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Thread: When will the OT saints arise?

  1. #211
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Your disagreement is with what Christ said was possible not with me. I am only quoting Christ. Christ has a way of unsettling those who have preset viewpoints. Scripture must have more authority than our beliefs. Again I quote Christ, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
    Looks like you enjoy arguing for the sake of argument. If the commandments were sufficient to be saved, Jesus would not have died, would he? Since the rich young man told Jesus that he observed the law all his life, Jesus would have congratulated and asked him to keep on with the law. Instead, he told him to come and follow him. The inference being that following Jesus is a better assurance of eternal life, than the commandments.

  2. #212
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Perfection is the same as incorruption. See 1 Cor 15:42-44
    In the context of the passage we are discussing, there is obtaining eternal life, then something else if one wants to do more than just obtain eternal life.

    In this passage perfection is not equal to eternal life but is something more.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #213
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Looks like you enjoy arguing for the sake of argument. If the commandments were sufficient to be saved, Jesus would not have died, would he?
    Of course he would and did. Also, there is no "If the commandments were sufficient to be saved" here. Christ said, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." and so far only I agree with Christ.


    Since the rich young man told Jesus that he observed the law all his life, Jesus would have congratulated and asked him to keep on with the law.
    He did not say that so why assume that is what should have been said?

    Instead, he told him to come and follow him.
    Only if he wanted more than eternal life.


    The inference being that following Jesus is a better assurance of eternal life, than the commandments.
    He didn't say to sell everything and follow him to obtain eternal life. He already gave what was required for that. You are changing what he said by negating what he said about the commandments and focusing solely on what he said if one wanted perfection after doing what was needed for eternal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Looks like you enjoy arguing for the sake of argument. If the commandments were sufficient to be saved, Jesus would not have died, would he?
    Of course he would and did. Also, there is no "if" here. Christ said, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." and so far only I agree with Christ.


    Since the rich young man told Jesus that he observed the law all his life, Jesus would have congratulated and asked him to keep on with the law.
    He did not say that so why assume that is what should have been said?

    Instead, he told him to come and follow him.
    Only if he wanted more than eternal life.


    The inference being that following Jesus is a better assurance of eternal life, than the commandments.
    He didn't say to sell everything and follow him to obtain eternal life. He already gave what was required for that. You are changing what he said by negating what he said about the commandments and focusing solely on what he said if one wanted perfection after doing what was needed for eternal life.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    In the context of the passage we are discussing, there is obtaining eternal life, then something else if one wants to do more than just obtain eternal life.

    In this passage perfection is not equal to eternal life but is something more.
    If this is your position, perhaps it will help if you can explain HOW 'perfection' differs from 'eternal life'? If I understand this from your point of view, it will enable me to respond further.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    In the context of the passage we are discussing, there is obtaining eternal life, then something else if one wants to do more than just obtain eternal life.

    In this passage perfection is not equal to eternal life but is something more.
    If this is your position, perhaps it will help if you can explain HOW 'perfection' differs from 'eternal life'? If I understand this from your point of view, it will enable me to respond further.

  5. #215
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Of course he would and did. Also, there is no "If the commandments were sufficient to be saved" here. Christ said, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." and so far only I agree with Christ.
    Have you read Gal 3:2 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    Only if he wanted more than eternal life.
    It will be interesting to hear what you believe is better or MORE than eternal life.

    He didn't say to sell everything and follow him to obtain eternal life. He already gave what was required for that. You are changing what he said by negating what he said about the commandments and focusing solely on what he said if one wanted perfection after doing what was needed for eternal life.
    This will be resolved as soon as you tell your readers why perfection is better and different from eternal life.

  6. #216
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If this is your position, perhaps it will help if you can explain HOW 'perfection' differs from 'eternal life'? If I understand this from your point of view, it will enable me to respond further.
    I've done that many times already.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #217
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Have you read Gal 3:2 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    That doesn't contradict what Christ said. Christ spoke of keeping the commandments to get eternal life. Paul is saying no commandment gave life. Neither contradicts the other.


    It will be interesting to hear what you believe is better or MORE than eternal life.
    I've explained that before also so repeating myself isn't going to help IMO. Just go back and re-read our exchanges. I wrote a decent paragraph on this not long ago.

    This will be resolved as soon as you tell your readers why perfection is better and different from eternal life.
    They already know this if they read my posts.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That doesn't contradict what Christ said. Christ spoke of keeping the commandments to get eternal life. Paul is saying no commandment gave life. Neither contradicts the other.
    Your interpretation of what Jesus said CONTRADICTS what Paul stated.
    Jesus did NOT say if you ONLY keep the commandments then this is enough for eternal life. You truncate what He stated.

  9. #219
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I've done that many times already.
    If you have already done that, I must have missed it. Is it a problem to either provide the link, copy and paste it or provide a fresh account?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I've done that many times already.
    If you have already done that, I must have missed it. Is it a problem to either provide the link, copy and paste it or provide a fresh account?

  10. #220
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That doesn't contradict what Christ said. Christ spoke of keeping the commandments to get eternal life. Paul is saying no commandment gave life. Neither contradicts the other.
    1. Keep the commandment to GET ETERNAL LIFE.
    2. No commandment GAVE LIFE.

    You don't see the contradiction?
    It is because the commandment doesn't give life that Jesus asked the rich young man to come and follow him.


    I've explained that before also so repeating myself isn't going to help IMO. Just go back and re-read our exchanges. I wrote a decent paragraph on this not long ago.



    They already know this if they read my posts.[/QUOTE]

  11. #221
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. Keep the commandment to GET ETERNAL LIFE.
    2. No commandment GAVE LIFE.

    You don't see the contradiction?
    It is because the commandment doesn't give life that Jesus asked the rich young man to come and follow him.
    Christ said commandments not commandment. Again, Christ and Paul do not contradict each other. One could get eternal life by keeping the commandments. No one commandment gave life.

    "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #222
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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christ said commandments not commandment. Again, Christ and Paul do not contradict each other. One could get eternal life by keeping the commandments. No one commandment gave life.

    "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
    You clearly are wrong as the commandments (plural) are the law (singular), yet Paul stated the law could not give life:
    Gal 3:11* Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law

    If you are NOT justified THEN you CANNOT have eternal life.
    You are like a reporter who ONLY reports the first sentence stated by someone and misses the next statement. You are taking a single verse OUT OF CONTEXT and creating your own PRETEXT.

    Gal 3:24* So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christ said commandments not commandment. Again, Christ and Paul do not contradict each other. One could get eternal life by keeping the commandments. No one commandment gave life.

    "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
    You clearly are wrong as the commandments (plural) are the law (singular), yet Paul stated the law could not give life:
    Gal 3:11* Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law

    If you are NOT justified THEN you CANNOT have eternal life.
    You are like a reporter who ONLY reports the first sentence stated by someone and misses the next statement. You are taking a single verse OUT OF CONTEXT and creating your own PRETEXT.

    Gal 3:24* So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christ said commandments not commandment. Again, Christ and Paul do not contradict each other. One could get eternal life by keeping the commandments. No one commandment gave life.

    "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
    The problem is that you've taken the position of someone living in the OT age when all they had for eternal life was adherence to the Commandments. The brief exchange between Jesus and the rich young man clearly showed a shift whereby what sufficed in the Old is no longer sufficient in the New.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Christ said commandments not commandment. Again, Christ and Paul do not contradict each other. One could get eternal life by keeping the commandments. No one commandment gave life.

    "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
    The problem is that you've taken the position of someone living in the OT age when all they had for eternal life was adherence to the Commandments. The brief exchange between Jesus and the rich young man clearly showed a shift whereby what sufficed in the Old is no longer sufficient in the New.

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    Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The problem is that you've taken the position of someone living in the OT age when all they had for eternal life was adherence to the Commandments.
    The position I have taken is to agree with what Jesus said.

    The brief exchange between Jesus and the rich young man clearly showed a shift whereby what sufficed in the Old is no longer sufficient in the New.
    That isn't remotely correct. The new covenant wasn't in effect until Christ died. Until then, it was the OC in effect and obedience to it's commandments to receive eternal life.

    What you are doing is trying to rush the new cov. into effect before it was in effect.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Cool Re: When will the OT saints arise?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The position I have taken is to agree with what Jesus said.

    That isn't remotely correct. The new covenant wasn't in effect until Christ died. Until then, it was the OC in effect and obedience to it's commandments to receive eternal life.

    What you are doing is trying to rush the new cov. into effect before it was in effect.

    What we might consider also is the whole discussion that Christ had with the wealthy young man:

    Matt. 19:17-26 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.*And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

    Now, why is it hard for the wealthy person to enter the kingdom? Reason tells us that they will automatically trust their money for sustenance, deliverance and anything else it can buy. You can't exercise faith, when you don't need bailed out once in while.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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