What the Great Tribulation Really Will Be

[ForHisglory]

If this is fulfilled in our day and time, which I agree that it is, and that if it is supposed to involve the literal city of Jerusalem, that means there also has to be a temple there, except there is no temple there.

Which simply means it is not yet.
However all that is required is the altar and a Holy Place. No need for the full temple to be built.
Note the situation when the exiles first returned to Israel.
It was 21 years roughly before the temple was built, but an altar and sacrifice etc was all set up within a short period of time.

[Fenris]

I can stand it; the ancient prophets had it much worse; they were killed for the prophesies they made.

Lawl, and now you're comparing yourself to the prophets of old.

And Fenris: my feelings don't count for anything; it's the rejection of what the prophets actually Wrote, that concerns me.

I don't reject anything the prophets said; I disagree with your interpretation of what they said. For someone who condemns most of humanity to hellfire you're a very sensitive person. Almost....almost as if you can dish it out but not take it. Let's look at your post of the month material. Again. because it's so deliciously ironic:

Dave, your unsupported opinion is wrong and your comment is rude and unacceptable. People who see the prophesies differently than you, are not in error unless proved to be.

[divaD]

Which simply means it is not yet.
However all that is required is the altar and a Holy Place. No need for the full temple to be built.
Note the situation when the exiles first returned to Israel.
It was 21 years roughly before the temple was built, but an altar and sacrifice etc was all set up within a short period of time.

But if one is also expecting a literal person to be literally sitting in it, why would this person take up residence in a place that wasn't an entire temple? Speaking of that, I have heard of God taking up residence in a temple before, that His presence was there, but I'm not certain that any single human being has ever done something such as that though.

[keck553]

This is poorly reasoned. The LOCATION is Jerusalem, therefore what occurs on the Sabbath effects things in Jerusalem.
What this highlights is that it will NOT be a long period of months as some claim, or as happened in 66 - 70 AD, but a very short period of time. This is in distinction to Luke 21 where there is NO pray it isn't the Sabbath, when they did have time to settle their affairs and leave.

Also Messianic Jews may well be affected by the Sabbath, just as Jesus and the Disciples were.

Actually the event Jesus described was on 9/10 Tisha B'Av. Jesus wasn't talking about sieges, He was talking about the actual sacking of the city. It was not months long, it happened in a day.

[keck553]

I provided scripture that proved the Lord's Day of fiery wrath will come from the sun; Isaiah 30:26a
Where is your proof of a GRB coming from a distant galaxy, being the source and being capable of fulfilling all the prophesies about that Day?

Two problems with your theory:

1. Every single theologian disagrees with your interpretation of Isaiah 30

2. Every single astrophysicist disagrees with your theory of a CME causing the type of destruction you attribute to CME's.

What you need to provide is your credentials that you:

1. Are a superior theologian to all the modern theologians and the theologians who have interpreted Isaiah 30 for the past 2 millennia, as they all disagree with your interpretation

2. Your degree in astrophysics and a detailed scientific explanation of why every astrophysicist disagrees with your CME theory. (a white paper would be necessary)

[keck553]

I can stand it; the ancient prophets had it much worse; they were killed for the prophesies they made.
Verbal abuse doesn't hurt me, but it does give those who abuse their fellow Christians a very low reputation. And Fenris: my feelings don't count for anything; it's the rejection of what the prophets actually Wrote, that concerns me.

But the really sad thing in all of this, is the beliefs held by the opposers of the prophesies, namely the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church and the general Redemption of the Jewish people, are not to be found in the Bible.
Amazing; they reject the truth and embrace lies!

So you are declaring to be a prophet of God, meaning that God personally told you exactly how this will happen?

[keck553]

Lawl, and now you're comparing yourself to the prophets of old.

That literally means that he's declaring his posts Scripture.

[Fenris]

That literally means that he's declaring his posts Scripture.

I guess that means anyone who disagrees with him is in violation of Deuteronomy 18:15.

[keck553]

I guess that means anyone who disagrees with him is in violation of Deuteronomy 18:15.

Yikes. As you probably know we Christians already have that box checked

[randyk]

And I have said the following before....such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be....does not make sense if meaning the past 2000 years combined. And if meaning only 70 AD, the GT then can't span 2000 years and still agree with...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. I'm almost 61 and live in the USA. I can't recall a single time in all of those years where the following would have been true at any time...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Church Fathers disagreed with you. The worst tribulation the Jews experienced in history was the one that began in 70 AD, taking away the Jews' place of worship for all time, and leading to a time of homelessness for the Jewish People, which by the time of the Church Fathers was already hundreds of years. Today, we can look back and see that this Jewish "punishment" continues even today, since Israel is persecuted in her own land, in the country of Israel. Not all exiles have returned. And not even in Israel are the Jews given rest by nations outside of her.

Look at any of the punishments the Hebrew people have experienced collectively. How long did they last? They didn't last near as long as the punishment of the current "Jewish Diaspora," which has lasted approx. 2000 years!

Tertullian: Since, therefore, the Jews were predicted as destined to suffer these calamities on Christ’s account, and we find that they have suffered them, and see them sent into dispersion and abiding in it, manifest it is that it is on Christ’s account that these things have befallen the Jews, the sense of the Scriptures harmonizing with the issue of events and of the order of the times.

Chrysostom: Because what things befell them in the time of Vespasian and Titus, were very far more grievous than those. Wherefore also He said, "There shall be great tribulation, such as never was, neither shall be."
What then did He after these things? Since they were not willing to come, yea and also slew those that came unto them; He burns up their cities, and sent His armies and slew them.
And these things He saith, declaring beforehand the things that took place under Vespasian and Titus, and that they provoked the father also, by not believing in Him; it is the father at any rate who was avenging.
And for this reason let me add, not straightway after Christ was slain did the capture take place, but after forty years, that He might show His long suffering, when they had slain Stephen, when they had put James to death, when they had spitefully entreated the apostles.
Seest thou the truth of the event, and its quickness? For while John was yet living, and many other of them that were with Christ, these things came to pass, and they that had heard these words were witnesses of the events.

Eusebius: But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable — all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

The Dispersion of the Jews was not given, by Jesus, to be a one-time event, taking place in 70 AD. On the contrary, the Dispersion, by its very nature, takes years and years. And the period of exile makes it even longer. Finally, waiting until the spiritual restoration promised in Zechariah makes us waiting still, for the deliverance of Israel.

No, Jesus said the Tribulation that began in 70 AD would continue "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." The Jews' problems will only fully end at the 2nd Coming of Christ. This is the worst tribulation in history for *length of time!*

[Fenris]

Look at any of the punishments the Hebrew people have experienced collectively. How long did they last? They didn't last near as long as the punishment of the current "Jewish Diaspora," which has lasted approx. 2000 years!

"And it pleased the Lord to crush him".

[randyk]

"And it pleased the Lord to crush him".

Yes, in some ways we are all "crushed." Israel is the prototype for the nations. We all suffer. Out of that suffering some will achieve salvation. Israel will be saved. But let's pray together that the Lord will "crush" Hamas in the U.N. today. Terrorists have no place anywhere!

[divaD]

The Church Fathers disagreed with you. The worst tribulation the Jews experienced in history was the one that began in 70 AD, taking away the Jews' place of worship for all time, and leading to a time of homelessness for the Jewish People, which by the time of the Church Fathers was already hundreds of years. Today, we can look back and see that this Jewish "punishment" continues even today, since Israel is persecuted in her own land, in the country of Israel. Not all exiles have returned. And not even in Israel are the Jews given rest by nations outside of her.

Look at any of the punishments the Hebrew people have experienced collectively. How long did they last? They didn't last near as long as the punishment of the current "Jewish Diaspora," which has lasted approx. 2000 years!

Tertullian: Since, therefore, the Jews were predicted as destined to suffer these calamities on Christ’s account, and we find that they have suffered them, and see them sent into dispersion and abiding in it, manifest it is that it is on Christ’s account that these things have befallen the Jews, the sense of the Scriptures harmonizing with the issue of events and of the order of the times.

The Dispersion of the Jews was not given, by Jesus, to be a one-time event, taking place in 70 AD. On the contrary, the Dispersion, by its very nature, takes years and years. And the period of exile makes it even longer. Finally, waiting until the spiritual restoration promised in Zechariah makes us waiting still, for the deliverance of Israel.

No, Jesus said the Tribulation that began in 70 AD would continue "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." The Jews' problems will only fully end at the 2nd Coming of Christ. This is the worst tribulation in history for *length of time!*

Yet the GT involves the persecution of the church, IOW the persecution of Christians, and not the persecution of the unbelieving Jews instead. But if I am wrong though, prove the following involves the persecution of unbelieving Jews in the first century where countless numbers of them were killed by the Romans during the destroying of Jerusalem.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Not one single person would argue that any of these are unbelieving Jews who came out of GT during the events of 70 AD.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How can the same GT not be meant in both passages?

[randyk]

Yet the GT involves the persecution of the church, IOW the persecution of Christians, and not the persecution of the unbelieving Jews instead. But if I am wrong though, prove the following involves the persecution of unbelieving Jews in the first century where countless numbers of them were killed by the Romans during the destroying of Jerusalem.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Not one single person would argue that any of these are unbelieving Jews who came out of GT during the events of 70 AD.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How can the same GT not be meant in both passages?

David: I agree that Christians from all nations emerge out of the Great Tribulation of the age, and out of the Great Tribulation of the Reign of Antichrist. My argument does not ignore that, but it is separate from it. Let me review it for you again....

The Great Tribulation, as most of the Church Fathers saw it, was a Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, who were being punished for their rejection of Christ. They had rejected the true Anointed One, and the true Temple from Heaven. And so their symbol of Jewish worship, the temple, was destroyed, or desolated. And the Jewish People, who had turned to internal lawlessness and hatred, were sent into an age-long "captivity," of sorts. It dwarfs the Babylonian Captivity, by comparison. The Jewish Diaspora is the worst, and longest, disaster in Jewish history! And that is what I believe Jesus was predicting when he said armies would surround the Holy City, desolate it, and carry away the Jewish People captive. Jesus said they would be sent into international exile "until the times of the Gentiles are completed." This refers to an age-long period of Jewish Dispersion. It is the NT Jewish Diaspora Jesus was speaking of, at a time before the Gentile nations were not even yet approached with the Gospel!

This Great Tribulation had a couple of facets to it, which are important to note, if you're to understand the questions you're dealing me. There are both unbelieving and believing elements among the Jewish People. The Great Tribulation concerns both of these elements. The Fall of Jerusalem was designed for the unbelieving Jews, but affected believing Jews as well.

So we have to look at how this Great Tribulation affected each of these elements. The unbelievers were destroyed in Jerusalem or carried away into exile. The believers, on the other hand, were given inside information on how to escape the Roman invasion. They escaped to Pella. The judgment was not for them, but it would indeed affect them.

So the way the 70 AD judgment affected Jewish believers was that it deprived them of a land and a home, and made them subject both to hostile Gentile forces and hostile Jewish forces. Jewish unbelievers would persecute them. And pagan Gentiles would also persecute them. And yet, this judgment against Jerusalem would not be aimed at them by God!

This Jewish experience in the early Church was a prototype for the Church of all nations. What happened to the Jewish Church would happen to churches throughout the nations. And so, in the book of Revelation, we see the international Church emerging from the Great Tribulation of the age, which affects both Jews in Diaspora and Christians anywhere.

But the Great Tribulation is, first of all, a Jewish Tribulation. It represents God's judgment against the Jewish People for their treatment of Christ. Jesus used this event to highlight what would happen to his disciples in the midst of this national tragedy. And this is the prototype for all nations, since all nations fall short, leaving Christians in a difficult situation.

[divaD]

David: I agree that Christians from all nations emerge out of the Great Tribulation of the age, and out of the Great Tribulation of the Reign of Antichrist. My argument does not ignore that, but it is separate from it. Let me review it for you again....

The Great Tribulation, as most of the Church Fathers saw it, was a Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, who were being punished for their rejection of Christ. They had rejected the true Anointed One, and the true Temple from Heaven. And so their symbol of Jewish worship, the temple, was destroyed, or desolated. And the Jewish People, who had turned to internal lawlessness and hatred, were sent into an age-long "captivity," of sorts. It dwarfs the Babylonian Captivity, by comparison. The Jewish Diaspora is the worst, and longest, disaster in Jewish history! And that is what I believe Jesus was predicting when he said armies would surround the Holy City, desolate it, and carry away the Jewish People captive. Jesus said they would be sent into international exile "until the times of the Gentiles are completed." This refers to an age-long period of Jewish Dispersion. It is the NT Jewish Diaspora Jesus was speaking of, at a time before the Gentile nations were not even yet approached with the Gospel!

This Great Tribulation had a couple of facets to it, which are important to note, if you're to understand the questions you're dealing me. There are both unbelieving and believing elements among the Jewish People. The Great Tribulation concerns both of these elements. The Fall of Jerusalem was designed for the unbelieving Jews, but affected believing Jews as well.

So we have to look at how this Great Tribulation affected each of these elements. The unbelievers were destroyed in Jerusalem or carried away into exile. The believers, on the other hand, were given inside information on how to escape the Roman invasion. They escaped to Pella. The judgment was not for them, but it would indeed affect them.

So the way the 70 AD judgment affected Jewish believers was that it deprived them of a land and a home, and made them subject both to hostile Gentile forces and hostile Jewish forces. Jewish unbelievers would persecute them. And pagan Gentiles would also persecute them. And yet, this judgment against Jerusalem would not be aimed at them by God!

This Jewish experience in the early Church was a prototype for the Church of all nations. What happened to the Jewish Church would happen to churches throughout the nations. And so, in the book of Revelation, we see the international Church emerging from the Great Tribulation of the age, which affects both Jews in Diaspora and Christians anywhere.

But the Great Tribulation is, first of all, a Jewish Tribulation. It represents God's judgment against the Jewish People for their treatment of Christ. Jesus used this event to highlight what would happen to his disciples in the midst of this national tragedy. And this is the prototype for all nations, since all nations fall short, leaving Christians in a difficult situation.

There are not two great tribulations in the NT era, where one involves the tribulation of the Jews where many of them were killed during the events of 70 AD, and another GT that involves the persecution of the church. In Matt 24 it only mentions 1 GT and not more than one instead.

I have heard some conclude that what happened to people during Noah's flood where everyone drowned that were not aboard the ark, that this was tribulation upon them. This was not tribulation upon them, this was judgment upon them. The same is true of the unbelieving Jews that were killed during the events of 70 AD. This was not tribulation on them, this was judgment on them. You might argue that tribulation and judgment are one and the same, but if that were true, the fact the church goes through tribulation, who is it then that has pronounced judgment on them? It for certain can't be God that has.