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Thread: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

  1. #16

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Hebrews 8:8 is a quote from Jermiah 31:31. In Jeremiah's day, this was still in the future; thus, the "day is coming." The New Covenant was to the Jews first, then the nations.

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."—Rom. 1:16

    Sorry to repeat myself, but as I posted before:

    "But he answered and said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' "—Mathew 15:24

    Hebrews 8:8 refers to the New Covenant with Israel which was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus. I don't see what there is about this that is difficult to grasp. Making Hebrews 8 refer to another "new covenant" in the future ignores the plain sense of the passage and is looking for difficulties where none exist, in my opinion.

  2. #17

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    "By so much also, Jesus has become the guarantee [/surety] of a better covenant." Hebrews 7:22 [blb]


    Also, I have in past posts pointed out the SEQUENCE of Matt22:7 and 8:

    --verse 7 regarding the 70ad events

    --then verse 8 regarding the "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (recall He was IN HEAVEN *AFTER* the 70ad events; I believe this refers to the LATER 95ad: Revelation 1:1 "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass [the FUTURE aspects of the Book, comp 4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." not immediately/shortly, and not that which would transpire over the course of some 2000 years; but that which will ALSO correlate with [the same phrases found in the CONTEXTS of] Lk18:8[chpt-17-end], AND Rom16:20 [<--this one pertaining to "the Church which is His body" and our future role of 1Cor6:3[14]...] "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS")

  3. #18
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Your who arguement above is flawed.

    You assume other people are creating groups like ('israleites' and 'christians' and then forcing those groups, to behave the way 'you' think they should behave; and then applying that premise to the arguement above.

    Those who disagree with you, disagree with your premisses to begin with.

    Those who disagree with you, believe that God created all mankind. every human being.

    Those human beings that faithfully believe and follow Him, regardless of their birthdate, regardless of their daddy or granddaddy, regardless of their ethnic or national heritage.....

    All those human beings are God's and are the entire point of the New Covenant in Christ's blood, shed at Calvary.

    Until you stop dicing, segregating, diving, God's faithful people in to groups; and forcing them and their scriptures against one another; you will not see the unity and transcendence of Calvary; to all the promises of God, to the entire people of Faith.

    You are constantly tripping yourself on your force divisions of words like 'Israel', 'Church', etc.... and are missing the big picture, that brings all of them together in unity, into one family of God; which all the promises are fulfilled in.
    If I am so wrong, how come you did not address one of my points? Our Lord Jesus is the promised Messiah to Israel. Israel rejected Him and murdered Him. That is Israel - those spoken of in my proffered verses in Romans 11. They are blind UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are full. They are, "... concluded by GOD to be in UNBELIEF". To lump Israel and the Church together is to propagates salvation WITHOUT FAITH? The House of Israel AFTER Rehoboam

    Once rejected and murdered by Israel, our Lord Jesus turns to the Gentiles and some of them hear and BELIEVE. That makes TWO DISTINCT ENTITIES. They are found again mayn times in the new Testament, but especially in Acts 15:14-16:

    14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

    David was king of COMBINED Israel - the sum of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. His Seed - Jesus, is predicted to ascend David's Throne - the Throne of COMBINED Israel, that is, ALL 12 TRIBES. This is who Jeremiah addresses.

    Let me present it in plain language:
    • Seeing as Israel are BLIND and in UNBELIEF they are under severe chastisement "TILL the Times of the Gentiles be full".
    • In the meantime God visits the Gentiles for a New People who BELIEVE and are called by His Name
    • When this is complete, as the prophets predicted, Israel will be RESTORED

    No matter what puzzles you, or what your beliefs are, anybody can see that there are TWO PEOPLES here. And Jeremiah the prophet, who was NOT PRIVY to the Church (seeing it is a mystery - 6 times in Ephesians alone), predicted that God would make a New Covenant of His Law with the FIRST of these TWO PEOPLES - ISRAEL. The wording could not be plainer. And seeing as this FUTURE Covenant had to be ratifed, or confirmed in blood, and God has chosen Christ as the shedder of that blood, our Lord ratifies it on Golgotha. But the inauguration, the coming into effect, is only in THAT DAY! Which Day? The DAY when Israel and Judah are united again in their Land. That there is a gap between the confirming and inauguration of the Covenant does not present any problem judicially. This is done thousands of times a day in the USA. The waiting time for a new model car with special color and options is 3 months. I sign the Contract today and only in three months time must the dealer deliver and I pay. What is so problematic to Christians. Do you really want to be Israel? Do you want to be a rejecter and killer of Messiah. Do you want God's Law with its inability to give Life? Do you want His Law that reminds continually of sin? Do you want to shun the birth by the Holy Spirit and return to Jacob's corrupt seed?

    The Bible makes a difference between Israel and the Church. Jeremiah did not even know about the Church. He was a Hebrew prophet in Jerusalem prophesying to Hebrews about a Hebrew destiny.

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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If I am so wrong, how come you did not address one of my points? Our Lord Jesus is the promised Messiah to Israel. Israel rejected Him and murdered Him. That is Israel - those spoken of in my proffered verses in Romans 11. They are blind UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are full. They are, "... concluded by GOD to be in UNBELIEF".


    No they are not.

    Some of Israel rejected Messiah.
    But if you read the gospels and the book of Acts; you also find passage after passage of Israelites, who believed and followed Jesus in Great Multitudes!!

    Also they are not blinded as you say until the end of time.

    They are release immediatly from any blinding, if they repent.

    That promise is available to every Israelite throughout the entire NT era.

    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Act 2

    Any Israelite can immediately come out of blindness.
    When the end comes, all will have; and then all will be saved. But they are not blinded until the end. The promise is available from the day Peter spoke it above.

    Paul tells you the same thing here....when the blindness ends....

    II Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    As each Israelite repents, the veil is taken away; and they receive the promise; just like the 3000 Israelites did when Peter preached above in the first century.

  5. #20
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Paul makes it abudantly clear here; not a 'church group', not a 'israel group', not a 'us vs them' mentality that you constantly fight and use the scriptures to attempt to prop up; but ONE GROUP.

    Ephesians 2:13 "in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together

    God has joined us and the prophets together in one body in Christ; there is no argument. If you want to argue, and divide, and keep separate what God has joined into one, time for a self-check.
    You ignore the very basics of language and logic. When the grammar says "for to make in himself of twain one new man", it automatically implies THREE entities. The language is elegant. It say "of twain one new man". If we were to write this for junior school students we would write it, "OUT OF TWO A NEW MAN. There were TWO entities - Israel and the Gentiles, and OUT OF THESE TWO God makes a THIRD - SOMETHING NEW. I wish to restore an old Volvo Amazon. But no carcass is fit to restore, so I buy TWO Amazons and OUT OF the TWO, I make a NEW and THIRD CAR. The robbed carcasses of the OTHER TWO still lie in my back yard.

    What you propose is that God has taken ALL ISRAEL and ALL the GENTILES and made the whole world's population Israel. This is not the case. God has taken maybe 3% of Israel, and 3% of the Gentiles and made a NEW Man. This leaves Israel intact with 97% of the seed of Jacob, and it leaves the Gentiles intact with 97% of the rest of the world - THREE ENTITIES.

    Then the rest of the verses make sense. The TWO entities that God took the New Man OUT OF remain as they were - Israel under God's Laws and the Gentiles under conscience. The THIRD entity, the New Man is under GRACE. But there is a problem in the new Man that needs to be solved. The 3% of Israel who are now the new Man will tend to follow the Law. This will DIVIDE ex-Jews from ex-Gentiles. So God solves the problem by putting the Law on the CROSS with Christ - BUT ONLY FOR THE NEW MAN! Israel still has Law, and the Gentiles still have conscience. And what was this all for? TO MAKE THE NEW MAN ELIGIBLE FOR ANOTHER COVENANT - that with Abraham - the Covenant of PROMISE.

    The word "commonwealth" does not concern who is a citizen or not. It concerns how the Laws of the State are applied to the citizens. The daily life and destiny of an Israelite are governed by Covenants (Rom.9:4). There is the Covenant of the Rainbow which applies to "all flesh". There is the Covenant of PROMISE made with Abraham 430 years before God made the Covenant of Law. And at Sinai, and later, God attached some other Covenants to the Law like the Covenant of the Levitical Priesthood, that of the Sabbath, that of the Passover and the Davidic Covenant. Ephesians 2 deals with the problem of how to get ex-Gentiles, who are not seed of Jacob, to be HEIR to the Covenant of PROMISE. The Covenant of Promise is basically, "WHO GETS TO INHERIT THE EARTH" (Rom.4:13). So the New Man is NOT JOINED TO ISRAEL. It is JOINED TO THE COMMONWEALTH. To be joined to Israel it would have to keep the Law (Num.15:29). But the Law is nailed to the cross for these "strangers". That is why the FOUNDATION is NOT CHRIST like the Church in 1st Corinthians 3.

    The Covenant of PROMISE is set forth by the prophets, and then by the Apostles. It is NOT the Church and it is NOT salvation. It is; "WHO GETS THE LAND". Thus, the foundation is the Prophets and the Apostles JOINED and ANCHORED by the finished Work, and Person of Christ FOR THE GAINING AND INHERITING OF THE EARTH.

    Here is the text under discussion for reference - Ephesians 2:12-20 (KJV)

    12 "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"

  6. #21
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    No they are not.

    Some of Israel rejected Messiah.
    But if you read the gospels and the book of Acts; you also find passage after passage of Israelites, who believed and followed Jesus in Great Multitudes!!

    Also they are not blinded as you say until the end of time.

    They are release immediatly from any blinding, if they repent.

    That promise is available to every Israelite throughout the entire NT era.

    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Act 2

    Any Israelite can immediately come out of blindness.
    When the end comes, all will have; and then all will be saved. But they are not blinded until the end. The promise is available from the day Peter spoke it above.

    Paul tells you the same thing here....when the blindness ends....

    II Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    As each Israelite repents, the veil is taken away; and they receive the promise; just like the 3000 Israelites did when Peter preached above in the first century.
    We seem to be writing at the same time. May I let you consider my posting #20 as an answer to this posting above? Maybe we can then come to some degree of agreement on the New Man. It's 01:00 here so I'll be scuttling off to bed now. I'll try to answer any objections to posting #20 tomorrow. Good night brother - or shall it be good afternoon where you are?

  7. #22

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post

    JEREMIAH 31 [31] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; AFTER THOSE DAYS, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] AND THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Verse 34- Does EVERYONE know the Lord?
    And here we are trying to teach each other the Word of God and what it means and claiming this scripture has been fulfilled. YIKES!

  8. #23

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    So when does the covenant found in Hebrews 8 come to pass?


    HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I WILL BE TO THEM A GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE TO ME A PEOPLE:


    brother....why do you think the book of Hebrews is using quotes from Jeremiah , explaining things to the church? Even if you read only chapter 8 look at what's being said


    Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

    A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.



    For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

    But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

    For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”
    **Hebrews‬ *8:1-2, 4-7‬ *KJV‬‬


    are you seeing what I mean? The first covenant had Levites as priests, Jesus is of the tribe of Judah, he is not allowed under the law, to be a priest. He's the high priest , the mediator of the new covenant . His priesthood is of melchezideks order, now melchezidek was priest before the law was given, the law was then given and the Levites were made priests of that law, as you see above it was only a pattern of what was coming in the messiah.

    Moses mediated the first covenant, Jesus mediated the new. When Moses spoke all the laws to them, he shed the blood and said " this is the blood of the covenant enjoined to you " and the law was then put into effect, the law is the first covenant recognized here, the one which God found fault with the people, and promised the new.

    Jesus preaching, is the new and everlasting covenant, it's why the book of Hebrews is explaining all this stuff, here's a few more places you should look

    “Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

    Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

    The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

    But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
    **Hebrews‬ *9:1, 6-9, 11-12, 15-17‬ *KJV‬‬


    this is where the first began

    “For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

    It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these;


    but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:”
    **Hebrews‬ *9:19-20, 23-24‬ *KJV‬‬


    are you seeing?

    Jesus mediated the new covenant just like Moses , first he preached the gospel to the people, then he told them at the last supper just before he shed his blood " this is the blood of the new testament" then just like Moses did...he shed his blood of the new covenant.

    see the scriptures above where it says " a testament is of force AFTER men are dead? That is telling you what Jesus preached , is the covenant enforced when he shed his blood on the cross. The prior things were a pattern only, the temple they built was only a pattern of the one in heaven where Christ is now. We are in the new covenant it's forever. From the moment Jesus shed his blood , the gospel he preached is the covenant.

    further , see the quote from chapter 8, that's from Jeremiah which is the basis for your question? See her they are further explaining it..

    “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.”
    **Hebrews‬ *10:10, 12, 15-22‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you see ? Why do you think they are explaining these things from Jeremiah? They are explaining that Jesus has fulfilled this prophecy bringing the new....finally as you progress through Hebrews....look at what they are saying here

    “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake


    That's the giving of the first covenant from mount Sinai...mediated by Moses. Now look where the church is

    But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:18-25‬ *KJV‬‬



    so if Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant.....when did the covenant begin?

  9. #24

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    The book of Hebrews is dedicated to teaching the Hebrew Christians to let go of the old covenant , and to accept the new which came in Christ.

  10. #25
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    The book of Hebrews is dedicated to teaching the Hebrew Christians to let go of the old covenant , and to accept the new which came in Christ.
    Strange. I thought that a Christian is a New Man and his past is blotted out (2nd Cor.5:17). How could he still be a Hebrew? Would it not be more accurate to say that Hebrews is written to ex-Hebrews who had embraced Christ, but were in danger of slipping back to Moses? Hebrews is a vitally important Book because on this Forum, AND in Christianity at large, we have ex-GENTILES who have embraced Christ BUT STILL WANT TO APPLY MOSES THOUGH THEY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM!

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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Strange. I thought that a Christian is a New Man and his past is blotted out (2nd Cor.5:17). How could he still be a Hebrew?
    Hebrew would be their race. Apostle Paul was also a Hebrew, of the tribe of Benjamin. And regarding the law, a Pharisee. But, he was also a Christian.

    Philippians 3
    3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
    4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
    5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

  12. #27

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Strange. I thought that a Christian is a New Man and his past is blotted out (2nd Cor.5:17). How could he still be a Hebrew? Would it not be more accurate to say that Hebrews is written to ex-Hebrews who had embraced Christ, but were in danger of slipping back to Moses? Hebrews is a vitally important Book because on this Forum, AND in Christianity at large, we have ex-GENTILES who have embraced Christ BUT STILL WANT TO APPLY MOSES THOUGH THEY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM!

    not really I wouldn't think, because if you notice through the New Testament, the major conflict regarding doctrine was the jidiazers coming behind Paul and the apostles , trying to get Christians, to adhere to the Hebrew or Jewish law. Hebrews , are of Abraham. To Abraham the gospel was promised before the Jewish law ever was set in place. It's addressed to hebrew Christians to explain to them the old things were not the eternal things , and that Christ the messiah had come.

    if you start from chapter one it makes much more sense, the issue was thier adherence and loyalty to the covenant which was only a pattern and foretelling of what now , had come. Don't get me wrong any Christian who wants to enderstand depth of doctrine will benefit maybe more from Hebrews than any book other than the gospels, again as to understanding the depth of the covenant....

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
    **Hebrews‬ *1:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    the rest of the first chapter is an argument for the supremacy of Jesus over angels and men, using scriptures which Hebrews had known for centuries. Then they take up speaking what was being said about what Jesus spoke

    “Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

    How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
    **Hebrews‬ *2:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you see how they are separating what was spoken before, making the point that the Gospel preached by Jesus , and then his disciples and even by the Holy Ghost through all the miracles .....those things are greater they take supremacy over the old things mediated by angels to Moses? The entire book is this way. From the word spoken, to the priesthood how melchezidek was far greater than Levites, how his order was before the levitical which is of the law of Sinai, how the blood of Jesus is much greater than the blood of animals, which were of the law....the whole book addresses every part of the old covenant , and expresses how much greater and better the new which came in Christ, is.


    the intent at the time was to argue to the Hebrews who were struggling to grasp the new and were being attacked by those trying to place them back under the old. The book is entirely about the two covenants and the change that had happened. It's addressed to the Hebrews for that purpose, it doesn't mean it's not full of understanding for gentile Christians....if they know the scriptures it is maybe the richest deep well of understanding apart from the four gospels available in the New Testament.

    note how many times through the book, the Hebrew Scriptures are quoted and then the arguments are made for Christ from those scriptures. It's because the scriptures they had known being Hebrews it's really thier culture the Old Testament scriptures I mean.

  13. #28

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Hebrew would be their race. Apostle Paul was also a Hebrew, of the tribe of Benjamin. And regarding the law, a Pharisee. But, he was also a Christian.

    Philippians 3
    3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
    4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
    5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

    Hebrews are tha natural descendants of this guy....

    “And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.”
    **Genesis‬ *14:13‬ *KJV‬‬


    Any Israelite is a Hebrew by flesh and blood. They are the seed of abram the Hebrew.

  14. #29
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    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    not really I wouldn't think, because if you notice through the New Testament, the major conflict regarding doctrine was the jidiazers coming behind Paul and the apostles , trying to get Christians, to adhere to the Hebrew or Jewish law. Hebrews , are of Abraham. To Abraham the gospel was promised before the Jewish law ever was set in place. It's addressed to hebrew Christians to explain to them the old things were not the eternal things , and that Christ the messiah had come.

    if you start from chapter one it makes much more sense, the issue was thier adherence and loyalty to the covenant which was only a pattern and foretelling of what now , had come. Don't get me wrong any Christian who wants to enderstand depth of doctrine will benefit maybe more from Hebrews than any book other than the gospels, again as to understanding the depth of the covenant....

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
    **Hebrews‬ *1:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    the rest of the first chapter is an argument for the supremacy of Jesus over angels and men, using scriptures which Hebrews had known for centuries. Then they take up speaking what was being said about what Jesus spoke

    “Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

    How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
    **Hebrews‬ *2:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you see how they are separating what was spoken before, making the point that the Gospel preached by Jesus , and then his disciples and even by the Holy Ghost through all the miracles .....those things are greater they take supremacy over the old things mediated by angels to Moses? The entire book is this way. From the word spoken, to the priesthood how melchezidek was far greater than Levites, how his order was before the levitical which is of the law of Sinai, how the blood of Jesus is much greater than the blood of animals, which were of the law....the whole book addresses every part of the old covenant , and expresses how much greater and better the new which came in Christ, is.


    the intent at the time was to argue to the Hebrews who were struggling to grasp the new and were being attacked by those trying to place them back under the old. The book is entirely about the two covenants and the change that had happened. It's addressed to the Hebrews for that purpose, it doesn't mean it's not full of understanding for gentile Christians....if they know the scriptures it is maybe the richest deep well of understanding apart from the four gospels available in the New Testament.

    note how many times through the book, the Hebrew Scriptures are quoted and then the arguments are made for Christ from those scriptures. It's because the scriptures they had known being Hebrews it's really thier culture the Old Testament scriptures I mean.
    With most of this I can agree. Thanks.

  15. #30

    Re: HEBREWS 8 WHEN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Strange. I thought that a Christian is a New Man and his past is blotted out (2nd Cor.5:17). How could he still be a Hebrew? Would it not be more accurate to say that Hebrews is written to ex-Hebrews who had embraced Christ, but were in danger of slipping back to Moses? Hebrews is a vitally important Book because on this Forum, AND in Christianity at large, we have ex-GENTILES who have embraced Christ BUT STILL WANT TO APPLY MOSES THOUGH THEY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM!

    I do agree here with you, sort of what I was getting at, yet, Moses and his law applies to the entire world. The Hebrews were scattered into all the earth , because of thier disobedience. Wherever they went , the law came with them into every nation. Now we know migration brings intermarriage after a few generations, many foreigners had converted. On example even then is the Ethiopian which was sitting and reading the prophet Isaiah, not understanding it, and Phillip then comes along preaching Jesus from Isaiah 53, which was what the Ethiopian was reading.

    like the Jewish things spread into all the world through the dispursions throughout time, so the gospel was spread into all the world through Christians dispersing as well after it all began in Israel. In this way both the law of Moses, and the gospel is spread to all people of the earth....which was the first promise to Abraham, that through him all people of earth would be blessed. See Genesis 12 1st paragraph.


    Moses isn't for the intent of saving anyone, but the law applies to everyone , in order to bring condemnation over sin which all of us have, it's intent is to bring the world to Christ the savior, through understanding our sin is condemned by God, or rather were condemned by the law because of our sin.......this is what makes a person understand " I need the savior" once we find the savior, we realize under the law we were dead through the body of Christ to the law, so that the laws judgement of death upon sinners is fulfilled as he dies for our sins. And we are given life through the gospel.


    it's a theme of death through the law, and resurrection through the gospel.

    most just hear about the savior and accept ok Jesus came to save us.....but until we realize we're dead without him because of the judgements in the law, we can never really even grasp why it is we need a savior , and how it is he saves us....

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