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Thread: Who or what is or will be the Great H

  1. #1
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    Who or what is or will be the Great H

    I’ve started this thread to discuss the identity of the great harlot. Or Babylon the great as described in the book of Revelation.

    Particularly for those who believe the RCC or Rome is the harlot spoken of in Rev 17 & 18. Here is your chance to explain “scripturally why you hold that position. Warning we are stressing scripturally.

    Anyone else who wishes to submit their position is more than welcome to do so.

    I am urging everyone to stay on topic. Don’t derail the thread. And let’s discuss this with open minds to seriously consider the plausibility of each other’s views.

    As a mod I will be watching closely for derailments and attitudes needing adjustments. I want to remind everyone to be courteous and respectful to each other since no one has all the answers. But mine do happen to be closer to the truth than anyone else.

    With that said …. Into the fray!

    I’ve watched many of these threads discussing the ID of the Great Harlot and the many different opinions of which country, city or religion (Rome , Jerusalem, RCC, Islam, etc.) is being depicted by that Great Harlot.

    By the way opinion means: a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something: what someone thinks about a particular thing. As opposed to truth meaning: the real facts about something: the things that are true: the quality or state of being true: a statement or idea that is true. “Opinion” does not equal “truth”.

    I’m no different and I have my “opinion” (defined as mentioned above) just like everyone else. I have been considering joining in these discussions but have decided for the most it would be better to simply watch and see what others have to say before I put my own plug nickel into the pot and show my hand if motivated to do so.

    The main problem I see in most of the opinions presented is although all of them may fit some verses or criteria describing the harlot in Revelation 17 and 18 none of them in my opinion fit all of them. The truth is whoever or whatever the harlot is supposed to represent must meet or fulfill all of them . And so far, no theory has accounted for “ALL” the descriptions she must scripturally meet.

    So with that, let me throw out an additional possibility for y’all to consider. I will muddy the waters and a bit more if you will allow me to do so. I’m just putting this out for you to consider … nothing more.

    When I began looking into this topic years ago. I started by doing a little research regarding the definition of harlotry. For the most part we (human) define it as forms of sexual activities outside of God’s boundaries of such. But I wanted to see how God defined it and in what contexts or situations He applied the term to.

    After looking into it I’ve come to the conclusion the Great Harlot is mankind.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  2. #2
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Just kidding about my opinions being closer to truth than others.

    Been having trouble with the site as everyone probably have noticed.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    .

    After looking into it I’ve come to the conclusion the Great Harlot is mankind.
    Could you elaborate a little bit more with that? How would that fit a woman and city?

    My problem is that the city will be destroyed...plus this scripture:
    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    “In the churches” this stands out to me that Jesus said... so this to me means the book of Revelation is talking about the NT church...it starts that way and ends that way. The question then becomes what does a “woman” represent?

    I can't say I have an opinion...since I am just now looking into it all...but I have read all the different things out on the net about it...and so far the fact that I think maybe the woman represents a NT church makes me lean more toward the RCC. However in my searching too there is another raised up and that is the WCC which I had no idea of...so if you are a member of a church who knows you could belong to it...they have quite a few different churches in it.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Could you elaborate a little bit more with that? How would that fit a woman and city?
    We see in the scriptures how man’s relationship with God is depicted by relationship where man is shown as the feminine side of things. For example, Israel is spoken of as being married to God, betrothed to God and referred to as “she”. The church is often called the bride of Christ. The relationship with God being compared to that of a man and woman as a symbol used to show intimacy with God in a way that we would understand it and could relate.

    So, the Great Harlot is referred to as a she because of the relationship with God. She is a Harlot because of her betrayal toward God to whom she rightfully belongs.

    Since mankind (all of) is the great harlot there needs to be a focal point toward which God will judge by inciting the beast and his 10 pet kings against her. The focal point is a city which has some aspect which represent the whole of mankind in an authority manner (scripture says that great city rules over the kings of the world).

    The great city is the focal point of the harlot and will be destroyed during the reign or during the rising to power of the beast. The remaining harlot (mankind) will be judged at the GWT judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    My problem is that the city will be destroyed...plus this scripture:

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    “In the churches” this stands out to me that Jesus said... so this to me means the book of Revelation is talking about the NT church...it starts that way and ends that way. The question then becomes what does a “woman” represent?
    I would say the book of Rev was written “TO” the church but not necessarily “ABOUT” the church specifically. It’s about what God planned on doing judgment wise regarding mankind. And about events He will set in motion prior to the final judgment. Both believers and unbelievers are included in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I can't say I have an opinion...since I am just now looking into it all...but I have read all the different things out on the net about it...and so far the fact that I think maybe the woman represents a NT church makes me lean more toward the RCC. However in my searching too there is another raised up and that is the WCC which I had no idea of...so if you are a member of a church who knows you could belong to it...they have quite a few different churches in it.
    I’m not familiar what WCC refers to?
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  5. #5
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Here are a few ways (or contexts in which) God uses the term harlotry. The activities they were participating in when He labeled them with harlotry determines what God considers to be harlotry.

    To depict sexual immorality : this one is pretty obvious, so I don’t believe I need to give any scriptural references. You can look them up yourself if you wish to do so.

    To depict idolatry: regardless if it’s a Gentile or a Jew committing idolatry. This is the main charge of harlotry against Israel. It is by far the most abundant reference God uses the charge of harlotry for.

    o Ex. 34:13-17 “But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim (14) –for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God—(15) otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they (not Jews) would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you (Jews) to eat of his (not Jews) sacrifice, (16) and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters (not Jews) might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons (Jews) also to play the harlot with their gods. (17) “You shall make for yourself no molten gods.”

    a. In verse 15 it says, “they would play the harlot with their gods”. The word “they” is referring to the inhabitants of the land and the word “you” is referring to the Jews. In other words when they (the inhabitants of the land: not Jews) are worshipping their own gods they (according to God) are committing harlotry.

    b. The same context continues in verse 16 regarding the daughters who are inhabitants of the land and God say that they are committing harlotry.

    c. God is labelling those belonging to the nations He was going to drive out harlots. What this passage is revealing is anyone who worships any god other than the Most High is committing harlotry. It is not restricted to the Jews who begin worshipping foreign gods.

    o Deut. 31:16 “The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.”

    To depict the seeking of demonic guidance: Lev 20:6 “As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.”

    To depict going after the “…the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, …” (1 John 2:16) Num. 15:39-40 “It shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, so as to do them and not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you played the harlot, … (40) so that you may remember to do all My commandments and be holy to your God.”

    To depict ungodly alliances with and trusting in foreign nations:

    o Isa 23:15-17 “Now in that day Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years like the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the harlot: Take your harp, walk about the city, O forgotten harlot; Pluck the strings skillfully, sing many songs, that you may be remembered. It will come about at the end of seventy years that the LORD will visit Tyre. Then she will go back to her harlot’s wages and will play the harlot with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth. (18) Her gain and her harlot’s wages will be set apart to the LORD; it will not be stored up or hoarded, but her gain will become sufficient food and choice attire for those who dwell in the presence of the LORD.” Interesting this is talking of Tyre committing harlotry and not Israel.

    O Ezek. 16:26 “You also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, and multiplied your harlotry to make Me angry.

    O Ezek. 16:28 “Moreover, you played the harlot with the Assyrians because you were not satisfied; you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied.

    The rejection of justice and righteousness:

    o Isa. 1:21 “How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.”

    a. The importance of the context here, it wasn’t idolatry that brought God’s displeasure revealed in this chapter. They were offering sacrifices and observing Sabbaths and holidays etc. It was the leadership ripe with corruption and injustice. They were not exercising justice for the orphan or widows; they were taking bribes, committing murders, etc. It is in the context of this unjust corruption of the leadership God refers to Jerusalem as a harlot.

    What these passages show is God’s definition of harlotry is broader than ours. And it is not limited or confined to Israel. This is key in determining who or what is the God is labeling the Great Harlot.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    Just kidding about my opinions being closer to truth than others.

    Been having trouble with the site as everyone probably have noticed.
    I was going to say that if you're only "close to the truth," then you're not close enough, and should not be trusted. But I also was kidding! Take care...

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Great subject, and one of the most difficult passages in the Bible! I believe the Great Harlot is Rome, called a "mystery" because Jesus did not allow John to identify her outright. John was a prisoner of Rome, and not allowed to put things out that would be taken as incendiary or seditious.

    I believe the Harlot is Rome because it is a "great city." At that time it was Rome. Jerusalem also was a "great city." But Jerusalem did not rule at that time.

    I also believe it was Rome because Daniel identified 4 beasts that would rule the world before the coming of God's Kingdom. Most agree that the 4th beast was Rome. The book of Revelation is all about the Beast, and about the "little horn" that Daniel said would emerge out of this 4th Beast. So, I believe the Antichristian Empire is a modern-day offspring of the ancient Roman Empire. And the Harlot is Rome in modern times, when the Antichrist emerges. He will destroy the city, and retain his empire in Europe.

    Rome is also the 6th king in Israel's history to dominate her. Beginning with Egypt, we have Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The 7th king may be modern Rome under the Antichrist. And Antichrist is the "8th king."

    The fact the Harlot is called "Babylon" suggests this city belongs to the 4th of the 4 beasts, which began with Babylon.

    I also believe the Harlot is Rome because she puts to death apostles and prophets. Rome did that. Rev 17.6; 18.20.

  8. #8
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    The problem is the Bible has only referred to God’s own covenant people as adulterers/harlots.

    Rome wasn’t in covenant with God.

  9. #9
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    We see in the scriptures how man’s relationship with God is depicted by relationship where man is shown as the feminine side of things. For example, Israel is spoken of as being married to God, betrothed to God and referred to as “she”. The church is often called the bride of Christ. The relationship with God being compared to that of a man and woman as a symbol used to show intimacy with God in a way that we would understand it and could relate.

    So, the Great Harlot is referred to as a she because of the relationship with God. She is a Harlot because of her betrayal toward God to whom she rightfully belongs.

    Since mankind (all of) is the great harlot there needs to be a focal point toward which God will judge by inciting the beast and his 10 pet kings against her. The focal point is a city which has some aspect which represent the whole of mankind in an authority manner (scripture says that great city rules over the kings of the world).

    The great city is the focal point of the harlot and will be destroyed during the reign or during the rising to power of the beast. The remaining harlot (mankind) will be judged at the GWT judgment.
    Ok parts make sense, but the city being destroyed to me is a reason it can't be Jerusalem. The other thing is that all of mankind is not in relationship with God...so that to me doesn't fit. To me it represents a people in relationship with God, the church. This is the other reason I think it is the church:
    Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


    I would say the book of Rev was written “TO” the church but not necessarily “ABOUT” the church specifically. It’s about what God planned on doing judgment wise regarding mankind. And about events He will set in motion prior to the final judgment. Both believers and unbelievers are included in this.
    Well I interpret that different, to me “these things in the churches” means it is things going on within the church. One thing good about it all is that the people within the church do overcome because the Lamb overcomes:
    Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    I’m not familiar what WCC refers to?
    World Council of Churches the WCC started in 1948

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    The problem is the Bible has only referred to God’s own covenant people as adulterers/harlots.

    Rome wasn’t in covenant with God.
    A city was never in covenant with God... but this harlot represents a city. So that to me fits even better about it being Vatican City. What other harlot city could it mean that is in covenant with God? Jerusalem is not a christian city...plus this city is destroyed.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    The problem is the Bible has only referred to God’s own covenant people as adulterers/harlots.

    Rome wasn’t in covenant with God.
    Here is a thought, maybe Rome is represented as the beast of which the harlot rides. This too could fit as the Holy See also called the See of Rome is what the RCC sits on.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    A city was never in covenant with God... but this harlot represents a city. So that to me fits even better about it being Vatican City. What other harlot city could it mean that is in covenant with God? Jerusalem is not a christian city...plus this city is destroyed.
    Jerusalem is referred to as the harlot many times in the Bible. No other city is - even Sodom isn’t. That is the only Scriptural evidence I see.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Here is a thought, maybe Rome is represented as the beast of which the harlot rides. This too could fit as the Holy See also called the See of Rome is what the RCC sits on.
    Rome has zero political or military power. The RCC would be sitting on a paper tiger by worldly standards. It doesn’t work.

    But Scripture supports that it could be the high priest’s collaboration with the Romans:

    “But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!" "Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked. "We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.”

    Caesar was presented as deity to the world, and demanded worship. The chief priests knew that, but rejected God’s anointed One and sent Him to His death for the love of a false god. How much worse can it get?

    I’m sticking with Scripture because conjecture is apocryphal.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Jerusalem is referred to as the harlot many times in the Bible. No other city is - even Sodom isn’t. That is the only Scriptural evidence I see.
    Why can't Jerusalem and Israel be a type and shadow for the NT church?

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Rome has zero political or military power. The RCC would be sitting on a paper tiger by worldly standards. It doesn’t work.
    Rome is the capitol city of Italy and where the president is. Obviously when talking Rome you have to go by Italy so here is a short video on their military power for you.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGQfu6m-b8

    But Scripture supports that it could be the high priest’s collaboration with the Romans:

    “But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!" "Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked. "We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.”

    Caesar was presented as deity to the world, and demanded worship. The chief priests knew that, but rejected God’s anointed One and sent Him to His death for the love of a false god. How much worse can it get?

    I’m sticking with Scripture because conjecture is apocryphal.
    It is not conjecture when the scripture doesn't line up with Jerusalem... how then do you explain this verse if it is Jerusalem?
    Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

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