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Thread: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

  1. #16

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Hebrews 8:8 is a quote from Jermiah 31:31. In Jeremiah's day, this was still in the future; thus, the "day is coming." The New Covenant was to the Jews first, then the nations.

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."ŚRom. 1:16

    Sorry to repeat myself, but as I posted before:

    "But he answered and said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' "ŚMathew 15:24

    Hebrews 8:8 refers to the New Covenant with Israel which was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus. I don't see what there is about this that is difficult to grasp. Making Hebrews 8 refer to another "new covenant" in the future ignores the plain sense of the passage and is looking for difficulties where none exist, in my opinion.

  2. #17

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    "By so much also, Jesus has become the guarantee [/surety] of a better covenant." Hebrews 7:22 [blb]


    Also, I have in past posts pointed out the SEQUENCE of Matt22:7 and 8:

    --verse 7 regarding the 70ad events

    --then verse 8 regarding the "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (recall He was IN HEAVEN *AFTER* the 70ad events; I believe this refers to the LATER 95ad: Revelation 1:1 "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass [the FUTURE aspects of the Book, comp 4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." not immediately/shortly, and not that which would transpire over the course of some 2000 years; but that which will ALSO correlate with [the same phrases found in the CONTEXTS of] Lk18:8[chpt-17-end], AND Rom16:20 [<--this one pertaining to "the Church which is His body" and our future role of 1Cor6:3[14]...] "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS")

  3. #18
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Your who arguement above is flawed.

    You assume other people are creating groups like ('israleites' and 'christians' and then forcing those groups, to behave the way 'you' think they should behave; and then applying that premise to the arguement above.

    Those who disagree with you, disagree with your premisses to begin with.

    Those who disagree with you, believe that God created all mankind. every human being.

    Those human beings that faithfully believe and follow Him, regardless of their birthdate, regardless of their daddy or granddaddy, regardless of their ethnic or national heritage.....

    All those human beings are God's and are the entire point of the New Covenant in Christ's blood, shed at Calvary.

    Until you stop dicing, segregating, diving, God's faithful people in to groups; and forcing them and their scriptures against one another; you will not see the unity and transcendence of Calvary; to all the promises of God, to the entire people of Faith.

    You are constantly tripping yourself on your force divisions of words like 'Israel', 'Church', etc.... and are missing the big picture, that brings all of them together in unity, into one family of God; which all the promises are fulfilled in.
    If I am so wrong, how come you did not address one of my points? Our Lord Jesus is the promised Messiah to Israel. Israel rejected Him and murdered Him. That is Israel - those spoken of in my proffered verses in Romans 11. They are blind UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are full. They are, "... concluded by GOD to be in UNBELIEF". To lump Israel and the Church together is to propagates salvation WITHOUT FAITH? The House of Israel AFTER Rehoboam

    Once rejected and murdered by Israel, our Lord Jesus turns to the Gentiles and some of them hear and BELIEVE. That makes TWO DISTINCT ENTITIES. They are found again mayn times in the new Testament, but especially in Acts 15:14-16:

    14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

    David was king of COMBINED Israel - the sum of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. His Seed - Jesus, is predicted to ascend David's Throne - the Throne of COMBINED Israel, that is, ALL 12 TRIBES. This is who Jeremiah addresses.

    Let me present it in plain language:
    • Seeing as Israel are BLIND and in UNBELIEF they are under severe chastisement "TILL the Times of the Gentiles be full".
    • In the meantime God visits the Gentiles for a New People who BELIEVE and are called by His Name
    • When this is complete, as the prophets predicted, Israel will be RESTORED

    No matter what puzzles you, or what your beliefs are, anybody can see that there are TWO PEOPLES here. And Jeremiah the prophet, who was NOT PRIVY to the Church (seeing it is a mystery - 6 times in Ephesians alone), predicted that God would make a New Covenant of His Law with the FIRST of these TWO PEOPLES - ISRAEL. The wording could not be plainer. And seeing as this FUTURE Covenant had to be ratifed, or confirmed in blood, and God has chosen Christ as the shedder of that blood, our Lord ratifies it on Golgotha. But the inauguration, the coming into effect, is only in THAT DAY! Which Day? The DAY when Israel and Judah are united again in their Land. That there is a gap between the confirming and inauguration of the Covenant does not present any problem judicially. This is done thousands of times a day in the USA. The waiting time for a new model car with special color and options is 3 months. I sign the Contract today and only in three months time must the dealer deliver and I pay. What is so problematic to Christians. Do you really want to be Israel? Do you want to be a rejecter and killer of Messiah. Do you want God's Law with its inability to give Life? Do you want His Law that reminds continually of sin? Do you want to shun the birth by the Holy Spirit and return to Jacob's corrupt seed?

    The Bible makes a difference between Israel and the Church. Jeremiah did not even know about the Church. He was a Hebrew prophet in Jerusalem prophesying to Hebrews about a Hebrew destiny.

  4. #19
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If I am so wrong, how come you did not address one of my points? Our Lord Jesus is the promised Messiah to Israel. Israel rejected Him and murdered Him. That is Israel - those spoken of in my proffered verses in Romans 11. They are blind UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are full. They are, "... concluded by GOD to be in UNBELIEF".


    No they are not.

    Some of Israel rejected Messiah.
    But if you read the gospels and the book of Acts; you also find passage after passage of Israelites, who believed and followed Jesus in Great Multitudes!!

    Also they are not blinded as you say until the end of time.

    They are release immediatly from any blinding, if they repent.

    That promise is available to every Israelite throughout the entire NT era.

    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Act 2

    Any Israelite can immediately come out of blindness.
    When the end comes, all will have; and then all will be saved. But they are not blinded until the end. The promise is available from the day Peter spoke it above.

    Paul tells you the same thing here....when the blindness ends....

    II Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    As each Israelite repents, the veil is taken away; and they receive the promise; just like the 3000 Israelites did when Peter preached above in the first century.

  5. #20
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Paul makes it abudantly clear here; not a 'church group', not a 'israel group', not a 'us vs them' mentality that you constantly fight and use the scriptures to attempt to prop up; but ONE GROUP.

    Ephesians 2:13 "in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together

    God has joined us and the prophets together in one body in Christ; there is no argument. If you want to argue, and divide, and keep separate what God has joined into one, time for a self-check.
    You ignore the very basics of language and logic. When the grammar says "for to make in himself of twain one new man", it automatically implies THREE entities. The language is elegant. It say "of twain one new man". If we were to write this for junior school students we would write it, "OUT OF TWO A NEW MAN. There were TWO entities - Israel and the Gentiles, and OUT OF THESE TWO God makes a THIRD - SOMETHING NEW. I wish to restore an old Volvo Amazon. But no carcass is fit to restore, so I buy TWO Amazons and OUT OF the TWO, I make a NEW and THIRD CAR. The robbed carcasses of the OTHER TWO still lie in my back yard.

    What you propose is that God has taken ALL ISRAEL and ALL the GENTILES and made the whole world's population Israel. This is not the case. God has taken maybe 3% of Israel, and 3% of the Gentiles and made a NEW Man. This leaves Israel intact with 97% of the seed of Jacob, and it leaves the Gentiles intact with 97% of the rest of the world - THREE ENTITIES.

    Then the rest of the verses make sense. The TWO entities that God took the New Man OUT OF remain as they were - Israel under God's Laws and the Gentiles under conscience. The THIRD entity, the New Man is under GRACE. But there is a problem in the new Man that needs to be solved. The 3% of Israel who are now the new Man will tend to follow the Law. This will DIVIDE ex-Jews from ex-Gentiles. So God solves the problem by putting the Law on the CROSS with Christ - BUT ONLY FOR THE NEW MAN! Israel still has Law, and the Gentiles still have conscience. And what was this all for? TO MAKE THE NEW MAN ELIGIBLE FOR ANOTHER COVENANT - that with Abraham - the Covenant of PROMISE.

    The word "commonwealth" does not concern who is a citizen or not. It concerns how the Laws of the State are applied to the citizens. The daily life and destiny of an Israelite are governed by Covenants (Rom.9:4). There is the Covenant of the Rainbow which applies to "all flesh". There is the Covenant of PROMISE made with Abraham 430 years before God made the Covenant of Law. And at Sinai, and later, God attached some other Covenants to the Law like the Covenant of the Levitical Priesthood, that of the Sabbath, that of the Passover and the Davidic Covenant. Ephesians 2 deals with the problem of how to get ex-Gentiles, who are not seed of Jacob, to be HEIR to the Covenant of PROMISE. The Covenant of Promise is basically, "WHO GETS TO INHERIT THE EARTH" (Rom.4:13). So the New Man is NOT JOINED TO ISRAEL. It is JOINED TO THE COMMONWEALTH. To be joined to Israel it would have to keep the Law (Num.15:29). But the Law is nailed to the cross for these "strangers". That is why the FOUNDATION is NOT CHRIST like the Church in 1st Corinthians 3.

    The Covenant of PROMISE is set forth by the prophets, and then by the Apostles. It is NOT the Church and it is NOT salvation. It is; "WHO GETS THE LAND". Thus, the foundation is the Prophets and the Apostles JOINED and ANCHORED by the finished Work, and Person of Christ FOR THE GAINING AND INHERITING OF THE EARTH.

    Here is the text under discussion for reference - Ephesians 2:12-20 (KJV)

    12 "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"

  6. #21
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    No they are not.

    Some of Israel rejected Messiah.
    But if you read the gospels and the book of Acts; you also find passage after passage of Israelites, who believed and followed Jesus in Great Multitudes!!

    Also they are not blinded as you say until the end of time.

    They are release immediatly from any blinding, if they repent.

    That promise is available to every Israelite throughout the entire NT era.

    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Act 2

    Any Israelite can immediately come out of blindness.
    When the end comes, all will have; and then all will be saved. But they are not blinded until the end. The promise is available from the day Peter spoke it above.

    Paul tells you the same thing here....when the blindness ends....

    II Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    As each Israelite repents, the veil is taken away; and they receive the promise; just like the 3000 Israelites did when Peter preached above in the first century.
    We seem to be writing at the same time. May I let you consider my posting #20 as an answer to this posting above? Maybe we can then come to some degree of agreement on the New Man. It's 01:00 here so I'll be scuttling off to bed now. I'll try to answer any objections to posting #20 tomorrow. Good night brother - or shall it be good afternoon where you are?

  7. #22

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post

    JEREMIAH 31 [31] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; AFTER THOSE DAYS, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] AND THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Verse 34- Does EVERYONE know the Lord?
    And here we are trying to teach each other the Word of God and what it means and claiming this scripture has been fulfilled. YIKES!

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