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Thread: Who or what is or will be the Great H

  1. #61
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    It doesn't?

    The words son of perdition apply to two personalities in scripture..Judas being the first..Antichrist the second..

    It doesn't?

    The words son of perdition apply to two personalities in scripture..Judas being the first..Antichrist the second..
    A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

    ~ Smith Wigglesworth


  2. #62
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Again, "The phrase doesn't demand the antichrist be a supposed believer."

  3. #63
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Again, "The phrase doesn't demand the antichrist be a supposed believer."
    I agree it says this about antichrist this is not a believer:
    1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    Plus the other thing you have to look at is this:
    Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    Casting dust on the head is a middle eastern custom... now that wouldn't apply elsewhere would it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Again, "The phrase doesn't demand the antichrist be a supposed believer."
    I agree it says this about antichrist this is not a believer:
    1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    Plus the other thing you have to look at is this:
    Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    Casting dust on the head is a middle eastern custom... now that wouldn't apply elsewhere would it?

  4. #64
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Great subject, and one of the most difficult passages in the Bible! I believe the Great Harlot is Rome, called a "mystery" because Jesus did not allow John to identify her outright. John was a prisoner of Rome, and not allowed to put things out that would be taken as incendiary or seditious.
    Perhaps.

    You know there is another mystery mentioned in scripture. The mystery of God. This mystery is referring to Godís plan (which was from the beginning) to include the gentiles in the family of God. Gentiles (until the time of Peterís revelation from God on the roof top) were thought to be excluded from receiving Godís grace unto salvation.

    This mystery is also mentioned in the book of Rev. Here it is mentioned as finishing. Perhaps the final door for salvation is at that time closed to any more gentiles. Perhaps at this time the final lines are drawn between all those who will serve God and those who wonít.

    The idea here is perhaps both mysteries refer to gentileís acceptance or rejection of God. The mystery of God referring to Godís offering of salvation to gentiles directly. And Mystery Babylon referring to manís rejection of or turning away from God in the face of His offer. Hence mankind showing himself to be the GH. IDK just thinking out loud.

    Hmmmm Ö sounded better in my head than when written out

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe the Harlot is Rome because it is a "great city." At that time it was Rome. Jerusalem also was a "great city." But Jerusalem did not rule at that time.
    Being a great city doesnít mean anything really. There are & were lots of those.

    And the scripture does not say ďAĒ great city Ö it says ďTHE [or that] great city ďwhichĒ Ö. There is a description associated with the city that helps identify which city is being talked about here. The descriptive element refers to that particular great city which exercises authority over the nations of the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I also believe it was Rome because Daniel identified 4 beasts that would rule the world before the coming of God's Kingdom. Most agree that the 4th beast was Rome. The book of Revelation is all about the Beast, and about the "little horn" that Daniel said would emerge out of this 4th Beast. So, I believe the Antichristian Empire is a modern-day offspring of the ancient Roman Empire. And the Harlot is Rome in modern times, when the Antichrist emerges. He will destroy the city, and retain his empire in Europe.
    LOL Iím not most (obviously, telling by my very unorthodox views).

    I interpret that passage to be referring to those kingdoms or world influencing nations (so called super powers) existing at the time of Christís return and His beginning to reign.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The fact the Harlot is called "Babylon" suggests this city belongs to the 4th of the 4 beasts, which began with Babylon.
    Or perhaps referring to the beginning of Babylon which was Babel. Where mankind in complete unity built a tower to reject Godís authority over man. Man, at that time lifted himself up as supreme. Though God stopped the building by confusing their languages, He did not change their desire or further individual or national attempts to exalt themselves. It was here at Babel that man as one unified people openly committed harlotry by forsaking God and exalting himself instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I also believe the Harlot is Rome because she puts to death apostles and prophets. Rome did that. Rev 17.6; 18.20.
    That can be said about other places as well, Jerusalem for example.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  5. #65
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Ok parts make sense, but the city being destroyed to me is a reason it can't be Jerusalem.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The other thing is that all of mankind is not in relationship with God...so that to me doesn't fit. To me it represents a people in relationship with God, the church. This is the other reason I think it is the church:
    Mankind not being in a relationship with God is what makes her the GH.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    World Council of Churches the WCC started in 1948
    Thanks
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  6. #66
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    Perhaps.

    You know there is another mystery mentioned in scripture. The mystery of God. This mystery is referring to Godís plan (which was from the beginning) to include the gentiles in the family of God. Gentiles (until the time of Peterís revelation from God on the roof top) were thought to be excluded from receiving Godís grace unto salvation.

    [...]
    I have to object to the above, just look at the O.T.. Abraham a gentile when called (uncircumcised) is promised a lot of things, not only Israel. Abel who was the first of the generations of heaven (Gen 2:4) was a gentile, Noah was a gentile, was blessed by God. According to Hebrews they were righteous Heb. 11:4 ę By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh Ľ. In Heb. 11:8 ę By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went Ľ. Heb. 11:7 ę By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet (rain), moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Ľ. This is all pre-Israelite, so the above statement isn't correct.

    Aristarkos

  7. #67
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I have to object to the above, just look at the O.T.. Abraham a gentile when called (uncircumcised) is promised a lot of things, not only Israel. Abel who was the first of the generations of heaven (Gen 2:4) was a gentile, Noah was a gentile, was blessed by God. According to Hebrews they were righteous Heb. 11:4 ę By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh Ľ. In Heb. 11:8 ę By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went Ľ. Heb. 11:7 ę By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet (rain), moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Ľ. This is all pre-Israelite, so the above statement isn't correct.

    Aristarkos
    The early church didnít consider gentiles as targets for salvation until after Peterís vision in the rooftop. Even afterwards there was resistance to the idea. Peter was rebuked by Paul because he withdrew from the gentile believers in Antioch (?) when disciples from Jerusalem came a visiting.

    Gentile were always supposed to be included but this was not a reality on the ground. At least until later.

    Hereís a question for you (perhaps a topic for another thread).

    What makes a gentile a gentile?
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  8. #68
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    This statement doesn't make any sense to me. What are you trying to say? How can what is described be anything other than Caliphate?
    In the Bible? I donít see any Caliphate in the Bible

  9. #69
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    How many leaders of these countries fit the profile of Judas Iscariot another son of perdition?
    This makes no sense. Judas Iscariot was a one-off; even Jesus said so.

    In the spirit / heart condition of Judas Escariot, thatís a different matter. Lots of characters fit that profile.

  10. #70
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Everything has to fit in order for the Great Harlot to be in power it has to have a leader that fits the profile of Judas Iscariot..None of the countries other than Rome have no such leader..
    This is conjecture. Please provide a Scriptural exegesis in context on this

  11. #71
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    We need to be careful with idioms in scripture. An idiom is cultural but not necessarily solely applicable to that culture

  12. #72
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    The early church didn’t consider gentiles as targets for salvation until after Peter’s vision in the rooftop. Even afterwards there was resistance to the idea. Peter was rebuked by Paul because he withdrew from the gentile believers in Antioch (?) when disciples from Jerusalem came a visiting.

    Gentile were always supposed to be included but this was not a reality on the ground. At least until later.

    Here’s a question for you (perhaps a topic for another thread).

    What makes a gentile a gentile?
    According to Scripture the only thing is not being circumcised. God said to Abraham: ę And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him Ľ Gen. 17:23.

    Still your remark that it is a mystery that the gentiles were thought to be excluded from receiving God’s grace unto salvation isn't correct, it was not a mystery at all. Abraham is the best example.

    Aristarkos

  13. #73
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    In the Bible? I donít see any Caliphate in the Bible
    really? So one man does it all huh?

  14. #74
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    This is conjecture. Please provide a Scriptural exegesis in context on this
    No conjecture only Gods word..

    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    All one needs do is search the scriptures to find the profile Jesus gave us of Judas to expose the man of sin in..

    II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    If you've read your bibles you'll know exactly what Jesus said about Judas..

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    This is conjecture. Please provide a Scriptural exegesis in context on this
    No conjecture only Gods word..

    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    All one needs do is search the scriptures to find the profile Jesus gave us of Judas to expose the man of sin in..

    II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    If you've read your bibles you'll know exactly what Jesus said about Judas..
    A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

    ~ Smith Wigglesworth


  15. #75
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Again, "The phrase doesn't demand the antichrist be a supposed believer."
    Quite right.. the antichrist can't be a believer fore he is the devils counterfeit Christ another Christ in place of Christ the son of perdition..the Antichrist..

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Again, "The phrase doesn't demand the antichrist be a supposed believer."
    Quite right.. the antichrist can't be a believer fore he is the devils counterfeit Christ another Christ in place of Christ the son of perdition..the Antichrist..
    A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

    ~ Smith Wigglesworth


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