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Thread: Who or what is or will be the Great H

  1. #16
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    I think there are equally strong arguments for Jerusalem as for Rome, but I'll make the case for Rome:

    1) For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living. (ch. 18)

    Certainly true from Constantine through the Holy Roman Empire. The cities and states of Europe had tremendous development for +1000 years as a result of RCC, a noteworthy example being the Knights Templar who were the world's first international finance organization. The wealthiest countries were those subordinate to the Pope until the French Revolution.

    2) Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues." (ch. 18)

    This indicates that the harlot is a mixed entity with believers and nonbelievers alike, as God calls those who belong to Him out of her so that they do not participate. It can be argued that historically this alludes to the Reformation period preceding Napoleon's destruction of HRE.

    3) "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth." (ch. 18)

    The harlot must be an entity which killed believers specifically, but also it is guilty of slaying people on the earth in general. On this point, RCC fits the description better than Jerusalem. No country or organization before or since has persecuted Christians on the degree, scale, or duration of the Roman church - moreover waged more wars, foreign and domestic, throughout it's existence. In fact, nearly every conflict in that time period was in some way related to or overseen by RCC.

    4) And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth. (ch. 17)

    The Vatican city-state also suits this better than Jerusalem, given that Jerusalem was only an international political authority in the time of Solomon. Rome matches much more closely the harlot's relationship with world powers described in chapter 17 - a separate entity, religio-centric government, granted authority by its own subordinate states until they reject it. This was the case throughout the entire dark ages and renaissance.

    Problems with Rome as the Harlot, as opposed to Jerusalem:

    1) Although the devastation of Catholic Rome did fracture the world of the time, the Vatican has never been destroyed nearly to the degree of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
    2) John's immediate audience would have had no application of Revelation, nor would there be means to discern it for centuries.
    3) RCC still exists today, which causes miscellaneous timeline issues. Granted, HRE does not exist nor does RCC's authority over nations. This might be resolvable.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  2. #17
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    The problem is the Bible has only referred to Godís own covenant people as adulterers/harlots.

    Rome wasnít in covenant with God.
    Maybe that is part of the "mystery?" Rome was in fact converted to Christianity, and became, as much as Israel, "God's People." Then it can be said over time that Rome has "played the harlot." Just a thought....

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I think there are equally strong arguments for Jerusalem as for Rome, but I'll make the case for Rome:

    1) For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living. (ch. 18)

    Certainly true from Constantine through the Holy Roman Empire. The cities and states of Europe had tremendous development for +1000 years as a result of RCC, a noteworthy example being the Knights Templar who were the world's first international finance organization. The wealthiest countries were those subordinate to the Pope until the French Revolution.

    2) Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues." (ch. 18)

    This indicates that the harlot is a mixed entity with believers and nonbelievers alike, as God calls those who belong to Him out of her so that they do not participate. It can be argued that historically this alludes to the Reformation period preceding Napoleon's destruction of HRE.

    3) "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth." (ch. 18)

    The harlot must be an entity which killed believers specifically, but also it is guilty of slaying people on the earth in general. On this point, RCC fits the description better than Jerusalem. No country or organization before or since has persecuted Christians on the degree, scale, or duration of the Roman church - moreover waged more wars, foreign and domestic, throughout it's existence. In fact, nearly every conflict in that time period was in some way related to or overseen by RCC.

    4) And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth. (ch. 17)

    The Vatican city-state also suits this better than Jerusalem, given that Jerusalem was only an international political authority in the time of Solomon. Rome matches much more closely the harlot's relationship with world powers described in chapter 17 - a separate entity, religio-centric government, granted authority by its own subordinate states until they reject it. This was the case throughout the entire dark ages and renaissance.

    Problems with Rome as the Harlot, as opposed to Jerusalem:

    1) Although the devastation of Catholic Rome did fracture the world of the time, the Vatican has never been destroyed nearly to the degree of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
    2) John's immediate audience would have had no application of Revelation, nor would there be means to discern it for centuries.
    3) RCC still exists today, which causes miscellaneous timeline issues. Granted, HRE does not exist nor does RCC's authority over nations. This might be resolvable.
    I think you're losing the more immediate context of the Revelation, which was the *ancient Roman Empire.* Otherwise, I agree that Rome has continued to be significant through the ages. And its demise is probably a reference to a future demise than to 476 AD.

    In other words, I think John is identifying ancient Rome as some kind of future reality, during the time of Antichrist. Antichrist will destroy this future Roman confederation, a "7th king," and thus become, himself, the "8th king." At what point during his reign the Antichrist actually destroys Rome I don't know?

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Rome has zero political or military power. The RCC would be sitting on a paper tiger by worldly standards. It doesnít work.

    But Scripture supports that it could be the high priestís collaboration with the Romans:

    ďBut they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!" "Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked. "We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.Ē

    Caesar was presented as deity to the world, and demanded worship. The chief priests knew that, but rejected Godís anointed One and sent Him to His death for the love of a false god. How much worse can it get?

    Iím sticking with Scripture because conjecture is apocryphal.
    She has power over all nations that have made concordats with her..

    http://www.concordatwatch.eu/
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Maybe that is part of the "mystery?" Rome was in fact converted to Christianity, and became, as much as Israel, "God's People." Then it can be said over time that Rome has "played the harlot." Just a thought....
    You are basically saying the Catholic Church was in covenant with God and a legitimate representive of God in earth. You are also saying that at some point, the Catholic sect went apostate. So when did that happen? What doctrine changed? And why didnít God chastise His Catholic Church as He did Israel and all Christians? The Bible is clear on this also:

    ďBut if you are without discipline, of which we all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. For those whom the LORD loves He disciplines, and He scourges every sone whom He receives. It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son itís there whom his father does not discipline?Ē

    And our response? It's the same as it has always been.

    "You have chastised me, and I was chastised. Like an untrained calf; bring me back o I may be restored. For YOU are the LORD my God. For after I turned back, I repented; And after I was instructed, I mote on my thigh; I was ashamed and also humiliated because I bore the reproach of my youth."

    And God's response to our repentance?

    "Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a delightful child? Indeed, as often as I have spoken against him, I certainly still remember him; therefore my heart yearns for him> I will surely have mercy on him, declares the LORD."

    So you see, those in covenant with God beat visible, earthly consequences not only for disobedience, but obedience.

    So when we talk of the harlot, we really need to bring in the entire character of God, the mechanisms of how He interacts with those in covenant, and what the visible signs are of that relationship.

    I canít think of anything more apostate than rejecting God as our King, sentencing Him to death and declaring some earthly ruler as our higher Lord and authority than the Lord Jesus. Which is exactly what the chief priests did, and exactly what Jesus said they would do in many parables.

    That is a true abomination.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I think there are equally strong arguments for Jerusalem as for Rome, but I'll make the case for Rome:

    1) For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living. (ch. 18)

    Certainly true from Constantine through the Holy Roman Empire. The cities and states of Europe had tremendous development for +1000 years as a result of RCC, a noteworthy example being the Knights Templar who were the world's first international finance organization. The wealthiest countries were those subordinate to the Pope until the French Revolution.

    2) Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues." (ch. 18)

    This indicates that the harlot is a mixed entity with believers and nonbelievers alike, as God calls those who belong to Him out of her so that they do not participate. It can be argued that historically this alludes to the Reformation period preceding Napoleon's destruction of HRE.

    3) "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth." (ch. 18)

    The harlot must be an entity which killed believers specifically, but also it is guilty of slaying people on the earth in general. On this point, RCC fits the description better than Jerusalem. No country or organization before or since has persecuted Christians on the degree, scale, or duration of the Roman church - moreover waged more wars, foreign and domestic, throughout it's existence. In fact, nearly every conflict in that time period was in some way related to or overseen by RCC.

    4) And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth. (ch. 17)

    The Vatican city-state also suits this better than Jerusalem, given that Jerusalem was only an international political authority in the time of Solomon. Rome matches much more closely the harlot's relationship with world powers described in chapter 17 - a separate entity, religio-centric government, granted authority by its own subordinate states until they reject it. This was the case throughout the entire dark ages and renaissance.

    Problems with Rome as the Harlot, as opposed to Jerusalem:

    1) Although the devastation of Catholic Rome did fracture the world of the time, the Vatican has never been destroyed nearly to the degree of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
    2) John's immediate audience would have had no application of Revelation, nor would there be means to discern it for centuries.
    3) RCC still exists today, which causes miscellaneous timeline issues. Granted, HRE does not exist nor does RCC's authority over nations. This might be resolvable.
    Your last point is the most excellent point; John wrote Revelation as much for his generation as for ours. The application for his generation was hope, assurance and justice for the incredible and wicked persecutions and utter hottor the Roman Empire levied on both the previous generation of Jews and even more the following generation of Christians John wrote to.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Maybe that is part of the "mystery?" Rome was in fact converted to Christianity, and became, as much as Israel, "God's People." Then it can be said over time that Rome has "played the harlot." Just a thought....
    I canít reconcile the concept of a Christian nation in terms of nationalism in the Bible. Christians are uniquely called a holy nation, not by borders, but through Jesus Christ. Sorry, but I just donít see a replacement for Israel in that context in scripture.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    She has power over all nations that have made concordats with her..

    http://www.concordatwatch.eu/
    Letís stick to Scripture as the OP asked. Please.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Let’s stick to Scripture as the OP asked. Please.
    You made an absolute statement i just replied..

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Letís stick to Scripture as the OP asked. Please.
    You made an absolute statement i just replied..
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



  10. #25
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    You are basically saying the Catholic Church was in covenant with God and a legitimate representive of God in earth. You are also saying that at some point, the Catholic sect went apostate. So when did that happen? What doctrine changed? And why didn’t God chastise His Catholic Church as He did Israel and all Christians? The Bible is clear on this also:

    “But if you are without discipline, of which we all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. For those whom the LORD loves He disciplines, and He scourges every sone whom He receives. It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son it’s there whom his father does not discipline?”

    And our response? It's the same as it has always been.

    "You have chastised me, and I was chastised. Like an untrained calf; bring me back o I may be restored. For YOU are the LORD my God. For after I turned back, I repented; And after I was instructed, I mote on my thigh; I was ashamed and also humiliated because I bore the reproach of my youth."

    And God's response to our repentance?

    "Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a delightful child? Indeed, as often as I have spoken against him, I certainly still remember him; therefore my heart yearns for him> I will surely have mercy on him, declares the LORD."

    So you see, those in covenant with God beat visible, earthly consequences not only for disobedience, but obedience.

    So when we talk of the harlot, we really need to bring in the entire character of God, the mechanisms of how He interacts with those in covenant, and what the visible signs are of that relationship.

    I can’t think of anything more apostate than rejecting God as our King, sentencing Him to death and declaring some earthly ruler as our higher Lord and authority than the Lord Jesus. Which is exactly what the chief priests did, and exactly what Jesus said they would do in many parables.

    That is a true abomination.
    I would agree. We have to look at the big picture, and see how God's nature plays out in his interrelationship with nations. But we also have to recognize that nations rise and fall, and that they consist of diverse elements.

    All this is demonstrated in ancient Israel, in her relationship with God. At times she made covenant with God, and pledged allegiance to God as a nation. At other times, the nation went head first into idol worship, finding pluralism superior to monotheism.

    When Israel obeyed, she was blessed. When she disobeyed she was cursed. But the curse was not always the same, nor was it beyond repair. A small sin was forgiven at the altar of animal sacrifice. The big sins required whole sale destruction of the nation, as the vast majority were caught up in sin. The whole nation suffered destruction. But repair was not beyond reach.

    When Israel fell into large scale sin, a remnant always remained faithful to God. Out of this remnant God could always repair the nation after a major fall. And it is no different today. Israel has now been punished with an age-long punishment. But a remnant of Christians have always remained faithful. The Jews have cast out their own as "apostates." But God is always able to birth new Christians among the Jews.

    And so, the nation will one day be repaired after this major judgment, just as they were after the Babylonian punishment. We should keep these things in mind before giving up on the Hope of Israel, which God promised as an everlasting covenant to Abraham.

    The Catholic Church is no different, consisting of a number of Christian nations at different times. Like Israel, the nations who were part of the Catholic Empire fell into great sin, and the vast majority participated in this sin. And so, great judgment was inflicted by God upon these nations. And yet remnants of true Christians survived among the Catholics in these nations. And so there has always been hope of restoring the Catholic Church. I believe the Protestant Reformation is a good example of Christian restoration by using a remnant of faithful among the Catholics, although they separated and became a new affiliation.

    I just don't see the Catholic Church as very Christian today. I still see it as a fallen church, with relatively few really serving God. I wouldn't stop calling them "Christians" though. That would be judgmental, and that would be denying that God's Grace is strong enough and large enough to restore them.

    As far as the Harlot of Rev 17, I think this is referring to Rome in its fallen state, turning to idolatry, and corrupting the world with false religion. I think the Catholic Church will in a sense descend into the abyss of idolatry, committing adultery against God. Rome hasn't gotten there yet, but will, I believe, when the Antichrist appears. The False Prophet may take control of Catholicism in Rome at that time, and rule over both parts of the old Roman Empire, the East and the West.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Let’s stick to Scripture as the OP asked. Please.
    It should have read..

    Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    By way of concordats..

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Letís stick to Scripture as the OP asked. Please.
    It should have read..

    Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    By way of concordats..
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    .

    I can’t think of anything more apostate than rejecting God as our King, sentencing Him to death and declaring some earthly ruler as our higher Lord and authority than the Lord Jesus. Which is exactly what the chief priests did, and exactly what Jesus said they would do in many parables.

    That is a true abomination.
    You are right in what I highlighted....so lets look at NT history of Rome.
    The point is that Rome still exists today. And this is in the “Cannon Law of Rome”:
    The title “Lord God the Pope” - these words appeared in the Canon Law of Rome. “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.” (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

    There are different history documents stating even within the RCC with these claims.
    http://www.geoffhorton.com/PapalClaims.html
    https://radio7.interamerica.org/uploaded_assets/83592

    You have to look at church history to find these things. The thing is most people that even belong to the church don't know these things....they simply go to church. But Rome and Italy really are RCC...that is the religion of Rome. We know the prophecies for Jerusalem and it doesn't fit for today or in the future.

    Oh and if you want a scripture what about this...as this harlot has to affect the earth.
    Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    What are the abominations of Jerusalem in NT times lets keep in mind when John even wrote the book of Revelation? The RCC claims to be and through Rome declaring the pope to be God.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Let’s stick to Scripture as the OP asked. Please.
    How can you stick with scriptures when we are dealing with the history of the NT church. You have to look at church history for NT church which is the stand with RCC and Rome. Besides that, I gave you a scripture about the city being destroyed not to be any longer and you did not even respond to that scripture because you know Jerusalem doesn't fit because of it. You just seem to have an issue with Jude and refuse to look at NT history.

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    Iíve started this thread to discuss the identity of the great harlot. Or Babylon the great as described in the book of Revelation.

    Particularly for those who believe the RCC or Rome is the harlot spoken of in Rev 17 & 18. Here is your chance to explain ďscripturally why you hold that position. Warning we are stressing scripturally.

    Anyone else who wishes to submit their position is more than welcome to do so.

    I am urging everyone to stay on topic. Donít derail the thread. And letís discuss this with open minds to seriously consider the plausibility of each otherís views.

    As a mod I will be watching closely for derailments and attitudes needing adjustments. I want to remind everyone to be courteous and respectful to each other since no one has all the answers. But mine do happen to be closer to the truth than anyone else.

    With that said Ö. Into the fray!

    Iíve watched many of these threads discussing the ID of the Great Harlot and the many different opinions of which country, city or religion (Rome , Jerusalem, RCC, Islam, etc.) is being depicted by that Great Harlot.

    By the way opinion means: a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something: what someone thinks about a particular thing. As opposed to truth meaning: the real facts about something: the things that are true: the quality or state of being true: a statement or idea that is true. ďOpinionĒ does not equal ďtruthĒ.

    Iím no different and I have my ďopinionĒ (defined as mentioned above) just like everyone else. I have been considering joining in these discussions but have decided for the most it would be better to simply watch and see what others have to say before I put my own plug nickel into the pot and show my hand if motivated to do so.

    The main problem I see in most of the opinions presented is although all of them may fit some verses or criteria describing the harlot in Revelation 17 and 18 none of them in my opinion fit all of them. The truth is whoever or whatever the harlot is supposed to represent must meet or fulfill all of them . And so far, no theory has accounted for ďALLĒ the descriptions she must scripturally meet.

    So with that, let me throw out an additional possibility for yíall to consider. I will muddy the waters and a bit more if you will allow me to do so. Iím just putting this out for you to consider Ö nothing more.

    When I began looking into this topic years ago. I started by doing a little research regarding the definition of harlotry. For the most part we (human) define it as forms of sexual activities outside of Godís boundaries of such. But I wanted to see how God defined it and in what contexts or situations He applied the term to.

    After looking into it Iíve come to the conclusion the Great Harlot is mankind.

    as far back as 1330 it meant A vagabond, beggar, rogue, rascal, villain, low fellow, knave. In later use (16Ė17th c.), sometimes a man of loose life, a fornicator; also, often, a mere term of opprobrium or insult

    also 2. An itinerant jester, buffoon, or juggler; one who tells or does something to raise a laugh.

    and 3. Applied to a male servant or attendant; a menial: cf. knave, in similar use.


    so one must understand why the use of the word harlot when KJV was translated. not e no mention of a description of a female as a definition until 1882


    thing is, opinions mean nothing, the truth of the matter does. so are you seeking the truth of the matter, or scanning for opinions that meet yours?
    Let there be Light

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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Why can't Jerusalem and Israel be a type and shadow for the NT church?
    As I see it, they both are “types” of the Church.

    The "OLD Jerusalem" was the physical one that was destroyed in 70 AD. It happened in Rev. 17-18. Immediately it was replaced by the New Jerusalem described in Rev. 21-22.
    Consistent Literalism continually misinterpret it has "Heaven" or the Eternal state, something exclusively future.

    However the Reformed pointed out that it cannot be Heaven because there was too much in it that was not future. It this city also described as "the Bride of Christ." (Rev. 21: 10) How can a City be also a Bride? Because it was not a literal city but was the Bride of Christ, the Church. That is present, not only future.

    So both represent the Church, a spiritual body, the New Covenant People of God.

    The physical was first (a type), then the spiritual came, in Christ.

    Spiritual truth: " However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. " 1 Corinthians 15: 46 - Paul
    ďAĒ cannot be ďAĒ & not ďAĒ at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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