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Thread: Who or what is or will be the Great H

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    Who or what is or will be the Great H

    I’ve started this thread to discuss the identity of the great harlot. Or Babylon the great as described in the book of Revelation.

    Particularly for those who believe the RCC or Rome is the harlot spoken of in Rev 17 & 18. Here is your chance to explain “scripturally why you hold that position. Warning we are stressing scripturally.

    Anyone else who wishes to submit their position is more than welcome to do so.

    I am urging everyone to stay on topic. Don’t derail the thread. And let’s discuss this with open minds to seriously consider the plausibility of each other’s views.

    As a mod I will be watching closely for derailments and attitudes needing adjustments. I want to remind everyone to be courteous and respectful to each other since no one has all the answers. But mine do happen to be closer to the truth than anyone else.

    With that said …. Into the fray!

    I’ve watched many of these threads discussing the ID of the Great Harlot and the many different opinions of which country, city or religion (Rome , Jerusalem, RCC, Islam, etc.) is being depicted by that Great Harlot.

    By the way opinion means: a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something: what someone thinks about a particular thing. As opposed to truth meaning: the real facts about something: the things that are true: the quality or state of being true: a statement or idea that is true. “Opinion” does not equal “truth”.

    I’m no different and I have my “opinion” (defined as mentioned above) just like everyone else. I have been considering joining in these discussions but have decided for the most it would be better to simply watch and see what others have to say before I put my own plug nickel into the pot and show my hand if motivated to do so.

    The main problem I see in most of the opinions presented is although all of them may fit some verses or criteria describing the harlot in Revelation 17 and 18 none of them in my opinion fit all of them. The truth is whoever or whatever the harlot is supposed to represent must meet or fulfill all of them . And so far, no theory has accounted for “ALL” the descriptions she must scripturally meet.

    So with that, let me throw out an additional possibility for y’all to consider. I will muddy the waters and a bit more if you will allow me to do so. I’m just putting this out for you to consider … nothing more.

    When I began looking into this topic years ago. I started by doing a little research regarding the definition of harlotry. For the most part we (human) define it as forms of sexual activities outside of God’s boundaries of such. But I wanted to see how God defined it and in what contexts or situations He applied the term to.

    After looking into it I’ve come to the conclusion the Great Harlot is mankind.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Just kidding about my opinions being closer to truth than others.

    Been having trouble with the site as everyone probably have noticed.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    Just kidding about my opinions being closer to truth than others.

    Been having trouble with the site as everyone probably have noticed.
    I was going to say that if you're only "close to the truth," then you're not close enough, and should not be trusted. But I also was kidding! Take care...

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    .

    After looking into it I’ve come to the conclusion the Great Harlot is mankind.
    Could you elaborate a little bit more with that? How would that fit a woman and city?

    My problem is that the city will be destroyed...plus this scripture:
    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    “In the churches” this stands out to me that Jesus said... so this to me means the book of Revelation is talking about the NT church...it starts that way and ends that way. The question then becomes what does a “woman” represent?

    I can't say I have an opinion...since I am just now looking into it all...but I have read all the different things out on the net about it...and so far the fact that I think maybe the woman represents a NT church makes me lean more toward the RCC. However in my searching too there is another raised up and that is the WCC which I had no idea of...so if you are a member of a church who knows you could belong to it...they have quite a few different churches in it.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Could you elaborate a little bit more with that? How would that fit a woman and city?
    We see in the scriptures how man’s relationship with God is depicted by relationship where man is shown as the feminine side of things. For example, Israel is spoken of as being married to God, betrothed to God and referred to as “she”. The church is often called the bride of Christ. The relationship with God being compared to that of a man and woman as a symbol used to show intimacy with God in a way that we would understand it and could relate.

    So, the Great Harlot is referred to as a she because of the relationship with God. She is a Harlot because of her betrayal toward God to whom she rightfully belongs.

    Since mankind (all of) is the great harlot there needs to be a focal point toward which God will judge by inciting the beast and his 10 pet kings against her. The focal point is a city which has some aspect which represent the whole of mankind in an authority manner (scripture says that great city rules over the kings of the world).

    The great city is the focal point of the harlot and will be destroyed during the reign or during the rising to power of the beast. The remaining harlot (mankind) will be judged at the GWT judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    My problem is that the city will be destroyed...plus this scripture:

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    “In the churches” this stands out to me that Jesus said... so this to me means the book of Revelation is talking about the NT church...it starts that way and ends that way. The question then becomes what does a “woman” represent?
    I would say the book of Rev was written “TO” the church but not necessarily “ABOUT” the church specifically. It’s about what God planned on doing judgment wise regarding mankind. And about events He will set in motion prior to the final judgment. Both believers and unbelievers are included in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I can't say I have an opinion...since I am just now looking into it all...but I have read all the different things out on the net about it...and so far the fact that I think maybe the woman represents a NT church makes me lean more toward the RCC. However in my searching too there is another raised up and that is the WCC which I had no idea of...so if you are a member of a church who knows you could belong to it...they have quite a few different churches in it.
    I’m not familiar what WCC refers to?
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Here are a few ways (or contexts in which) God uses the term harlotry. The activities they were participating in when He labeled them with harlotry determines what God considers to be harlotry.

    To depict sexual immorality : this one is pretty obvious, so I don’t believe I need to give any scriptural references. You can look them up yourself if you wish to do so.

    To depict idolatry: regardless if it’s a Gentile or a Jew committing idolatry. This is the main charge of harlotry against Israel. It is by far the most abundant reference God uses the charge of harlotry for.

    o Ex. 34:13-17 “But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim (14) –for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God—(15) otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they (not Jews) would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you (Jews) to eat of his (not Jews) sacrifice, (16) and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters (not Jews) might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons (Jews) also to play the harlot with their gods. (17) “You shall make for yourself no molten gods.”

    a. In verse 15 it says, “they would play the harlot with their gods”. The word “they” is referring to the inhabitants of the land and the word “you” is referring to the Jews. In other words when they (the inhabitants of the land: not Jews) are worshipping their own gods they (according to God) are committing harlotry.

    b. The same context continues in verse 16 regarding the daughters who are inhabitants of the land and God say that they are committing harlotry.

    c. God is labelling those belonging to the nations He was going to drive out harlots. What this passage is revealing is anyone who worships any god other than the Most High is committing harlotry. It is not restricted to the Jews who begin worshipping foreign gods.

    o Deut. 31:16 “The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.”

    To depict the seeking of demonic guidance: Lev 20:6 “As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.”

    To depict going after the “…the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, …” (1 John 2:16) Num. 15:39-40 “It shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, so as to do them and not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you played the harlot, … (40) so that you may remember to do all My commandments and be holy to your God.”

    To depict ungodly alliances with and trusting in foreign nations:

    o Isa 23:15-17 “Now in that day Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years like the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the harlot: Take your harp, walk about the city, O forgotten harlot; Pluck the strings skillfully, sing many songs, that you may be remembered. It will come about at the end of seventy years that the LORD will visit Tyre. Then she will go back to her harlot’s wages and will play the harlot with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth. (18) Her gain and her harlot’s wages will be set apart to the LORD; it will not be stored up or hoarded, but her gain will become sufficient food and choice attire for those who dwell in the presence of the LORD.” Interesting this is talking of Tyre committing harlotry and not Israel.

    O Ezek. 16:26 “You also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, and multiplied your harlotry to make Me angry.

    O Ezek. 16:28 “Moreover, you played the harlot with the Assyrians because you were not satisfied; you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied.

    The rejection of justice and righteousness:

    o Isa. 1:21 “How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.”

    a. The importance of the context here, it wasn’t idolatry that brought God’s displeasure revealed in this chapter. They were offering sacrifices and observing Sabbaths and holidays etc. It was the leadership ripe with corruption and injustice. They were not exercising justice for the orphan or widows; they were taking bribes, committing murders, etc. It is in the context of this unjust corruption of the leadership God refers to Jerusalem as a harlot.

    What these passages show is God’s definition of harlotry is broader than ours. And it is not limited or confined to Israel. This is key in determining who or what is the God is labeling the Great Harlot.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    We see in the scriptures how man’s relationship with God is depicted by relationship where man is shown as the feminine side of things. For example, Israel is spoken of as being married to God, betrothed to God and referred to as “she”. The church is often called the bride of Christ. The relationship with God being compared to that of a man and woman as a symbol used to show intimacy with God in a way that we would understand it and could relate.

    So, the Great Harlot is referred to as a she because of the relationship with God. She is a Harlot because of her betrayal toward God to whom she rightfully belongs.

    Since mankind (all of) is the great harlot there needs to be a focal point toward which God will judge by inciting the beast and his 10 pet kings against her. The focal point is a city which has some aspect which represent the whole of mankind in an authority manner (scripture says that great city rules over the kings of the world).

    The great city is the focal point of the harlot and will be destroyed during the reign or during the rising to power of the beast. The remaining harlot (mankind) will be judged at the GWT judgment.
    Ok parts make sense, but the city being destroyed to me is a reason it can't be Jerusalem. The other thing is that all of mankind is not in relationship with God...so that to me doesn't fit. To me it represents a people in relationship with God, the church. This is the other reason I think it is the church:
    Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


    I would say the book of Rev was written “TO” the church but not necessarily “ABOUT” the church specifically. It’s about what God planned on doing judgment wise regarding mankind. And about events He will set in motion prior to the final judgment. Both believers and unbelievers are included in this.
    Well I interpret that different, to me “these things in the churches” means it is things going on within the church. One thing good about it all is that the people within the church do overcome because the Lamb overcomes:
    Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    I’m not familiar what WCC refers to?
    World Council of Churches the WCC started in 1948

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Ok parts make sense, but the city being destroyed to me is a reason it can't be Jerusalem.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The other thing is that all of mankind is not in relationship with God...so that to me doesn't fit. To me it represents a people in relationship with God, the church. This is the other reason I think it is the church:
    Mankind not being in a relationship with God is what makes her the GH.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    World Council of Churches the WCC started in 1948
    Thanks
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post

    Mankind not being in a relationship with God is what makes her the GH.
    Ok lets say it is mankind. Then what do you come up with as far as a “city”, “blood of the saints”, and making “war with the Lamb” ?

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Then what do you come up with as far as a “city”,
    For the moment instead of referring to her as a “city”, let’s just refer to her as an “entity”. Just for the moment. We’ll get back to her being a city in a little bit.

    If the GH is actually all mankind, then the entity must represent in some fashion all mankind. Let me walk through some important references in Rev 17.
    Rev 17:1 “… the great harlot who sits on many waters,”
    Rev 17:15 “And he said to me, ‘The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.’”
    These verses show how global the GH is. They also show the GH is not restricted to one city or even a single nation. This is good news for those who believe the GH is some false religion. However, there are other aspects removing her from being such.

    Both these verses show that the GH is founded on or supported by the people and nations of the world. Everyone has an interest in this entity. It is the people and nations of the world who have built this entity to represent them (the GH).

    Rev 17:9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
    This verse reveals more of the same idea. Most use this verse to support that idea that the actual “city” (GH) is built on seven hills. However, the use of the word “seven” in this book indicates it should be more than literal. When used so frequently, reused over and over again it indicates there is something else to it.

    There is a spiritual use of the word seven in scripture. Scripture represents seven as the number of completeness and achievement. Here in this reference the completeness is regarding the complete or total world.

    Just as the seven churches represent all the churches. The seven angels (overseers) represent all the angels (overseers), etc. There are many more examples. Here the seven hills represent all the hills of the world. Linking it back to verse 1 & 15. Interesting coincident … today we count seven continents that make up the whole world. All of which are inhabited (including Antartica).

    Here’s some links to articles regarding the number seven.
    Biblestudy.org
    gotquestions.org
    Biblestudytools.com

    There are two phases of the GH. The actual GH which as I believe is all mankind and a singular focal point representing the GH or all mankind. This single focal point is the city or entity.

    So, we need to find an entity that:
    Is formed upon all the nations and people of the world.
    Is a focal point representing whole world and mankind.
    Has authority over the nations of the world (i.e. rules over the kings of the earth).
    Has great influence in trade around the world (merchants mourn her destruction).
    Is complicit in the destruction of anything and anyone revealing God.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    “blood of the saints”,
    Let's look at these verses.
    Rev 17:6 “And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.”
    Rev 17:2 “with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality."
    The state of being drunk especially here reveals a state of celebration or victory. As such it seems the people of the world will celebrate the death of saints and Christians. When you are so rebellious and resistant to God it’s a great thing to rid yourself of anything or anyone who will remind you of God and His judgment against the wicked (i.e. GH or mankind).

    This entity which represents the GH, is accountable for the death of saints and Christians or allows it to happen. Remember we are still talking about mankind being the GH. Mankind hates Christ and will do anything to rid him self of anything that will remind them of the true God.

    Saints, Christians and Jews are the conscience of the world. We remind them of Christ, righteousness and Godliness. The world (GH) is and will continue to snuff out that conscience to continue in their harlotries unhindered. They hate the light because their deeds are evil. And when they destroy us they rejoice.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    and making “war with the Lamb”?
    The waging of war against the lamb is referring to the ten sort-of kings and the beast, not the GH.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post

    These verses show how global the GH is. They also show the GH is not restricted to one city or even a single nation. This is good news for those who believe the GH is some false religion. However, there are other aspects removing her from being such.
    Aviyah had said this which we need to take into account:
    John's immediate audience would have had no application of Revelation, nor would there be means to discern it for centuries.

    This is why I am leaning more toward false religion. I mean the call to come out of her was given. I don't think that was referring to just a city and doesn't fit mankind.


    Both these verses show that the GH is founded on or supported by the people and nations of the world. Everyone has an interest in this entity. It is the people and nations of the world who have built this entity to represent them (the GH).
    You make this sound like the UN which is headquartered in NY.
    As far as peoples, nations and tongues... you can take just the mid eastern countries and fit that bill as they all have different languages.

    There are two phases of the GH. The actual GH which as I believe is all mankind and a singular focal point representing the GH or all mankind. This single focal point is the city or entity.

    So, we need to find an entity that:
    Is formed upon all the nations and people of the world.
    Is a focal point representing whole world and mankind.
    Has authority over the nations of the world (i.e. rules over the kings of the earth).
    Has great influence in trade around the world (merchants mourn her destruction).
    Is complicit in the destruction of anything and anyone revealing God.
    Interesting on the number 7 but I don't know that fits.

    You are reading more into scriptures than what is being said. The word “world” is only used once in ch 17 referring to the book of life. And only once is the word “all” used. So basically kings could represent just 2 or more...same with the word nations. I don't read world into those things that you do.

    Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    Reigneth means to rule...doesn't Sheria Law rule over certain kings of earth? Isn't this how a religion would reign? I mean these laws are in the US even...certain states have banned them.

    I wouldn't rule out religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post

    These verses show how global the GH is. They also show the GH is not restricted to one city or even a single nation. This is good news for those who believe the GH is some false religion. However, there are other aspects removing her from being such.
    Aviyah had said this which we need to take into account:
    John's immediate audience would have had no application of Revelation, nor would there be means to discern it for centuries.

    This is why I am leaning more toward false religion. I mean the call to come out of her was given. I don't think that was referring to just a city and doesn't fit mankind.


    Both these verses show that the GH is founded on or supported by the people and nations of the world. Everyone has an interest in this entity. It is the people and nations of the world who have built this entity to represent them (the GH).
    You make this sound like the UN which is headquartered in NY.
    As far as peoples, nations and tongues... you can take just the mid eastern countries and fit that bill as they all have different languages.

    There are two phases of the GH. The actual GH which as I believe is all mankind and a singular focal point representing the GH or all mankind. This single focal point is the city or entity.

    So, we need to find an entity that:
    Is formed upon all the nations and people of the world.
    Is a focal point representing whole world and mankind.
    Has authority over the nations of the world (i.e. rules over the kings of the earth).
    Has great influence in trade around the world (merchants mourn her destruction).
    Is complicit in the destruction of anything and anyone revealing God.
    Interesting on the number 7 but I don't know that fits.

    You are reading more into scriptures than what is being said. The word “world” is only used once in ch 17 referring to the book of life. And only once is the word “all” used. So basically kings could represent just 2 or more...same with the word nations. I don't read world into those things that you do.

    Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    Reigneth means to rule...doesn't Sheria Law rule over certain kings of earth? Isn't this how a religion would reign? I mean these laws are in the US even...certain states have banned them.

    I wouldn't rule out religion.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Aviyah had said this which we need to take into account:
    John's immediate audience would have had no application of Revelation, nor would there be means to discern it for centuries.
    John’s audience didn’t need to know the details just the overall jist of what was going to happen. They should have been able to get a very good general idea of what was supposed to happen even if they didn’t know exactly how it would come about or when.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    … I mean the call to come out of her was given. I don't think that was referring to just a city and doesn't fit mankind.
    Actually, it does fit mankind and this isn’t the first time God has given the same call to His people.

    2 Cor. 6:14-18 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
    And I will welcome you. And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

    There has been no change to this call from the beginning. God has always expected His people to be separated from the ways of the world. To stop being like and living according to the values and morals of those who reject Him.

    This call from God in Rev is no different. It’s a call for His people to stop compromising. To stop trying to fit in with the world. To stop tying to get the worlds approval. To stop adjusting righteousness to what the current social norms are.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    You make this sound like the UN which is headquartered in NY.
    As far as peoples, nations and tongues... you can take just the mid eastern countries and fit that bill as they all have different languages.
    But not as wide spread as what is being described in Rev regarding the GH.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    You are reading more into scriptures than what is being said. The word “world” is only used once in ch 17 referring to the book of life. And only once is the word “all” used. So basically kings could represent just 2 or more...same with the word nations. I don't read world into those things that you do.
    No, I’m not reading into the scriptures. The application and use of the number seven and the validity of the meaning of water is clearly established in scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    Reigneth means to rule...doesn't Sheria Law rule over certain kings of earth? Isn't this how a religion would reign? I mean these laws are in the US even...certain states have banned them.
    It’s not “certain kings” … It’s “the kings” of the earth. The phrase “The kings” is far more inclusive than the limited number who subscribe to Sharia law.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I wouldn't rule out religion.
    No religion past or present can be accountable for and I quote … “all those slain on the earth.” Clearly those religions can account for some but no where near all of them. Not all wars are religious ones. There are many who have been slain due to simple crime with no indication of religion being involved.

    The only common denominator in all those who have been slain on earth is mankind (within context). We’re not taking about those slain be wild beasts, eat by sharks, etc.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  13. #13
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    John’s audience didn’t need to know the details just the overall jist of what was going to happen. They should have been able to get a very good general idea of what was supposed to happen even if they didn’t know exactly how it would come about or when.


    Actually, it does fit mankind and this isn’t the first time God has given the same call to His people.

    2 Cor. 6:14-18 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
    And I will welcome you. And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

    There has been no change to this call from the beginning. God has always expected His people to be separated from the ways of the world. To stop being like and living according to the values and morals of those who reject Him.

    This call from God in Rev is no different. It’s a call for His people to stop compromising. To stop trying to fit in with the world. To stop tying to get the worlds approval. To stop adjusting righteousness to what the current social norms are.


    But not as wide spread as what is being described in Rev regarding the GH.


    No, I’m not reading into the scriptures. The application and use of the number seven and the validity of the meaning of water is clearly established in scripture.


    It’s not “certain kings” … It’s “the kings” of the earth. The phrase “The kings” is far more inclusive than the limited number who subscribe to Sharia law.



    No religion past or present can be accountable for and I quote … “all those slain on the earth.” Clearly those religions can account for some but no where near all of them. Not all wars are religious ones. There are many who have been slain due to simple crime with no indication of religion being involved.

    The only common denominator in all those who have been slain on earth is mankind (within context). We’re not taking about those slain be wild beasts, eat by sharks, etc.
    Right. "Come out of her" would refer, in John's day, and in Paul's day, to the Roman world. Clearly, Rome was pagan and enticed believers to follow the corrupt ways of the world. Rome was, I think, set forth as an example of sin in John's day because Rome would continue, down through the ages, to be a source of worldly enticement for believers. The Catholic Church has had to resist the pull of Rome into humanism. The Protestants have had to resist the pull of Rome into Europe's preChristian past.

    In the endtimes Rome will ride on the back of a renewed pagan Europe, which I believe will be an Antichristian Empire. We're always having to reject the collapse of Christian faith and spirituality in our culture. And our culture has largely come from a mix of Christianity and Roman paganism.

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    Cool Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Right. "Come out of her" would refer, in John's day, and in Paul's day, to the Roman world. Clearly, Rome was pagan and enticed believers to follow the corrupt ways of the world. Rome was, I think, set forth as an example of sin in John's day because Rome would continue, down through the ages, to be a source of worldly enticement for believers. The Catholic Church has had to resist the pull of Rome into humanism. The Protestants have had to resist the pull of Rome into Europe's preChristian past.

    In the endtimes Rome will ride on the back of a renewed pagan Europe, which I believe will be an Antichristian Empire. We're always having to reject the collapse of Christian faith and spirituality in our culture. And our culture has largely come from a mix of Christianity and Roman paganism.
    I do not believe the coming united Europe will be anti-Christian. I believe they will embrace the Roman Catholic Church as a common heritage. I believe the little horn rising up in the ten crowns and subduing three of them is the RCC. That tells us some of the kings will not go for the Catholics being their binding.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I do not believe the coming united Europe will be anti-Christian. I believe they will embrace the Roman Catholic Church as a common heritage. I believe the little horn rising up in the ten crowns and subduing three of them is the RCC. That tells us some of the kings will not go for the Catholics being their binding.
    Well, I suppose it could be in any order. 1st Europe unites under a corrupt RCC. Or, Europe turns completely pagan, and the RCC decides to join pagan Europe? Both are possible, in my thinking.

    Although the RCC has had corruptions throughout its past, there have also been Christians in the RCC. It may be that an RCC leader will go, at some point, completely whacko, and follow the Antichrist, who will rise in Europe. But much of this is speculative.

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