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Thread: Who or what is or will be the Great H

  1. #106
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    Cool Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Pure conjecture. If Rome had its way, Islam would be no more. And Saladin didn't care whether his enemies were the RCC, the huns or the hoards from China.
    " Originally Posted by Deade:You that think all mankind is the harlot fail to realize she is a mother of other harlots (religions).
    I should have been more clear--the harlots are not just different religions. When Protestants broke off from Rome--they continued with much of the same errant dogma of the RCC.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  2. #107
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I should have been more clear--the harlots are not just different religions. When Protestants broke off from Rome--they continued with much of the same errant dogma of the RCC.
    So Deade, I am trying to figure out your stand with your posts. Is it the RCC and Rome to you? I must say in my searching the net the majority found is on them. Most put the reason as changing the sabbath as a reason though.

    The call to come out of her my people would have to fit in John's time as well as today. To me that part wouldn't fit RCC...it was not formed then. Whereas a call to come out of false religion would fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I should have been more clear--the harlots are not just different religions. When Protestants broke off from Rome--they continued with much of the same errant dogma of the RCC.
    So Deade, I am trying to figure out your stand with your posts. Is it the RCC and Rome to you? I must say in my searching the net the majority found is on them. Most put the reason as changing the sabbath as a reason though.

    The call to come out of her my people would have to fit in John's time as well as today. To me that part wouldn't fit RCC...it was not formed then. Whereas a call to come out of false religion would fit.

  3. #108
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    So please tell us who created it. Who is this mother or give me a link to read.
    https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Re-17.html
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



  4. #109
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I should have been more clear--the harlots are not just different religions. When Protestants broke off from Rome--they continued with much of the same errant dogma of the RCC.
    Well gee, maybe you could tell us who
    isnít the harlot

  5. #110
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    Cool Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    So Deade, I am trying to figure out your stand with your posts. Is it the RCC and Rome to you? I must say in my searching the net the majority found is on them. Most put the reason as changing the sabbath as a reason though.

    The call to come out of her my people would have to fit in John's time as well as today. To me that part wouldn't fit RCC...it was not formed then. Whereas a call to come out of false religion would fit.

    Just what makes you think Rev. 17 must be applicable to John time at Patmos? No, it is talking to the generation right before Christ's return. Let us not forget that Rome overtook Christianity by invoking the Nicaea Council under the pagan emperor turned Christian from a single battle. So, we still have Rome taking charge of this pseudo-Christianity giving antichrist full rule over know Christiandom.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  6. #111
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    Cool Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Well gee, maybe you could tell us who
    isnít the harlot
    Believe me, you don't want to know.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  7. #112
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Believe me, you don't want to know.
    Actually that is the question stated in the title of this thread.

    So ........ yea, ......... we do want to know!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Believe me, you don't want to know.
    Actually that is the question stated in the title of this thread.

    So ........ yea, ......... we do want to know!
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  8. #113
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Believe me, you don't want to know.
    As a Christian you should be more transparent

  9. #114
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    I've been bothered by Rev 17 and the Great Harlot for many years. I was sort of "raised" with the idea that the Harlot is an Apostate Church, like an apostate RCC, and that the Rev 18 is a different sort of entity. One was a religious harlot, and the other, an economic harlot.

    I don't buy into this today. I believe the Harlot is a single harlot, both religious and economic. And I think there must be a direct correlation between the Great Harlot and OT biblical prophecy. In Dan 7 we read of a 4th Great Beast on earth, which I believe is the Roman Empire. It is viewed as the last great kingdom of man in the Mediterranean region, oppressing God's people, until the Kingdom of Christ comes.

    The Great Harlot, as I see it, is a personification of this 4th Empire in the form of an actual city, the city of Rome. It put to death apostles and prophets, and was in fact responsible for Christ's death. I believe she is referred to as a "mystery" because God did not want John to appear seditious, since he had been imprisoned by Rome on the Isle of Patmos.

    This Woman, or Rome, rides the back of the Beast. That is, the city is somewhat distinct from the Empire as a whole, and thrives on the great extent of the Empire. That is why, I think, the Harlot is called "Great."

    This prophecy was given to the Early Church because Rome was already in power, and could be related to. But this is also a future prophecy of the endtimes, and applies to a final confrontation between Christ and the forces of the Antichrist, who will come to control this Empire. He will, in fact, also destroy the city of Rome!

    We know the Beast has 10 states, or kingdoms. But apparently there will only be 7 heads, or kings. Dan 7 indicates that Antichrist defeats 3 of them.

    A further identification of the Great Harlot with Rome is the fact she identifies with the 7 heads in other ways. That is, not only does the city relate with the empire, but it also relates with 7 kings.

    This appears to be a kind of riddle to identify the "mystery" of Rome so that Christians know what city John is really speaking of. The succession of 7 kings is therefore not the actual kings who rule with Antichrist, but rather, a procession of historical kingdoms leading up to Rome. 5 have already been, and Rome is the 6th.

    This clearly identifies Rome. But the 7th is the last, and the future Kingdom of Antichrist John is speaking of. Antichrist is himself an 8th king, meaning that he is the central figure in the final Empire.

    What makes the Harlot such a warning to the Church in John's day? It was the fact that the Roman culture was despicable, corrupt, and wicked. In fact she is referred to as "abominable," which is perhaps relating to the "abomination of desolation" which Jesus said would destroy Jerusalem and the temple. This Harlot enticed people away from the work of Christ by using the enticements of sin, lust, and covetousness.

    The Christians were called to "flee from her," in the same way Israel was called to return to Israel, fleeing from Babylon, which was about to be destroyed. In the same way, Christians were to flee the Roman culture, because Rome also was soon to be destroyed. That happened in 476 AD. And the latter Empire will be destroyed at the coming of Christ's Kingdom.

    A final indication that the Great Harlot was Rome is her identification with "Babylon." Babylon was the 1st of 4 Beasts in Dan 7 which led to the Roman Empire.

    I don't really know about the "fatal wound" of the Beast. But I think it may have to do with the fact the ancient Roman Empire was dealt a fatal blow by Christ at the cross, eventually leading to the demise of the Empire in 476 AD. It has been in the process of resurrection ever since, with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire. But I suppose we'll see.

    I will just add this. The Great Harlot is the "mother of harlots" because it carried pagan religion and Greek philosophy, which has inspired the multiple pagan religions and philosophies of the Roman Empire, and has inspired the return to those things after the Renaissance in Europe. It is the pull of secular humanism in the West, which as we know is still alive and well. Christianity in the West is rapidly returning to the old pagan Roman culture, with all of her religions and all of her economic corruption.

    I wouldn't identify the Holy Roman Empire or the RCC with this Great Harlot. But she has always been the same old city, containing the same old sins. In the endtimes I believe Rome will be consumed with these sins and will follow the Antichrist. And for some reason, Antichrist will despise her and destroy her.

    This wouldn't surprise me because Rome has been a source of Christian influence for many centuries. I could understand why Antichrist would want to remove all trace of competition with his Empire!

  10. #115
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Just what makes you think Rev. 17 must be applicable to John time at Patmos? No, it is talking to the generation right before Christ's return.


    I think it is talking about both.
    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:



    Let us not forget that Rome overtook Christianity by invoking the Nicaea Council under the pagan emperor turned Christian from a single battle. So, we still have Rome taking charge of this pseudo-Christianity giving antichrist full rule over know Christiandom.
    I don't understand your problem with the Nicaea Council...it wasn't made up of Romans it was made up of Christian Bishops. Coming to a unity of just who was Christ Jesus. It was accepted by many churches. That is how I understand it anyway. From that came the Nicene Creed in 325 and from that came the Apostles Creed in 390. I don't see that Romans had anything to do with it other than choosing Christianity as their religion, or you could say they forced a unity of the understanding and faith.

  11. #116
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Are all of these men wrong?

    http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



  12. #117
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Are all of these men wrong?

    http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm
    I am not saying there is nothing wrong with the RCC. As your link points out, it is the papacy they are pointing to...not the people within the church. So the foundations to believe in Jesus is there. I see that church as being maybe rebuked by Jesus as in the 7 churches but there are many churches that would apply to. There were false apostles and Jezebels in the church even then.

    The point is do we need to look worldly...as God so loved the world...and whosoever believes. Therefore mankind would apply as belonging to God. If that is the case then the world (mankind) would represent the church and it would be false religion that would be a harlot. Does that make sense?

  13. #118
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Are all of these men wrong?

    http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm
    Scriptual exegesis please

  14. #119
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Scriptual exegesis please
    https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Re-17.html

    II Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

    Here are the witnesses..

    http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

    http://homecomers.org/mirror/index-old.htm
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



  15. #120
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I think it is talking about both.
    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:




    I don't understand your problem with the Nicaea Council...it wasn't made up of Romans it was made up of Christian Bishops. Coming to a unity of just who was Christ Jesus. It was accepted by many churches. That is how I understand it anyway. From that came the Nicene Creed in 325 and from that came the Apostles Creed in 390. I don't see that Romans had anything to do with it other than choosing Christianity as their religion, or you could say they forced a unity of the understanding and faith.
    I share your sentiment here. It seems there has been this long-standing effort to dismiss "organized Christianity," which sounds to me like someone ate sour grapes among a group of Separatists. Somehow this attitude of "Separation of Church and State" has permeated our Christian culture until it is naturally assumed that "government is evil" and "religion is supposed to hide in a corner somewhere." It is thought to be impossible for a Christian to have any place in government, and still legislate as a Christian. Well yes, that's getting difficult to do! But part of the problem is, Christian leaders aren't able to discern that even with compromise they can get some Christian bills passed!

    But I digress...

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I think it is talking about both.
    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:




    I don't understand your problem with the Nicaea Council...it wasn't made up of Romans it was made up of Christian Bishops. Coming to a unity of just who was Christ Jesus. It was accepted by many churches. That is how I understand it anyway. From that came the Nicene Creed in 325 and from that came the Apostles Creed in 390. I don't see that Romans had anything to do with it other than choosing Christianity as their religion, or you could say they forced a unity of the understanding and faith.
    I share your sentiment here. It seems there has been this long-standing effort to dismiss "organized Christianity," which sounds to me like someone ate sour grapes among a group of Separatists. Somehow this attitude of "Separation of Church and State" has permeated our Christian culture until it is naturally assumed that "government is evil" and "religion is supposed to hide in a corner somewhere." It is thought to be impossible for a Christian to have any place in government, and still legislate as a Christian. Well yes, that's getting difficult to do! But part of the problem is, Christian leaders aren't able to discern that even with compromise they can get some Christian bills passed!

    But I digress...

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