which is connected with the 7th trumpet:
    Rev 11:14* The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.*
    Rev 11:15* Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet

    As for those who have the rapture with the 7th trumpet, they basically change the 3rd woe to being the return of Jesus and somehow also have the vials occur at His coming or shortly afterwards.
    I couldn't make it work either, which is why I abandoned the 7th trumpet being the rapture.
    In fact the ONLY reason for considering it, beyond being the last trumpet mentioned in revelation is this phrase:
    Rev 11:15* Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.

    The idea being that this declaration is then the moment of the Rapture.
    However I find this insufficient not only for chronological problems but also for scriptural ones:

    Rev 12:10* And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

    Notice this statement echoes that of Rev 11:15 - it says NOW salvation has come etc. Yet it is in fact the moment when Satan is cast out of heaven.
    We find a similar idea in Jesus' parable of the 10 virgins where they announce:
    Mat 25:6* But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’

    Now IF the Bridegroom was literally there then all 10 virgins would enter in, but in fact this announcement is that the Bridegroom has made ready and is NOW a Bridegroom. The Start of the End as it were.
    All Trumpets herald what will take place afterwards, never what has happened. Yet the language confuses as it states "has become" and "has come". This is why CONTEXT must come before a simplistic approach.
    I think I understand what your saying, and I take a similar approach, although while agreeing the trumpets herald what is about to take place afterwards I view it as heralding what the vial has in store. Anyway when is the exact timing of the rapture do you see it at the conclusion of the vial judgments and preceding the Lords decent upon the beast and the armies gathered together, Also In the rapture who is raptured is it all the believers?

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