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Thread: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

  1. #46
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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, in some ways we are all "crushed." Israel is the prototype for the nations. We all suffer.
    LOL. Above you talk about how much Israel suffers. When I point out that it fulfills prophecy, you change your line to "all nations suffer".

    But let's pray together that the Lord will "crush" Hamas in the U.N. today. Terrorists have no place anywhere!
    Sigh. If only. We both know the UN too well. If the Palestinians introduced a resolution that Israel made the dinosaurs extinct, it would pass 145 to 3, with 15 abstentions...
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    So you are declaring to be a prophet of God, meaning that God personally told you exactly how this will happen?
    My task is to promote what the Prophets Wrote.
    I am a messenger or a proclaimer for the Prophets, as my given name means. Strongs- H3744 & G2784

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    My task is to promote what the Prophets Wrote.
    I am a messenger or a proclaimer for the Prophets, as my given name means. Strongs- H3744 & G2784
    You are dodging the question.

    Did God tell you to disagree with every theologian and scientist or did you come up with it on your own?

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    You are dodging the question.

    Did God tell you to disagree with every theologian and scientist or did you come up with it on your own?
    What God told us thru Daniel 12:9 was that the Words would be kept secret until the time of the end.
    As we are only now at that time, so any theologian, commentator or TV evangelist, who 'interpreted' Bible prophecy before now; would be wrong. This truth can easily be seen by the proliferation of movies, books and internet fiction we have had so far.

    I don't disagree with genuine scientific facts. But many, if not most, have an agenda to promote, also they avoid being too much 'doom and gloom'.

    What the QUESTION is, Keck; is are you going to believe the actual Words of the Prophets or not? With the critical one of Isaiah 30:26a, it seems not.

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    But if one is also expecting a literal person to be literally sitting in it, why would this person take up residence in a place that wasn't an entire temple? Speaking of that, I have heard of God taking up residence in a temple before, that His presence was there, but I'm not certain that any single human being has ever done something such as that though.
    It isn't about living in it. It is about taking the sacrifices offered to God for oneself in the place which is holy to God.
    Take the simple example found with Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Did he reside in the temple? No. He simply took the the place and perverted it.
    The AC will pervert worship at that place having shown himself as god. How does he do that? By killing the 2W who had been able to kill anyone else previously who had tried.

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It isn't about living in it. It is about taking the sacrifices offered to God for oneself in the place which is holy to God.
    Take the simple example found with Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Did he reside in the temple? No. He simply took the the place and perverted it.
    The AC will pervert worship at that place having shown himself as god. How does he do that? By killing the 2W who had been able to kill anyone else previously who had tried.
    But don't most, though maybe not you as well, those who see a literal temple in 2 Thess 2, take the following in a literal sense? so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Don't a lot of them take 'sitteth' in the literal sense, as if this one might have a literal throne set up in there?

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What God told us thru Daniel 12:9 was that the Words would be kept secret until the time of the end.
    As we are only now at that time, so any theologian, commentator or TV evangelist, who 'interpreted' Bible prophecy before now; would be wrong. This truth can easily be seen by the proliferation of movies, books and internet fiction we have had so far.

    I don't disagree with genuine scientific facts. But many, if not most, have an agenda to promote, also they avoid being too much 'doom and gloom'.

    What the QUESTION is, Keck; is are you going to believe the actual Words of the Prophets or not? With the critical one of Isaiah 30:26a, it seems not.
    The fact the book was sealed until the time of the end, which obviously means it couldn't be fully understood until at least that time, and like you pointed out, that makes any past interpreters wrong if they thought they fully understood something before the time when one actually can. That would be like saying one gets an encrypted msg and fully understands it before it's even decoded.

  8. #53
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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The fact the book was sealed until the time of the end, which obviously means it couldn't be fully understood until at least that time, and like you pointed out, that makes any past interpreters wrong if they thought they fully understood something before the time when one actually can. That would be like saying one gets an encrypted msg and fully understands it before it's even decoded.
    It means when the time of the end has come then it should be clear.
    As that time of the end was 2000 years ago it isn't difficult to understand.
    Further the meaning isn't that people won't understand, but rather that there will be no further Revelation about it.

    Think to what it meant for Jesus to break the seals in revelation.
    It was in order that we would have a new revelation not previously received.

  9. #54
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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    But don't most, though maybe not you as well, those who see a literal temple in 2 Thess 2, take the following in a literal sense? so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Don't a lot of them take 'sitteth' in the literal sense, as if this one might have a literal throne set up in there?
    I take it literally, not as living there but as having physically gone there. There is NO way to understand it symbolically.
    If I were to enter the House of Parliament and declare myself King sitting down on the throne, then everyone would see and know what my claim was. I wouldn't then remain there, but would then go to my palace.
    However in Revelation 13 we are told about an image which is placed, which fits the AoD description.

    So taking my example further, it would be like after claiming to be king and demanding fealty, I then leave a statue of myself seated there. A statue that can talk (Rev 13:15).

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post

    What the QUESTION is, Keck; is are you going to believe the actual Words of the Prophets or not? With the critical one of Isaiah 30:26a, it seems not.
    How many times do I and others have to tell you that your interpretations are not the standard of whether we believe the Bible or not? Just stop already.

    I don't read 30:26 as you interpret it. Add to that every theologian disagrees with your interpretation of 30:26, and I am more comfortable in the council of many that I am with someone who has demonstrated bad theological interpretations in the past.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There are not two great tribulations in the NT era, where one involves the tribulation of the Jews where many of them were killed during the events of 70 AD, and another GT that involves the persecution of the church. In Matt 24 it only mentions 1 GT and not more than one instead.

    I have heard some conclude that what happened to people during Noah's flood where everyone drowned that were not aboard the ark, that this was tribulation upon them. This was not tribulation upon them, this was judgment upon them. The same is true of the unbelieving Jews that were killed during the events of 70 AD. This was not tribulation on them, this was judgment on them. You might argue that tribulation and judgment are one and the same, but if that were true, the fact the church goes through tribulation, who is it then that has pronounced judgment on them? It for certain can't be God that has.
    I'm not saying the words "judgment" and "tribulation" mean the exact same things. In this case both elements are involved in the exact same event. That is, the 70 AD event included both judgment and tribulation.

    Again, I would reiterate to you that *my view* of the Great Tribulation is not limited to the 1st Jewish War 66-73 AD. On the contrary, the fall of the temple in 70 AD was but the beginning of an *age-long* Great Tribulation of the Jewish People.

    And I would emphasize, once again, that the Great Tribulation Jesus here spoke of concerned the *Jewish People.* Only indirectly did it point to other nations. This was a Great Tribulation to fall as *punishment* upon the Jewish People for rejecting their Messiah. But it also included Jewish believers, who accepted Jesus as their Messiah, because as Jews they would be rendered homeless along with the vast majority of Jews who were actually being *punished.*

    So the Great Tribulation began as both a punishment, or judgment, and a tribulation. The 70 AD fall of the temple was God's judgment against failed Jewish religion, but it also involved, as innocent casualties, Jewish believers, who would not only be rendered homeless, but would also continue to suffer abuse, just as Jesus had.

    Why Christians here continue to see the 70 AD judgment as the sole event involved in this "Jewish punishment" I don't know? Jesus plainly said, in Luke 21, that following the fall of the temple the Jews would be distributed throughout all nations, so that the Jewish punishment continues *throughout the age,* until the times of the Gentiles are completed. This is clearly an *age-long* punishment, and not just the 1st Jewish War!

    Cutting short this Tribulation period thus is the cutting off of an entire *age* of tribulation, rather than simply the termination point of the 1st Jewish War in 63 AD! The severity of this Tribulation is not measured by the atrocities of 66-73 AD alone, but rather, by the sheer length and duration of this Great Tribulation, lasting as it does for 2000 years! It is the *length* of the Tribulation that makes it the worst Jewish Tribulation in history, and not the severity of the atrocities limited to the fall of Jerusalem in the 1st two centuries!

    I can see why many on this Forum reject my position, because they begin with the presupposition that the Great Tribulation is either the 1st Jewish War or the Reign of Antichrist. It is one or the other, but not, as I indicated, an age-long period of suffering for the Jewish People, both believers and unbelievers. But my position is, I think, part of the historic position regarding the Great Tribulation, and should be seriously considered. If this is the correct position many on this Forum here are bound to discuss this subject fruitlessly, never able to arrive at an acceptable conclusion. In fact, the definition I use for the "Great Tribulation" is precisely what Jesus said it is, an age-long period of Jewish dislocation, following the fall of Jerusalem, and lasting until the end of the age.

    Luke 21.
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

  12. #57
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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There are not two great tribulations in the NT era, where one involves the tribulation of the Jews where many of them were killed during the events of 70 AD, and another GT that involves the persecution of the church. In Matt 24 it only mentions 1 GT and not more than one instead.

    I have heard some conclude that what happened to people during Noah's flood where everyone drowned that were not aboard the ark, that this was tribulation upon them. This was not tribulation upon them, this was judgment upon them. The same is true of the unbelieving Jews that were killed during the events of 70 AD. This was not tribulation on them, this was judgment on them. You might argue that tribulation and judgment are one and the same, but if that were true, the fact the church goes through tribulation, who is it then that has pronounced judgment on them? It for certain can't be God that has.
    I'm not saying the words "judgment" and "tribulation" mean the exact same things. In this case both elements are involved in the exact same event. That is, the 70 AD event included both judgment and tribulation.

    Again, I would reiterate to you that *my view* of the Great Tribulation is not limited to the 1st Jewish War 66-73 AD. On the contrary, the fall of the temple in 70 AD was but the beginning of an *age-long* Great Tribulation of the Jewish People.

    And I would emphasize, once again, that the Great Tribulation Jesus here spoke of concerned the *Jewish People.* Only indirectly did it point to other nations. This was a Great Tribulation to fall as *punishment* upon the Jewish People for rejecting their Messiah. But it also included Jewish believers, who accepted Jesus as their Messiah, because as Jews they would be rendered homeless along with the vast majority of Jews who were actually being *punished.*

    So the Great Tribulation began as both a punishment, or judgment, and a tribulation. The 70 AD fall of the temple was God's judgment against failed Jewish religion, but it also involved, as innocent casualties, Jewish believers, who would not only be rendered homeless, but would also continue to suffer abuse, just as Jesus had.

    Why Christians here continue to see the 70 AD judgment as the sole event involved in this "Jewish punishment" I don't know? Jesus plainly said, in Luke 21, that following the fall of the temple the Jews would be distributed throughout all nations, so that the Jewish punishment continues *throughout the age,* until the times of the Gentiles are completed. This is clearly an *age-long* punishment, and not just the 1st Jewish War!

    Cutting short this Tribulation period thus is the cutting off of an entire *age* of tribulation, rather than simply the termination point of the 1st Jewish War in 63 AD! The severity of this Tribulation is not measured by the atrocities of 66-73 AD alone, but rather, by the sheer length and duration of this Great Tribulation, lasting as it does for 2000 years! It is the *length* of the Tribulation that makes it the worst Jewish Tribulation in history, and not the severity of the atrocities limited to the fall of Jerusalem in the 1st two centuries!

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I take the GT to be meaning the 42 month reign of the beast, as shown in Rev 13. If the first 6 vials of wrath have been pouring out on them during this 42 months, I see it making no sense at all that any of them could be saying peace and safety. That doesn't compute if they have been bombarded with vials of wrath during that time. I instead think it makes far better sense that the GT runs it's course first, then the vials of wrath begin to be poured out after that. This seems to agree with the following.
    Actually, you just contradicted yourself, just by your mention of that 42 months of Rev.13.

    That 42 month period is written in Rev.11 also, and is the time when God's two witnesses will prophesy against the beast, and have control of plagues and rain upon the earth. it's represented in days for God's two witnesses, but it's the same period of Rev.13. That is... great tribulation timing also, when the beast is reigning. So if you believe the 42 months period of Rev.13 is real, then you must also admit the 42 month period of Rev.11 is also real.

    And if you simply read the Rev.11:10 verse, the nations will be joyed when the two witnesses lay dead in the street of Jerusalem. So you cannot just limit Apostle Paul's claim about the wicked in the end declaring peace and safety when the "day of the Lord" comes with a "sudden destruction" upon them on the last day of this world.


    So nice job at trying to create a wedge into the Scripture so you can insert a false idea about the events of the end, but it won't work. Paul and Peter were clear on how the end will be:



    1 Thess 5:2-3
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    KJV


    2 Peter 3:10-12
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    KJV

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    There are not two great tribulations in the NT era, where one involves the tribulation of the Jews where many of them were killed during the events of 70 AD, and another GT that involves the persecution of the church. In Matt 24 it only mentions 1 GT and not more than one instead.

    I have heard some conclude that what happened to people during Noah's flood where everyone drowned that were not aboard the ark, that this was tribulation upon them. This was not tribulation upon them, this was judgment upon them. The same is true of the unbelieving Jews that were killed during the events of 70 AD. This was not tribulation on them, this was judgment on them. You might argue that tribulation and judgment are one and the same, but if that were true, the fact the church goes through tribulation, who is it then that has pronounced judgment on them? It for certain can't be God that has.
    I'm not saying the words "judgment" and "tribulation" mean the exact same things. In this case both elements are involved in the exact same event. That is, the 70 AD event included both judgment and tribulation.

    Again, I would reiterate to you that *my view* of the Great Tribulation is not limited to the 1st Jewish War 66-73 AD. On the contrary, the fall of the temple in 70 AD was but the beginning of an *age-long* Great Tribulation of the Jewish People.

    And I would emphasize, once again, that the Great Tribulation Jesus here spoke of concerned the *Jewish People.* Only indirectly did it point to other nations. This was a Great Tribulation to fall as *punishment* upon the Jewish People for rejecting their Messiah. But it also included Jewish believers, who accepted Jesus as their Messiah, because as Jews they would be rendered homeless along with the vast majority of Jews who were actually being *punished.*

    So the Great Tribulation began as both a punishment, or judgment, and a tribulation. The 70 AD fall of the temple was God's judgment against failed Jewish religion, but it also involved, as innocent casualties, Jewish believers, who would not only be rendered homeless, but would also continue to suffer abuse, just as Jesus had.

    Why Christians here continue to see the 70 AD judgment as the sole event involved in this "Jewish punishment" I don't know? Jesus plainly said, in Luke 21, that following the fall of the temple the Jews would be distributed throughout all nations, so that the Jewish punishment continues *throughout the age,* until the times of the Gentiles are completed. This is clearly an *age-long* punishment, and not just the 1st Jewish War! Cutting short this Tribulation period thus is the cutting off of an entire *age* of tribulation, rather than simply the termination point of the 1st Jewish War in 63 AD! The severity of this Tribulation is not measured by the atrocities of 66-73 AD alone, but rather, by the sheer length and duration of this Great Tribulation, lasting as it does for 2000 years! It is the *length* of the Tribulation that makes it the worst Jewish Tribulation in history, and not the severity of the atrocities limited to the fall of Jerusalem in the 1st two centuries!

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    Re: What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Actually, you just contradicted yourself, just by your mention of that 42 months of Rev.13.

    That 42 month period is written in Rev.11 also, and is the time when God's two witnesses will prophesy against the beast, and have control of plagues and rain upon the earth. it's represented in days for God's two witnesses, but it's the same period of Rev.13. That is... great tribulation timing also, when the beast is reigning. So if you believe the 42 months period of Rev.13 is real, then you must also admit the 42 month period of Rev.11 is also real.

    And if you simply read the Rev.11:10 verse, the nations will be joyed when the two witnesses lay dead in the street of Jerusalem. So you cannot just limit Apostle Paul's claim about the wicked in the end declaring peace and safety when the "day of the Lord" comes with a "sudden destruction" upon them on the last day of this world.


    So nice job at trying to create a wedge into the Scripture so you can insert a false idea about the events of the end, but it won't work. Paul and Peter were clear on how the end will be:



    1 Thess 5:2-3
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    KJV


    2 Peter 3:10-12
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    KJV
    Unlike you in this case, I'm able to logically reason through this while you apparently are not.

    So you don't get it then. The 2Ws are not made war against, then overcome, then killed, during their testimony. It is after they prophecy that they are then made war against by the beast. The beast in Rev 13 makes war during it's 42 month reign, therefore, the 42 months mentioned in Rev 11:2 is not referring to the same period of time the 2Ws prophesy, but is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13, where that period of time does not run concurrect with the period of time the 2Ws prophesy, but begins after they have finished their testimony.

    Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


    Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


    Deny it all you want though, but these 2Ws are obviously saints as well. And if they are prophesying when the beast is reigning 42 months, why isn't the beast waging war on them as well during that time? What I have underlined in Rev 13 proves the beast does not make war against any saints except during his 42 month reign. And what I have underlined in Rev 11 proves the 2Ws are not made war against by the beast during their testimony. I therefore haven't contradicted myself in the least. You are simply not thinking some of these things all the way through. And besides, if the 70th week of Daniel 9 is indeed future still, that week requires a 7 year period in order to fulfill it. The 42 months the 2W give their testimony, plus the 42 month reign of the beast, add it up. What does it equal? 7 years obviously.

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