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Thread: Glorified bodies made of what?

  1. #16
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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    As an overall principle, Colossians 1:18 is valid; "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in ALL things he might have the preeminence." That means that if our Lord goes through one process, and some other men go through another, our Lord then does not have preeminence in ALL things. So, it would do well to expect any, and ALL resurrections to be like the Lord's.

    Your thesis of receiving a body in heaven defies scripture. All resurrection bodies come out of the grave.
    • In the case of Israel it is, in Ezekiel 37:12; "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."
    • In the case of the Church it is in Matthew 27:52-53; "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
    • In the case of ALL men it is in John 5:28; "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,"
    • In John 12:17; "The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record", Lazarus' resurrection body came out of the grave - not heaven

    Your thesis that our Lord Jesus only received His glorified body when He ascended to heaven needs scripture my friend.

    Your appreciation that God is unable to gather the elements and scattered molecules of a long dead man is insulting to say the least. You worship a very restricted God. Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord who spoke 2 trillion galaxies into existence in the observable universe?
    Genesis 18:14; "Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."
    Jeremiah 32:17; "Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:"
    Jeremiah 32:27; "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?"
    It is absurd to think atoms and molecules are regathered, since they are exchanged and can belong to numerous different bodies over the eons. To rise up from the tomb is a metaphorical way of saying someone reemerges from death. It doesn't have to pinpoint a specific location from which to emerge.

    The idea of Christ ascending to heaven to receive a new glorified body is indeed Scriptural. Jesus told a woman after his resurrection not to detain him, since he had to ascend to God. This is an argument for glorification *in heaven.*

    I do not believe that all Christians and saints have to reemerge in their old bodies, as Jesus did. We are told we are to receive new glorified bodies, unlike our previous bodies. When Jesus rose up in his old body, it was to show that his life is indestructible--unlike ours. So we are different from him, even though some saints did rise from the dead in their old bodies, such as Lazarus.

    What all saints must share with Christ, however, is the need to ascend to heaven to receive our new glorified bodies *from him!* If he had to do it, we most certainly must as well!

  2. #17
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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It is absurd to think atoms and molecules are regathered, since they are exchanged and can belong to numerous different bodies over the eons. To rise up from the tomb is a metaphorical way of saying someone reemerges from death. It doesn't have to pinpoint a specific location from which to emerge.
    If 2nd Corinthians 5:1 says the body is "Dissolved" in death. Genesis 3:19 says it returns to the elements. How God keeps track of the atomic structure of a man's body implied in that he is the CREATOR and MAKER of all things. I find it absurd that a man who believes in God, and who observes the intricacy of the universe, cannot understand the God is ALL-mighty. To keep track of atoms and molecules must be one of the easiest things for our Great God.

    Every student of scripture who wants to force his/her theory turns to the "metaphorical". It gives the wannabe student full license to prove whatever he/she wants to. It is a swamp of "private interpretation". Those who take the Bible literally until hard evidence of the allegorical makes the literal absurd, are very restricted, but they come out with the true meaning. Lazarus came out of the same place he was buried. David is still in the same place he was buried. Our Lord Jesus came out of the same place He was buried. No doubt Abraham will rise from the field of Machpelah. He paid for it. A person does NOT reemerge from death by metaphorically rising from any old tomb. A person is RESURRECTED when the SOUL rises from Hades in the heart of the earth, the SPIRIT which God has kept for this day DESCENDS, and both these meet and ENTER the newly constructed Body (1st Ki.17:22; Lk.8:55). For EVERY Person, starting with our Lord Jesus Himself, resurrection life starts at the scene of the burial place. On a lighter and conciliatory note, you might be able to eek out a few exceptions like Jezebel who must be found from the feces of dogs. But then again, if you have ever observed dog's business over a few weeks, you will have noticed how quickly it returns to the elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The idea of Christ ascending to heaven to receive a new glorified body is indeed Scriptural. Jesus told a woman after his resurrection not to detain him, since he had to ascend to God. This is an argument for glorification *in heaven.*
    Brother, I recommend you quote scriptures for your ideas.
    1. Our Lord Jesus was already in a body that could be touched when He met the women
    2. Our Lord Jesus was already in a body that could speak when He met the women
    3. Our Lord Jesus was already in a body that could be seen by the women
    4. Our Lord Jesus did not ask the women not to "detain him". He asked them not to "TOUCH" Him. His Father has rights to the firstfruits and our Lord was "the firstfruits of them that slept".
    5. Resurrection is ALWAYS for the BODY. 1st Corinthians 15:35; "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" "UP" is the direction and "comes" means they already have this body.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I do not believe that all Christians and saints have to reemerge in their old bodies, as Jesus did. We are told we are to receive new glorified bodies, unlike our previous bodies. When Jesus rose up in his old body, it was to show that his life is indestructible--unlike ours. So we are different from him, even though some saints did rise from the dead in their old bodies, such as Lazarus.
    The do not reemerge with their old bodies. They rise with a body of flesh and bones but which does not contain the devastating effects of Adam's sin. It is a "new" body in the sense that it was not a product of the womb. There is not a single case of resurrection in the Bible where the person was not generally recognizable.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What all saints must share with Christ, however, is the need to ascend to heaven to receive our new glorified bodies *from him!* If he had to do it, we most certainly must as well!
    Scripture says otherwise! 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17;

    16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


    Verse 16 says that the Lord FIRST DESCENDS from heaven. He obviously stops in the clouds. THEN a trumpet sounds. The dead RISE (from Hades and the grave). At this point they are on the surface of the earth. Seconds later, and still on the earth, the LIVING Christians are changed (1st Cor.15:52). The resurrected HAVE THEIR NEW BODY and the "CHANGED" do NOT LOSE THEIR BODY. AFTER this CHANGE "in the twinkling of an eye" the Resurrected AND the Changed are caught UP TOGETHER FROM the earth to the clouds and then only for the first time MEET our Lord Jesus! So it was with our Lord Jesus. He rises out of Hades. He enters His glorified Body in the tomb. Angels remove the security stone commanded by Pilate. Jesus goes into the Garden and meets the women. They do not touch Him but could have, showing a physical body. He is Raptured to the Father and presents His blood and Himself as the Firstfruits of the dead. That evening He returns and commands His disciple to touch and handle Him to prove that he is flesh and bone. The flesh and bones are the SAME because HE SAW NO CORRUPTION (Acts 2:27-31, 13:35-37) like David did.

  3. #18
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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If 2nd Corinthians 5:1 says the body is "Dissolved" in death. Genesis 3:19 says it returns to the elements. How God keeps track of the atomic structure of a man's body implied in that he is the CREATOR and MAKER of all things. I find it absurd that a man who believes in God, and who observes the intricacy of the universe, cannot understand the God is ALL-mighty. To keep track of atoms and molecules must be one of the easiest things for our Great God.
    Sorry, parts of our body are wasting away every day. Our physical bodies, in part, regenerate and grow, and old materials, like skin, go away. No way does God "keep track" of all elements of our physical body. It is disposed of. When the physical composition of our bodies breaks down, we return to elements which may re-form into bodies of other living beings. Much of our body is atomic energy. This is not something that can be tracked as belonging to a particular being, since it is as basic as the ocean waters. Can you imagine assigning a particular cup of water as belonging to a particular fish?

    Can you imagine a man born without an arm or a leg being assigned a physical part that he never had? Much of this rises to the level of absurdity. We will get new bodies, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Every student of scripture who wants to force his/her theory turns to the "metaphorical". It gives the wannabe student full license to prove whatever he/she wants to. It is a swamp of "private interpretation". Those who take the Bible literally until hard evidence of the allegorical makes the literal absurd, are very restricted, but they come out with the true meaning. Lazarus came out of the same place he was buried. David is still in the same place he was buried.
    Don't you understand what decomposition is? Don't you recognize that old waste from decomposed bodies becomes fertilizer for new bodies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Our Lord Jesus came out of the same place He was buried. No doubt Abraham will rise from the field of Machpelah. He paid for it. A person does NOT reemerge from death by metaphorically rising from any old tomb. A person is RESURRECTED when the SOUL rises from Hades in the heart of the earth, the SPIRIT which God has kept for this day DESCENDS, and both these meet and ENTER the newly constructed Body (1st Ki.17:22; Lk.8:55). For EVERY Person, starting with our Lord Jesus Himself, resurrection life starts at the scene of the burial place. On a lighter and conciliatory note, you might be able to eek out a few exceptions like Jezebel who must be found from the feces of dogs. But then again, if you have ever observed dog's business over a few weeks, you will have noticed how quickly it returns to the elements.
    Jezebel is no exception. We all return to dust, just as the Scriptures say. The "grave" is indeed a metaphor for death itself. The *memory* of a person remains at the grave site. Bones may remain there for a very long time, particular if the tomb has conditions that preserve the body. But in the end it all returns to the dust. It is all temporal. A person may be revived from the dead while the body remains relatively intact. But the resurrection to glorified bodies is, I believe, something different entirely. Lazarus and Jesus were raised from the dead in their old bodies. Jesus still bore the scars of his crucifixion. But he ascended to heaven to obtain a new glorified body that was not in any way composed of the same materials as his old body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Brother, I recommend you quote scriptures for your ideas.
    1. Our Lord Jesus was already in a body that could be touched when He met the women
    2. Our Lord Jesus was already in a body that could speak when He met the women
    3. Our Lord Jesus was already in a body that could be seen by the women
    4. Our Lord Jesus did not ask the women not to "detain him". He asked them not to "TOUCH" Him. His Father has rights to the firstfruits and our Lord was "the firstfruits of them that slept".
    5. Resurrection is ALWAYS for the BODY. 1st Corinthians 15:35; "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" "UP" is the direction and "comes" means they already have this body.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by these comments. Nobody is arguing whether resurrection has to do with physical bodies (though I am curious about the form of physical bodies that originate from heaven?). But I do believe that Jesus was talking about not *detaining* him after the resurrection. He had to complete the process of resurrection by obtaining a new glorified body. He did not want to remain in the body that had been crucified forever. Neither does he want us to remain in our current physical forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    The do not reemerge with their old bodies. They rise with a body of flesh and bones but which does not contain the devastating effects of Adam's sin. It is a "new" body in the sense that it was not a product of the womb. There is not a single case of resurrection in the Bible where the person was not generally recognizable.
    With beards and moustaches I don't think people were always immediately recognizable? It would be even more difficult to recognize somebody if one was thought to have died, or if the person's physical condition has noticeably changed from the last time he was seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Scripture says otherwise! 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17;

    16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


    Verse 16 says that the Lord FIRST DESCENDS from heaven. He obviously stops in the clouds. THEN a trumpet sounds. The dead RISE (from Hades and the grave). At this point they are on the surface of the earth. Seconds later, and still on the earth, the LIVING Christians are changed (1st Cor.15:52). The resurrected HAVE THEIR NEW BODY and the "CHANGED" do NOT LOSE THEIR BODY. AFTER this CHANGE "in the twinkling of an eye" the Resurrected AND the Changed are caught UP TOGETHER FROM the earth to the clouds and then only for the first time MEET our Lord Jesus! So it was with our Lord Jesus. He rises out of Hades. He enters His glorified Body in the tomb. Angels remove the security stone commanded by Pilate. Jesus goes into the Garden and meets the women. They do not touch Him but could have, showing a physical body. He is Raptured to the Father and presents His blood and Himself as the Firstfruits of the dead. That evening He returns and commands His disciple to touch and handle Him to prove that he is flesh and bone. The flesh and bones are the SAME because HE SAW NO CORRUPTION (Acts 2:27-31, 13:35-37) like David did.
    I see it differently. I do see it as all taking place in a second of time. So the descent from heaven and our being gathered to Christ in heaven happens instantaneously. We are raised up into the clouds to receive glorified bodies and return with him to earth all in a single moment of time. To figure out the mechanics of this process is thus doomed to frustration. A moment of time cannot involve a process. We are raised to heaven and return to earth from heaven with Christ all in the same moment. We thus obtain our new glorified bodies in heaven when we meet Christ in heaven so that we may return with him in a glorified state, thus bringing the rule of God's Kingdom to earth at the 2nd Coming.

  4. #19
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    Re: Glorified bodies made of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sorry, parts of our body are wasting away every day. Our physical bodies, in part, regenerate and grow, and old materials, like skin, go away. No way does God "keep track" of all elements of our physical body. It is disposed of. When the physical composition of our bodies breaks down, we return to elements which may re-form into bodies of other living beings. Much of our body is atomic energy. This is not something that can be tracked as belonging to a particular being, since it is as basic as the ocean waters. Can you imagine assigning a particular cup of water as belonging to a particular fish?

    Can you imagine a man born without an arm or a leg being assigned a physical part that he never had? Much of this rises to the level of absurdity. We will get new bodies, period.



    Don't you understand what decomposition is? Don't you recognize that old waste from decomposed bodies becomes fertilizer for new bodies?



    Jezebel is no exception. We all return to dust, just as the Scriptures say. The "grave" is indeed a metaphor for death itself. The *memory* of a person remains at the grave site. Bones may remain there for a very long time, particular if the tomb has conditions that preserve the body. But in the end it all returns to the dust. It is all temporal. A person may be revived from the dead while the body remains relatively intact. But the resurrection to glorified bodies is, I believe, something different entirely. Lazarus and Jesus were raised from the dead in their old bodies. Jesus still bore the scars of his crucifixion. But he ascended to heaven to obtain a new glorified body that was not in any way composed of the same materials as his old body.



    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by these comments. Nobody is arguing whether resurrection has to do with physical bodies (though I am curious about the form of physical bodies that originate from heaven?). But I do believe that Jesus was talking about not *detaining* him after the resurrection. He had to complete the process of resurrection by obtaining a new glorified body. He did not want to remain in the body that had been crucified forever. Neither does he want us to remain in our current physical forms.



    With beards and moustaches I don't think people were always immediately recognizable? It would be even more difficult to recognize somebody if one was thought to have died, or if the person's physical condition has noticeably changed from the last time he was seen.



    I see it differently. I do see it as all taking place in a second of time. So the descent from heaven and our being gathered to Christ in heaven happens instantaneously. We are raised up into the clouds to receive glorified bodies and return with him to earth all in a single moment of time. To figure out the mechanics of this process is thus doomed to frustration. A moment of time cannot involve a process. We are raised to heaven and return to earth from heaven with Christ all in the same moment. We thus obtain our new glorified bodies in heaven when we meet Christ in heaven so that we may return with him in a glorified state, thus bringing the rule of God's Kingdom to earth at the 2nd Coming.
    OK. Thanks for the comprehensive reply. The reader now has at least two diverging views. It can only do good to provoke thoughts on what the scriptures say. Thanks for the exchange.

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