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Thread: Glorified bodies made of what?

  1. #1
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    Glorified bodies made of what?

    Are our new glorified bodies *not* made out of the dust of the earth? We read that the general resurrection of the righteous will take place at Christ's 2nd Coming, and that both living and departed saints will be "caught up" to the clouds/heaven to receive new glorified bodies. Does this mean our new bodies are not made, like Adam, from the "dust of the earth?" Will our new glorified bodies be made of a different heavenly substance?

  2. #2

    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Are our new glorified bodies *not* made out of the dust of the earth? We read that the general resurrection of the righteous will take place at Christ's 2nd Coming, and that both living and departed saints will be "caught up" to the clouds/heaven to receive new glorified bodies. Does this mean our new bodies are not made, like Adam, from the "dust of the earth?" Will our new glorified bodies be made of a different heavenly substance?
    This is the only verse I could think of.
    Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Are our new glorified bodies *not* made out of the dust of the earth? We read that the general resurrection of the righteous will take place at Christ's 2nd Coming, and that both living and departed saints will be "caught up" to the clouds/heaven to receive new glorified bodies. Does this mean our new bodies are not made, like Adam, from the "dust of the earth?" Will our new glorified bodies be made of a different heavenly substance?
    Just to be precise, we Christians receive our new bodies BEFORE the Rapture. According to 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 we receive our new bodies at resurrection, and a few seconds later the LIVING will be changed. As to what bodies we have, the pattern is our Lord Jesus Himself. He was different so that His followers did not immediately recognize Him. But He had His wounds. And He plainly stated that He was "flesh and bones" (Lk.24:39). It would seem from various scriptures that we will not be much different but the ORIGIN of the new body is not the womb. What is consoling is that we will have a glorious body like Christ's if we were Baptized (Rom.6:4; Phil.3:21). I guess all things that humiliate us will be gone. What might also be pertinent is that about 65 years after His death and resurrection, in Revelation Chapter 1, the Lord has white hair. But His demeanor is of a young vital man.

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    This comes to mind....,

    Jn 20
    24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

    26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”

    27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

    Even though nobody recognized him, he was walking around in the body he was born with.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Cool Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    This comes to mind....,

    Jn 20
    24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

    26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”

    27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

    Even though nobody recognized him, he was walking around in the body he was born with.
    What is a spiritual body? I believe it is spirit. Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. I think Jesus' body might have been for recognition purposes. Also, to fulfill the prophecy that His body would not see corruption: Psalms 16:10: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." In any case I cannot see Jesus going for all eternity with those holes in His body. He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two angels (cherubim?) in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. He is God, He can do anything he wants. Spirits can walk through walls and doors. God does not need a body. Although Christ said He would eat and drink with us in the kingdom, so we will have this capacity also. If we kept a body all the time, we would have to eat and drink and breath oxygen. But life resides in the spirit.

    John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

    2 Cor. 3:17,18: “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” This suggests that we will be made into the sons of God, with our makeup similar. Thus, we will be spirits.

    Rev. 19:11,12 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

    Oh! This definitely sounds like He looks differently now.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Just to be precise, we Christians receive our new bodies BEFORE the Rapture. According to 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 we receive our new bodies at resurrection, and a few seconds later the LIVING will be changed. As to what bodies we have, the pattern is our Lord Jesus Himself. He was different so that His followers did not immediately recognize Him. But He had His wounds. And He plainly stated that He was "flesh and bones" (Lk.24:39). It would seem from various scriptures that we will not be much different but the ORIGIN of the new body is not the womb. What is consoling is that we will have a glorious body like Christ's if we were Baptized (Rom.6:4; Phil.3:21). I guess all things that humiliate us will be gone. What might also be pertinent is that about 65 years after His death and resurrection, in Revelation Chapter 1, the Lord has white hair. But His demeanor is of a young vital man.
    Sorry, I don't subscribe to that. I believe we are resurrected at the trumpet blast, announcing Christ's return. That means our spirits are activated, and immediately enter into a new physical existence in heaven, prepared to return to earth with Christ. I can't possibly imagine this, since we are told it takes place in a second of time. But to say we are resurrected in old bodies 1st isn't what I believe. That would be more like Lazarus rising from the tomb. And that would require that bodies only recently have died, so that the physical body is still in the tomb.

    In reality the dead saints have over the many thousands of years passed away into elements scattered into many places, and can no longer be considered bodies at all that can be actually raised. I have to believe that brand new bodies are constructed that bear no connection to the previous bodies except that they will house the same spirits. I just don't know what the new bodies will consist of, or look like.

    One thing I can say is that Jesus was raised from the dead in his *old body,* and did not yet acquire his new glorified body until ascending into heaven. That's why I believe Christians have to ascend into heaven to received new glorified bodies themselves, to get it the same way Jesus did, particularly because that's where Jesus presently is.

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sorry, I don't subscribe to that. I believe we are resurrected at the trumpet blast, announcing Christ's return. That means our spirits are activated, and immediately enter into a new physical existence in heaven, prepared to return to earth with Christ. I can't possibly imagine this, since we are told it takes place in a second of time. But to say we are resurrected in old bodies 1st isn't what I believe. That would be more like Lazarus rising from the tomb. And that would require that bodies only recently have died, so that the physical body is still in the tomb.

    In reality the dead saints have over the many thousands of years passed away into elements scattered into many places, and can no longer be considered bodies at all that can be actually raised. I have to believe that brand new bodies are constructed that bear no connection to the previous bodies except that they will house the same spirits. I just don't know what the new bodies will consist of, or look like.

    One thing I can say is that Jesus was raised from the dead in his *old body,* and did not yet acquire his new glorified body until ascending into heaven. That's why I believe Christians have to ascend into heaven to received new glorified bodies themselves, to get it the same way Jesus did, particularly because that's where Jesus presently is.
    As an overall principle, Colossians 1:18 is valid; "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in ALL things he might have the preeminence." That means that if our Lord goes through one process, and some other men go through another, our Lord then does not have preeminence in ALL things. So, it would do well to expect any, and ALL resurrections to be like the Lord's.

    Your thesis of receiving a body in heaven defies scripture. All resurrection bodies come out of the grave.
    • In the case of Israel it is, in Ezekiel 37:12; "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."
    • In the case of the Church it is in Matthew 27:52-53; "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
    • In the case of ALL men it is in John 5:28; "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,"
    • In John 12:17; "The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record", Lazarus' resurrection body came out of the grave - not heaven

    Your thesis that our Lord Jesus only received His glorified body when He ascended to heaven needs scripture my friend.

    Your appreciation that God is unable to gather the elements and scattered molecules of a long dead man is insulting to say the least. You worship a very restricted God. Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord who spoke 2 trillion galaxies into existence in the observable universe?
    Genesis 18:14; "Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."
    Jeremiah 32:17; "Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:"
    Jeremiah 32:27; "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?"

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    It would do us all well if we appreciated that the Councils of God are immutable. We are subjects of the ALL-mighty. If God's stated purpose was to make man out of the elements of the dust, there is no force in the universe that can change this. Whether He fashions this body of man in the womb, or fashions the new body in heaven, there is no evidence of a change of plan. And certainly, Lucifer and his hoards of angels, powerful as they seem to us, are NOTHING in the sight of God. To define, explain and understand the resurrected body, we have a FORERUNNER - Jesus Christ. If He has preeminence in resurrection, then that is the pattern. He has His wounds on resurrection night, He has His wounds a week later when Thomas must thrust his hands and fingers into them, and as He bursts forth from the clouds 2,000 years later, the Jews will see "He whom they PIERCED" (Zechariah 12:10, John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7)!

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    There isn't much said about our resurrection bodies in Scripture, but will it be flesh as we have now? John 3:13 says « And no man hath ascended up to heaven ... », yet Elijah went up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11). Luke 24:39 says « ... for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me (Christ) have », in 1 Cor. 15:45 « ... the last Adam (Christ) was made a quickening spirit ».

    In 1 Cor. 15 Paul explains this: « But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly ».

    This tells us a lot, first that there is a difference in the bodies of flesh — man, beast, fish, bird —, flesh of man is more glorious then that of animals. But also that there are spiritual bodies and they are not all of the same glory, like the sun has another glory then that of the moon or the stars. So again in 1 Cor. 15 it shows not all have the same resurrection body, but that there are groups. Who denies this, can scratch 1 Cor. 15 from his bible.

    What is important is to figure out where we are on the road of salvation, which unfortunately lacks most bible students, yet Paul says « ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling ». What is there to work out? We're saved right? Are we? And to what? To be a « moon », a « sun » or a « star »?

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    There isn't much said about our resurrection bodies in Scripture, but will it be flesh as we have now? John 3:13 says « And no man hath ascended up to heaven ... », yet Elijah went up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11). Luke 24:39 says « ... for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me (Christ) have », in 1 Cor. 15:45 « ... the last Adam (Christ) was made a quickening spirit ».

    In 1 Cor. 15 Paul explains this: « But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly ».

    This tells us a lot, first that there is a difference in the bodies of flesh — man, beast, fish, bird —, flesh of man is more glorious then that of animals. But also that there are spiritual bodies and they are not all of the same glory, like the sun has another glory then that of the moon or the stars. So again in 1 Cor. 15 it shows not all have the same resurrection body, but that there are groups. Who denies this, can scratch 1 Cor. 15 from his bible.

    What is important is to figure out where we are on the road of salvation, which unfortunately lacks most bible students, yet Paul says « ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling ». What is there to work out? We're saved right? Are we? And to what? To be a « moon », a « sun » or a « star »?

    Aristarkos
    The importance of the resurrection has suffered somewhat mainly because contemporary Christianity has a doctrine that when one dies, one goes to heaven. If this is true then besides God's plan in Genesis 1:26-28 being trashed, God's promises to Abraham concerning the Land and the Church are made null and void. It is this last one I will expand on.

    When our Lord Jesus made man, part of the man was a physical Body. Since the plan with man was that he would be in the image and likeness of God, the body of such a man is the means of physically displaying God in a physical creation. But even more than this, the Church has been chosen, "... that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God" ( Eph.3:10), and "that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:7). And the crucial fact of the Church - Christ's Body, is; "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? ... ." (1st Corinthians 6:15). So God's glory and expression in the physical creation is intimately tied up with our BODIES.

    So, in revealing His Church, His Body, for the first time in Matthew 16, the Lord addresses DEATH as one of the three main issues of the Church. In Matthew 16:18-19 our Lord proposes;

    18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HADES shall not prevail against it.
    19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

    That is, (1) the Lord is commissioned by God to build this Church, (2) The Church will have government to maintain order by expelling wayward Christians who would then be expelled from the coming Millennial Kingdom, and (3) because death causes the body - the physical component of this Church - to disintegrate, God will institute a counter measure. Hades (not hell), the place of the souls of dead men, will not always have its gates locked. Dead men will eventually be released - the main purpose being to build God's Church.

    Thus, without going into the utter glory of a dead man living again, we can see that the resurrection is massively important. On it rests God's glory, God's testimony, God's honor, God's expression in the physical creature, God's House on earth and Christ's BRIDE.

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The importance of the resurrection has suffered somewhat mainly because contemporary Christianity has a doctrine that when one dies, one goes to heaven. If this is true then besides God's plan in Genesis 1:26-28 being trashed, God's promises to Abraham concerning the Land and the Church are made null and void. It is this last one I will expand on.

    When our Lord Jesus made man, part of the man was a physical Body. Since the plan with man was that he would be in the image and likeness of God, the body of such a man is the means of physically displaying God in a physical creation. But even more than this, the Church has been chosen, "... that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God" ( Eph.3:10), and "that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:7). And the crucial fact of the Church - Christ's Body, is; "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? ... ." (1st Corinthians 6:15). So God's glory and expression in the physical creation is intimately tied up with our BODIES.

    So, in revealing His Church, His Body, for the first time in Matthew 16, the Lord addresses DEATH as one of the three main issues of the Church. In Matthew 16:18-19 our Lord proposes;

    18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HADES shall not prevail against it.
    19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

    That is, (1) the Lord is commissioned by God to build this Church, (2) The Church will have government to maintain order by expelling wayward Christians who would then be expelled from the coming Millennial Kingdom, and (3) because death causes the body - the physical component of this Church - to disintegrate, God will institute a counter measure. Hades (not hell), the place of the souls of dead men, will not always have its gates locked. Dead men will eventually be released - the main purpose being to build God's Church.

    Thus, without going into the utter glory of a dead man living again, we can see that the resurrection is massively important. On it rests God's glory, God's testimony, God's honor, God's expression in the physical creature, God's House on earth and Christ's BRIDE.
    You are correct that the resurrection is neglected, probably by the idea the N.T. brought something entirely new. There are plenty of Scriptures that say the opposite, like for example Mat. 5:18 that says « ... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law ... », Paul who says in 1 Thess. 4:15 « For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord ... » and in Rom. 15:8 « ... Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers ».

    The resurrection of the dead is interwoven through Scripture and there are different resurrections as there are different churches or groups of believers. This is not really seen, and probably the reason you believe Israel is done with as a nation. This immediately is putting the finger on the sore spot, one misunderstanding has become truth after a generation and no one wants to here about it, let alone after 2000 years or a 100 generations and there isn't one misunderstanding, there are plenty. Like aions, dispensations, the resurrection... So I try to make people think about what is written, not what is assumed, or spoon fed by tradition.

    I'll show you which resurrections I see in Scripture, so you have something to ponder. First the resurrection isn't always named as such, yet obviously meant as we see in Gen. 13:15 « For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever ».This is what God said to Abraham, yet he died. For this promise to become reality Abraham has to be resurrected. With this in mind the words of the Lord in Luke 20:37 make sense « Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ». Second we have to understand the « for ever » in Gen. 13:15 as well, so let's make a side jump.

    The Hebrew has for « for ever » in Gen. 13:15 « ad olam », the word « ad » is a duration so it says for the duration of the olam (or aion). This is obvious not the aion in which Satan is god, hence the current (2 Cor. 4:4) but the one to come which the Lord mentions in Mat. 12:32. This example alone should be enough to let go of the never begun, never ending eternity most of Christianity teaches. I'll show you another example. In Psa. 10:16 is says that « ... the Lord (YHWH) is King for ever and ever ... », « olam va ad » in the aion and longer. The big conflict most have with using for ever or eternity is 1 Cor. 15:28 which says « ... the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all ». So the O.T. teaches that YHWH (this is Christ) is King for ever and Paul says the Son (YHWH or Christ) is subjected Himself, therefore is not King for ever. By using the inspired words, there is no conflict and no dishonoring of God. After all the greatest honor is for the formed God (Isa. 43:10) to become God's image again by subjecting Himself to the Father.

    There is no resurrection of the flesh, 1 Cor. 15:36 and further makes this clear with the example of the grain, this dies and something new occurs, this on a side note.

    1. The better of 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15
    2. The first (on the last day of this aion, John 11:24)
    3. The second (after the millennium Rev. 20:11 — 13)
    4. The out-resurrection out of the dead (Php. 3:11 Greek text)

    This is already proof there are groups, which unfortunately is also denied. Of course one could write pages about each resurrection, I don't do that. As you see, one comes from the resurrection to aions, to the promise made to Abraham, to Israel, to... everything is connected.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    You are correct that the resurrection is neglected, probably by the idea the N.T. brought something entirely new. There are plenty of Scriptures that say the opposite, like for example Mat. 5:18 that says « ... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law ... », Paul who says in 1 Thess. 4:15 « For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord ... » and in Rom. 15:8 « ... Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers ».

    The resurrection of the dead is interwoven through Scripture and there are different resurrections as there are different churches or groups of believers. This is not really seen, and probably the reason you believe Israel is done with as a nation. This immediately is putting the finger on the sore spot, one misunderstanding has become truth after a generation and no one wants to here about it, let alone after 2000 years or a 100 generations and there isn't one misunderstanding, there are plenty. Like aions, dispensations, the resurrection... So I try to make people think about what is written, not what is assumed, or spoon fed by tradition.

    I'll show you which resurrections I see in Scripture, so you have something to ponder. First the resurrection isn't always named as such, yet obviously meant as we see in Gen. 13:15 « For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever ».This is what God said to Abraham, yet he died. For this promise to become reality Abraham has to be resurrected. With this in mind the words of the Lord in Luke 20:37 make sense « Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ». Second we have to understand the « for ever » in Gen. 13:15 as well, so let's make a side jump.

    The Hebrew has for « for ever » in Gen. 13:15 « ad olam », the word « ad » is a duration so it says for the duration of the olam (or aion). This is obvious not the aion in which Satan is god, hence the current (2 Cor. 4:4) but the one to come which the Lord mentions in Mat. 12:32. This example alone should be enough to let go of the never begun, never ending eternity most of Christianity teaches. I'll show you another example. In Psa. 10:16 is says that « ... the Lord (YHWH) is King for ever and ever ... », « olam va ad » in the aion and longer. The big conflict most have with using for ever or eternity is 1 Cor. 15:28 which says « ... the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all ». So the O.T. teaches that YHWH (this is Christ) is King for ever and Paul says the Son (YHWH or Christ) is subjected Himself, therefore is not King for ever. By using the inspired words, there is no conflict and no dishonoring of God. After all the greatest honor is for the formed God (Isa. 43:10) to become God's image again by subjecting Himself to the Father.

    There is no resurrection of the flesh, 1 Cor. 15:36 and further makes this clear with the example of the grain, this dies and something new occurs, this on a side note.

    1. The better of 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15
    2. The first (on the last day of this aion, John 11:24)
    3. The second (after the millennium Rev. 20:11 — 13)
    4. The out-resurrection out of the dead (Php. 3:11 Greek text)

    This is already proof there are groups, which unfortunately is also denied. Of course one could write pages about each resurrection, I don't do that. As you see, one comes from the resurrection to aions, to the promise made to Abraham, to Israel, to... everything is connected.

    Aristarkos
    I have read your reply and am perplexed. You quoted me, but never addressed one point I made. Then, despite literally hundreds of statements since I joined here in 2011 that Israel will be restored, you maintain, quote;

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    This is not really seen, and probably the reason you believe Israel is done with as a nation
    It was probably an oversight, but could be construed as a serious misrepresentation.

    Next, I did not even mention the multiple resurrections (although I agree with that statement).

    Next, I did not address the "ages" in respect of resurrection, but in respect of the Church shewing, "... in the ages to come ... the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

    Then, you declare categorically that, "There is no resurrection of the flesh". But our Lord Jesus pointedly said that He was "flesh" in Luke 24:39. "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    You quote 1st Corinthians 15:36 onward, SAYING IT MAKES YOUR STATEMENT CLEAR!. But what does it say? It NEVER SAYS THAT THAT THERE IS NO FLESH. It says the opposite. Let us read it:

    37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."


    In verse 37 it says that the BODY which is sown is not the BODY that will emerge from the ground. In what way? Not that it is not flesh, but in that it is not corrupted!
    Verse 38 confirms Genesis 1:11-12. Any seed will bring forth itself or its specie. Thus, a body of flesh dead and buried will produce a Body of flesh. All that has happened is that the LAW that the flesh was under will be gone (1st Cor.7:39). The flesh is under the Law of sin and death (Romans 7:21 to 8:2). Physical death ends that Law (Rom.6:7). So, in resurrection the BODY can rise free of the sinful nature.
    Verse 39 describes that resurrected BODY and calls it "FLESH"!
    Then Verse 40 does NOT discuss the SUBSTANCE of the resurrected BODY (flesh), but to the GLORY of the different bodies in resurrection. The matter of flesh is settled. It stays flesh but flesh WITHOUT the sin nature. Since the Church is of the Heavenly Calling (Heb.3:1) and Born from Above in John 3:3-5 (lit. Gk.), in resurrection it will have "Celestial GLORY".
    In Verse 41 Some seed of Abraham would be as "STARS". But Israel, "sand of the sea shore" will have "TERRESTRIAL GLORY" in resurrection. "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Matt.13:43). This is the Church. The sun is heavenly and its glory is greater than the those who are the moon and rule the night. The sun's glory is INTRINSIC, while the moon's glory is REFLECTED. And different individual "stars" will show differing glory. All are heavenly, but the "GLORY" is different. And what is GLORY? In the Greek it is "doxah" which means, "to make apparent". So our Lord Jesus hangs on the cross as a criminal. It is not "apparent" that He is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin and sins of the world. But three days later He is ALIVE! Since sin is the wages of death, if one little sin remained unaccounted for, He could not be raised from the dead. So the resurrection of our Lord "makes apparent" that all sin and sins are put away. Thus, scripture says that He "is GLORIFIED". We Christians are born again, we possess the divine life, we are sons of God, we are present Priests and future kings. But if you look at us, it is NOT APPARENT. But in the resurrection we receive "GLORY". It suddenly "becomes apparent" who and what we are!

    My posting was to show how critical resurrection is to God's plan - not do maintain certain qualities of it.

  13. #13
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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I have read your reply and am perplexed. You quoted me, but never addressed one point I made. Then, despite literally hundreds of statements since I joined here in 2011 that Israel will be restored, you maintain, quote;

    It was probably an oversight, but could be construed as a serious misrepresentation.
    It probably was, I read your statement about « ALL Israel is in UNBELIEF », and that stuck because it is not true, I apologize for the error.

    Next, I did not even mention the multiple resurrections (although I agree with that statement).

    Next, I did not address the "ages" in respect of resurrection, but in respect of the Church shewing, "... in the ages to come ... the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

    Then, you declare categorically that, "There is no resurrection of the flesh". But our Lord Jesus pointedly said that He was "flesh" in Luke 24:39. "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    You quote 1st Corinthians 15:36 onward, SAYING IT MAKES YOUR STATEMENT CLEAR!. But what does it say? It NEVER SAYS THAT THAT THERE IS NO FLESH. It says the opposite. Let us read it:

    37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."


    In verse 37 it says that the BODY which is sown is not the BODY that will emerge from the ground. In what way? Not that it is not flesh, but in that it is not corrupted!
    Verse 38 confirms Genesis 1:11-12. Any seed will bring forth itself or its specie. Thus, a body of flesh dead and buried will produce a Body of flesh. All that has happened is that the LAW that the flesh was under will be gone (1st Cor.7:39). The flesh is under the Law of sin and death (Romans 7:21 to 8:2). Physical death ends that Law (Rom.6:7). So, in resurrection the BODY can rise free of the sinful nature.
    Verse 39 describes that resurrected BODY and calls it "FLESH"!
    Then Verse 40 does NOT discuss the SUBSTANCE of the resurrected BODY (flesh), but to the GLORY of the different bodies in resurrection. The matter of flesh is settled. It stays flesh but flesh WITHOUT the sin nature. Since the Church is of the Heavenly Calling (Heb.3:1) and Born from Above in John 3:3-5 (lit. Gk.), in resurrection it will have "Celestial GLORY".
    In Verse 41 Some seed of Abraham would be as "STARS". But Israel, "sand of the sea shore" will have "TERRESTRIAL GLORY" in resurrection. "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Matt.13:43). This is the Church. The sun is heavenly and its glory is greater than the those who are the moon and rule the night. The sun's glory is INTRINSIC, while the moon's glory is REFLECTED. And different individual "stars" will show differing glory. All are heavenly, but the "GLORY" is different. And what is GLORY? In the Greek it is "doxah" which means, "to make apparent". So our Lord Jesus hangs on the cross as a criminal. It is not "apparent" that He is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin and sins of the world. But three days later He is ALIVE! Since sin is the wages of death, if one little sin remained unaccounted for, He could not be raised from the dead. So the resurrection of our Lord "makes apparent" that all sin and sins are put away. Thus, scripture says that He "is GLORIFIED". We Christians are born again, we possess the divine life, we are sons of God, we are present Priests and future kings. But if you look at us, it is NOT APPARENT. But in the resurrection we receive "GLORY". It suddenly "becomes apparent" who and what we are!

    My posting was to show how critical resurrection is to God's plan - not do maintain certain qualities of it.
    Are angels flesh? Then what about the Lords remark in Luke 20:36? So we are not resurrected in the flesh but the flesh is changed in spiritual way of living unknown to us. After all how can a body of flesh survive outside it's natural environment, i.e. earth? V. 36 says « All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds », that of angels is not mentioned here. Why not? V. 36 says « Thou senseless ones, that which thou sowest is not made alive, if not it die », is the seed the plant? No, it undergoes a changing, it is not just the old flesh being made alive again, it is the old flesh changed into something new.

    The resurrection of the dead is a renewal of the body in a moment. The in the grave preserved human being, that in the mother's womb needed nine months to become a child, and then another 20 years to become an adult, now grows into the body that it has to become. So the resurrection is like a very fast growth process. At least those who are « naked ». In 1 Cor. 15:36 and on, Paul gives us some insight into this. He speaks of the grain that dies in the earth and from which, however, a new body originates. The grain, the seed dies and does not resurface as such. There is therefore no resurrection of the flesh. There is of the being, because the grain revives in higher form in halm and ear. So is the resurrection of the dead. The dead receive a new body in the resurrection.

    I've said it before, I see two seeds of Abraham, the sand of the seashore is Israel, and the stars of Heaven are the sons Paul teaches us about and they are from before the formation of Israel, so basically Gentiles, for you they are one if I understand you correct.

    I wasn't criticizing you Walls, I was telling you how I see things, how everything is connected and one gets from one to the other and gave some examples, you see them differently and that is OK.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    It probably was, I read your statement about « ALL Israel is in UNBELIEF », and that stuck because it is not true, I apologize for the error.



    Are angels flesh? Then what about the Lords remark in Luke 20:36? So we are not resurrected in the flesh but the flesh is changed in spiritual way of living unknown to us. After all how can a body of flesh survive outside it's natural environment, i.e. earth? V. 36 says « All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds », that of angels is not mentioned here. Why not? V. 36 says « Thou senseless ones, that which thou sowest is not made alive, if not it die », is the seed the plant? No, it undergoes a changing, it is not just the old flesh being made alive again, it is the old flesh changed into something new.

    The resurrection of the dead is a renewal of the body in a moment. The in the grave preserved human being, that in the mother's womb needed nine months to become a child, and then another 20 years to become an adult, now grows into the body that it has to become. So the resurrection is like a very fast growth process. At least those who are « naked ». In 1 Cor. 15:36 and on, Paul gives us some insight into this. He speaks of the grain that dies in the earth and from which, however, a new body originates. The grain, the seed dies and does not resurface as such. There is therefore no resurrection of the flesh. There is of the being, because the grain revives in higher form in halm and ear. So is the resurrection of the dead. The dead receive a new body in the resurrection.

    I've said it before, I see two seeds of Abraham, the sand of the seashore is Israel, and the stars of Heaven are the sons Paul teaches us about and they are from before the formation of Israel, so basically Gentiles, for you they are one if I understand you correct.

    I wasn't criticizing you Walls, I was telling you how I see things, how everything is connected and one gets from one to the other and gave some examples, you see them differently and that is OK.

    Aristarkos
    Thank you for your gracious answer. Again I think we have put forward our understanding and given the others who are interested, something to think about. I will only answer one thing, and it is of general interest more than part of this theme.

    When the Bible says something is "Spiritual", it can mean one of TWO things:
    1. It it SPIRIT in SUBSTANCE. God is a Spirit, and angels are spirits (Jn.4:24; Ps.104:4; Heb.1:7). Men are not spirits. They are "SOULS" (Gen.2:7, 12:5, etc.)
    2. It has its ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit. This is seen in the Gifts given for the building of the Church. It can also be seen in the Church itself. On resurrection day our Lord Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit INTO His disciples and they became the House of God - a SPIRITUAL HOUSE (1st Pet.2:5). It had its ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit.

    So when 1st Corinthians 15:44-47 reads ...

    44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."


    ... we have to decide if the resurrection body of any man is spirit in SUBSTANCE, or if it is spirit in ORIGIN. The text will tell us.
    Verse 44 talks of "sown". That is its ORIGIN. And it further contrasts NATURE that produced it to the Holy SPIRIT who resurrects it (Rom.8:11)
    Verse 45 talks of how it was "MADE".
    Verse 47 talks of WHERE the origin was - "OF" the earth for our fallen bodies, and WHERE Christ's resurrection Body is "OF".

    So the resurrection body of men are "spiritual" because their ORIGIN is the Holy Spirit.

  15. #15
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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your gracious answer. Again I think we have put forward our understanding and given the others who are interested, something to think about. I will only answer one thing, and it is of general interest more than part of this theme.

    When the Bible says something is "Spiritual", it can mean one of TWO things:
    1. It it SPIRIT in SUBSTANCE. God is a Spirit, and angels are spirits (Jn.4:24; Ps.104:4; Heb.1:7). Men are not spirits. They are "SOULS" (Gen.2:7, 12:5, etc.)
    2. It has its ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit. This is seen in the Gifts given for the building of the Church. It can also be seen in the Church itself. On resurrection day our Lord Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit INTO His disciples and they became the House of God - a SPIRITUAL HOUSE (1st Pet.2:5). It had its ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit.

    So when 1st Corinthians 15:44-47 reads ...

    44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."


    ... we have to decide if the resurrection body of any man is spirit in SUBSTANCE, or if it is spirit in ORIGIN. The text will tell us.
    Verse 44 talks of "sown". That is its ORIGIN. And it further contrasts NATURE that produced it to the Holy SPIRIT who resurrects it (Rom.8:11)
    Verse 45 talks of how it was "MADE".
    Verse 47 talks of WHERE the origin was - "OF" the earth for our fallen bodies, and WHERE Christ's resurrection Body is "OF".

    So the resurrection body of men are "spiritual" because their ORIGIN is the Holy Spirit.
    I've read your reply Walls, thank you for the exchange, God bless.

    Aristarkos

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