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Thread: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

  1. #46
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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I acknowledged already that the throne and throne room are described as being in a heavenly temple. Sure. Does that make the throne room a temple? No. You are missing one step in your deductive reasoning.
    No steps missing at all.

    I am not talking about ANY Throne Room but about the Throne Room of God.
    The Throne Room of God IS the Heavenly Temple.

    You seem to think because we call it a Throne Room so that is a SEPARATE place to the Temple.
    The point of all these verses is that the Temple IS the Throne Room.
    These are TWO ways of describing ONE place.

    The Throne IS in the Heavenly Temple, the Throne Room IS the place where God resides and rules from and is enthroned and where His glory fills it.
    His Throne Room is brought down out of heaven as it is part of the Jerusalem which is above. The NJ already exists but is presently in Heaven being prepared for us.

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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Your determination to reject anything that doesn't suit you, show a lack of ability to even consider alternative possibilities. This makes discussion impossible.
    Bye bye and have a nice end times.
    I am objective and willing to consider any alternative as long as it's in line with scripture. But I refuse to indulge in innuendo and conjecture foisted as a true interpretation of a specific scripture.

  3. #48
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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The simple question is what IS the Temple in scripture?
    The simple answer is the Temple in Heaven IS the throne room of God.
    The Temple on Earth (made by human hands) is a SHADOW of the temple in Heaven and was the place to go to meet with God, through the intermediary of a priest.

    Now on the NJ the Temple (on earth) is no more - it is gone. There is no more intermediary between Man and God, for God is dwelling on earth. So the statement by John is 100% correct.
    The Temple in Heaven, (which is the Throne Room of God,) is on the earth and is the place where His throne is, and from whence the River of Life flows out. This is confirmed by John in Rev 22.
    This means that Ezekiel 47 matches Rev 22 without any discord.

    Revelation utilises words with more than one meaning and we need to discern which meaning is attributed.
    Revelation is not contradicting its OWN terminology, but rather having more than one meaning for a word.

    We see the same with the word "sea".

    The point is that we KNOW 100% for certain that the Throne Room of God IS on the earth out of which flows the River of Life.

    As for the NJ this comes down at the START of the MK.
    Where will we dwell DURING the MK?
    In the NJ, this is the place God has prepared for us.
    The NHNE STARTS at the start of the MK also.
    You spoiled what rather is a good summation by the false claim you seem incapable of seeing for its flaws, by claiming that the NHNE will start at the beginning of the MK.

  4. #49
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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No steps missing at all.

    I am not talking about ANY Throne Room but about the Throne Room of God.
    The Throne Room of God IS the Heavenly Temple.

    You seem to think because we call it a Throne Room so that is a SEPARATE place to the Temple.
    The point of all these verses is that the Temple IS the Throne Room.
    These are TWO ways of describing ONE place.

    The Throne IS in the Heavenly Temple, the Throne Room IS the place where God resides and rules from and is enthroned and where His glory fills it.
    His Throne Room is brought down out of heaven as it is part of the Jerusalem which is above. The NJ already exists but is presently in Heaven being prepared for us.
    Emphatic statements do not prove your point. the verse does not imply the throne room is the temple. We do both use the bible as our basis, not? Then find a verse

    The throne was in the palace. Therefore the throne room IS the palace??
    The throne was in the temple. Therefore the throne room IS the temple?? Your deductive reasoning is completely missing in this case.

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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Emphatic statements do not prove your point. the verse does not imply the throne room is the temple. We do both use the bible as our basis, not? Then find a verse

    The throne was in the palace. Therefore the throne room IS the palace??
    The throne was in the temple. Therefore the throne room IS the temple?? Your deductive reasoning is completely missing in this case.
    Neither does IGNORING the statements somehow make your refusal to agree valid.
    I have posted numerous verses which show the Throne IS in the Temple in Heaven.
    This is 100% supported. I am being emphatic about it so that you know which part you need to show is incorrect.

    Now we also KNOW 100% that the Throne is in the NJ in the NHNE. This is also NOT in dispute.

    Where you seem to have an issue is that I am claiming that the Temple IS the Temple BECAUSE God has His Throne there.
    This is why I have gone to basics as to what the Temple was, both as a Tent and later as a building built by Solomon.
    The purpose of BOTH was the place for God to meet with Man. His glory filled the Temple (BOTH the Tent and later the Temple)
    1Ki 8:10* And when the priests came out of the Holy Place, a cloud filled the house of the LORD,*
    1Ki 8:11* so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD.

    The Temple was the place where God would dwell:
    1Ki 8:12* Then Solomon said, “The LORD has said that he would dwell in thick darkness.*
    1Ki 8:13* I have indeed built you an exalted house, a place for you to dwell in forever.”*

    So my point is that the Throne of God, the place of meeting God, the place where God dwells IS the Temple of God.
    This is further shown throughout Revelation where we see the Throne being in the Temple in Heaven and where there is the altar etc.
    Now Ezekiel 47 speaks of the River of Life coming out of the Temple in the NJ in the NHNE.
    Rev 22 states the same thing noting it is from the Throne of God in the NJ in the NHNE.

    The Throne of God is the place where God sits and rules and where we can come to Him and where He dwells. Therefore It IS the Temple of God as it fits the definition and was seen as being such.

    Really your ENTIRE issue is that you have latched onto the statement "there is no temple" to mean that there CANNOT be any kind of Temple of any form, and yet you even recognise how John notes a particular form is found in God and the Lamb. Therefore when John says he sees no Temple, he is referring to the previously seen temple that was built by human hands.

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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You spoiled what rather is a good summation by the false claim you seem incapable of seeing for its flaws, by claiming that the NHNE will start at the beginning of the MK.
    As you are yet to provide a reason why the NHNE doesn't start at the start of the MK, I can't help you see it isn't false.
    You have given reasons in the past (which are presently lost) but to which I answered in every case showing your claim was false.

    Isaiah 65 and 66 clearly show the NHNE starts when Jesus returns, and speaks of the MK period.
    Now you try to fudge this by saying it is "general" prophecy without actually explaining what this claim is meant to do with what is stated.

    Isaiah uses very clear and specific language, which Peter and John then BOTH use.
    John even uses verses from Isaiah in speaking of the NJ in the NHNE in Rev 21 which shows the connection John made.
    You seem to have an issue with this, which almost certainly is down to what you hope will happen when the NHNE starts.

    Your problem is further compounded by the fact that you accept that the NJ does come down at the START of the MK.
    However the verses which speak of this are again spoken of in DIRECT connection with the NHNE:
    Rev 21:1* Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.*
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.*

    Notice the order John states
    1) He see the NHNE
    2) He sees the NJ

    However if you wish to fudge the point that the NJ is in the NHNE then I can't help.

  7. #52
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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Neither does IGNORING the statements somehow make your refusal to agree valid.
    I have posted numerous verses which show the Throne IS in the Temple in Heaven.
    This is 100% supported. I am being emphatic about it so that you know which part you need to show is incorrect.
    The throne is in the temple in heaven. True. I do not dispute that and never have. Now how big is that temple? The size of the whole city? The size of a palace? The size of a throne room? I see it as containing the throne room, and possibly other rooms as well. I am trying to understand how you assume the temple IS THE THRONE ROOM, instead of that the temple CONTAINS the throne room? Please explain your logic.


    Where you seem to have an issue is that I am claiming that the Temple IS the Temple BECAUSE God has His Throne there.
    This is why I have gone to basics as to what the Temple was, both as a Tent and later as a building built by Solomon.
    The purpose of BOTH was the place for God to meet with Man. His glory filled the Temple (BOTH the Tent and later the Temple)
    1Ki 8:10* And when the priests came out of the Holy Place, a cloud filled the house of the LORD,*
    1Ki 8:11* so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD.

    The Temple was the place where God would dwell:
    1Ki 8:12* Then Solomon said, “The LORD has said that he would dwell in thick darkness.*
    1Ki 8:13* I have indeed built you an exalted house, a place for you to dwell in forever.”*

    So my point is that the Throne of God, the place of meeting God, the place where God dwells IS the Temple of God.
    This is further shown throughout Revelation where we see the Throne being in the Temple in Heaven and where there is the altar etc.
    Now Ezekiel 47 speaks of the River of Life coming out of the Temple in the NJ in the NHNE.
    Rev 22 states the same thing noting it is from the Throne of God in the NJ in the NHNE.

    The Throne of God is the place where God sits and rules and where we can come to Him and where He dwells. Therefore It IS the Temple of God as it fits the definition and was seen as being such.

    Really your ENTIRE issue is that you have latched onto the statement "there is no temple" to mean that there CANNOT be any kind of Temple of any form, and yet you even recognise how John notes a particular form is found in God and the Lamb. Therefore when John says he sees no Temple, he is referring to the previously seen temple that was built by human hands
    God is omnipresent. Thus the universe and the multiverse are his temple containing his presence. Why then are specific temples mentioned? It is because specific buildings are especially associated with his presence, buildings which are no longer needed in the NJ. The specific building in heaven which contains his throne and throne room does not exist later in the NJ. His throne room lives on, his greater temple does not. I don't see fault in that reasoning.

  8. #53
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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The throne is in the temple in heaven. True. I do not dispute that and never have. Now how big is that temple? The size of the whole city? The size of a palace? The size of a throne room? I see it as containing the throne room, and possibly other rooms as well. I am trying to understand how you assume the temple IS THE THRONE ROOM, instead of that the temple CONTAINS the throne room? Please explain your logic.
    The Temple contains the Throne.
    The Throne we can say is in a room as scripture supports that contention.
    It is also CORRECT to state that the heart, the core, the important part of the Temple IS the Throne room, with the Throne in it.
    Other rooms are irrelevant to the matter at heart.

    God is omnipresent. Thus the universe and the multiverse are his temple containing his presence. Why then are specific temples mentioned? It is because specific buildings are especially associated with his presence, buildings which are no longer needed in the NJ. The specific building in heaven which contains his throne and throne room does not exist later in the NJ. His throne room lives on, his greater temple does not. I don't see fault in that reasoning.
    Nope, the multiverse is NOT His temple.
    His being omnipresent does NOT mean that there is NOT a division of His presence from one place to another. This is why He declares certain places as Holy and one as Most Holy. Further the place where His glory is, is part of this.
    Actually buildings exist in the NJ. The specific building which contains His throne exists later in the NJ. You even state it as such as His throne room lives on.
    You see you are now trying to speak about His greater temple.
    The "greater" temple we could argue IS the NJ for it is the place in which His Throne is placed and in which He dwells. It is also a place barred to those who have not been washed:
    Rev 22:14* Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

    However you are arguing against His Temple which is in heaven at the moment, but John is not speaking of that place, but of the place which was on earth.

    The fault in the reasoning is that you convert what is the heart of the thing to something else which is not. The fault is that then you claim certain things are not, yet which actually you have not shown are not, but simply say "I equate the temple with a greater temple which then isn't seen".
    What this means is that you are IMPOSING a SPECIFIC meaning of Temple, and then claiming an alternative meaning of Temple is invalid.
    What you need to so is recognise that John is NOT referring to the Temple which was in Heaven, and then you can see how your own claim about a "greater temple" is not stated either.

  9. #54
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    Smile Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The Temple contains the Throne.
    The Throne we can say is in a room as scripture supports that contention.
    It is also CORRECT to state that the heart, the core, the important part of the Temple IS the Throne room, with the Throne in it.
    Other rooms are irrelevant to the matter at heart.

    Nope, the multiverse is NOT His temple.
    His being omnipresent does NOT mean that there is NOT a division of His presence from one place to another. This is why He declares certain places as Holy and one as Most Holy. Further the place where His glory is, is part of this.
    Actually buildings exist in the NJ. The specific building which contains His throne exists later in the NJ. You even state it as such as His throne room lives on.
    You see you are now trying to speak about His greater temple.
    The "greater" temple we could argue IS the NJ for it is the place in which His Throne is placed and in which He dwells. It is also a place barred to those who have not been washed:
    Rev 22:14* Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

    However you are arguing against His Temple which is in heaven at the moment, but John is not speaking of that place, but of the place which was on earth.

    The fault in the reasoning is that you convert what is the heart of the thing to something else which is not. The fault is that then you claim certain things are not, yet which actually you have not shown are not, but simply say "I equate the temple with a greater temple which then isn't seen".
    What this means is that you are IMPOSING a SPECIFIC meaning of Temple, and then claiming an alternative meaning of Temple is invalid.
    What you need to so is recognise that John is NOT referring to the Temple which was in Heaven, and then you can see how your own claim about a "greater temple" is not stated either
    Yes temples are specific buildings, unlike the multiverse.

    The bible itself implies an earlier temple in heaven , which is not needed at a later stage. Not me. I am just being true to the wording of the bible. I am going in circles here , time to just agree to disagree

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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes temples are specific buildings, unlike the multiverse.

    The bible itself implies an earlier temple in heaven , which is not needed at a later stage. Not me. I am just being true to the wording of the bible. I am going in circles here , time to just agree to disagree
    No the Bible does NOT imply as earlier temple in heaven which isn't needed. No you are NOT being true to the wording, but to AN interpretation of the wording.
    It states quite unequivocally there IS a temple in heaven, and further that the temple in heaven IS where the throne of God is.
    Further it also states unequivocally that God's throne is SEEN in the NJ and correspondingly that the River of Life flows from it. Ezekiel 47 ALSO notes where the River of Life flows from in the NHNE and this is DIRECTLY seen as being the temple.
    Therefore we have IN scripture clear statements that the River of Life flows from the Temple AND that it flows from the Throne of God AND we also are told that the Throne of God is IN the (Heavenly) Temple.

    Now this simply shows that it is for you to show that Ezekiel was INCORRECT and did NOT see the Temple of God - though I think it is very clear he did.
    Alternatively you have to show that there are TWO NHNEs with TWO Rivers of Life and TWO Trees with healing for the nations etc.

    Now as there is stated one NHNE, one River of Life and one Tree of Life (which coincidentally is in Heaven at the moment, but will be in the NJ when it comes down):
    Rev 2:7* He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

    Then it shows that the ONLY thing you have misunderstood is what John meant when he said there was no temple.

    Another question for you is whether what I claim a possible understanding? If it is, then it is more for you to show why your alternative rendering is a better fit, or whether you simply cling to it out of tradition?
    It is NOT a possible meaning then please demonstrate how it is NOT possible.

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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No the Bible does NOT imply as earlier temple in heaven which isn't needed. No you are NOT being true to the wording, but to AN interpretation of the wording.
    It states quite unequivocally there IS a temple in heaven, and further that the temple in heaven IS where the throne of God is.
    Further it also states unequivocally that God's throne is SEEN in the NJ and correspondingly that the River of Life flows from it. Ezekiel 47 ALSO notes where the River of Life flows from in the NHNE and this is DIRECTLY seen as being the temple.
    Therefore we have IN scripture clear statements that the River of Life flows from the Temple AND that it flows from the Throne of God AND we also are told that the Throne of God is IN the (Heavenly) Temple.

    Now this simply shows that it is for you to show that Ezekiel was INCORRECT and did NOT see the Temple of God - though I think it is very clear he did.
    Alternatively you have to show that there are TWO NHNEs with TWO Rivers of Life and TWO Trees with healing for the nations etc.

    Now as there is stated one NHNE, one River of Life and one Tree of Life (which coincidentally is in Heaven at the moment, but will be in the NJ when it comes down):
    Rev 2:7* He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

    Then it shows that the ONLY thing you have misunderstood is what John meant when he said there was no temple.

    Another question for you is whether what I claim a possible understanding? If it is, then it is more for you to show why your alternative rendering is a better fit, or whether you simply cling to it out of tradition?
    It is NOT a possible meaning then please demonstrate how it is NOT possible.
    Your view is not impossible. My view is better because the temple contains stuff inside it earlier, like God, his throne (assuming he sits on the throne) the ark, then later when there is no temple, God is the temple. Seems like two different situations to me.

    Revelation 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant.

    22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Your view is not impossible. My view is better because the temple contains stuff inside it earlier, like God, his throne (assuming he sits on the throne) the ark, then later when there is no temple, God is the temple. Seems like two different situations to me.

    Revelation 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant.

    22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
    Why is your view better?
    His throne remains, as He continues to reign.
    The ark of the Covenant is not the physical one which was on earth, just as the Temple in Heaven isn't the physical one which was on earth. Are you saying God's covenant won't remain forever?

    Further more isn't Jesus the Temple right now?
    Joh 2:19* Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”*
    Joh 2:20* The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”*
    Joh 2:21* But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

    Aren't we His body right now?

    I think your view is focusing on the EARTHLY Temple where as John is saying focus on God on His throne ruling over the earth.

    I also note you didn't actual deal with my objections as to why your view isn't a valid one.

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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Why is your view better?
    His throne remains, as He continues to reign.
    The ark of the Covenant is not the physical one which was on earth, just as the Temple in Heaven isn't the physical one which was on earth. Are you saying God's covenant won't remain forever?

    Further more isn't Jesus the Temple right now?
    Joh 2:19* Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”*
    Joh 2:20* The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”*
    Joh 2:21* But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

    Aren't we His body right now?

    I think your view is focusing on the EARTHLY Temple where as John is saying focus on God on His throne ruling over the earth.

    I also note you didn't actual deal with my objections as to why your view isn't a valid one.
    My view is better because I take the bible literally and acknowledge two different situations, in 11:19 the temple contains stuff inside it (like God and his throne, assuming he sits on the throne) and the ark. Then later God is the temple and there is no other temple. Seems like two different situations to me, the one has a temple with things inside it, the other has no temple because God Himself is the temple. MY view believes that the temple in heaven which contained items, no longer exists in Rev 21:22.

    Revelation 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant.

    22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

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    Re: Time periods of Daniel and Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    My view is better because I take the bible literally and acknowledge two different situations, in 11:19 the temple contains stuff inside it (like God and his throne, assuming he sits on the throne) and the ark. Then later God is the temple and there is no other temple. Seems like two different situations to me, the one has a temple with things inside it, the other has no temple because God Himself is the temple. MY view believes that the temple in heaven which contained items, no longer exists in Rev 21:22.

    Revelation 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant.

    22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
    I take the Bible literally as well.
    There LITERALLY is NO earthly temple in the NJ.

    Rev 11:19 is the heavenly temple IN CONTRAST with Rev 11:1 and 2 which is the earthly temple. Notice that BOTH are called the Temple of God in Revelation.

    God IS the temple NOW, as scripture declares. It says "I saw no temple, which can be referring back to the temple of Rev 11:1 OR the temple of Rev 11:19.
    Neither is MORE literal, one is earthly and the other is heavenly.

    I get your view, as that is the simplistic view. I am simply highlighting that it is not a better view, and in fact I have given reasons why it is an INCORRECT view.
    Does the ark of the Covenant remain? Well does the Covenant remain and what was the purpose of the Ark?
    Also this is seen at the START of the MK, which we are told contains a temple.

    So I guess this then goes back to whether you believe the NJ is at the START of the MK or not.

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