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Thread: Who or what is or will be the Great H

  1. #31

    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    As I see it, they both are “types” of the Church.

    The "OLD Jerusalem" was the physical one that was destroyed in 70 AD. It happened in Rev. 17-18. Immediately it was replaced by the New Jerusalem described in Rev. 21-22.
    Consistent Literalism continually misinterpret it has "Heaven" or the Eternal state, something exclusively future.

    However the Reformed pointed out that it cannot be Heaven because there was too much in it that was not future. It this city also described as "the Bride of Christ." (Rev. 21: 10) How can a City be also a Bride? Because it was not a literal city but was the Bride of Christ, the Church. That is present, not only future.

    So both represent the Church, a spiritual body, the New Covenant People of God.

    The physical was first (a type), then the spiritual came, in Christ.

    Spiritual truth: " However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. " 1 Corinthians 15: 46 - Paul
    First the natural....well that even is the Roman Empire...so that is the first place Christianity takes hold. So to me that fits even more.

    I can't believe how much I am finding on the net about it all...they even have Daniels prophecies tied to the papacy. So there is much out there about it if anyone takes the time to look and read for sure. So I would have to go with Rome and RCC, they even call themselves the Mother of churches. Plus what I already stated with scriptures “in the churches” said by Jesus Re 22:16

    To me we need to be looking within the NT churches for Revelation. The only thing missing for the RCC is the power they used to have making decrees and having an army to do their bidding. That could happen very quickly at any given time.

  2. #32
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    It should have read..

    Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    By way of concordats..



    It should have read..

    Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    By way of concordats..

    Ok. What does any of this have to do with the Catholic Church?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  3. #33
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    You are right in what I highlighted....so lets look at NT history of Rome.
    The point is that Rome still exists today. And this is in the “Cannon Law of Rome”:
    The title “Lord God the Pope” - these words appeared in the Canon Law of Rome. “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.” (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)
    The Roman Empire certainly does not exist. And who cares what the “canon Law of Rome” says. Islam says the same thing about Muhammad, the momons say the same thing about Joself Smith, the Deli Lama, etc. etc.

    Nothingburger.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    There are different history documents stating even within the RCC with these claims.
    http://www.geoffhorton.com/PapalClaims.html
    https://radio7.interamerica.org/uploaded_assets/83592

    You have to look at church history to find these things. The thing is most people that even belong to the church don't know these things....they simply go to church. But Rome and Italy really are RCC...that is the religion of Rome. We know the prophecies for Jerusalem and it doesn't fit for today or in the future.
    The prophecies for Jerusalem in this context fit for the generations John wrote it to.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post

    Oh and if you want a scripture what about this...as this harlot has to affect the earth.
    Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
    Deuteronomy has instructions for Israelites to inscribe the Law on their foreheads. Do you really think that was meant literally?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    What are the abominations of Jerusalem in NT times lets keep in mind when John even wrote the book of Revelation? The RCC claims to be and through Rome declaring the pope to be God.
    I think the Jewish leadership denying, then crucifying Israel’s King (Immanuel) and proclaiming Caesar as their king qualifies as an abomination.

    Jesus even said it:

    “Look, your house is left to you desolate.”

    Straight out of Daniel.

    By the way, the RCC doesn’t consider pope Francis God.

  4. #34
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I can’t reconcile the concept of a Christian nation in terms of nationalism in the Bible. Christians are uniquely called a holy nation, not by borders, but through Jesus Christ. Sorry, but I just don’t see a replacement for Israel in that context in scripture.
    That's okay. I find that a lot. I don't hear a lot of Christians talking about this the way I do. I'm not sure why? It seems pretty straight forward to me. Maybe similar views are buried in historical documents?

    My argument remains, though. If God called one nation, Israel, then He would call other nations. Why would He change His tactics? And quite frankly, the language is there. Dating from the Abrahamic Covenant, God has reached out not just to individuals, but also to entire nations. And history has seen that.

    I do not come from the "separatist" mold. I'm not anti-everything--not anti-government, anti-organization, anti-bureaucracy. I'm not purely independent in politics. I like to flow with the predominant authority that God has put in place, as long as there is genuine value in it, and it doesn't compromise my faith.

    To take an anti-State attitude smells of the kind of separatism that Luther turned his nose up on. And I do too. Radicals just like to crash and burn. But they can commit their acts of revolution somewhere else, as far as I'm concerned.

    That's no reflection on you. It's just how I feel on the subject, generally. If we don't believe in social improvement, and only believe in individual salvation, then we will never stand for things like social justice. And I think that's the opposite of what the Prophets stood for.

  5. #35

    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Well this fits Rome. They say Peter and Paul were killed in Italy. This particular one states Rome:
    Eusebius of Caesarea in his Church History (320 AD) testifies that Paul was beheaded in Rome and Peter crucified. He wrote that the tombs of these two apostles, with their inscriptions, were extant in his time; and quotes as his authority a holy man of the name of Caius.

    Therefore this could apply to Rome:
    Matthew 23:34-35 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    And what about this they were specifically sent to Rome why?:
    Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

    I already pointed out why it can't be Jerusalem this does not fit Jerusalem!!
    Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    Plus this doesn't apply to Jerusalem...it applies to Rome
    Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    Keck you seem to stand alone with it being Jerusalem... well I shouldn't say that as the Preterists take your stand... and as I mentioned in my searching and reading RCC sites on their opinion.. they bring up “pagan Rome” or Jerusalem...but most their sites say pagan Rome.

  6. #36
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    The problem is the Bible has only referred to God’s own covenant people as adulterers/harlots.

    Rome wasn’t in covenant with God.
    Aren't NT believers in covenant with God? If so, aren't we capable of biblical harlotry?

    I tend to think of these issues as having a physical fulfillment but also, look to see if there's a spiritual fulfillment too. I agree that Jersualem is the GH. But where was Jerusalem when Abel was slain? If she didn't exist physically then, but was still active, isn't it possible she doesn't exist physically today and still be active? The scriptures state that it is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem. Jesus called Abel a prophet and he held present day Jerusalem responsible for his death. Why is that? IMO, it is because the same spirit that was on them, was also on Cain. And if that is the case, then we can say the same about those that are killing the prophets today. It always has been and always will be, IMO, impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem.

    I guess, in my way of thinking, the RCC was at one time, spiritual Jerusalem. Is she now? I don't think so. Muslims would qualify now as they behead believers. But even in local churches don't we see where pastors and elders and other leaders are brought low and controlled even in the US? I've seen it. IMO, that happens because of the same thing that was in Cain. It is the same attitude/spirit that was in the priest. I don't see anything in the scriptures to make me think that when God judged Israel, that he put an end to "the one who kills the prophets".

    IOW, the reason that RCC doesn't line up completely with all scripture says about the GH is because she isn't THE GH. But the spirit was upon her at one time. As Jesus said... it is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem. When a prophet dies, the GH is at work, IMO.

    This may fit more with what Old Man has stated. But like you, I do see physical Jerusalem as the ultimate fit. But I also see where God went into covenant with all mankind, though it can rightly be argued it was not a marriage covenant. Though I see a difference between a harlot and an adulterer. I probably should read up more on the scriptural use of those terms.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  7. #37
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Well this fits Rome. They say Peter and Paul were killed in Italy. This particular one states Rome:
    Eusebius of Caesarea in his Church History (320 AD) testifies that Paul was beheaded in Rome and Peter crucified. He wrote that the tombs of these two apostles, with their inscriptions, were extant in his time; and quotes as his authority a holy man of the name of Caius.

    Therefore this could apply to Rome:
    Matthew 23:34-35 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    How could that apply to Rome when Jesus specifically applies it to Israel (your fathers, scribes, pharisees, prophets)?

    Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    And what about this they were specifically sent to Rome why?:
    Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

  8. #38
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Oooops...after that second quote is suppose to be my response.....

    "to preach the gospel?"

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Mark - as individuals or even an individual congregation - the answer is yes.

  10. #40
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Consider this

    Does not the Jewish leadership denying, then crucifying Israel’s King (Immanuel) and proclaiming Caesar as their king qualify as an abomination?

    Jesus even said it:

    “Look, your house is left to you desolate.”

    Straight out of Daniel.

    The abomination that lead to desolation are both detailed specifically in Scripture.

  11. #41
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Aren't NT believers in covenant with God? If so, aren't we capable of biblical harlotry?

    I tend to think of these issues as having a physical fulfillment but also, look to see if there's a spiritual fulfillment too. I agree that Jersualem is the GH. But where was Jerusalem when Abel was slain? If she didn't exist physically then, but was still active, isn't it possible she doesn't exist physically today and still be active? The scriptures state that it is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem. Jesus called Abel a prophet and he held present day Jerusalem responsible for his death. Why is that? IMO, it is because the same spirit that was on them, was also on Cain. And if that is the case, then we can say the same about those that are killing the prophets today. It always has been and always will be, IMO, impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem.

    I guess, in my way of thinking, the RCC was at one time, spiritual Jerusalem. Is she now? I don't think so. Muslims would qualify now as they behead believers. But even in local churches don't we see where pastors and elders and other leaders are brought low and controlled even in the US? I've seen it. IMO, that happens because of the same thing that was in Cain. It is the same attitude/spirit that was in the priest. I don't see anything in the scriptures to make me think that when God judged Israel, that he put an end to "the one who kills the prophets".

    IOW, the reason that RCC doesn't line up completely with all scripture says about the GH is because she isn't THE GH. But the spirit was upon her at one time. As Jesus said... it is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem. When a prophet dies, the GH is at work, IMO.

    This may fit more with what Old Man has stated. But like you, I do see physical Jerusalem as the ultimate fit. But I also see where God went into covenant with all mankind, though it can rightly be argued it was not a marriage covenant. Though I see a difference between a harlot and an adulterer. I probably should read up more on the scriptural use of those terms.
    Your getting closer Mark..

    Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

    30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

    31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Aren't NT believers in covenant with God? If so, aren't we capable of biblical harlotry?

    I tend to think of these issues as having a physical fulfillment but also, look to see if there's a spiritual fulfillment too. I agree that Jersualem is the GH. But where was Jerusalem when Abel was slain? If she didn't exist physically then, but was still active, isn't it possible she doesn't exist physically today and still be active? The scriptures state that it is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem. Jesus called Abel a prophet and he held present day Jerusalem responsible for his death. Why is that? IMO, it is because the same spirit that was on them, was also on Cain. And if that is the case, then we can say the same about those that are killing the prophets today. It always has been and always will be, IMO, impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem.

    I guess, in my way of thinking, the RCC was at one time, spiritual Jerusalem. Is she now? I don't think so. Muslims would qualify now as they behead believers. But even in local churches don't we see where pastors and elders and other leaders are brought low and controlled even in the US? I've seen it. IMO, that happens because of the same thing that was in Cain. It is the same attitude/spirit that was in the priest. I don't see anything in the scriptures to make me think that when God judged Israel, that he put an end to "the one who kills the prophets".

    IOW, the reason that RCC doesn't line up completely with all scripture says about the GH is because she isn't THE GH. But the spirit was upon her at one time. As Jesus said... it is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem. When a prophet dies, the GH is at work, IMO.

    This may fit more with what Old Man has stated. But like you, I do see physical Jerusalem as the ultimate fit. But I also see where God went into covenant with all mankind, though it can rightly be argued it was not a marriage covenant. Though I see a difference between a harlot and an adulterer. I probably should read up more on the scriptural use of those terms.
    Your getting closer Mark..

    Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

    30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

    31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
    The cross is going to judge everything in your life: your eating, your drinking, your sleeping, your spending, your talking. Everything is cross-examined!

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill




  12. #42

    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    How could that apply to Rome when Jesus specifically applies it to Israel (your fathers, scribes, pharisees, prophets)?
    I realize he was talking to Israel when it was said. He was basically threatening Israel with the statement. To me this scripture is stating that Jesus will apply all the blood on the ones that kills the prophets, scribes and wise men that Jesus sends. In other words anyone that kills who He sends He will apply the blood of all. He sent them to Rome. Peter and Paul were killed in Rome. So it could apply to Rome. This is how I came up with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    How could that apply to Rome when Jesus specifically applies it to Israel (your fathers, scribes, pharisees, prophets)?
    I realize he was talking to Israel when it was said. He was basically threatening Israel with the statement. To me this scripture is stating that Jesus will apply all the blood on the ones that kills the prophets, scribes and wise men that Jesus sends. In other words anyone that kills who He sends He will apply the blood of all. He sent them to Rome. Peter and Paul were killed in Rome. So it could apply to Rome. This is how I came up with it.

  13. #43

    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Well now I have been reading how it is Mecca! Haha There is not as much information about this one but I find it interesting and how it does fit. It too would make the war of the Lamb make more sense, as why would any Christians war with the Lamb they believe in Jesus.

    Here is the link...you have to scroll down a bit... I did not listen to the video.. just scrolled through all the reading material. So if anyone is interested in reading about that. Here is the link,

    If you do read through it let me know your thoughts as this city didn't come up before.

    Well now I have been reading how it is Mecca! Haha There is not as much information about this one but I find it interesting and how it does fit. It too would make the war of the Lamb make more sense, as why would any Christians war with the Lamb they believe in Jesus.

    Here is the link...you have to scroll down a bit... I did not listen to the video.. just scrolled through all the reading material. So if anyone is interested in reading about that. Here is the link,

    If you do read through it let me know your thoughts as this city didn't come up before.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Except that An-Nasir Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub made a much greater and more effective war not only on Christians (the Lamb) but took Jerusalem from them as well.

    No Caliphate since has been so powerful and effective.

    While the numbers may be greater, Mecca is no different than the Mormon temple in SLC in terms of Revelation Scriptures.

  15. #45
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I realize he was talking to Israel when it was said. He was basically threatening Israel with the statement. To me this scripture is stating that Jesus will apply all the blood on the ones that kills the prophets, scribes and wise men that Jesus sends. In other words anyone that kills who He sends He will apply the blood of all. He sent them to Rome. Peter and Paul were killed in Rome. So it could apply to Rome. This is how I came up with it.
    Israel was created for a purpose - to bring Christ. They did what their actual fathers did, which was not just political but religious. I cannot apply this to Rome at the time the Revelation was given to John. Later yes, similar scenario.

    IMO Constantinople/Istanbul fits better than any, except it was not in existence at the time. However Jesus, John, Peter, and Paul all spoke of the future. Jesus' parables of leaven and the mustard seed are about future corruption. Leaven is obvious, always corruption, and the church has always been corrupt, but the mustard seed that ends up greater than all other trees has devils living in the shadows of its branches. This fits the RCC to a T. It fits nothing else.

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